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Questions to the Player Base. Carrying peeps through pug HM/Nim Ops.


Chelz

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With this last patch BW has forced us all to do content we may not want to do for gear. We have seen an influx of people running HM ops that either didn’t raid before, do not want to do them, or just do not have the skills to be there in the first place but are forced. Again, this is mostly BW’s fault. As you all know, there have been an almost non-stop barrage of EV/KP/Nef groups mainly because these are the easiest ones to complete.

 

Been in many raids were the top two dps, or one for that matter, carry the rest of the dps through the raid. If anyone says anything either during or after the fight that the lower dps need to pick it up or their dps was not good enough, they are considered toxic or elitist, so more times than not, they don’t say anything and just try to get through the raid.

 

Here are my questions: What matter’s more, just completing the operation anyway you can, or teaching people that they are part of a group, and that everyone in that group needs to pull their weight? Is it fair to the top two or three people to do all the work and everyone get a reward? What should, if anything, be done about this?

 

 

How do you all feel about carrying peeps through raids? Would love to hear what you guys think.

Thanks.

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it depends. does whoever being carried know they are being carried? also are they willing to listen to the advice and actually improve? i know a lot of people that go either way on both issues. you have some people that don't know how hard they are being carried and think they are performing adequately, whereas they are just doing enough to be carried. and when you try to help someone, sometimes they take it as an attack or think they know it all, even when they really don't.

 

if people know they are being carried, but are willing to improve themselves, then its great for everyone. over time, they will get better and things will go smoother in the long run. how much time you give them depends on the group though. some groups are far more willing to give someone time to improve, but others are not as forgiving.

 

even if they get cut from a team, they can still continue to work on their skills and get better and find another group eventually.

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You're complaining about the players in PUG groups, of which you are one :confused:

 

If you're not making these groups and you don't have an organised team to run with you get what you get.

 

If you ARE making these groups then you need to decide if anyones performance is a major problem. You're only going to see these players for the next 15m-1h so your major concern is the total performance of the group.

Edited by Gyronamics
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It really just depends, as the operation leader you can kick the people who you consider too bad, it's not toxic or elitist you simply value your and the other peoples time.

 

If somebody doesn't value their own time, by not learning their class, they don't value your time either, why bother explaining anything to said person?

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It's the same thing as GSF and afk'ers - if you're not trying, you have no reason to do the content, period.

 

Honestly... it completely baffles me how rude and selfish so many people are, to actually think it's ok to join a group and be useless.

 

That being said, if you're going to pug it, you have to expect that people will not necessarily meet the minimum requirements/standards. That's been the case in pugs in MMOs forever.

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Here are my questions: What matter’s more, just completing the operation anyway you can, or teaching people that they are part of a group, and that everyone in that group needs to pull their weight? Is it fair to the top two or three people to do all the work and everyone get a reward? What should, if anything, be done about this?

What matters more? Whatever floats your boat basically. And however it suits your mood.

Some days you just want to do an OP for grins and it doesn't really matter (to you) if the OP 'succeeds' as long as you have fun . Other days you want everyone to 'do their job' because you really want that piece of gear or that 'shiny'.

Some people finally get up enough courage to join an OP group only to find out they need to gear up more or whatever, and get discouraged by negative comments from 'group nazis'. (Leading to longer wait times for GF.)

 

There isn't anything that 'needs to be done' about this other than some people really really need to keep in mind that it is a [redacted] PUG!

And there already is a solution - join a guild that does OPs. If you can't or won't join such a guild, suck it up. 😂

Edited by JediQuaker
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There's nothing worse than going into HM EV with 5 DPS and watching the first boss enrage. I've seen the tank out parse DPS and I've seen DPS with 328 gear parse under 9k on that boss. I've seen a carry in pretty much every HM EV I have run and I'll usually let it slide. However, when you have two DPS parsing 22k and three parsing around 10k (or under), someone will need to get booted.

 

I think most people just don't care or know what HM ops are. Yesterday we had to kick someone in 238 gear from our group. They didn't even buy the 320 gear on the vendor (not that that would have been enough for HM anyway).

Edited by Screaming_Ziva
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Here are my questions: What matter’s more, just completing the operation anyway you can, or teaching people that they are part of a group, and that everyone in that group needs to pull their weight? Is it fair to the top two or three people to do all the work and everyone get a reward? What should, if anything, be done about this?

 

So here's the thing. The frequently farmed PUG HM/NiM Ops (KP, EV, NiM Nefra) are run by necessity, not because people are in love with those operations. With that in mind, as long as the group is progressing with minimal fuss, I don't mind carrying weaker dps or healers. I dislike farm mentality, but this is where we are, and as long as bosses die expediently and the heals are keeping up, I'm not going to raise a fuss in chat with people I may never see again.

 

On the other hand, if bosses are enraging, or if the group is not surviving with visibly low heals, then that should be addressed. It's not fair to the group as a whole to keep working at a hopeless cause when the problem can be solved with a replacement. Responsibility there falls to the ops lead.

 

PUGs are about 'good enough,' in my mind. Most people aren't even going to read chat beyond the bare minimum. In an ideal world, people would know their capabilities and only join if they were prepared. But we don't live in that world. Is it fair to individuals who are carrying? No, but... it's a PUG. As long as stuff dies it's all kind of "whatever."

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I've always been confused about people who get bent out of shape about people sucking in a PUG group.

 

I think the best perspective is to think of the people in the PUG as unpaid volunteers. You want to be nice so you'll still be able to get people to PUG again in the future. Tips can occasionally (rarely) be fine, but if you're demanding, they'll just have a bad experience and not volunteer next time.

 

If you're doing easy content that can tolerate crappy players, then just get it done and don't worry about it. If you want a group that's all super amazing, form a group with people you know that are great. If you don't know enough people to make a great group, then don't take it out on the volunteers that made it possible for you to play at all.

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The three examples the OP mentioned can be completed with 6 players.

 

If you one shot everything there is not an issue. Perhaps the challenge gives the veteran players a reason to focus. The difficult run could a team-building, friend-discovering experience. If the group can't seven person it, perhaps the issue isn't a single sandbag.

 

I pick teaching over completing.

Yes it is fair, everyone pays the same price in time.

Nothing.

I do not like being carried or carrying others.

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I've pugged for 10 years as heals in this game. You won't hear a peep from me about player performance, 3-5 boss wipes and the group acknowledges and disbands mutually.

 

I will fight, grind and help as many as possible.

 

Here's the problem...

 

When the game is in such a horrid state, you log on dissappointed and irritated. So any small mishaps could be a trigger.

 

This has nothing to do with players, and everything to do with developers who refuse to follow the dream of previous devs, a true mmorpg experience.

 

Instead we get solo swoop riding, solo feast of prosperity, a scam expansion with a trailer and devstreams that promise much more.

 

It's the lies and lack of performance from developers who are creating a toxic playerbase.

 

(Padme voice) Bioware, you're going down a path I can't follow, you're breaking my heart.

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As long as we don't enrage on the boss then the groups I have been in keep moving. If people are clearly not ready for hm/nim then they probably already know it so should not be surprised if a group kicks them when their subpar performance is preventing success. If you want to just be causal, not learn your class, or any kind of reasonable rotation then you do NOT belong in hm/nim.

 

For ev hm though it is more forgiving. I get more annoyed by people who don't want to click panel on puzzle, pulls the entire cavern of adds, or is just plain dumb working their way down platforms on soa or kiting their lightning balls.

 

Example of dps that are not ready for hm:

https://imgur.com/a/WjOXhM3

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Oh Well.....

 

BW is forcing us to do NIM OP's to get our gear...

 

Deal with it. We don't like it any more than you do but, too bad. BW saw fit to make NON-OP Players do NIM OP's to gear our toons, so now you have to deal with it too.

 

I would much rather NOT have to deal with the Elitist NIM OP primadonna's and just gear my character the way I have always done before. But do to the Whining from the a fore mentioned Elitist NIM OP primadonna's, you now have to deal with us in your NIM OP's just so we can gear our characters...

 

Karma is a Cruel [redacted]...

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Oh Well.....

 

BW is forcing us to do NIM OP's to get our gear...

 

Deal with it. We don't like it any more than you do but, too bad. BW saw fit to make NON-OP Players do NIM OP's to gear our toons, so now you have to deal with it too.

 

I would much rather NOT have to deal with the Elitist NIM OP primadonna's and just gear my character the way I have always done before. But do to the Whining from the a fore mentioned Elitist NIM OP primadonna's, you now have to deal with us in your NIM OP's just so we can gear our characters...

 

Karma is a Cruel [redacted]...

 

So let me get this straight so I understand it. You do not feel like you should have to pull your own weight in group content and I should just deal with it correct? You feel that you should be carried through. Who is the elitist?

 

Everyone that replied. thank you. Your opinions are welcome.

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I kick them from the runs HM has a certain requirement you don't meet that in skill you are gone then Nightmare it's an instant kick there is no time to carry sand bags through anything guilds can help players but If i'm running a raid I will boot players that don't preform now if it's 1 k dps off that's fine but when say 17k is required and you are pulling 8k then you have to go sorry but you are wasting every other players time in the group and don't deserve to be carried now some guilds will offer services for sales that is where you need to go. But if it's a SM then no issues only in harder content it's hard for a reason so get used to it.
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Oh Well.....

 

BW is forcing us to do NIM OP's to get our gear...

 

Deal with it. We don't like it any more than you do but, too bad. BW saw fit to make NON-OP Players do NIM OP's to gear our toons, so now you have to deal with it too.

 

I would much rather NOT have to deal with the Elitist NIM OP primadonna's and just gear my character the way I have always done before. But do to the Whining from the a fore mentioned Elitist NIM OP primadonna's, you now have to deal with us in your NIM OP's just so we can gear our characters...

 

Karma is a Cruel [redacted]...

 

There's a big difference between doing a nim op and just doing 1 farm boss. with that attitude, you won't be able to do either with much success, i believe. in either case, if the numbers are not there, then be prepared to be asked to leave or be kicked. they don't have to deal with you in their op, if you're not even gonna try to pull the minimum acceptable numbers.

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Oh Well.....

 

BW is forcing us to do NIM OP's to get our gear...

 

Deal with it. We don't like it any more than you do but, too bad. BW saw fit to make NON-OP Players do NIM OP's to gear our toons, so now you have to deal with it too.

 

I would much rather NOT have to deal with the Elitist NIM OP primadonna's and just gear my character the way I have always done before. But do to the Whining from the a fore mentioned Elitist NIM OP primadonna's, you now have to deal with us in your NIM OP's just so we can gear our characters...

 

Karma is a Cruel [redacted]...

 

Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Also, there's a difference between an elitist and someone who expects people to actually try a minimum. 9k dps on a boss is not "trying." Joining a nim Op without being ready for it (at least google bosses or ask for strat and learn your rotation) is basically voluntarily wasting people's time.

 

You're probably one of those people who afk in GSF or throw games so they finish faster and blame the "elitists" and BW when people complain about it instead of acting like an adult (which I'm guessing you're not) and take responsibility for your selfish actions.

 

I agree that it's completely lame that it's the only way to get the gear but it's not an excuse to behave that way.

Edited by Pricia
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i think we have a combination of different things at the moment.

 

- 6.0 was to easy -

with 6.0 there was nearly no operation in veteran mode, you couldn't run with 4-6 ppl

without a problem, if you knew how your class and the tactics works.

now you need certain dps to kill the last boss and the most just can't hit these numbers,

even with fully golden augmented 330s.

 

- in 6.0 it was okay not to finish an operation -

with the changes in 7.0 you need to kill every boss in the operation,

to get the reward at the end. so it is hard to find players who don't care

about the reward and help you out, if some needed to be replaced.

i even have seen PUGs when ppl stucked on the first boss, because you

could see that the dps is so low, that you maybe could kill the first one,

but the third one would be the last, for sure. and to be honest, i did that, too,

because i don't wanted my ID to be ruined by ppl not able to play their class.

 

- in 7.0 you can't hide -

with the changes to the combat log, you can't hide anymore. before the change,

you didn't know if the complete group was a bit weak or if it was a single person.

and it really doesn't matters. now when some dps is needed and you can't carry

below 10k dps anymore, this creates some anger.

 

- self reflexion is way under 9000 -

since 7.0 i had dozents of discussions with people, why we wouldn't invite them.

and here i don't mean the obvious thing, like an operative who claims to be a range dps,

but many ppl who really think that they are good players, even if you have seen them

in other content hardly underperforming for that content. and because 6.0 was so easy,

and they were carried through veteran operations even in 6.0, they really think that they

are good players, ignoring any numbers they get out of starparse for example.

or another example. i got in a flashpoint with 3 ppl streaming it on twitch, who claimed

to be okayish players, founder title shown to show their competence in that game.

it was just vet, but there was not a single boss i didn't had more than double the damage

done of all three of the others combined. their peak player did 5.3k dps. and they still think

that they are good in this game and try to teach others how to play their class...

but i didn't said anything, just: thx bb.

 

i'm just tired of that. and i'm tired of carrying ppl through content they never would finish

if they would run it with ppl on their level and always looking for excuses and not willing

to learn something new.

 

one day a group offered 150mill for each tank to tank nefra nim. my tank partner an me

though... hey easy money for some minutes, and we both know how to tank the boss.

yeah. we had a merc and an operative healer. both didn't hit 15k HPS and didn't know

how to cleanse ppl. but they only needed to cleanse one tank every 2nd time and themselfs.

none of the dps cleansed themself, even after telling them to do so. the healers didn't do it too.

their best dps hit 14k. 2 dps were under the tanks with 6k and 7k dps. all were geared with

326 blues, exept their top dps with full 330s. long story short... we just farmed repair costs.

 

and again.... i'm just tired of that. so no PUGs anymore.

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Oh Well.....

 

BW is forcing us to do NIM OP's to get our gear...

 

Deal with it. We don't like it any more than you do but, too bad. BW saw fit to make NON-OP Players do NIM OP's to gear our toons, so now you have to deal with it too.

 

I would much rather NOT have to deal with the Elitist NIM OP primadonna's and just gear my character the way I have always done before. But do to the Whining from the a fore mentioned Elitist NIM OP primadonna's, you now have to deal with us in your NIM OP's just so we can gear our characters...

 

Karma is a Cruel [redacted]...

 

#1 You don't have a reason to gear.

#2 330 Gear isn't increasing your damage.

#3 You are not forced to do anything

#4 Nefra NiM is not a NiM operation

#5 Stop calling us elitist, maybe we are just expecting an average performance

 

For all I care you could've gear, wouldn't change anything. If you think it does... well stop being delusional.

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i think we have a combination of different things at the moment.

 

- 6.0 was to easy -

with 6.0 there was nearly no operation in veteran mode, you couldn't run with 4-6 ppl

without a problem, if you knew how your class and the tactics works.

now you need certain dps to kill the last boss and the most just can't hit these numbers,

even with fully golden augmented 330s.

 

- in 6.0 it was okay not to finish an operation -

with the changes in 7.0 you need to kill every boss in the operation,

to get the reward at the end. so it is hard to find players who don't care

about the reward and help you out, if some needed to be replaced.

i even have seen PUGs when ppl stucked on the first boss, because you

could see that the dps is so low, that you maybe could kill the first one,

but the third one would be the last, for sure. and to be honest, i did that, too,

because i don't wanted my ID to be ruined by ppl not able to play their class.

 

- in 7.0 you can't hide -

with the changes to the combat log, you can't hide anymore. before the change,

you didn't know if the complete group was a bit weak or if it was a single person.

and it really doesn't matters. now when some dps is needed and you can't carry

below 10k dps anymore, this creates some anger.

 

- self reflexion is way under 9000 -

since 7.0 i had dozents of discussions with people, why we wouldn't invite them.

and here i don't mean the obvious thing, like an operative who claims to be a range dps,

but many ppl who really think that they are good players, even if you have seen them

in other content hardly underperforming for that content. and because 6.0 was so easy,

and they were carried through veteran operations even in 6.0, they really think that they

are good players, ignoring any numbers they get out of starparse for example.

or another example. i got in a flashpoint with 3 ppl streaming it on twitch, who claimed

to be okayish players, founder title shown to show their competence in that game.

it was just vet, but there was not a single boss i didn't had more than double the damage

done of all three of the others combined. their peak player did 5.3k dps. and they still think

that they are good in this game and try to teach others how to play their class...

but i didn't said anything, just: thx bb.

 

i'm just tired of that. and i'm tired of carrying ppl through content they never would finish

if they would run it with ppl on their level and always looking for excuses and not willing

to learn something new.

 

one day a group offered 150mill for each tank to tank nefra nim. my tank partner an me

though... hey easy money for some minutes, and we both know how to tank the boss.

yeah. we had a merc and an operative healer. both didn't hit 15k HPS and didn't know

how to cleanse ppl. but they only needed to cleanse one tank every 2nd time and themselfs.

none of the dps cleansed themself, even after telling them to do so. the healers didn't do it too.

their best dps hit 14k. 2 dps were under the tanks with 6k and 7k dps. all were geared with

326 blues, exept their top dps with full 330s. long story short... we just farmed repair costs.

 

and again.... i'm just tired of that. so no PUGs anymore.

 

Very well said sir. It is a double edged sword however, on the one hand you didn't want to carry the 6.0 heros, but without them you wouldn't be able to pug in the first place.

 

I thought, wow with content this hard people would finally play on a level were you could consider them good, but what emded up happening is that they got their 330 realized content was "overtuned" amd quit. The reality is that all OPs besides Gods and Dxun are a complete joke, even with 7.0 scaling, if you actually tryhard. Sure if you do double arsenal you might run into DMG problems, but let's face it: the reason you have more class diversity on fights like Apex and Sister is because you have to, you don't have to play a certain setup in idk dread guards because you can yolo quad fury and destroy the boss, there is no reason to not do that. I'd like to see groups do quad meele kills on Apex, or 2 DPS oper for trandos, or hatred on sisters - you HAVE to play a decent setup for these bosses, making them actually hard.

 

If you don't like wiping in previously cleared content why are you still here? Actually answer this question for yourself, you know new content will be... delayed, old content is what keeps this game alive and you always knew that, it keeps gotten achievements and mounts relevant. If you could solo brontes would I still you one of my 43 wings? Hell nah.

 

I do realize this is a VERY elitist opinion and making NiM content unclearable for 85% of the previous NiM population isn't the best direction for the game - I presonally LOVE 7.0, people finally earn the punishment for their lazyness. People who keep progging and keep improving will be 50x times better than a 6.0 hero.

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Oh Well.....

 

BW is forcing us to do NIM OP's to get our gear...

 

Deal with it. We don't like it any more than you do but, too bad. BW saw fit to make NON-OP Players do NIM OP's to gear our toons, so now you have to deal with it too.

 

I would much rather NOT have to deal with the Elitist NIM OP primadonna's and just gear my character the way I have always done before. But do to the Whining from the a fore mentioned Elitist NIM OP primadonna's, you now have to deal with us in your NIM OP's just so we can gear our characters...

 

Karma is a Cruel [redacted]...

 

No big deal to me, Im sure I can carry you. Sorry my dps upsets you, but my avg IQ gives me the ability to understand rotations. I guess we are all not that lucky.

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I have not read the entire thread.

I am saying this because I have a unique way of looking at this and some people may have posted one or more points I am about to make.

 

My SWTOR History

(This is long, but I promise it makes sense and adds to my point.)

When I first started playing back before 2012, I came in thinking I would do solo content, enjoy my time and not join a guild at all or do Raids (OP's).

 

After a few months and having done no research on rotations and trying to balance defense/offense on a dps char, I actually was sitting on fleet and bored. Someone kept asking for a dps for DP. I finally sent a message and joined. As soon as I was in the group, I let all of them know, this was my very first OP, ever. I also let them know I had done no outside research and learned all my skills on my own and geared how I felt it should go.

 

I got a LOT of advise, the group had all decided carrying me would be fine and I was open to and even asked for advise on gear and skills (Assassin). I listened intently to all the advise given, bookmarked all websites that gave me more information on gear and learned rotations. The leader was very patient and used markers to explain every fight and gave me as little real responsibility as possible. This was my very first OP and I was noob/solo.

 

Having told the entire OP as soon as I joined how new I actually was, really helped. It let them know my skill level, that I was honest, that I wanted to learn and was open to any and all advise. I even went so far as to ask most advise geared towards the OP to be said in OP's chat just in case I didn't understand, I could say so in case someone didn't explain something properly or in a way I could understand and someone else could try. And if I had questions, they could all see them and answer.

 

After that OP, I really had a good time and went to those web pages to learn what I was actually playing. I then started joining more and more OP's and learned all sm content so I could do it as second nature and then start helping others.

 

After joining a guild, I started with 8m HM OP's. And once I learned all of them, I started leading sm OP's both with guild and PUG's.

 

This is how I would approach OP's I lead.


  • I would always ask if everyone knew the OP
  • I would always ask if everyone knew their class
  • If someone did not know the OP, depending on gear (and if they knew their class) I would then decide if we could teach the OP as we went.
  • If they were under-geared AND did not know the OP AND we could not carry them, I would politely let them know and point them to resources if they wanted them.
  • If we could carry them, I would assign someone TO that person who was running (or had run) that class in the OP we were doing.
  • I would also explain in detail (I had a notepad file explaining every fight so I could copy paste instructions).
  • Anyone who just could not follow instructions, I would ask the OP group if we should continue with this person (This was before GF for OP's)
  • I asked the OP group to make a decision based on a /kick and I myself would not vote.
  • If the person got angry after explaining why we had to remove them, it was an immediate kick.

 

I understand this has been long, but I promise you, I have a point.

 

I had to quit in 2016/2017 after being diagnosed with Stage 4 cancer. I am 100% cancer free now.

When I was able to return (Summer 2021), I was starting all over in terms of knowledge of OP's, after all I had been gone 5 years and played mostly PS4 from bed, so knowledge was overwritten. When I came back I had the same approach to OP's as my newbie self I mentioned earlier, only explained I knew my class (now lightning sorc), just was very rusty on mechanics on OP's I had done and on OP's I never did, I also let them know.

 

I however, will never lead OP's (I was an OP leader in my guild before being forced to quit). At this point, as just a member of an OP group I am fine just following orders/helping when needed. But, I do not at all have the patients for leading and teaching in every OP I do. Also when joining a guild as mine was long gone, I made it clear I do not want to be an officer unless it was just for running purely guild OP's.

 

I still do not mind taking our time in PUG OP's to teach people or carry people. However I am now a lot less forgiving when it comes to someone who just cant learn or are so far under-leveled/geared that its holding back the group by an insane amount of time. And I will not hesitate to ask for a kick of the person holding us back (and if its me because I am holding the group back due to OP mechanics, I will ask the OP if they want me to bow out as I don't want to hold everyone back).

 

PUG's are generally not "elitist" and will in most situations be willing to teach and or carry people. That is so long as the person is up front about their abilities and or gear and knowledge. Yes, there will be elitist people who will just no speak drop after 1 wipe, to me that's no big loss, especially with group finder.

 

Most people who can be honest with themselves will know when they are the issue. So long as you talk to them and let them know and not just kick them without saying a word to them, most will understand. They may be upset or have their ego hurt, but most take it very well.

 

That's not to say there are not people that will explode when told they have to be replaced due to gear/knowledge/level. These people will ALL ALWAYS exist. But I have found communication to be the biggest part in keeping the peace.

 

This is my 2 cents. While I used to love responsibility and teaching, I do not have the patients for it anymore. Heck I will not even get involved with guild fights or if someone not in the guild has a problem with a guild member; And will outright tell them, send a message to Soandso, they're an officer/guildmaster/etc and that I cant help them and wont get involved. :)

 

Maybe this helped, maybe it did'nt. I sincerely hope it did.

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