What's up. Yes.

I got several times in the internet told to get Armor Pen IF I want to increase my damage on my Jedi-Shadow (Kinetic Combat). Like here: https://vulkk.com/2020/02/15/swtor-6-0-kinetic-combat-shadow-tank-pve-guide-by-ahz/#Amplifiers

However I really wondered about this, and remembering Armor wouldn't affect Force Attacks - which at least 50% of my rotation consists of (especially without a certain T3-spec, since I chose reflect)

The problem is - I asked several people ingame and in myguild - they tell me Armor doesn't indeed affect Force Attacks, and I would need Force Sensitivity?

So:

- Does Armor Pen help with my force attacks? or not.

- These force attacks: Cascading Debris, Project, Slow Time. So... What is the point of Armor Penetration?

Thanks.

Advice: spell out the word fully next time. When you said "Armor Pen", my first thought was incomprehension of how the helmet for the "Winter Outlaw Armor Set" (see photo at https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20200909-0 for a look) could possibly have a special effect for Shadows. (Er, yes, it's a pen. And it somehow clings to the side of your head a centimetre or so above your ear.)

Yes.

I'm yanking your chain. Sort of. That really was my immediate thought.

I still have no idea what "armor pen" is, but if it's an "amplifier" it's probably not worth worrying about. 🤔

"pen" == "penetration"

If I recall correctly... and I admit that I probably don't, so 'grain of salt'...

Your attacks have a damage rating; the enemy has an armor rating. There's a formula (don't ask me what it is) that basically takes the damage, subtracts the armor, and thereby determines how much health the enemy actually loses.

Force Sensitivity increase damage with Force attacks, raising the damage you do and increasing the chance of the enemy losing health.

Other hand, Armor Penetration effectively reduces the armor rating of the enemy, making it have less of a subtractive effect on your damage, for the same result of increasing the enemy's health loss.

The difference is that Force Sensitivity only affects Force attacks, while Armor Penetration also affects your basic Lightsaber attacks as well. As the saying goes, combine both for best result.

From a pvp thread. Not sure if that means anything for pve but hope it helps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14ZjAq6mflbXgHSle4BVjYtrSqfKQrWeXjtAHEuSDZwI/edit#gid=567879846

 

Not sure if that's 100% up to date, but it's a good start at least.

Based on the spread sheet, armor pen seems to be the ideal amplifier for kinetic shadows.

If I recall correctly... and I admit that I probably don't, so 'grain of salt'...

 

Your attacks have a damage rating; the enemy has an armor rating. There's a formula (don't ask me what it is) that basically takes the damage, subtracts the armor, and thereby determines how much health the enemy actually loses.

 

Force Sensitivity increase damage with Force attacks, raising the damage you do and increasing the chance of the enemy losing health.

 

Other hand, Armor Penetration effectively reduces the armor rating of the enemy, making it have less of a subtractive effect on your damage, for the same result of increasing the enemy's health loss.

 

The difference is that Force Sensitivity only affects Force attacks, while Armor Penetration also affects your basic Lightsaber attacks as well. As the saying goes, combine both for best result.

From a pvp thread. Not sure if that means anything for pve but hope it helps.

 

Based on the spread sheet, armor pen seems to be the ideal amplifier for kinetic shadows.

Thanks for the effort.

Well that's all nice and sweet information. What I truly only care about though and what I asked is, if armor pen is working for my force attacks

Of course I do believe in reliability of the guide linked and I know already that it is "optimal for damage", I just wonder what this very amplifier affects exactly, as listed:

Projectile/Cascading Debris/Slow Time.

So:

- if it is only affecting my very melee / weapon attacks, such as Whirling Blow

- or if it is affecting everything of my damage, so in addition stuff like projectile (force attack)

Because again: Several people told me it is Not affecting it , while some tell me it is, and the tooltip says something else again...

Thank you.

 

What I truly only care about though and what I asked is, if armor pen is working for my force attacks, as listed: Projectile/Cascading Debris/Slow Time.

So again:

- if it is only affecting my very melee / weapon attacks, such as Whirling Blow

- or if it is affecting everything of my damage, so in addition stuff like projectile (force attack)

Because again: Several people told me it is Not affecting it , while some tell me it is, and the tooltip says something else again...

 

Thank you.

It's risky for me to assume but I am going to say that based on the information given by the spread sheet it does affect your force attacks. I'm not a kinetic shadow player myself but I have tried it and it felt like it was mostly a force attack using class. And if the spread sheet shows that armor pen gives the best increase to kinetic shadow dps then I'm going against what your guildmates have told you and say that it does work for your force damage.

But you could try using the amplifier yourself, and testing if it indeed works. Don't need a whole set just test if the damage output is bigger.

It's risky for me to assume but I am going to say that based on the information given by the spread sheet it does affect your force attacks. I'm not a kinetic shadow player myself but I have tried it and it felt like it was mostly a force attack using class. And if the spread sheet shows that armor pen gives the best increase to kinetic shadow dps then I'm going against what your guildmates have told you and say that it does work for your force damage.

That's a good judgement, after reading your post I looked at it again, so looking at the Kinetic/Darkness:

3,17% of Weapon Expertise

4,60% of Force Sensitivity

vs 7,49% of Armor Penetration...

Also if you compare it with the Infiltration Spec where :

4,79 of Weapon expertise and having worse Effect from Armor Pen (5,74%) than Kinetic/Darkness,

this could be a good Hint.

However I don't know the details of each Spec - I know some specs simply have Armor Pen themselves, thusly the Amplifier isn't adding as much relatively.

BTW: I know about my own Spec though, it's indeed 4 force attacks, 2 saber attacks per rotation, with possibility towards about 50% (weapon/force) depending on Target Health (...) and exact speccing (MiM, which is not always gotten) and gearing (stun set...) (both add one more weapon attack to the roation essentially) (This is not the topic to talk about that , but I got the rotation and details noted here).

But you could try using the amplifier yourself, and testing if it indeed works. Don't need a whole set just test if the damage output is bigger.

I think it's not as easy, because of many random numbers. You need to gather the numbers and calculate the averages. In Addition to me not having access to the great Armor-Pen-Amps. It would be an ingestion I want to know more about, first.

Thank you for your posts. The sheet certainly answers the topic - kind of. At least for making my decisions based on better background knowledge as I hoped for, now. Thanks

As I understand it Armor Penetration works to reduce the enemy's damage reduction related to Kinetic/Energy damage. Your spec, which is the mirror of my main's spec, Darkness Assassin, deals almost* entirely in energy/kinetic damage. So while they are powers granted by the Force that is doing the damage they are still interacting with the enemy's armor which means that Armor Penetration is potentially the best spec for increasing your damage as it effects nearly all of your damage dealing powers.

* discharge/force breach is the only attack I can think of that deals internal/elemental type damage and thus wouldn't benefit from armor penetration.