Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Canonical Choices


EAFSAMWISE's Avatar


EAFSAMWISE
03.04.2021 , 05:52 PM | #1
I know this thread will probably be met with backlash and that people will probably be making tons of "you decide how the story goes, it's up to you," comments, so I am acknowledging the reality of that beforehand. With this in mind, however, I had an exchange that recently got me thinking--I was playing on my Jedi Knight toon and got to the point in KOTFE where you start recruiting people for the Alliance. One of the more minor exchanges I had was with 2V-R8, the default service droid for ships that all Imp players in the game have. he mentions at one point how "cruel" his master was and how happy he was to be free from him. So in light of this I was wondering, since every class story involves you playing supposedly as a real character in galactic history, are certain possible choices more "canonical" than others in terms of what actually happens? I.e., should it be assumed that Republic characters mostly choose Light-Side options and that Imperial characters mostly choose Dark-side options? Thus should it be assumed that Jaesa Wilsaam's parents were really murdered in cold blood by her soon-to-be master, and that Vette remained a slave and was abused/tortured, for example? Please share your thoughts on this.

rashencyberspeed's Avatar


rashencyberspeed
03.04.2021 , 08:09 PM | #2
Given that the dialogue in 2V-R8's reunion when playing an imperial does not change based on whether you're light or dark, I don't think he's meant to be seen as having the best judgement of whether his masters are cruel or kind.

Also, Jaesa cannot be recruited by anyone other than the Sith Warrior. And she never even appears for anyone else. Almost certainly in order to avoid establishing a canon. (A similar case occurs with Khem Val, who can potentially have be forced out of his body, leaving Zash as the sole owner.)

So no, there is no canon. And the devs are in fact actively going out of their way to avoid establishing a canon. They do have a "default" for people who skip straight to later stories, but not a strict canon.

FlameYOL's Avatar


FlameYOL
03.05.2021 , 10:49 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by rashencyberspeed View Post
Given that the dialogue in 2V-R8's reunion when playing an imperial does not change based on whether you're light or dark, I don't think he's meant to be seen as having the best judgement of whether his masters are cruel or kind.

Also, Jaesa cannot be recruited by anyone other than the Sith Warrior. And she never even appears for anyone else. Almost certainly in order to avoid establishing a canon. (A similar case occurs with Khem Val, who can potentially have be forced out of his body, leaving Zash as the sole owner.)

So no, there is no canon. And the devs are in fact actively going out of their way to avoid establishing a canon. They do have a "default" for people who skip straight to later stories, but not a strict canon.
Pretty much this, also let's remember how 2V is telling a story about how he "stoop up" to his "evil master" or something in order to look cooler than he actually is, and by this means, I mean he was straight up lying.
A man can have anything...If he's willing to sacrifice everything

vallixas's Avatar


vallixas
03.06.2021 , 09:43 AM | #4
That's because yes, there is certainly a canon, though not discussed. Imperial characters are all assumed to make darkside choices and lightside characters assumed to make lightside choices. That's why it's the default for most choices save a few like with Theron where the default for both imps/pubs is keeping him. That's why even the wikis use these. Darth Nox for example is evil by default, and assumed to have treated his companions like a sith would same with Warrior hence why 2V acts that way. Darth Imperius is treated as the "gameplay alternative".

You can play as DS Jedi and LS sith, this game gives you that freedom, but the canon for these classes are always seen as falling inline with their roles. In all games with choices the lightside is considered the canon. It's pretty much the rule. They may say there is no canon, because the game is on-going and they don't want to take certain players out of it. But you better believe once this game wraps up, or they decide to go with another game a canon will be chosen as it was with the original kotors, and it will without a doubt have all the classes fall in-line with their roles and probably place the Knight's story as canon protag.

FlameYOL's Avatar


FlameYOL
03.06.2021 , 11:47 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by vallixas View Post
That's because yes, there is certainly a canon, though not discussed. Imperial characters are all assumed to make darkside choices and lightside characters assumed to make lightside choices. That's why it's the default for most choices save a few like with Theron where the default for both imps/pubs is keeping him. That's why even the wikis use these. Darth Nox for example is evil by default, and assumed to have treated his companions like a sith would same with Warrior hence why 2V acts that way. Darth Imperius is treated as the "gameplay alternative".

You can play as DS Jedi and LS sith, this game gives you that freedom, but the canon for these classes are always seen as falling inline with their roles. In all games with choices the lightside is considered the canon. It's pretty much the rule. They may say there is no canon, because the game is on-going and they don't want to take certain players out of it. But you better believe once this game wraps up, or they decide to go with another game a canon will be chosen as it was with the original kotors, and it will without a doubt have all the classes fall in-line with their roles and probably place the Knight's story as canon protag.
You have a misunderstanding here default=/=canon, ME has default choices for characters and so does Dragon Age. Neither of those default states are the canon, I also highly doubt we'll see a canon version of events within the game after it closes. Its the last piece of Legends material being published and I don't see Lucasfilm bothering with chosing a canon version like they did with KOTOR unless they continue Legends, which is unlikely to ever happen. Also the wikis use it for the purposes of making it easier to write about those figures, and they're fan-wikis. Using fan wikis an argument is not how things work, they're not edited and approved by Bioware or Lucasfilm.
A man can have anything...If he's willing to sacrifice everything

Enskojare's Avatar


Enskojare
03.10.2021 , 02:13 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by rashencyberspeed View Post
So no, there is no canon. And the devs are in fact actively going out of their way to avoid establishing a canon. They do have a "default" for people who skip straight to later stories, but not a strict canon.
I would argue that they have in fact established a canon choice: Sparing Broga the Hutt on Quesh in exchange for his servitute. You can kill or spare him, but he later appears as a Republic ally in the Republic Quesh story where Moff Dracen is killed or arrested and then shipped away from Quesh. The way I look at that is the only way for both stories to work is for Broga to betray the Empire and later help the Republic kill/arrest Dracen. It's the only way I imagine the Quesh story's continuity making sense.

rashencyberspeed's Avatar


rashencyberspeed
03.10.2021 , 05:31 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Enskojare View Post
I would argue that they have in fact established a canon choice: Sparing Broga the Hutt on Quesh in exchange for his servitute. You can kill or spare him, but he later appears as a Republic ally in the Republic Quesh story where Moff Dracen is killed or arrested and then shipped away from Quesh. The way I look at that is the only way for both stories to work is for Broga to betray the Empire and later help the Republic kill/arrest Dracen. It's the only way I imagine the Quesh story's continuity making sense.
I don't like Quesh's story. I hate the idea of my choices being invalidated. (Fun fact: I originally thought the Imperial story took place after the Republic story since Broga can be killed. I forgot Dracen showed up in the Republic story and could be killed.)

I think it's meant to be a mutually exclusive case where whoever canonically wins on Quesh is determined by who the player plays as.

Though, I prefer to headcanon that Broga had the foresight to flee Quesh and place a body double before the Imps got a hold of him.

Enskojare's Avatar


Enskojare
03.10.2021 , 06:17 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by rashencyberspeed View Post
I don't like Quesh's story. I hate the idea of my choices being invalidated. (Fun fact: I originally thought the Imperial story took place after the Republic story since Broga can be killed. I forgot Dracen showed up in the Republic story and could be killed.)

I think it's meant to be a mutually exclusive case where whoever canonically wins on Quesh is determined by who the player plays as.

Though, I prefer to headcanon that Broga had the foresight to flee Quesh and place a body double before the Imps got a hold of him.
Fair enough. I think you can look at it as both happening, or it's like shared Flashpoints and Operations as well as the Warzones (Assuming those aren't just constant battles, either faction could have won on Novare and the Voidstar etc.)

vallixas's Avatar


vallixas
03.13.2021 , 07:32 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by FlameYOL View Post
You have a misunderstanding here default=/=canon, ME has default choices for characters and so does Dragon Age. Neither of those default states are the canon, I also highly doubt we'll see a canon version of events within the game after it closes. Its the last piece of Legends material being published and I don't see Lucasfilm bothering with chosing a canon version like they did with KOTOR unless they continue Legends, which is unlikely to ever happen. Also the wikis use it for the purposes of making it easier to write about those figures, and they're fan-wikis. Using fan wikis an argument is not how things work, they're not edited and approved by Bioware or Lucasfilm.
Actually yes, many of the default choices in those games are canon. And the developer usually establishes the canon after the next title releases as to not invalidate people's choices during it's run. They have done so with Dragon Age, Origins has a canon warden who is the Dalish Elf, despite giving us the choice to chose our race. Alistair is the canonical king etc https://twitter.com/BioMarkDarrah/st...64515717873665. The books and comics also follow this canon. We could also choose in the original Kotor games, but they still went with a canon in the end. This applies to not just Bioware games. In most games the default choice is considered the canon, most recently Assassins Creed. It is this way for continuity reasons. The Wikis, follow the general rule Lucas established himself; Lightside is always canon in any game with choices, and Bioware despite not outright saying it continues to follow this rule. The Knight is clearly the canonical Outlander as shown in all the trailers. Arcann and Senya are assumed to be saved as they are alongside the Knight in Echoes as well.
Spoiler
Hell the entire KOTFE expansion is most fitting for Knight, and seems out of place for all other parties involved. It's not like we should be surprised by any of this. We already know the Empire loses for one. We already know a world state where the empire has killed or enslaved everyone is not happening lol

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
03.13.2021 , 09:10 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by vallixas View Post
Actually yes, many of the default choices in those games are canon.
No. It's only a default for characters that didn't play through the other content, not a definitive statement of what "really" happens. That's what "canon" really means, mind, a definitive statement of what happens, and the defaults aren't that.

They have to be *something* (i.e. if your character doesn't play through the class stories or KotFE or whatever, there has to be *something* for what the character did during those stories), but that doesn't make that "something" any sort of definitive version.
Not really what you think.
To go to Belsavis, you must go to Belsavis.
?REDO FROM START
Latest patch notes at http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes