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Jedi Sentinel Feedback

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IIGII's Avatar


IIGII
09.03.2021 , 06:21 PM | #211
Hello, as a big fan of the Carnage Sith Marauder discipline, I would like to offer my feedback and suggestions regarding the 7.0 changes. I will use Combat Jedi Sentinel ability names since the 7.0 changes to Jedi Sentinel have not yet been mirrored to Sith Marauder.

Note: My feedback and suggestions are purely from the perspective of a Combat/Carnage player and I do not speak for the other disciplines.

Ability tree choices

Snaring Slash(20) - Add 20% healing reduction debuff in addition to the current effect to make up for the loss of Leg Slash - this way PvP players can keep the old Leg Slash effect without the extra button press.

Transcendence(20) - Shouldn't be a choice, should be baseline. It's an important part of Combat's identity of swift, quick strikes - aside from that, I really like the decision to merge it with the old Ardor utility.

Defensive Flourish(30) - I see no reason why would anyone ever pick this purely defensive passive over the other 2 dps-focused ones. It's not that amazing and you are giving up potentionally a lot of dps for a small damage reduction. It should either be baked into another passive or moved to another tier where it competes with other defensive abilities. Making a defensive passive compete with two damage passives makes no sense for a DPS class (unless the defensive passive is so busted that it's a must-have).

Trailblazer(60) - Super boring talent, especially since part of its damage is now baseline, it's now even less appealing. I can see picking it in some heavy AoE situations, but can't we make it more interesting? Merge it with some other lesser passive or utility to make it more interesting.

Blade Blitz(70) / Force Camouflage(70) - Please don't make us choose between these two abilites, I love both of them and I hate the idea of having to choose one over the other. Blade Blitz feels like it was made for Combat (and Attaru form) by quickly dashing around, it's exactly waht I'd expect from Ataru user. Force Camouflage is also one of the reasons why I live Sentinel so much, it's so versatile and it just feels good to use. If your goal is to reduce the amount of defensive abilites, make Blade Blitz (or Force Camouflage) baseline and put Saber Ward there as a choice instead.

---

Baseline abilites

Force Stasis (Force Choke) - Please bring it back. It's one of the reasons why I chose to play Sith Warrior in the first place, Force Choke is just so iconic to the Dark Side. From a gameplay perspective, it was a really good stun ability (and also useful as a 2nd interrupt) and I am really sad to see it removed.

Force Sweep - Since the theme of 7.0 is ability pruning, this one is a perfect candidate. It serves absolutely no purpose for Combat, it's pointless to use in your rotation since it doesn't proc Ataru like Cyclone Strike does and it doesn't benefit from any passives like the Watchman does. It would be weird to delete it for just one discipline I guess, but honestly it might as well not exist for Combat.

Pacify - I don't mind removing this ability, it has little to no uses in PvE but I've noticed some players say it's a good abiltiy in PvP and I can definitely see why. So why not make it available in the new ability tree? In my opinion this is exactly what the ability tree should do, offer actual choices. It could take Transcendence's current place and that would make level 20 choices more meaningful, especially for PvP.

Blade Barrage - Another candidate for pruning, I don't remember ever using this ability in my rotation, it's bad as a filler since it breaks your Blade Rush hyper stacks and Combat has no passive that improves it to make it worth (there is one new passive at the 20 level tier on PTS that makes it deal bonus damage, so maybe it's going to be worth it? Although it currently competes with Transcendence so I don't see people picking it unless Transcendence is made baseline).

Saber Ward - I feel like this ability should be a talent or simply removed. Some people like it, it makes you feel like in the movies by deflecting blaster shots but honestly it doesn't feel good. It's rng-based defensive that is mostly used for the Force/Tech damage absorb anyways. My personal opinion is that it should be swapped with either Guarded by the Force(70) or Force Camouflage(70) on the ability tree - this way Sentinel still has that one good defensive baseline but not the boring Saber Ward.



Overall, I have to say, I am really satisfied with the new ability tree system and even though it's an upopular opinion, I think that ability pruning is a good thing. I know that people like to press buttons and watch fancy animations but at a certain point it becomes a chore to press all these buttons for abilities that could be easily made into passives (or merged).

Regarding the Combat discipline as a whole, I really like the direction that 7.0 is taking - it's solidifying its identity as a "nimble and quick, fast and deadly attacks" discipline, which is exactly what I'd expect from a discipline that utilizies Ataru form - dashing around, quick and fast attacks (this also why I'd like to see Transcendence and Blade Blitz baseline, it's just so iconic to Combat's identity).

Ugolino's Avatar


Ugolino
09.03.2021 , 08:08 PM | #212
Are you speaking as a non-ranked and primarily vet FP player, perchance?

captianpenpen's Avatar


captianpenpen
09.05.2021 , 04:21 PM | #213
This comes from someone who has never done anything more than vet FPs and solo content on sentinels/marauders.

As for the specs:

Watchman:

15: Juyo Melt is pretty good. Melting Center looks good, but the 4x damage seems to not trigger or I couldn't tell. The 10 stacks of Centering helps trigger Zen quicker and more often. Sounds good in group content for some more offheals.

20: Transcendence should be a given ability. More reasoning below.

30: Not sure how I feel about Force Lash. Flaming Wave is great. It adds more aoe, when you had to wait for Sweep to go off cd and reapply the dots before using Sweep again.

35: Force Clarity should be a given, since the gear set for it works better on Watchman. Burning Center should be something more, but like Melting Center, it does help use Zen more. Burning Zen sounds good, but wouldn't shine if Force Clarity is an option and not a given ability.

50/60: choices are fine. Need more movement in fights? Double Leap. More defenses? Take that one. For 60, Cyclone isn't as useful as it is for Combat. Jedi Adjudicator and Zealous Ward are good for soloing.

70: I would swap Guarded with Stoic, personally. Stoic is far more useful for solo sentinels/marauders than Guarded is (I have not used Guarded, but players who do use it would take it)

80: The choices are not great as the other levels. If Stoic stays where it is now, then that is the only useful option for solo players.

Combat:

15: Puncture sounds great, but it would require positioning a lot more and with mobs liking to surround you, it would be a pain to make the best out of it. But in mob heavy fights, it would work better. The cd reset doesn't look appealing. If it did something more than just an armor debuff. For Driving Lance, it would work better if you had a way to track your movement speed.

20: Transcendence should be a given ability, since Combat/Carnage always lack as much defensives as the other specs.

30: I like the fact that using Blade Rush boosts your DR. Can't test Rush Down (obviously), but it has the issue as Driving Lance, but with the added issue of clarification. How fast you are moving when using it (like you need to be circling the target for the damage boost) or is it like Driving Lance? Valor Blade sounds good. But Valorous Call is not good enough to warrant a cd reduction per Blade Rush use. If Valorous Call did more than just max out Centering, it would be better.

35: I am sure others have said Force Clarity should be baseline/a given ability. I am on the opposite side. It should stay a choice for Combat, even if its just because of the gear set for Force Clarity. It is very weird on sentinels/marauders. Swiftness sounds good, but the duration should be increased by at least a second (miss one or two crits and it resets, not to mention how useful the speed boost is for Lance and Blade Rush), but not sure how balanced that would be.

50: Same as Watchman.

60: Trailblazer is good. A solo Combat player doesn't lose out on any DR boosts or defensives. But if the free swap stays, they can take Zealous Ward if needed.

70: Same as Watchman.

80: See level 70.

Neonbamboo's Avatar


Neonbamboo
09.11.2021 , 02:34 AM | #214
For Watchman sentinel, please change Overload Saber into a buff that boosts our dot damage and adds a heal over time on our characters. No more melee attacks to inflict this worthless dot please. No more weird mechanics that make playing Watchman tedious with spamming redundant skills. Also add a dot to blade storm just like in Vigilance.

Beyrahl's Avatar


Beyrahl
09.13.2021 , 07:54 AM | #215
Quote: Originally Posted by igonnakillya View Post
[/SPOILER]
ALL THREE SPECS SHOULD NOT BE IN LINE WITH EACH OTHER. Iíll say it again.
ALL THREE SPECS SHOULD NOT BE IN LINE WITH EACH OTHER. One more time.
ALL THREE SPECS SHOULD NOT BE IN LINE WITH EACH OTHER.

Letís use the transitive property here. If Transcendence = Combat/Concentration then Inspiration = Watchman. Inspiration is ESSENTIAL nay REQUIRED in group content for the Watchman. I stated this above that it should remain BASELINE because the amount it helps your OPs group during PvE and PvP content. Obviously we know, Combat and Concentration Jediís canít really use Inspiration but Watchman certainly can and should. It buffs Watchman all around and is a part of every single group encounter ever.

I donít believe Force Camo should be removed but retooled in a better way.

I like that each specialization/Combat Style is different. The point is to make your character unique in the Star Wars universe, not have a bunch of copy/paste drones running around the galaxy. How boring would the game be then?
I am sorry that I didn't make it as clear as I wanted it to be. But I had no intentions of them being completely similar and you really stuck onto that instead of seeing the bigger picture. There are specific things that other trees are getting that are - from a PvP standpoint, too good to not let all three have it. Which would always leave a rather big difference in varying levels of PvP. While there should be differences in their different specs, I do not feel any of the specs should suffer because of ones the superior by far. For example, look at fury/Concentration in PvP right now compared to the other two. I do PvE but I am mainly only focused on PvP, I have played all three specs extensively and have done so for a long time.

So yes I know what berserk/zen does on watchman, of course I know you mean no harm. The things I have proposed are to increase its viability and make it more competitive with other DPS specs. As currently on PTS there is a huge gap, clearly we're not on a final stage so it's hard to truly compare. If you look back at previous expansions marauder/sentinel has had an auto critical on Annihilate/Merciless slash with 6.0 launch it was gone.
I think criticality should either come to all three or become a baseline thing to zen/berserk. Not having something in your kit reliably hit anything at all really increases the RNG of the spec, not just for PvP but also for parsing and raid boss encounters.
If you look at our counterpart of pure DPS classes, they have an ability that gives them auto criticals on their main abilities in all three specs. Including an accuracy buff button, we do not. So not only do we deal with missing our biggest abilities often in PvP we don't even have an option to auto crit them.

There are plenty of ways for the devs to make impactful and good but balanced options, having one or two that are the same when it comes to pre-existing things. Well, I don't feel like that's a bad thing as it's generic in option already.
Force camouflage being redesigned would be cool, a lot of work to do probably. Most of my ideas were designed to be the least effort to make it more functional.

As for the inspiration thing, I get it. But, there are times you do not need it, sure in operations you do but in Arena? You can't even use it. There are things that you could give up to have your raid buff that I do not feel would break the class in any way. While I view from a PvP perspective where this ability alone, is lesser used I am still trying to keep PvE in mind, to me, it sounds like you want to make less impactful decisions as a whole for PvE.
Though I would love bloodthirst or inspiration to not take zen instead of having Valorous call/Frenzy.

As for the spec being a single target, there are AoE options and spiteful saber does a good job at making the spec feel more fluid on a single target. However, a spiteful saber with just the slightest change of allowing sweeping slash to also refresh rupture instead of just slash would have made it an AoE monster. For all three specs, this is definitely the heavier AoE focused. While what I said isn't out of context I sort of didn't think it out much for labeling's sake.

My favorite version of annihilation/watchman was 2.0. Force rend in my opinion has always made the rotation slightly off, which is part of why I like spiteful saber as much as I do. It really reminds me of the old annihilation/watchman flow minus 0meter leap, which I miss a lot.

But thank you so much for actually reading it. I spent a lot of time on it and testing on PTS, I consider it a win at least someone has read it. I do make some content so if you want to see what kind of player I am those video links I initially added explaining accuracy in PvP is my channel.
I assume you read the defense chance rework? Then how it'd impact something like transcendence and predation plus saber ward? I would love to know how people would feel about that - as it does tackle way more than just this class but as a huge issue as a whole.
(also, edit. Thoughts of force clarity/Furious power? I hate it personally, the GCD video explains it way better. It's generic no? Should go yes?)

Ryu_Hyabuza's Avatar


Ryu_Hyabuza
09.13.2021 , 11:45 AM | #216
I think that the Sentinel/Marauder changes overall felt good at the start of the PTS, but seeing other classes as of now makes them feel extremely underwhelming.

For the base of the class, itís identity doesnít seem to translate compared to the original class over the years. It has consistently lost abilities unique to its class or specs, while hardly gaining anything to compare in the meantime. Most of the changes for the class recently havenít felt as innovative as other classes or specs. Mad Dash for example, was created as a counter to the amount of mobility in the game. Yet it has double the cooldown of a Mercenaryís 2-charge rocket out with less benefits and can still be damaged through. I am okay with Sentinels/Marauders being forced to choose between their defensives or having them taken away entirely, but from what I have seen it doesnít look like there is much to replace the things that are being lost in regards to damage. The defensive choices being given for the level 70 choices donít feel right, as it will leave the class with a maximum of 4 DCDs (2 of which being chosen, Predation being nerfed on top of that, and no Obfuscate or Ruthless Aggressor from what I have seen), while Snipers for example, get 6 DCDs as a base, keep their 3 rolls if they get Countermeasures to pair with Imperial Preparation, and still get to choose 1 more between Teleport/Bubble. On top of having options for their Laze Target/Ambush to reset, or AoE Ambush + Slow, which does the same thing that damage options for Sentinels/Marauders do with more benefits, without any loss from their defensives. The amount of damage output that Sentinels/Marauders would have to put out as a counter would have to be massive for all specs, especially ones that arenít Fury/Concentration because they have no form of a counter to negate any of the knock backs, slows, roots, etc.

For Concentration/Fury, it is in the best place currently (in regards to pvp) because of its utility in Gravity Vortex and the 0-10 meter leap off of Obliterate. The changes being given overall are beneficial for the class, especially if Defel Spliced Genes is being taken away, but I donít think that they are necessarily needed compared to what the other specs have. Its sustain/filler DPS abilities hit harder than most strong hitting abilities on both of the other specs that the class has. Adding abilities/passives that give the spec a higher chance to survive (Obliterate mini saber ward for example) as well as higher damage choices (like Raging Burst AoE) feels unneeded when the other two seem to be a bit left behind.

For Watchman/Annihilation, the class overall feels lacking. Even currently it doesnít feel like a rewarding class to play in damage or skill. Skill-wise, the rage management compared to Vengeance/Vigilance is punishing. Outside of times where I am being stunned/slowed or taking damage to build rage, rage management has to be perfect. Whereas Veng/Vig has 3 (4 if you count Vengeful Slam) rage builders outside of leap, as well as only having 2-3 abilities that actually consume rage in the specís rotation. Compared to the 2 rage builders that Watchman/Annihilation has. This does create a bit of a skill gap, but doesnít create as big of an outcome as it should be, and could be solved easily by adding in a base to the spec again or at least the option for a 0-30 meter leap. If interrupts were a worry at that point, you could change it into the interrupt only being effective from 10-30 meters. And if not that solution, another solution of lessening the rage spent on Vicious Slash while under the effects of the Spiteful Saber tactical.
As for the damage output of the spec, it is currently carried by its single-target tactical, and still loses out to other classes/specs (Lightning, Pyrotech, AP, etc.) consistently in raids. Being the melee pure-DPS class, it should be more rewarding to play. Especially considering that it is the only class without any significant self heals and it has to sit within melee range of a boss. On top of that, it has no payoff any more. The average that Annihilate/Merciless Slash has done for me in raids is under a 30% crit rate, sometimes being as low as 16% on boss pulls, and still doesnít do as much as it probably should. The spec feels like it is entirely sustain/filler abilities. It could be solved by adding in some form of an auto-crit for the hardest hitting abilities after Berserk/Zen once per minute or so to prevent spamming, or it could scale with the amount of dots that you have on a target, increasing its flat damage by X% per dot on a target, creating a way for Annihilate to be more rewarding in both pve/pvp without it being a guaranteed big hitter for people and chunking most of a targetís health without at least somewhat of a rotation. And speaking of pvp, the class has no beneficial piece to it that makes it more desirable than any other spec in the class or other dot specs in the game. Itís dot spreading feels small, and dots quickly fall off creating no pressure over time, while it has no single target pressure as well with white damage abilities missing way more than they should or hitting for small amounts. I hit harder with my Vicious Slash in the Jugg tank spec with DPS gear than I ever have with the same ability in Marauder/Sentinel, with the same gear set up.

For Combat/Carnage, I donít have much input currently other than its damage output and usage in pvp. The first piece is that defense chance makes it nearly impossible to sustain a high level of quick burst on people, since all but 1 of the abilities the spec uses is white damage (Though that is a problem that all marauder specs have) which is worrisome to have to counter, especially without a stun to negate the defense chance that people have. With the scale of the sustain abilities and the chance of missing while-damage abilities, its TTK on people is about the same as Fury/Concentration could do in most situations, which shouldnít be the case considering its role as the gameís ďspeed specĒ. As for the other worry, I am excited for the speed build options, but concerned for how it will mesh with the rest of pvp. If Sentinels/Marauders are the only class being left without the option of stuns and having less root/slow breaks, the way it scales with speed wonít be viable at all. Some form of a root/stun resistance would be required to survive, though I am unsure of how to implement that.

LordCamTheGreat's Avatar


LordCamTheGreat
09.13.2021 , 01:33 PM | #217
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryu_Hyabuza View Post
The defensive choices being given for the level 70 choices donít feel right, as it will leave the class with a maximum of 4 DCDs (2 of which being chosen, Predation being nerfed on top of that, and no Obfuscate or Ruthless Aggressor from what I have seen), while Snipers for example, get 6 DCDs as a base, keep their 3 rolls if they get Countermeasures to pair with Imperial Preparation, and still get to choose 1 more between Teleport/Bubble.
Snipers actually only have 3 DCDs baseline. Roll, shield probe and diversion.
Imperial preparation doesn't reset roll baseline.
They can gain back evasion through an opt in passive which turns their threat drop into evasion + roll reset.
The only way you get 3 rolls is by taking this passive.

Sentinel has definitely been over-pruned. The next PTS patch is coming sometime this week, so hopefully changes have been made to all the current combat styles alongside any new ones based on the feedback we've given.
Jack of all classes, master of some. Always remember that cake is a lie.

Ryu_Hyabuza's Avatar


Ryu_Hyabuza
09.13.2021 , 05:28 PM | #218
I saw that for the Countermeasures + Evasion combination, and implied that when I mentioned the 3 rolls with the Imperial Preparation Countermeasures reset. Still have to make the choice to get it which lessens the amount overall, but it is a low level option left to Snipers that also gets paired with movement impairment immunity that will work better than Predation, whereas the level 70 choices for Marauder make you choose between the 3 strongest DCDs available to the class. The baseline for Snipers when I was referring to it was Entrench, Diversion, Roll, Shield Probe, Cover Pulse, and then Imperial Preparation because it resets everything else. The only real DCD it feels like they are losing is Evasion from the combination (and roll heal if you want to count that being taken out) because for raids/pvp people will easily choose between the two options given at level 70 for the playstyle they prefer. It would make an extremely good hard counter to Marauders overall, which would be okay to have in the game for overall balance, but seeing how other classes are being handled makes it seem like Marauder is going to be really punishing and I am worried it will become unplayable in pvp specifically, along with losing out on a lot for pve as well compared to the utility of other classes and the options that will be left available.

LordCamTheGreat's Avatar


LordCamTheGreat
09.13.2021 , 07:52 PM | #219
I personally wouldn't count a knockback as a DCD, nor entrench since from what I remember on the PTS, there isn't even an option to reduce AOE damage with it anymore - but I guess it comes down to what you count a defensive cooldown as, technically predation is a DCD because of the small defence chance increase it gives. Also even though the evasion+roll reset passive is a low level option, unless snipers gain their roll at that level, they only get roll at level 51 which is much later.

In a duel vs a marauder who no longer has any CC, entrench would literally do nothing and predation could be used to counter the knockback and then easily chase a triple rolling sniper with its 80% move speed. In the process of triple rolling, the sniper would then have wasted their evasion because evasion overlaps with roll immunity (also as you pointed out, no more roll healing). Evasion also can't last for 5 seconds anymore like it can on live. Yes you'd have to opt into predation in the first place - but I don't think I'd ever not choose it over the other two options.

At least one of the Sentinel's level 70 options (preferably camo imo) should become baseline with obfuscate/blind ability being reintroduced and replacing its slot. That way Sentinels gain back one of their unique defensive options and can choose between a dash, near immunity to damage for a few seconds or targeted accuracy reduction.
Jack of all classes, master of some. Always remember that cake is a lie.

KaellSolaris's Avatar


KaellSolaris
09.16.2021 , 04:09 AM | #220
With the PTS up one again, did somebody see any changes in the sentinel Build ?