Why elevate PVE to match player character potential, when you can just dumb down all the abilities? You don't need those abilities to watch cutscenes. Is it really "combat" when you know you're going to win anyway?

 

Alot of mobile games have an autoplay function, where you can sit back and relax while the game plays itself for you. Those games do really well, and people really enjoy spending money on the cash shop to make their characters look even better while they watch the story unfold. Lots of people download them so they must be good games.

 

SWTOR just needs 3 buttons, and an autoplay function for those of us who want to play FF14 at the same time. Star Trek Online does something very similar, because you can configure your ship to automatically attack/respond, and you really only need 3 buttons because it's on console anyways. We should be able to set up our characters to autoattack in SWTOR as well, because both Star Trek Online and SWTOR are both science fiction mmos.

 

/s

 

Even though you're being sarcastic doing things this way would probably result in more revenue and player interest in the game.

 

Star Trek Online does something very similar, because you can configure your ship to automatically attack/respond, and you really only need 3 buttons because it's on console anyways.

 

STO was on PC for years before it was ever on console and when I would look up endgame videos I would see who ever was playing popping off a bunch of abilities and the global cooldowns activating faster than it seemed like someone could activate the abilities. I then found out that what players were doing was using a macro/program to bind all their offensive abilities to a single keybind, all their science abilities to a single keybind, all their engineering abilities to a single keybind, etc. Again this was before the game was ever on console but it begged the question that if STO could be played like that why was it designed with all the skill bars and abilities it had?

 

STO always ran up against the issue of trying to design content for what they thought Star Trek fans would want, ie technical complexities, versus their very basic MMO design structure/framework.

 

It was great that it had all those technical elements for ST fans but those elements never seemed necessary or justified versus STO's very simple nature. It's like they wanted to build or make a very technical space simulation/MMO but only did so with the menus/interface and never with the actual game itself.

Yes SWTOR has good story, but having an at least average combat system attached makes it that much better, without that, what's the point?

But just how many players do you think you represent? What if 10% of players do Ops in harder modes (They did say that only 8% had even set foot in ToS at some point and that included SM, so I'm being generous). What if people who play PvP seriously are an even smaller segment of the player base (Considering how little love PvP has had over the years). Those are the two groups that would/could be interested in complexity of a combat system.

 

Perhaps the vast majority of players would like to see this simplified. Then we'd have to give in and accept, as much as that pains me to say it.

But just how many players do you think you represent? What if 10% of players do Ops in harder modes (They did say that only 8% had even set foot in ToS at some point and that included SM, so I'm being generous). What if people who play PvP seriously are an even smaller segment of the player base (Considering how little love PvP has had over the years). Those are the two groups that would/could be interested in complexity of a combat system.

 

Perhaps the vast majority of players would like to see this simplified. Then we'd have to give in and accept, as much as that pains me to say it.

 

That's kind of how I'm looking at it.

 

Are Combat Styles the best move for the game? No, maybe not, not necessarily, but the data Bioware/EA has collected from the game (when do the numbers go up, what percent of players are spending time in what modes, which players are spending money on the cartel market, etc) might show that the game's combat isn't any kind of current advantage to them or that they potentially get more people to sign up for the game to try out the new system(s) than the amount of people they have currently playing the game.

 

Changes like this tend to happen because somewhere along the way somebody crunches the numbers and discovers that the game or a part of the game isn't operating at it's maximum potential, that it could grow or potentially do better or make more money from making these changes.

 

That doesn't mean the changes are right or the best course of action to take that's just the explanation of why they happen. Too often people align explanation and defense/support with one another. Just because a weatherman can explain to you why it's raining or hot outside doesn't mean he's defending (or in agreement with) the heat or whatever.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

Even if he represents the minority in the type of content he prefers to play, that doesn't mean he's wrong. This game is all about combat, there is no activity other than fighting here so having a combat experience that feels good is crucial.

And this is why everyone freaks out about removing abilities because it makes the impression that the game is just not going to be as fun as it used to. I believe that the pruned classes are something that they will be building on top of because there are going to be new abilities added that we have yet to see, but I'm worried that those new abilities aren't going to be enough. In any case, attempting to refresh the classes and combat is better than not even trying IMO, but only if this is going to be something new and not the pruned version of the same thing. So, I like the idea of a revamp, but right now we just see the ditching of some abilities here and there.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Voroschuk

Even if he represents the minority in the type of content he prefers to play, that doesn't mean he's wrong.

 

It's not a wrong vs right thing this is more about what Bioware/EA feels the game does or doesn't need, what draws people in vs keeping them away, what percentage or part of their audience is spending money on the game, etc. That's why it's happening not because it's right or wrong.

 

This game is all about combat

 

The game's story is a major factor and perhaps the biggest draw of the game as it's the most significant or unique element it has compared to its competition. If the game didn't have the story it couldn't hang its hat on the combat because isn't good enough to do that.

 

there is no activity other than fighting here so having a combat experience that feels good is crucial.

 

But SWTOR doesn't have a combat system that feels good. It's always come across as mediocre or the bare minimum an MMO needs and it didn't help that it copied/lifted so much from WoW because it resulted in SWTOR not having much of an identity in terms of combat.

 

If someone with a large following on Twitter or Twitch asked their audience "Hey I wanna play an MMO with good combat what game(s) would you guys suggest?" How many people do you think would say SWTOR?

 

SWTOR's combat has never been good or strong enough for the entire game to hinge upon which is unfortunate given how much of the game requires the player to engage with it. It's like having a fighting game with lots of different modes but a combat system that's not particularly great.

 

And this is why everyone freaks out about removing abilities because it makes the impression that the game is just not going to be as fun as it used to.

 

And what if a significant portion of SWTOR's audience feels the combat isn't fun?

 

"All the people playing the game right now must like or enjoy SWTOR's combat as is or else they wouldn't stick around." but that's the case. I'd be willing to bet that a large number of people who play SWTOR simply tolerate it or are used to it. "This is just what the game is and has always been so I deal with it."

 

In any case, attempting to refresh the classes and combat is better than not even trying IMO, but only if this is going to be something new and not the pruned version of the same thing. So, I like the idea of a revamp, but right now we just see the ditching of some abilities here and there.

 

Pruning might not be the way to go but SWTOR has been in need for some kind of combat revamp/overhaul for some time now. Really the whole game kind of needs an overhaul at this point. A lot of it just either so messy, dated, in need of updating/tuning, etc.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

Even if he represents the minority in the type of content he prefers to play, that doesn't mean he's wrong. This game is all about combat, there is no activity other than fighting here so having a combat experience that feels good is crucial.

And this is why everyone freaks out about removing abilities because it makes the impression that the game is just not going to be as fun as it used to. I believe that the pruned classes are something that they will be building on top of because there are going to be new abilities added that we have yet to see, but I'm worried that those new abilities aren't going to be enough. In any case, attempting to refresh the classes and combat is better than not even trying IMO, but only if this is going to be something new and not the pruned version of the same thing. So, I like the idea of a revamp, but right now we just see the ditching of some abilities here and there.

Well there are other activities. Strongholds, Space Barbie, Stories and some events are not about combat. However, you are right that combat is the mainstay of this game.

 

But what if there actually is an issue with too many DCDs and what if the vast majority of players never or rarely use certain skills?

But what if there actually is an issue with too many DCDs and what if the vast majority of players never or rarely use certain skills?

Defensive capabilities really depend on a class and even disciplines, and a combination of some defensives, utilities, tacticals, and set bonuses can make a huge difference. Look at Energy Shield and how different it can be for mercs and powertechs with different utilities and set bonuses. It's not just the amount of DCD's, it is much more complicated than that. And don't forget that some classes have more defensives than others and the number of abilities overall is different for some specs, but it looks like every spec is going to lose the same amount of cooldowns.

 

So yes there is an issue with DCD's and balance overall but it isn't solved until we can test the changes in PvP and PvE and say it works and it is balanced and every combat style is competitive and capable. What if the overall reduction of abilities will render some combat styles completely useless in PvP or PvE in comparison to the other ones? Less number of abilities can make the gap between "trash" and "meta" even bigger because it will be more obvious to see the difference in their performance.

 

And as for the new players, well, they don't get the full kit at the 1'st level, right? They gain their abilities with the new levels and there is a learning curve. There is some pretty challenging solo content that will allow you to master your abilities like doing heroics solo without a companion, eternal championship, master mode chapters, not everyone just wants to do it. Go try to kill Genoharradan Leader on your own and you will find out that you may want a few more abilities on your quickbar)) And if someone wants to stick to the ez mode PvE, then they may not need every ability, but no one asks them to put those abilities on a bar, hotkey them, or use them there.

 

If streamlining and combat overhaul will make the fights look and feel better, classes easy to learn and hard to master, and if everyone will be able to pick their favorite combat style and play the content they like and perform as good as others it will be the coolest update ever, but right now it's just not happening, maybe it is too early to tell, idk.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Voroschuk

I have played this game for many years (on and off). It always seems to entice me back. In game I proudly display the founder title. I rarely post.

 

I find the ability system bloated and full of redundancy. I wish for an ability system that presents choice dependent upon class/role. A system that has individual rotations consisting of 40 plus individual actions that themselves are determined by situation is not and never was, what I wanted this combat system to progress into.

 

I like the idea behind the Combat Styles. I want to be able to choose a base class and then swap out my weapon to determine my style of play. I see nothing wrong there.

 

If the idea behind this new development is to facilitate improvements in the game I am all for it. If it is being done simply to make the game more simplistic then that is a totally different matter and not one I would support.

What if the overall reduction of abilities will render some combat styles completely useless in PvP or PvE in comparison to the other ones?

 

What if they don't care about those things and see them as a necessary loss over the potential gains of Combat Styles?

 

If the PVP and Group PVE audiences aren't the players who are spending the most amount of money on the game while those that play Solo PVE are then what is Bioware/EA going to care about upsetting the PVP and Group PVE audience?

 

There is some pretty challenging solo content that will allow you to master your abilities like doing heroics solo without a companion, eternal championship, master mode chapters, not everyone just wants to do it.

 

So in other words they have a bunch of content that they spent a bunch of money, time, and resources on that's justifying them doing so. Weird that they'd wanna change things up to possibly try and change that.

 

And if someone wants to stick to the ez mode PvE, then they may not need every ability, but no one asks them to put those abilities on a bar, hotkey them, or use them there.

 

If the majority of the player base are the ones sticking to ez mode PvE and Bioware isn't focusing on PVP nor sees it as any kind of priority, which has been the case for years now, what is the justification for having all the extra abilities? Just to satisfy a niche portion of the player base?

 

If Bioware/EA's market research shows that the skill bars are something that are keeping players away from the game does it continue to make sense to keep the game down that path especially if the audience that is in favor of it isn't really generating any revenue for the game? How do you then justify keeping combat the same?

Defensive capabilities really depend on a class and even disciplines, and a combination of some defensives, utilities, tacticals, and set bonuses can make a huge difference. Look at Energy Shield and how different it can be for mercs and powertechs with different utilities and set bonuses. It's not just the amount of DCD's, it is much more complicated than that. And don't forget that some classes have more defensives than others and the number of abilities overall is different for some specs, but it looks like every spec is going to lose the same amount of cooldowns.

 

So yes there is an issue with DCD's and balance overall but it isn't solved until we can test the changes in PvP and PvE and say it works and it is balanced and every combat style is competitive and capable. What if the overall reduction of abilities will render some combat styles completely useless in PvP or PvE in comparison to the other ones? Less number of abilities can make the gap between "trash" and "meta" even bigger because it will be more obvious to see the difference in their performance.

Well on the PTS forum that's what BW explained that over time there had been too many DCDs and this was affecting PvP especially. That's why I brought that up.

And as for the new players, well, they don't get the full kit at the 1'st level, right? They gain their abilities with the new levels and there is a learning curve. There is some pretty challenging solo content that will allow you to master your abilities like doing heroics solo without a companion, eternal championship, master mode chapters, not everyone just wants to do it. Go try to kill Genoharradan Leader on your own and you will find out that you may want a few more abilities on your quickbar)) And if someone wants to stick to the ez mode PvE, then they may not need every ability, but no one asks them to put those abilities on a bar, hotkey them, or use them there.

There is no learning curve. Solo PvE is so easy they can get away with just using one skill and their companions take over the rest and if they run into something they can't do by themselves you can ask for help and complain about it on the forum, but there is no learning curve unless you want there to be one. And when you have a companion at influence 50, your output doesn't even matter so much anymore.

 

Also, new skills you acquire are auto-filled when you get them, so your comment about "no one asks them to put those abilities on a bar" is rather a silly comment.

If streamlining and combat overhaul will make the fights look and feel better, classes easy to learn and hard to master, and if everyone will be able to pick their favorite combat style and play the content they like and perform as good as others it will be the coolest update ever, but right now it's just not happening, maybe it is too early to tell, idk.

Well I think you're right. It's not going to be a matter of easy to learn and hard to master, though I feel those two go hand in hand. Combat won't look any better, perhaps it will feel better?

 

And well, since not everybody likes or cares for this combat styles thing it rather depends on the person whether or not this will be the "coolest update ever". Besides, you can pick the combat style you like and play the content you want right now. What will be different is that you can change your mind after character creation, but right now it's easy to create alts.

 

And well, I think a lot people would've rather had more options of weapons in a different way than this.

Well there are other activities. Strongholds, Space Barbie, Stories and some events are not about combat. However, you are right that combat is the mainstay of this game.

 

But what if there actually is an issue with too many DCDs and what if the vast majority of players never or rarely use certain skills?

 

 

It's not the abilities, or the amount of them, that causes issues. It's the environment that surrounds the abilities that causes the issues.

 

First problem is how quickly people level. Even a brand new player can get a max level toon in a couple of days, with consumable boosts and/or double exp events. Then they're "stuck" with a max level toon they don't know how to play. That's their choice.

 

Second problem is that npc's have no AI, no tactics or strategy, and almost no chance to win the encounter with the player, or survive. You might/would actually have to use a dcd, if NPC's called for help or ran to a set of friends to try and survive. Most normal strength npcs are little more than speed bumps to player characters.

 

Third is companions, and how they turn already easy fights into automatic wins in solo pve. The typical player character dpsing while the companion heals means that there's no reason for players to actually learn their class.

 

The solution isn't to dumb down the game. Give npcs a fighting chance. Nerf companions more, or even add a mode where extra rewards are given out for missions when you choose not to use your companion. Suddenly, all those dcds and unused abilities are going to matter a heck of a lot more in pve, and when you learn how to use them effectively it makes for some pretty satisfying gameplay.

Well on the PTS forum that's what BW explained that over time there had been too many DCDs and this was affecting PvP especially. That's why I brought that up.

I'm afraid BW devs are trying to understand what's wrong with PvP just like we are, but we actually play the game))

There is no learning curve.... unless you want there to be one.

welp

Also, new skills you acquire are auto-filled when you get them, so your comment about "no one asks them to put those abilities on a bar" is rather a silly comment.

True xD But only if you use additional quickbars.

 

And well, since not everybody likes or cares for this combat styles thing it rather depends on the person whether or not this will be the "coolest update ever". Besides, you can pick the combat style you like and play the content you want right now. What will be different is that you can change your mind after character creation, but right now it's easy to create alts.

It's not just about changing a class, they change the ability kit as well, so it concerns everyone I think.

 

And well, I think a lot people would've rather had more options of weapons in a different way than this.

I agree with that. Most people just wanted to be a Commando or Powertech with a rifle, or Operative with a pistol, things like that

Edited July 29, 2021 by Voroschuk

The solution isn't to dumb down the game. Give npcs a fighting chance. Nerf companions more, or even add a mode where extra rewards are given out for missions when you choose not to use your companion. Suddenly, all those dcds and unused abilities are going to matter a heck of a lot more in pve, and when you learn how to use them effectively it makes for some pretty satisfying gameplay.

 

That doesn't really do anything beyond satisfying you (or a specific set of players) though. Those changes aren't going to bring an entirely new significant audience of people to the game, they're not the type of changes or additions that will generate more money or result in the changes that Bioware/EA are looking to see from the game.

 

There's a clear direction that Bioware/EA wants to go in and have been continuing to go in for years now. If someone wants X out of the game they need to figure out how X works within or can benefit the place Bioware is and the direction they want to keep going in rather than just continuing to say "don't go in that direction."

 

None of what I'm saying means that Bioware is choosing to go in the right direction or have made the best decisions in the past but it's easier to get devs to listen or be accepting of ideas when you can present things to them that are all around beneficial, especially to them and their bottom line.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

I agree with that. Most people just wanted to be a Commando or Powertech with a rifle, or Operative with a pistol, things like that

 

That would require Bioware to do a bunch of new animations or make significant tweaks to existing animations to make them line up properly with the different weapons.

 

A lot of people saw the announcement/live-stream and for some reason was going to be this highly customizable feature with a bunch of additional work (new animations, etc) put into it but what in the game's past several years of updates would lead any one to believe that Bioware would handle things that way and not approach it from the simplest way possible, ie you're just playing that class now, with their skills because all the existing skills and animations are tied specifically to those weapons.

None of what I'm saying means that Bioware is choosing to go in the right direction or have made the best decisions in the past but it's easier to get devs to listen or be accepting of ideas when you can present things to them that are all around beneficial, especially to them and their bottom line.

 

This mentality is... completely backwards. And yet, so common. It is not up to me, as a customer, to tell Bioware how to make more money with less resources. It is, however, to convey my displeasure with proposed changes before they implement them. If they do go ahead with them regardless -and they will- then the only option left is voting with my wallet.

 

Not gonna lie, it's pretty entertaining to watch the lengths to which some folks will go to rationalize their Stockholm syndrome. This notion that consumers need to provide business advice to companies to have their opinions heard is a new low. I doubt this is the kind of entertainment they were going for in their design meetings, though.

 

Businesses compete for my attention -- not the other way around.

The game's story is a major factor and perhaps the biggest draw of the game as it's the most significant or unique element it has compared to its competition. If the game didn't have the story it couldn't hang its hat on the combat because isn't good enough to do that.

The story isn't gameplay, it is not an activity, if it's all about a story, why making a videogame, more than that an MMO, at all?

But SWTOR doesn't have a combat system that feels good. It's always come across as mediocre or the bare minimum an MMO needs and it didn't help that it copied/lifted so much from WoW because it resulted in SWTOR not having much of an identity in terms of combat.

 

If someone with a large following on Twitter or Twitch asked their audience "Hey I wanna play an MMO with good combat what game(s) would you guys suggest?" How many people do you think would say SWTOR?

SWTOR's combat has never been good or strong enough for the entire game to hinge upon which is unfortunate given how much of the game requires the player to engage with it. It's like having a fighting game with lots of different modes but a combat system that's not particularly great.

 

And what if a significant portion of SWTOR's audience feels the combat isn't fun?

 

"All the people playing the game right now must like or enjoy SWTOR's combat as is or else they wouldn't stick around." but that's the case. I'd be willing to bet that a large number of people who play SWTOR simply tolerate it or are used to it. "This is just what the game is and has always been so I deal with it."

It is true, but we don't need it worse, right?

 

Pruning might not be the way to go but SWTOR has been in need for some kind of combat revamp/overhaul for some time now. Really the whole game kind of needs an overhaul at this point. A lot of it just either so messy, dated, in need of updating/tuning, etc.

 

Yes, and that is my point exactly.

What if they don't care about those things and see them as a necessary loss over the potential gains of Combat Styles?

There isn't much of a gain for us by getting Combat Styles that I can think of other than being able to respec into another class.

If the PVP and Group PVE audiences aren't the players who are spending the most amount of money on the game while those that play Solo PVE are then what is Bioware/EA going to care about upsetting the PVP and Group PVE audience?

PVP and Group PVE audiences are subscribers by default, so they are paying their subs at least, and since they are more social there is more reason for them to buy the emotes, armor, mounts and other stuff to show off.

If the majority of the player base are the ones sticking to ez mode PvE and Bioware isn't focusing on PVP nor sees it as any kind of priority, which has been the case for years now, what is the justification for having all the extra abilities? Just to satisfy a niche portion of the player base?

Raiders are mad at this change, and I can bet those guys spend a lot of their time and money on this game, much more than someone who will play the class story and then walk away.

If Bioware/EA's market research shows that the skill bars are something that are keeping players away from the game does it continue to make sense to keep the game down that path especially if the audience that is in favor of it isn't really generating any revenue for the game? How do you then justify keeping combat the same?

Too many "ifs". What if casuals aren't generating revenue at all? This is a F2P game, they don't have to pay, you know.

 

And have you ever thought of a possibility that a HUGE amount of players who don't PvP would like to do so in this particular game with their own customized chars, but they don't just because they don't like the current state of it here?

Or maybe they would like to do other things than story content like raids but they don't for the same reason?

 

And by the way, I never said I want combat to be the same, I want it changed, but for the better)

Edited July 29, 2021 by Voroschuk

This mentality is... completely backwards. And yet, so common. It is not up to me, as a customer, to tell Bioware how to make more money with less resources. It is, however, to convey my displeasure with proposed changes before they implement them. If they do go ahead with them regardless -and they will- then the only option left is voting with my wallet.

 

Not gonna lie, it's pretty entertaining to watch the lengths to which some folks will go to rationalize their Stockholm syndrome. This notion that consumers need to provide business advice to companies to have their opinions heard is a new low. I doubt this is the kind of entertainment they were going for in their design meetings, though.

 

Businesses compete for my attention -- not the other way around.

 

I'm not saying people can't or shouldn't suggest other things or pie in the sky ideas or anything like that but more that those shouldn't be the only ideas or discussions about a game.

 

For example at this point what does saying "They need to bring back class stories!" accomplish? It's probably been the most requested thing since launch. It's known that it's a highly requested feature, it's also well known that Bioware doesn't have the resources to do them. So, if we're not going to see class stories at all wouldn't it be great to at least get some element of them, ie more VO that identifies us as our class, than nothing at all?

The story isn't gameplay, it is not an activity

 

To a number of people it is. It's the thing they're most invested in, spend the most time engaged with, etc.

 

When you or Bioware sees someone who's got like 30 alts do you/they think that's because of the gameplay or is it because they like (re)playing through the story?

 

if it's all about a story, why making a videogame, more than that an MMO, at all?

 

So things like visual novels, Telltale games, games that are pretty much entirely story-driven with little to no gameplay shouldn't exist?

 

One of the things people have said about SWTOR for years is that it feels very much like a single-player game with the way you go about playing through the story, how instanced everything is, etc, and asking why'd they bother making an MMO instead of just KOTOR 3 and the reason why is because SWTOR has/had the ability to be a constant revenue stream for EA in ways that a KOTOR 3 never could be.

 

SWTOR at no point has first and foremost been an MMO and that was always a major criticism about it. The story content always got the lions share of the attention, focus, and resources compared to every other part of the game.

 

Name one part of SWTOR that is even remotely close to receiving the amount of attention, focus and resources that they've put into the story content. It's certainly not PVP or OPs or FPs. The closest thing would probably be the Cartel Market.

 

It is true, but we don't need it worse, right?

 

It doesn't need to be as bad as it is right? It didn't need to copy WoW right?

 

Leave X thing alone because it was at best okay is not a good enough justification to not try and do something different.

 

There isn't much of a gain for us by getting Combat Styles that I can think of other than being able to respec into another class.

 

It gets attention and will pull in new subs when it launches. SWTOR hasn't had an announcement in quite some time that's gotten this much attention. There also isn't much or any gain to leaving it alone because it's never been good enough or a significant enough draw to bring people into the game.

 

PVP and Group PVE audiences are subscribers by default, so they are paying their subs at least, and since they are more social there is more reason for them to buy the emotes, armor, mounts and other stuff to show off.

 

You might think that but there's a chance that Bioware's numbers and metrics don't actually reflect that or that those players are affecting their bottom line to any significant degree.

 

Bioware decided to cut back on their Seasonal PVP rewards because they could no longer justify the amount of resources they were devoting to them. Guess what, that means that not enough people are engaing with PVP to make that sort of content worth doing. They're not making enough money off PVP to make that content worth doing.

 

You've also got a lot of PVPers who only play PVP which means that those rewards are potentially only being seen by other PVPers who possibly already have them as well which makes them not as prestigious. See, what you want is more people who are PVE players to see those items and as a result engage with PVP but if most of the people with those items only ever play PVP then the PVE population is never seeing those items out in the wild.

 

Also where in PVP are people showing off mounts?

 

Raiders are mad at this change, and I can bet those guys spend a lot of their time and money on this game, much more than someone who will play the class story and then walk away.

 

Again, Bioware's numbers probably don't reflect that or else they wouldn't be making this type of change and would do more group content for those players.

 

I would say that the more likely scenario is that when a new major update or expansion hits. The game's numbers shoot up drastically. The numbers Bioware/EA see during that time for the CM are no doubt at their highest and those numbers in a month or two month period probably completely dwarf what the long term players are spending over the course of a year. As a result Bioware/EA is more interested in repeating that one to two month spike and how to keep that happening opposed to satisfying the smaller number of people that aren't generating as much profit for them.

 

Too many "ifs". What if casuals aren't generating revenue at all? This is a F2P game, they don't have to pay, you know.

 

Bioware/EA have the numbers/metrics, you don't, you know?

 

And have you ever thought of a possibility that a HUGE amount of players who don't PvP would like to do so in this particular game with their own customized chars, but they don't just because they don't like the current state of it here?

 

Yeah, I have and I've thought about how they don't enjoy the combat enough to engage with it too, or how there are other ways to get players who wouldn't normally engage with PVP to engage with it, etc.

 

In order to get those people to engage with PVP you'd have to do things that cater to them more, whether that be make matches shorter, allow them to play against bots, integrate PVE content into PVP like GW2 did/does, etc.

 

Or maybe they would like to do other things than story content like raids but they don't for the same reason?

 

More often than not the most common reasons you find for people not engaging with group content in things like MMOs is because they either like playing by themselves or they feel like they're going let their team down or upset them somehow. MMOs have generally been pretty terrible about easing players into group content or providing tutorials for it or doing anything beyond having rewards for that specific content to get players interested in it.

 

The games that have better luck in that area are games like Diablo, Phantasy Star Online, Warframe, etc, that are focused around a smaller group of players, usually 4, but basically require no communication because it tends to be very clear what it is you're supposed to be doing and if you don't the mechanics of those games tend to be simple enough that you can see what another player is doing and learn.

When you or Bioware sees someone who's got like 30 alts do you/they think that's because of the gameplay or is it because they like (re)playing through the story?

Honestly, I'd think this is a crafter))

So things like visual novels, Telltale games, games that are pretty much entirely story-driven with little to no gameplay shouldn't exist?

You just said it: little to no gameplay. You don't play that so that's why they are called visual novels, and it's not a bad thing at all.

It doesn't need to be as bad as it is right? It didn't need to copy WoW right?

Leave X thing alone because it was at best okay is not a good enough justification to not try and do something different.

And once again, I never said I want it to be the same.

Bioware/EA have the numbers/metrics, you don't, you know?

Dude, you don't know a thing about those metrics just like I don't yet you sound so convinced that you are right))).

Yeah, I have and I've thought about how they don't enjoy the combat enough to engage with it too, or how there are other ways to get players who wouldn't normally engage with PVP to engage with it, etc.

In order to get those people to engage with PVP you'd have to do things that cater to them more, whether that be make matches shorter, allow them to play against bots, integrate PVE content into PVP like GW2 did/does, etc.

Maybe, who knows, they should try something at least.

More often than not the most common reasons you find for people not engaging with group content in things like MMOs is because they either like playing by themselves or they feel like they're going let their team down or upset them somehow. MMOs have generally been pretty terrible about easing players into group content or providing tutorials for it or doing anything beyond having rewards for that specific content to get players interested in it.

Yeah, that's true, like, why we should look somewhere outside the game for the info about the boss mechanics, how to PvP etc. It should be more intuitive, or maybe we should get some hints during the boss encounters, Dxun operation has something like that with those scientist's commentary.

The games that have better luck in that area are games like Diablo, Phantasy Star Online, Warframe, etc, that are focused around a smaller group of players, usually 4, but basically require no communication because it tends to be very clear what it is you're supposed to be doing and if you don't the mechanics of those games tend to be simple enough that you can see what another player is doing and learn.

We have that with Vet Flashpoints, the problem with that is there is no challenge in those activities and thus it becomes boring fast.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Voroschuk

Honestly, I'd think this is a crafter))

 

I wouldn't. Maybe a dozen or two dozen but when you're at 30 or more chances are that person has replayed the story. Either way Combat Styles doesn't push those players away from the game.

 

You just said it: little to no gameplay. You don't play that so that's why they are called visual novels, and it's not a bad thing at all.

 

Telltale games have gameplay, it's not the focus but it's there. You can't seem to wrap your head around them making a story-focused MMO that caters more to the individual player than groups of players but guess what that's exactly what they did. That's the game that exists.

 

Dude, you don't know a thing about those metrics just like I don't yet you sound so convinced that you are right))).

 

Except I'm not presenting the metrics as certainty and you're not considering them to be a possibility.

 

To you, it's unfathomable that an MMO would operate the way SWTOR, that the majority of it's player base cares more about the story than the combat, PVP, group content, etc, that Bioware would focus on satisfying that audience above all others but everything points to that being the case.

 

Bioware has for years now continued to streamline the game to appeal more and more to the solo PVE crowd not the group content crowd.

 

- When Bioware got rid of skill trees which audience benefited the most from that?

- When companions were overhauled what audience benefited the most from that?

- When planet syncing was introduced what audience benefited the most from that?

 

Look at the biggest changes Bioware has made to the game over the years and it becomes pretty obvious which parts of the game has received the most attention and continues to receive the most attention. Guess why that is?

 

Maybe, who knows, they should try something at least.

 

Yeah, that's true, like, why we should look somewhere outside the game for the info about the boss mechanics, how to PvP etc. It should be more intuitive, or maybe we should get some hints during the boss encounters, Dxun operation has something like that with those scientist's commentary.

 

We have that with Vet Flashpoints, the problem with that is there is no challenge in those activities and thus it becomes boring fast.

 

No, that is not the issue nor are all the mechanics of them super clear and obvious to everyone playing.

 

One of the issues FPs have always had is the time investment. Same goes for PVP in some instances. People know that by playing basically any group content they're committing to at least 10 or 20 mins of one thing before they can move onto the next thing.

 

There aren't many things in SWTOR that have a great loop, ie you finish a thing and then immediately want to do that thing again and can do so quickly both in the amount of time it takes to complete and start up again.

 

A game like Warframe is really good about this/that sort of thing because most of its missions never take more than 5 minutes to complete, it also works well as a power fantasy meaning many people enjoy being able to tear through enemies and aren't necessarily playing for or desiring a challenge.

 

If there were FPs that took 5 mins or PVP matches that were like "see who can get the most kills in 2 minutes with 1 hit kills enabled" do you know how many people would play them knowing how quick and easy of a time investment it would be?

 

You can still have the existing lengthier content too but the thing is that's really all that exists and people get bored with it not only because of how long they take to complete but because you're doing the same thing every time. You're attacking the same mobs in the same order using the same rotation in the same order with little to no variation because the game has never really allowed for that nor was it really ever designed to do that.

 

If you're in a situation where you're throwing a bunch of punches you're opponent is blocking or countering them you have the option to change up your tactics by kicking or grabbing them. SWTOR doesn't allow for that kind of variety you're stuck with punching and approaching pretty much ever combat encounter in PVE the same way.

 

Think about this. How is it that fighting games that only use 4 to 6 buttons can provide more depth, complexity, and variety in terms of combat than games that feature 100 different skills/abilities for their characters? Shouldn't that basically be impossible? "Well fighting games are specifically designed and focused around combat." but if SWTOR is a combat focus game like you say why is it so lacking in options (despite all the many abilities) when compared against so many other games whether they be in the same genre or not?

Edited July 30, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

A couple of posters have pointed out Steam Deck compatibility in other threads. I agree - designing SWTOR to be compatible with the Steam platform's hand-held game platform seems like the most rational reason for the redesign. The timing is right (December 2021 release). The platform is right (SWTOR continues to receive very favourable reviews on Steam, and reputedly gave the game a good boost in player numbers). The sales are right (the Steam Deck pre-sales are sold out into 2022).

 

I bet my new casino shades that the main reason for the redesign is to launch on the Steam Deck, and the PTS feedback is to try and work out how to keep each class 'feel' whilst at the same time meeting the design requirements for the Deck (I can't find defined information on the number buttons, key binding options etc).

 

All Steam games (and any PC game for that matter) will play on the Deck. I assume the most successful games will be the ones that play well on the controller of the Deck.

 

https://gamerant.com/steam-deck-2021-sold-out/

 

(PS please ignore my outdated signature. I might change it one day...)

Edited July 30, 2021 by DiamondDove

To you, it's unfathomable that an MMO would operate the way SWTOR, that the majority of it's player base cares more about the story than the combat...

You don't know what the majority cares more about but you like to think that it's the same thing as you do. The story is what makes this game stand out I get it, but to you, it's unfathomable to think that it is very likely since this is an MMO, the majority would like to do MMO stuff here.

- When Bioware got rid of skill trees which audience benefited the most from that?

Not the solo players, it was done to remove hybrids cause they were causing balance issues in PvP, solo players just got their customization option taken from them.

- When companions were overhauled what audience benefited the most from that?

Those people who couldn't care less about companions benefitted, those who didn't want to spend their time on their comps, gear them or choose a different comp for a different situation because that guy tanks and that guy heals

- When planet syncing was introduced what audience benefited the most from that?

Bioware benefited, suddenly there is much more content for everyone)

Think about this. How is it that fighting games that only use 4 to 6 buttons can provide more depth, complexity, and variety in terms of combat than games that feature 100 different skills/abilities for their characters? Shouldn't that basically be impossible? "Well fighting games are specifically designed and focused around combat." but if SWTOR is a combat focus game like you say why is it so lacking in options (despite all the many abilities) when compared against so many other games whether they be in the same genre or not?

How do players interact with the game most of the time? How many abilities do players have that are not used for combat? Even in story content, it's not like you just watch the cutscenes, choose dialogue options, and that's it. Can you complete your story without fighting anyone? (Some games have those options, this game doesn't). How can you pretend so much that you are not playing a combat-oriented multiplayer game?

It seems like you can't or don't want to add two things together: this game is combat-oriented and the combat isn't that good. One does not exclude another. The story is cool, but when everything revolves around fighting here you can't say this is all about a story.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Voroschuk

I'm not saying people can't or shouldn't suggest other things or pie in the sky ideas or anything like that but more that those shouldn't be the only ideas or discussions about a game.

 

Perhaps you can explain how "do not implement a gameplay overhaul that no one asked for or wants" is a pie in the sky idea.

 

Again -- whatever resources Bioware have at their disposal or want to devote to this game isn't the customer's problem. That's a business decision. If the game isn't profitable, kill it off (but we both know that's not the case by a long shot).

 

If they insist on offering less and less for the same price tag, they should expect to lose business in what is an extremely competitive market as their customers wise up. Business overheads are not something that us, as customers, should be understanding of or sympathetic to, for the same reason that we do not get dividends from video game companies when they are successful.

 

At the end of the day, this is me getting less value out of my sub fee, owing to simplified and less involved gameplay. I understand it may be good for them from a business standpoint. It is still bad for me. It is perfectly legitimate to voice this concern, and the need from many people to squelch this is frankly baffling.

A couple of posters have pointed out Steam Deck compatibility in other threads. I agree - designing SWTOR to be compatible with the Steam platform's hand-held game platform seems like the most rational reason for the redesign.

 

While the timing is very convenient for the concurrent release of the Steam Deck and the expansion, there are two major points that do not really fit that assumption.

 

Firstly - The Steam Deck was announced later than the upcoming expansion, which must have been in the works even earlier than that. Therefore Valve must have informed EA/BioWare about their new hardware project months or even a year in advance for it to coincide with the expansion. Judging by the articles and reactions from the insiders in the business, this was not the case and Valve pulled a surprise move with their announcement in order to make sure that there were no leaks beforehand.

 

Secondly - It is quite obvious that the only reason why BioWare shoehorned a new expansion into late 2021 is to meet the 10 year anniversary celebration window. All the things that they have announced so far make it clear that the meat of the expansion is quite meager compared to all the other expansions that have come out so far, Onslaught included, and that the rest of the content gets spread out well into 2022. I think it is safe to say that under normal circumstances we would have not gotten a new expansion this year, but the anniversary and the delays due to Coronavirus changed things considerably.