I do not want to see people get gear because they have a level 50 companion carrying them.

 

I thought you don't care about what other players do and wear.

 

I am pretty sure that if I were to make a fleet pug (talking DM here) that we would still clear. People know names, if they see someone they know make a raid they are much more likely to join because reputation means more than anything else in raiding.

 

This must be some raiding echo chamber. Regular players on Malgus know the name of certain augment merchant and that's pretty much it.

Edited August 16, 2022 by juliushorst

I thought you don't care about what other players do and wear.

 

I do not. Realistically speaking I will always be able to get to the max gear score, I just think you shouldn't expect gear donations. Especially now that everybody CAN have 330 without any major problems, the exact gear you people wanted for months and now it's not good enough? Weird. It's almost like gear didn't make the difference after all.

 

This must be some raiding echo chamber. Regular players on Malgus know the name of certain augment merchant and that's pretty much it.

 

Why would I care about regular players, I meant NiM raiders, I also made that very clear.

This is their copy paste sale list from the sales discord:

 

sales discord?

Why shouldn't many people be able to get 340 gear? It would make raiding a joke, why in the world you I do R-4 HM 13 times when I can solo MM chapters, or do heroics, or ranked, or regs or anything not requiring a group instead? Then the new content delivered would be only a new GS again, then what does the OP give? A title? A mount? Yeah nah I'll do mark of mastery, wait for NiM and then get the wings from ther instead of farming a low drop chance. Sounds quite unfair to me, the current system gives you the gear you need, if done smart even more. I do not know what gear you need, bioware does, they made the gear, they said "Yes, 326 is enough for PvP", they said "well raiding requires a group so lets make it 330" and they also said "326 for conquest is a nice bonus to the other two systems" - other wise they would've changed it.

 

Now you've finally unmasked yourself. You don't raid for fun, you go raiding to get something that puts you above the rest. We all know that from other games with those elitists in their bubble. You said it yourself, you wouldn't go raiding if you didn't get the new gear (which you pretty much repeat three times in every post that nobody needs at all) exclusively for NiM raiders.

 

I don't want to be mean, but when you have to rise above others in a game to have fun, there seems to be something wrong with you mentally. I very rarely experience something like this in real life (e.g. sports), but it happens frequently in MMORPGs, mostly with hardcore PvP players or elite raiders.

But when all the casuals are gone, those people start whining: "Mimimi, PvP is dead.", "Mimimi, the game is dead". That may be true, but it is precisely the whiners who usually had a significant part in the resulting situation.

 

As a counterexample, I raid to have fun with other people, not to get anything. The best raid time for me was also with 6.x - absolutely everyone had almost the same gear - perfect conditions for raiding in my opinion.

I do not. Realistically speaking I will always be able to get to the max gear score, I just think you shouldn't expect gear donations. Especially now that everybody CAN have 330 without any major problems, the exact gear you people wanted for months and now it's not good enough? Weird. It's almost like gear didn't make the difference after all.

 

I don't complain about item rating, I complain about scaling. If they give me gear called "Filthy Rags of Lowsome Casual" with ugliest model possible and item rating of 1 but that gives me a buff in the open world scaled content that'll make me as powerful as in 6.0, or even better in 4.0 I'll cease all my complains.

I can even go through the hoops of getting 330s to unlock it.

Now you've finally unmasked yourself. You don't raid for fun, you go raiding to get something that puts you above the rest. We all know that from other games with those elitists in their bubble. You said it yourself, you wouldn't go raiding if you didn't get the new gear (which you pretty much repeat three times in every post that nobody needs at all) exclusively for NiM raiders.

 

I don't want to be mean, but when you have to rise above others in a game to have fun, there seems to be something wrong with you mentally. I very rarely experience something like this in real life (e.g. sports), but it happens frequently in MMORPGs, mostly with hardcore PvP players or elite raiders.

But when all the casuals are gone, those people start whining: "Mimimi, PvP is dead.", "Mimimi, the game is dead". That may be true, but it is precisely the whiners who usually had a significant part in the resulting situation.

 

As a counterexample, I raid to have fun with other people, not to get anything. The best raid time for me was also with 6.x - absolutely everyone had almost the same gear - perfect conditions for raiding in my opinion.

 

Do I even have to respond? Is this a joke? In 6.0 you liked raiding because of veteran edge stacks, you liked it because it was giga easy, the HP nerf put it close to 6.0 conditions in terms of damage needed.

 

Yes, it does feel rewarding if you get stuff from a raid that you don't just vendor, but that is obviously just a bonus otherwise I'd have stopped raiding ages ago or do I need to prove that, because I really don't want to...

 

When did gear get the requirement to do the new raid? Get your pre-raid BiS and d the raid, or don't.

Fact is that you really have no grounds to complain, you got an easier way to 330. You can now be 330! But now that other people get rewards you can't get cuz you aren't good enough you have to complain again. Just get the 330s and be happy, was enough to clear anything pre-nerf so post nerf it's even easier.

 

Mad cuz bad, what can I say.

To me it is very much a pug, especially the ones on NA I joined where I literally knew nobody from prior experience. The ones on DM were also pretty much pugs with at most 2 people from one team and the ones on Tulak were with people from 3 seperate teams, but the community there is way smaller so it's either that or transfer to a higher pop server.

 

I am pretty sure that if I were to make a fleet pug (talking DM here) that we would still clear. People know names, if they see someone they know make a raid they are much more likely to join because reputation means more than anything else in raiding. There is nothing I can do to prevent this, I could make a Queen SM pug and the group would have at least 4 people with 90%+ OPs even though I asked on fleet. I know that that is not the experience the normal players have, but this is what qualifies as a pug to me, because I cannot make a true pug - I have tried, I cannot.

Nevermind that the requirement to get an invite would be IPCPT HM achievement, I don't think it would be hard to do "a true pug", it's not my fault players know me and that I know them. I'd be amazed to find 7 more players I've never heard of with an IPCPT achievement.

 

But everybody saying how it's not a pug wasn't really my point anyway. I see this as win.

 

 

So you don't live in the same reality with the rest of us. Just because you have your own special definition for the term "pug", doesn't make it a pug group. Defining something differenty to support your personal agenda does not make it truthful. It's still a lie. If you keep claiming it's not you are also lying to yourself, not just the community.

 

 

Let me try to clarify it for you one more time, so that next time you use the word pug, you don't have to be ignorant about it:

 

- Raiding with friends or people you or one of your friends already knows is not pugging. It's called "making raid" in this reality.

- Raiding with randoms from fleet is pugging. This included public callouts on fleet such as "LFM R-4 HM".

Now you've finally unmasked yourself. You don't raid for fun, you go raiding to get something that puts you above the rest. We all know that from other games with those elitists in their bubble. You said it yourself, you wouldn't go raiding if you didn't get the new gear (which you pretty much repeat three times in every post that nobody needs at all) exclusively for NiM raiders.

 

I don't want to be mean, but when you have to rise above others in a game to have fun, there seems to be something wrong with you mentally. I very rarely experience something like this in real life (e.g. sports), but it happens frequently in MMORPGs, mostly with hardcore PvP players or elite raiders.

But when all the casuals are gone, those people start whining: "Mimimi, PvP is dead.", "Mimimi, the game is dead". That may be true, but it is precisely the whiners who usually had a significant part in the resulting situation.

 

As a counterexample, I raid to have fun with other people, not to get anything. The best raid time for me was also with 6.x - absolutely everyone had almost the same gear - perfect conditions for raiding in my opinion.

 

That's what bullies typically do. He doesn't raid for fun, and he doesn't like the rest of us doing it either.

So you don't live in the same reality with the rest of us. Just because you have your own special definition for the term "pug", doesn't make it a pug group. Defining something differenty to support your personal agenda does not make it truthful. It's still a lie. If you keep claiming it's not you are also lying to yourself, not just the community.

 

 

Let me try to clarify it for you one more time, so that next time you use the word pug, you don't have to be ignorant about it:

 

- Raiding with friends or people you or one of your friends already knows is not pugging. It's called "making raid" in this reality.

- Raiding with randoms from fleet is pugging. This included public callouts on fleet such as "LFM R-4 HM".

 

To me anything is a pug that isn't a set raiding team. I can see how you disagree and honestly since there is nothing I can do to change my situation I'm fine with you saying that I'm wrong. Nevertheless I'll do a R-4 HM pug with only asking on fleet later. Does that meet your requirements?

That's what bullies typically do. He doesn't raid for fun, and he doesn't like the rest of us doing it either.

 

Yep, I only raid to bully people I never even interact with. I jerk of to beating some kid that got his Dread Guard HM achievement in parse and I probably push old people too.

 

I raid for fun, the gear is just a bonus. A bonus not needed, but nice to have.

To me anything is a pug that isn't a set raiding team. I can see how you disagree and honestly since there is nothing I can do to change my situation I'm fine with you saying that I'm wrong. Nevertheless I'll do a R-4 HM pug with only asking on fleet later. Does that meet your requirements?

 

And again, that's only in your reality. The rest of us don't share your reality. Arguing from your personal reality doesn't make anything you say truthful.

Yep, I only raid to bully people I never even interact with. I jerk of to beating some kid that got his Dread Guard HM achievement in parse and I probably push old people too.

 

I raid for fun, the gear is just a bonus. A bonus not needed, but nice to have.

 

You know it's ok that you only care about yourself. I prefer to care about more than just myself though, and that's why I disagree with the current gearing system.

 

For example, I played today with a person playing lighting sorc in 331 blue gear with blue augs that parsed 15,186 on Dash'Roode and I want that person to have better gear. In other raids I have been paired with people in full 330 gear with gold augs, and some only did 10 to 15k on dummy parse bosses like Nefra. I want them to have better gear too.

 

I don't think that only people who are already capable of doing and clearing nim ops should have the best gear. I think all people of all skill levels should have it, and that's why I will always disagree with the current system.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Exly

You know it's ok that you only care about yourself. I prefer to care about more than just myself though, and that's why I disagree with the current gearing system.

 

For example, I played today with a person playing lighting sorc in 331 blue gear with blue augs that parsed 15,186 on Dash'Roode and I want that person to have better gear. In other raids I have been paired with people in full 330 gear with gold augs, and some only did 10 to 15k on dummy parse bosses like Nefra. I want them to have better gear too.

 

I don't think that only people who are already capable of doing and clearing nim ops should have the best gear. I think all people of all skill levels should have it, and that's why I will always disagree with the current system.

 

How? How do you do so little damage and expect anything. That DPS isn't good enough to clear anything other than first bosses. Gear won't help that number go up. Why was he there to begin with?

 

Like this what I am talking about, not only will him having EQUAL gear at best not change him not knowing how to play, but then there will also be no reason for him to try. He already has gear, he clearly doesn't know whats going on. He knows you won't clear with him, he knows the boss cannot drop anything that is of use to him, he is just... lost. Like even if he has one or two 328s he could do KP/EV for more value - he clearly isn't there for fun because he is 95% clicking and probably dead on teleport two.

 

So lets sum up, he doesn't understand the gearing, he is... respectuflly: bad, he doesn't raid very often, and he never tried improving aside from getting more gear. And now he wants 340? For doing what? Less damage than Shae Vizla?

 

And then he probably wants to join harder fights because he has the gear now and then the "how am I going to get the achievement if it is required to join everytime" argument.

 

To someone doing 15k I have nothing to say. Explaining a fight to someone like this is nothibg but a waste of time, explaining a fight to a multi 1500 PvPer with 0% OPs wouldn't be a waste of time because they don't know whats going on either, but at least they have a keyboard and they look on the screen - one of the two and probably both aren't the case with the clicking PvE guy in 330s pulling 15k malding why he can't have 340 and how in 340s he would do 31k at least. Just stop wasting my time, if someone like this asks for advice the only advice I can give is keybinds are parsely.io

And again, that's only in your reality. The rest of us don't share your reality. Arguing from your personal reality doesn't make anything you say truthful.

 

I was trying to say that I didn't mean to deceive. I realize that that is the case, but please realize that if that is the case I cannot make a pug.

As I have always understood it, PUG refers to groups created via Group Finder. 4, or 8, people in the queue randomly selected for a group activity. (Also via fleet chat "anyone want to do go xxx" ) added via edit

 

Pre-Mades are specific groups of people, or partial groups of people, teaming up for group content.

 

I'm fairly certain those are the standard / accepted descriptions for PVP.

Why wouldn't it be the same for PVE...and I presume that it is the same for PVE, but in case anyone thinks it isn't....why?

Edited August 17, 2022 by Darev

Bioware doesn't care about that 95% of the player base. They don't at all. You are getting replies from people saying "Why do you need 340?" or "yOu DoN't NeEd It". Those people genuinely are so tone deaf to how the majority of the base feels about this update that they're living in an echo chamber. The reality is this new operation was meant to be PLAYED AND CLEARED BY THE ENTIRETY OF THE PLAYERBASE. It's why Bioware made such a big deal about it. If only 5% of the players are clearing R4 HM then who is Bioware aiming this content toward? The 5%? If that's the case. Then the 95% need to cancel subs and let Bioware bleed money cause we came from 6.X which allowed any and everyone to grind for max rating by playing ANY and I mean ANY content. They go from that incredibly friendly system straight to a casual hostile, toxic and elitist mindset gearing system. I have cleared R-4 SM. It is doable when people learn it. But when you want to do HM R-4. First off if you can even find a group. It is so over tuned and so unforgiving that after 4 hours of wasting your life on the first boss. You will want to put your fist through a wall. You will never pug R-4 period. Which means Bioware made an operation that will be hated and likely ignored by 95% of the player base. The only people clearing R-4 HM like you said is those annoying exclusive little NiM raiding group clicks who think every player who hasn't cleared NiM before are beneath them. I truly hope Bioware hurts badly after 7.0 and 7.1. I want them to. It's the only way they will learn. The people who say "You don't need" something immediately loses all respect and credibility in my eyes.

All that changed for many players is the path to 330 got easier which is, I hope we can all agree, just an improvement. The content didn't change at all, the 330 mod gear is the same as the 330 rakata. R-4 gear is significantly better than rakata gear, there is no way around it and even the pure fact you don't have to use accuracy augments in full gear is a huge gain, a gain not needed, a gain into overgear. You do NOT NEED 340, nobody does. You can (probably) clear all operations in 330 and all (but one, but it got nerfed now) have been cleared PRE-NERF. I do not see any reason for a normal player to want or care about 340 gear, it is just that far out of reach it might not even exist. No team will decline you for not being 339 GS, which is quite honestly the only reason I can think of why normal players would care, all that changed for the large majority is that you can aquire more and infinite 330 gear - whuch is already, factually, overgear for solo content.

 

Then what do you think should reward a piece of 340 gear? 3 Million conquest points on one toon? Clearing a specific MM chapter solo, lets say Chapter 1 of Kotfe seems like the fair point for me. Many many people still won't be able to get that gear, but now there is chance to do it solo? Which is all your asking for right? In guilds like Ashla you aren't even Top10 with 3 million conquest points. The problem is that outside of soloing MM kotfe chapters there is not a realistic chance for solo content that is solo-able and group content. Solo content is easy, ridiculously easy in fact. It should not EVER reward Top level gier without a grind, like 3 million conquest points, or the honestly unrealistic expactation that people who complain about gearing stand a chance vs kotfe chapter 1. Everything else could be solod by your companion, I do not want to see people get gear because they have a level 50 companion carrying them.

 

Why shouldn't many people be able to get 340 gear? It would make raiding a joke, why in the world you I do R-4 HM 13 times when I can solo MM chapters, or do heroics, or ranked, or regs or anything not requiring a group instead? Then the new content delivered would be only a new GS again, then what does the OP give? A title? A mount? Yeah nah I'll do mark of mastery, wait for NiM and then get the wings from ther instead of farming a low drop chance. Sounds quite unfair to me, the current system gives you the gear you need, if done smart even more. I do not know what gear you need, bioware does, they made the gear, they said "Yes, 326 is enough for PvP", they said "well raiding requires a group so lets make it 330" and they also said "326 for conquest is a nice bonus to the other two systems" - other wise they would've changed it.

 

That right there. See then that would mean that 7.1 and R-4 was only aimed at the NiM community. To say that "nobody needs 340 gear" basically means that besides mods and 330 green and blue. That the entire operation in this update is pointless if you already got 330 gear and nobody should bother playing it cause unless you do HM, you will never progress. HM being impossible for 95% of the player base to clear right now. See how ridiculous you sound? To say "You don't need it" is one of the weakest arguments I have ever heard.

HM being impossible for 95% of the player base to clear right now. .

 

Having very limited resources and pumping them into something that's appealing to 5% of your customer base sounds like the worst business strategy you can imagine.

My problem is not the fact that they made NiM OPS they should make finger busting content for the people who play it. My problem is that the way they've scaled the game and gated progression punishes the rest of us. That is wrong. NiM Raiders and Ranked PvP players deserve content what should not happen is that they get everything and we get scraps.

As for the initial title of the thread, if you want to nitpick 6.0 mindless Hammerstation farming made even more than 95% of the game obsolete.

 

My problem is not the fact that they made NiM OPS they should make finger busting content for the people who play it. My problem is that the way they've scaled the game and gated progression punishes the rest of us. That is wrong. NiM Raiders and Ranked PvP players deserve content what should not happen is that they get everything and we get scraps.

 

Yet how does it punish you? With the new patch 330 gear is available to everyone without having to step into NIM ops, all old Ops in all diffiulty levels were nerfed significantly too. So please explain where exactly do you feel punished?

The game outside of Ops did not change, so stuff formerly possible in 326 is still the same and the only advantage 330+ might give there is a tiny tiny bit of time saved and that only where level sync doesn't cap the stats in the first place.

What class you play has way more effect though, I could do Belsavis Imp H2s with my sorc healer or with my assassin tank, the latter only has to fight a handful of enemies due to stealth and thus is way faster with or without max rating gear. Doing it with a DPS stealth class is even faster.

 

In general, new content bringing new gear is pretty standard for even single player games, it occurs with every expansion, often making getting the 'older' gear easier too at the same time to enable the players to quickly start into the new content. In Swtor it happens either in form of actual new gear pieces or sometimes just new augments, the principle though is the same.

With R4 it comes down to do you enjoy playing ops or do you not, if not, just do what you did before it was released and have fun playing the rest of the game. If you enjoy ops, have fun progressing new boss mechanics.

 

Given what little boost the higher gear levels give in any level synced content personally I don't really understand the drama, class, role or even just crit luck has more effect than a gear rating of ten points more or less. The sync generally makes gear almost obsolete in large parts of the game so why stressing yourself instead of simply having fun and enjoying your playtime. Why bother with Ops stuff if you don't want to play them anyway. Even in FPs, knowing how to play your class and/or the boss mechanics pretty much always trumps gear levels as long you don't run around in stuff for five or ten character levels lower than your character actually is.

Ever since level sync and then capping stat in PVP, gear doesn't really matter much in SWTOR except for ops (that have no stat caps), once you are past the gear rating the stuff you do is scaled for, there just is the juicy carrot left dangling in front of you, but it doesn't have that much of an effect, it's mostly just shiny orange paint rather than a tasty vegetable.

 

Now if the scaling is badly balanced, that should be fixed of course, though gear ratings have little to do with that, if content is supposed to be scaled to 318, 326 or whatever, it should be scaled to exactly that stat budget and not with 'oh they'll get better gear anyway' in the back of the mind.

Down the line though, with the next content and gear update there will be another catchup opportunity in place to the current max rating stuff, just like Hyde and Zeek now. So all you need to do is play the game how you want and get things once they are in easy reach.

My problem is not the fact that they made NiM OPS they should make finger busting content for the people who play it. My problem is that the way they've scaled the game and gated progression punishes the rest of us. That is wrong. NiM Raiders and Ranked PvP players deserve content what should not happen is that they get everything and we get scraps.

 

I couldn't agree more! But you didn't just get scraps, gear IS NOT content. Content is content. Bioware has said it many times. The patches have the priority AND order of:

X.0 Patch -> Story, overall changes, QoL, etc.

X.1 Patch -> PvE

X.2 Patch -> PvP

 

You can want more story in the X.1 and X.2 patches, but you should not expect it. I realize you feel like the casual player base got ignored in the latest patch but in reality you guys already got the content you like, quantity is very debatable, it's not a lot and should've been more - but well, blame bioware, not the raiders, not the PvPers. We got 1 operation in 2 modes with 4 bosses, the PvPers don't even have a season since 7.0! There is straight up no reason for a ranked player to play since they can't even get a ranking right now.

 

The problem many people have is scaling, they used to do a lot of content and they had BiS gear. Now the content is slowers, feels worse etc. and they don't have gear. So the conclusion they will draw is that this is because they cannot have BiS anymore, even though this is false and it's actually just the removal of VE stacks - but casuals cannot really know that. So they go on the forums complain about toxic elitist raiders who need more gear to feed their ego, when in reality raiders didn't wish for this either. What is actually going on is that harder content rewards higher gear, it's not a new concept. If you agree or disagree with the philosophies behind this doesn't matter to me honestly, but at the very least it is not unfair.

 

The problem with the forums is that... it's anonymous. You do not know how much experience or game knowledge the person you are talking to has, if you try to prove it it's either a weird flex or you get called an elitist immediately. I am one. I cannot deny it. I have no idea the problems casuals face in everyday play, but slower content progression because a lack of gear isn't one of them.

As for the initial title of the thread, if you want to nitpick 6.0 mindless Hammerstation farming made even more than 95% of the game obsolete.

 

This can lead us to only one conclusion: many people enjoyed farming HS and TC more than they enjoy doing NiM raids BW doesn't know their audience.

Mind you, I have no problem with people who enjoy hard raids. What I have a problem with is that the devs adapted this mentality of harder = better and implemented it in other areas of the game.

 

X.0 Patch -> Story, overall changes, QoL, etc.

 

Thing is, some of their changes decreased quality of life for many players (for me: changes done to scaling and to conquest make the game much less enjoyable)

 

I cannot deny it. I have no idea the problems casuals face in everyday play, but slower content progression because a lack of gear isn't one of them.

 

I must agree, unfortunately. There is pretty much no difference between doing open world stuff in green 326s and blue 330s.

Gear does very much matter for people who do operations. Higher gear can give you enough of an edge to overcome deficiencies that would allow you to beat something that you can't do with less gear. It's that cushion that people who are not the best need in order to be successful. "Getting gud" is just something not everyone can do.

 

Gear for everyone should be equal, so that it's about doing something that matters to you, not what you get from it. If everyone has equal gear, no can complain about not having it. At that point, it's all about ability and desire. Take gear out of the equation and people will be happy again.

 

Since 7 came out, there has been nothing but complaint after complaint. Make life easier for everyone and the complaints will go away.

 

If the "get gudders" want to leave, then fine. The vast majority of us are just fine with it. What will happen is there will be so much complaining that things will get easier with time again until most people are content again. Actually, i wholeheartedly invite you to leave. It has other benefits i shan't go into at this time.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Chryptyk

As for the initial title of the thread, if you want to nitpick 6.0 mindless Hammerstation farming made even more than 95% of the game obsolete.

 

Nothing can be more far from the truth dude. Did you not know of the Renown system? Where you level up renown just by playing story, doing conquest, flashpoints and operations and you would get upgrades via Renown on top of the upgrades and gear you'd get from ALL the content. Then you could use frags to get a free upgrade from the Spoils of War vendor. That was the most diverse and friendliest gear systems this game has ever had. Nothing was out of reach to the entire player base.

Edited August 19, 2022 by ReveredDead

Gear does very much matter for people who do operations. Higher gear can give you enough of an edge to overcome deficiencies that would allow you to beat something that you can't do with less gear. It's that cushion that people who are not the best need in order to be successful. "Getting gud" is just something not everyone can do.

 

Gear for everyone should be equal, so that it's about doing something that matters to you, not what you get from it. If everyone has equal gear, no can complain about not having it. At that point, it's all about ability and desire. Take gear out of the equation and people will be happy again.

 

Since 7 came out, there has been nothing but complaint after complaint. Make life easier for everyone and the complaints will go away.

 

If the "get gudders" want to leave, then fine. The vast majority of us are just fine with it. What will happen is there will be so much complaining that things will get easier with time again until most people are content again. Actually, i wholeheartedly invite you to leave. It has other benefits i shan't go into at this time.

 

The whole "Git Gud" mindset is why people look at the NiM community in disgust. It's why we hate this entire update cause it pushes us to deal with them if we want to get better gear. Something that didn't exist for 3 years under 6.X. The NiM community was in their own little hole. Now with 7.X, if you want 340. Better hope a NiM group carry's you in HM R-4 for veteran tokens. Or else you'll never clear it. It cannot be pugged or Pre-made. Period.