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Video Analysis


Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
06.11.2021 , 07:58 PM | #21
Thanks, I loved the analysis. I think I've watched it 4 times now, and took notes.

It's great to see a match from someone else's point of view, who doesn't know what you were thinking in making a build, or in flying it. It's a great opportunity to learn ways to re-think what you're doing.

I went and promptly changed my build. I ditched Wingman, for Concentrated Fire, swapped to LLCs with crit instead of arc, ditched regen thrusters for speed thrusters, and though I probably should have strictly speaking dumped Power Dive for Barrel roll, as a concession to 5.5 missile mechanics changes I kept Power Dive.

Then I got a Lost Shipyards TDM, got half as many kills, flew into terrain 2 or 3 times more, and did 20k less damage in the course of losing the match.

It was fantastic!

I did also stay in the fight a lot more, was more devious in LOS vs cooldown juggling, managed range better when attacking or overshooting, scooped up 2 or 3 DOs, and probably contributed significantly to keeping two gunships away from the top of the scoreboard. Based on number of people who chased me after the second DO pickup I may have also encouraged team communication on the other team. Either that or I was just too far out from the rest of my team, which is distinctly possible since I was hitting their gunships from the side or even behind at that point. Oh, and despite all the seemingly insane choices listed above, my accuracy did increase to 55%, which is not too shabby for a combo of a rapid firing short range cannon and Pods.

It was pretty crappy flying on my part, but that's typical for me when I've significantly changed a build and am working on trying to consciously change my flying style.

About the builds.
They are classic boom and zoom gunship-killer build variants that date back to just after SWTOR update 2.6 in 2014. The commentary made me notice some things there:
  • High pressure high skill gunship walls are scarce these days, hanging around out in the open isn't as suicidal as it used to be. This means there's time to chase targets in the open for more than a second or two.
  • The initial build wasn't fully optimized for a traditional hit and run or for a more current turn fight.
  • I wasn't flying either style properly, but a weird mix.
  • In 5.5 they buffed the snot out of RFLs and LLCs, and then buffed LLCs some more, time to reconsider LCs perhaps given that they weren't really buffed?

Despite your comments, the builds are traditionally considered more of a jousting style than a turn fight build, hence the lack of turning upgrades anywhere and the presence of Pods which are sort of abysmal for turn fights no matter how much accuracy and arc you slap on them. It's meant for a straight in perfectly centered attack run on a target that's not maneuvering laterally or vertically. The underlying assumption is that you have a couple of seconds to close from outside railgun range to cannon range, a second or two to burst DPS, and a few seconds (if you're lucky) to get out of range of the other 6 gunships. Ideally you don't need arc because the target is stationary in the firing circle and hasn't popped D-field, but do want CF for a high crit rate or maybe Bypass for a kill via piercing damage. Of course, if they do pop D-field, then you really wish you had stuck with either Wingman or Running Interference, so pick your poison. The early shooting plays into this as well. With a skilled GS as a target, there's the trade-off of whether to shoot early and go for at least a few hits before they run, or hold fire for better range to maul them badly or make a kill if they're a bit slow to move.

In my subsequent disaster of a match I found that I'm horrendously out of practice in flying the purist version of that style, even if I lean into the build and optimize it for the intended purpose a bit more, and fly more on style for it.

In the review match I was flying a lot more like a BLC-clusters scout should, but without the BLC or the clusters, and if I had really properly embraced that style as your advice suggested, it should have turned it into a game with kills in the 25-35 range. Especially if I had swapped to flying a BLC build. Part of the reason I picked that game is that I knew it was decent flying, but that there was plenty of headroom for better performance too, and wanted a fresh set of eyes looking at where to find that better performance.

Overall I'm feeling rather inspired by it. Encouraged to mind the little details, to adapt to the current match a bit more, to dig out a BLC-clusters scout for TDMs on at least one or two of my alts, and to fly a bit closer to my skill limit even in farm games.

I'll certainly continue to do strange things like fly antiquated builds from bygone eras, and deliberately throw away extra arc and maybe even Wingman on builds that are truly punishing with tracking penalties (I might have ulterior motives related to practicing discipline in centering shots), but I've been encouraged to think about how I can be a more dangerous GSF pilot even while doing that stuff.

I encourage you to continue doing video reviews, if you like doing them that is, even if Drako picks up doing them again as well. No two pilots see things exactly the same way, and even knowing the same things, might point out different details, so I think there's value in your reviews regardless of who else might be doing them. There's also value in encouraging activity and communication inside the GSF community as a way to help inspire other pilots, whatever their skill level.

It's also nice to be reminded the extent to which an old pilot can still be learning and improving. The 23% jump in accuracy was, as you might expect not entirely a result of watching one review video a few times. I'd credit that mostly to having recently finished off the last of my GSF achievements, most of which involved Gunship related stuff. Some of that credit does go to you though. At the time you were singing the praises of gunships in some thread here, and that did help inspire me to work on railgun mechanics in a meaningful way rather than purely Ion AOE spamming my way to the accuracy achievement. The pleasant bonus was that practicing the discipline of centering Slug shots resulted in accuracy in all non-gunships for me increasing by about 15 to 18%. Going for GOOD shots instead of for any shots. It didn't make me a gunship fan, but it was overall a positive experience, and eroded my distaste for gunship play enough that I do occasionally take them out for a change of pace now and not solely when my team is in dire need of Ion Railgun support.

Thanks again.

Who knows, maybe after I've indulged in a scout phase for a bit longer I'll pester you with a GS review request.


**Oh, by the way, during my views of your video I paused to look for some videos of Nemarus, who was a true master of the gunship-killer build and style. Didn't find any, but during the search I did stumble across the GSF school videos, which is how I remembered the reference in the other thread.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
06.12.2021 , 02:16 AM | #22
This was a fascinating read, I have so many things to say, so I am going to insert my comments within yours as italic and colored.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
Thanks, I loved the analysis. I think I've watched it 4 times now, and took notes.
This is great to hear. I hope I kept it simple enough.

It's great to see a match from someone else's point of view, who doesn't know what you were thinking in making a build, or in flying it. It's a great opportunity to learn ways to re-think what you're doing. I think you achieve a certain level of experience where you can second guess most of the time what someone is thinking, but for sure, that's not always true. Drakolich sometimes asked me what I was thinking at certain times. Fresh eyes, different perspective for sure helps.

I went and promptly changed my build. I ditched Wingman, for Concentrated Fire, swapped to LLCs with crit instead of arc, ditched regen thrusters for speed thrusters, and though I probably should have strictly speaking dumped Power Dive for Barrel roll, as a concession to 5.5 missile mechanics changes I kept Power Dive. It's great that you are playing with builds again. Personally I would pick Wingman for LLC. CF works well with BLC because of its big hit nature. Also I always stick wtih arc and tracking, unless you are making a pure jousting build. But regardless, I encourage playing with builds. Its how we learn what we like and what is good.

Then I got a Lost Shipyards TDM, got half as many kills, flew into terrain 2 or 3 times more, and did 20k less damage in the course of losing the match. It was fantastic! Me all over. I don't consider myself to be a particularly naturally gifted pilot. I just work hard, and analyse myself. Any time I changed builds or ships I would take a massive step backward. Even not so long ago when Invis asked me to trade Retros for P-dive in Battle Scout. I was immediately nerfed for a while. Less so now, because I have arrived at a point where I've flown most ships and builds extensively. But for sure I totally get this. It will make you better, because you are willing to push your comfort zone, which by far most pilots don't. That is why most pilots in GSF become average in one ship and never fly anything else.


I did also stay in the fight a lot more, was more devious in LOS vs cooldown juggling, managed range better when attacking or overshooting, scooped up 2 or 3 DOs, and probably contributed significantly to keeping two gunships away from the top of the scoreboard. Based on number of people who chased me after the second DO pickup I may have also encouraged team communication on the other team. Either that or I was just too far out from the rest of my team, which is distinctly possible since I was hitting their gunships from the side or even behind at that point. Oh, and despite all the seemingly insane choices listed above, my accuracy did increase to 55%, which is not too shabby for a combo of a rapid firing short range cannon and Pods. 55% accuracy in a Scout with pods is not too shabby at all. One thing I meant to mention in the video was that I would like to see you get over 45% consistently in your Scout, and that you would do it by not spamming laser fire at 4k range. So, seems like it took you all of one match to do this. Great job

It was pretty crappy flying on my part, but that's typical for me when I've significantly changed a build and am working on trying to consciously change my flying style.

About the builds.
They are classic boom and zoom gunship-killer build variants that date back to just after SWTOR update 2.6 in 2014. The commentary made me notice some things there:
  • High pressure high skill gunship walls are scarce these days, hanging around out in the open isn't as suicidal as it used to be. This means there's time to chase targets in the open for more than a second or two.
  • The initial build wasn't fully optimized for a traditional hit and run or for a more current turn fight.
  • I wasn't flying either style properly, but a weird mix.
  • In 5.5 they buffed the snot out of RFLs and LLCs, and then buffed LLCs some more, time to reconsider LCs perhaps given that they weren't really buffed?
This was fascinating to me. I am born of the Strike era. I started in 5.10, which wasn't all that long after 5.5. So my mentality is that of a current meta player. Albeit one that likes to experiment and push the boundaries of conventional wisdom. There are definitely still things about the pre5.5 meta I do not know, or did not know. And even if I know on paper what the meta was, I never flew it, so I don't have that valuable experience. For sure I can see the point of your build in the video for chasing Gunship walls. That would make sense. I hadn't considered that. But you are right, we do not get many good Gunship walls these days.

Despite your comments, the builds are traditionally considered more of a jousting style than a turn fight build, hence the lack of turning upgrades anywhere and the presence of Pods which are sort of abysmal for turn fights no matter how much accuracy and arc you slap on them. It's meant for a straight in perfectly centered attack run on a target that's not maneuvering laterally or vertically. The underlying assumption is that you have a couple of seconds to close from outside railgun range to cannon range, a second or two to burst DPS, and a few seconds (if you're lucky) to get out of range of the other 6 gunships. Ideally you don't need arc because the target is stationary in the firing circle and hasn't popped D-field, but do want CF for a high crit rate or maybe Bypass for a kill via piercing damage. Of course, if they do pop D-field, then you really wish you had stuck with either Wingman or Running Interference, so pick your poison. The early shooting plays into this as well. With a skilled GS as a target, there's the trade-off of whether to shoot early and go for at least a few hits before they run, or hold fire for better range to maul them badly or make a kill if they're a bit slow to move.
In so far as optimizing a Scout for TDM, and determining whether you want it to be a Jousting build or a turn fighter, this is something I have been playing with for some time. And I only started my 100 game Scout challenge once I had made a final decision on what I think works best. At least for me. I can certainly see how in the old meta your build was considered more of a jousting build. But, as someone born of the Strike era, if you're going to joust, you need Retro thrusters. P-dive is a turn fighting build. Sure, I still shoot noobs head on with P-dive, but you can't maximuse damage that way, as you don't have the jousting advantages of Retro. That being more time on target, more evasion during your Retro, and the ability to evade a missile but stay on target. I don't like my P-dive, max evasion, double turning Battle Scout build in TDM. I find it too limited. This is why I settled on Retro thrustrers, single turning, Regen thrusters, Reinforced armor and spanner, but kept the rest evasion stuff. You raise the question of properly committing to one style or the other. Jousting or turn fighting. But with this build I don't think you need to commit to one style or the other. It can do both. It will still out turn anything else in the match, so shooting from behind at close range is favored as that is the strength of a scout. Also it's dead fun But it can also joust really well. And sometimes, if your are facing a noob (who won't damage you much if at all) or if you are under pressure, and taking the time to attack from behind leads to you getting peeled, then that's when you can joust. Thanks to its still high amount of evasion, and damage mitigation, it can joust just fine. Clusters or pods would come down to what you see yourself doing most of, and personal preference. I run clusters in TDM because it applies pressure and forces mistakes, and an easier time chasing down evasive targets (for which I usually assume I will have DO - meaning clusters do a lot of damage) But pods, in jousts and in silent assassin kills from behind, for sure would be better. So I don't think its necessary to build a scout that commits to one style for TDM .Rather I think its better to know which style to play at any moment, and have one ship that can do both. No, its not going to beat another Scout Ace who comes at you in a dedicated turn fighter build. But, how often does that happen in TDM anyway? Usually we end up avoiding each other and farming each other's teams to try to win before the other guy. The build I use for TDM was a result of being born of the Strike meta, and thinking, how can I get a Scout to work as comfortably as my T1F in TDM. Keep playing with builds until you find something that works for you in most situations that TDM throws up. Play to the ship's strengths, and keep practicing. But know when to quit. That is know when a Scout just isn't working in TDM. Which is usually bombers protecting a few decent Gunships, Gunships walls of a decent nature, and mass bomber spams. But know that the threshold of when to stop flying a Scout in TDM, is not where most people think it is. They are more viable in TDM than a lot of old school Scout pilots turned Strike players will tell you. Sorry guys

In my subsequent disaster of a match I found that I'm horrendously out of practice in flying the purist version of that style, even if I lean into the build and optimize it for the intended purpose a bit more, and fly more on style for it. As above. Practice, and choose your build wisely. If you are determined to fly a Scout (which I praise) sometimes the match just does not let you play pursuit flying. That's when you need to be able to joust, and mitigate chip damage.The change of tactic in a ship that can do both is what opens up a lot of matches that were otherwise not viable for a Scout. As most now know Invis spars with me to try to train me. He has taken Drakolich's role as my Mentor. Nuetrinos used to coah Invis. One quote that Invis gave me, which was from Neutrinos, is "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome."

In the review match I was flying a lot more like a BLC-clusters scout should, but without the BLC or the clusters, and if I had really properly embraced that style as your advice suggested, it should have turned it into a game with kills in the 25-35 range. Agreed. 35 is a lot even for the very best scout pilots, but 20-25 for sure. That match was well suited to it, as you were not under much pressure.. Especially if I had swapped to flying a BLC build. Part of the reason I picked that game is that I knew it was decent flying, but that there was plenty of headroom for better performance too, and wanted a fresh set of eyes looking at where to find that better performance.

Overall I'm feeling rather inspired by it. Encouraged to mind the little details, to adapt to the current match a bit more, to dig out a BLC-clusters scout for TDMs on at least one or two of my alts, and to fly a bit closer to my skill limit even in farm games. Awesome

I'll certainly continue to do strange things like fly antiquated builds from bygone eras, and deliberately throw away extra arc and maybe even Wingman on builds that are truly punishing with tracking penalties (I might have ulterior motives related to practicing discipline in centering shots), but I've been encouraged to think about how I can be a more dangerous GSF pilot even while doing that stuff. Nothing wrong with that.

I encourage you to continue doing video reviews, if you like doing them that is, even if Drako picks up doing them again as well. No two pilots see things exactly the same way, and even knowing the same things, might point out different details, so I think there's value in your reviews regardless of who else might be doing them. There's also value in encouraging activity and communication inside the GSF community as a way to help inspire other pilots, whatever their skill level. Kind of you to say. I think Drakolich does peerless reviews. His knowledge is unsurpassed and he has a nice way about him. I really enjoyed training under his guidance for the time we did it. I'm just selfish, and enjoy watching his analysis videos. I watched his Yui one so many times. My gunship style was based on that video. But I am always happy to help anyone if they genuinely want it.

It's also nice to be reminded the extent to which an old pilot can still be learning and improving. The 23% jump in accuracy was, as you might expect not entirely a result of watching one review video a few times. I'd credit that mostly to having recently finished off the last of my GSF achievements, most of which involved Gunship related stuff. Some of that credit does go to you though. At the time you were singing the praises of gunships in some thread here, and that did help inspire me to work on railgun mechanics in a meaningful way rather than purely Ion AOE spamming my way to the accuracy achievement. The pleasant bonus was that practicing the discipline of centering Slug shots resulted in accuracy in all non-gunships for me increasing by about 15 to 18%. Going for GOOD shots instead of for any shots. It didn't make me a gunship fan, but it was overall a positive experience, and eroded my distaste for gunship play enough that I do occasionally take them out for a change of pace now and not solely when my team is in dire need of Ion Railgun support.

Thanks again.

Who knows, maybe after I've indulged in a scout phase for a bit longer I'll pester you with a GS review request.
Gunships are harder than people think. They are a very very effective tool, and a lot of fun when flown at a high level, but not as much fun as Scouts Still, I think any true Ace should be able to fly them well.


**Oh, by the way, during my views of your video I paused to look for some videos of Nemarus, who was a true master of the gunship-killer build and style. Didn't find any, but during the search I did stumble across the GSF school videos, which is how I remembered the reference in the other thread.
I know of him, but he was before my time. If you ever find any videos, do link them to me.
-Luc Nodaro
Link to My Youtube channel for GSF
Always happy to offer coaching / training for GSF.

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
06.12.2021 , 03:06 AM | #23
This match is a perfect example of what I am talking about in so far as how viable Scouts are in TDM and adapting them to the current meta. This match is all about controlling the other team's multiple bombers. If those bombers are allowed to nest, my team are going to feed them hard, and the game will be over. The "correct" ship to fly here is an Ion Gunship. My team has center map control, and the fight is in the spawn area of the other team, all meaning that a Gunship can wreck here. Had I played Gunship, this would've been 120k+ damage and 25+ kills quite comfortably. But I wanted to play Scout. Going after the bombers is two fold in purpose. One, if I don't take out those bombers fast, I will have to ditch the Scout and salvage the game by going GS. Two, I'm stopping my team from feeding a bomber nest. You can see that there are numerous times I tab cycle looking for a bomber, rather than going after the nearest random target. Target selection here is more important than the number of kills I make. At least as far as playing Scout is concerned. Also I don't think this is a viable match for a full traditional evasion build and Wingman, or any offensive co-pilot for that matter. The damage from the bombers is too great. Yes, I would still have mad a bunch of kills, but I also would have died a lot, and that would've lost the match, given how close the scoreline was. So the reinforced armor and Spanner, combined with focusing the bombers, are what keep me alive. In fact I don't die once. This build compared to a full evasion build is 24% passive instead of 33%, and 67% peak instead of 76%. So its still got a lot of evasion, but that armor and spanner make it so much more viable for this situation, Or eating protorps, or slugs. Also I pick up a lot of Engine Overcharges. This was one thing I learned from Invis, as I'm sure you know he discovered Iokath has an EO cluster as well as a DO cluster. Those EOs add 15% evasion to me. So I am actually at 39% passive and 82% peak. Believe that helps a lot. That is tonnes of evasion plus more health and damage mitigation / repair. Its a formidable build. It doesn't always work. Depends how good the bomber pilots are and how bad your team want to feed. But absolutely this is a match that otherwise, if not for this build, was not viable for a traditional evasion Scout, unless you don't mind dying lots and potentially losing the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EO9xu2PDDs

Btw my aim looks a bit off at times because I am currently playing with mouse settings to see if I can find anything better than what I have been running.
-Luc Nodaro
Link to My Youtube channel for GSF
Always happy to offer coaching / training for GSF.

jumay's Avatar


jumay
06.17.2021 , 06:12 PM | #24
I have been watching and learning from your channel and greatly appreciate your effort. Would you mind taking the time to go over the different ships and which are better for what circumstances. I was reading someone's post and they referred me to the post from 2014. However, it still recommends the Clarion as a healer and not a slicer. I am looking for an updated overview of the different ships to help narrow down what I want to run consistently

Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
06.18.2021 , 03:04 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by jumay View Post
I have been watching and learning from your channel and greatly appreciate your effort. Would you mind taking the time to go over the different ships and which are better for what circumstances. I was reading someone's post and they referred me to the post from 2014. However, it still recommends the Clarion as a healer and not a slicer. I am looking for an updated overview of the different ships to help narrow down what I want to run consistently
Hi Jumay, glad you are getting something from them. I did list my main 5 ship builds here with descriptions of how I use them and what I use them for.

A brief explantion would be:
For TDM my primary ship is the Tier 1 Gunship ((Quarell / Mangler). If I am being focused and I have to spend most of my time dog-fighting rather than shooting rail guns, then I will switch to the Tier 1 Strike (Starguard / Rycer) Piledriver build because it copes very well under lots of pressure.

For Domination my primary ship is the Tier 2 Scout (Flashfire / Sting) because it is the king of clearing nodes (satellites). It copes well under pressure too so it has to be quite bad for me to ditch it. Usually the reason I ditch the Scout in Domination is if there are too many bombers around. In which case I will switch to the Tier 2 Strike (Pike / Quell) in a build that works on nodes (within 5m) and go deal with them. If all hope of the win is lost and my team is vastly outmatched, then I will go Tier 1 Strike (Starguard / Rycer) or Gunship, depending on situation. SO again, if its lots of pressure then the Strike, if the other team are just camping nodes and killing anyone that comes close, then Gunship.

But as I say that is a very basic explanation of what I do and why. Let me know if you want me to go deeper, and whether you want it in video or text analysis. If you are watching my videos you'll begin to understand what I use my ships for. Pay particular attention to the ones where I switch to a different ship mid battle.
-Luc Nodaro
Link to My Youtube channel for GSF
Always happy to offer coaching / training for GSF.