So, while I'd personally LOVE them to address the imbalance of [flirt]s between genders, and the current lack of SGRAs, it's a mistake to say that this stuff "makes the game" - when, in fact, it only makes the game for some of us.

The point is that their exclusion breaks the game for some of us. Why should it, from a company that prides itself on its alleged commitment to diversity?

And a huge part of my MMORPG expectations are Roleplay - so yes, I can collaborate with other players to create my own story content. But SGC should not be DIY where other players are afforded other opportunities.

It is easy to say there is a commitment to inclusiveness. But what is actually sold shows otherwise - particularly so long as the company remains mute on this issue.

At some level, any content that is put in the game is only going to affect certain people. There will be people who never play one faction or the other; people who never PVP; people who don't go through the OGRAs. For me, it doesn't really matter if there is content which will affect a higher percentage of people. They included OGRAs, they should darn well be able to include SGRAs too.

I have plenty of conspiracy theories about why SGRAs aren't in the game (hint: It's not due to "the constraints of a fully-voiced MMO") but what I am really here to point out is this:

I got an email from "The Old Republic Community" today requesting my feedback/opinion on the game. I think this would be a good avenue for us here to voice our desire for at least some information on SGRA content.

I don't imagine this is some secret thing, so in case you didn't see it:

Hi DarthEpitaph,

Now that you have been playing Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ for a while, we'd love to get your feedback and hear about your experience so far. Are you having fun? What are you enjoying in the game? What could we improve? Send us a quick note at: FeedbackSWTOR@SWTOR.com.

Thank you, Darth Epitath - that is indeed a useful contact address.

Bioware and EA can't sit the fence on this one. They publicize themselves as committed to nondiscrimination and diversity. They are proud of the recognition they receive in this regard as an employer. They know what is right. To exclude it, deliberately, from the products they sell is inconscionable.

I am waiting for Bioware to offer us a reasonable explanation, and to propose a reasonable, equitable solution to this situation. I am tired of still having to ride at the back of the bus in 2012.

As an example of our commitment to equality, EA was recently very proud to receive the accolade of having a perfect rating based on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender workplace policies and benefits according to a major study released by the Human Rights Campaign Foundation, the USA's largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender civil rights organization.

That's pretty hilarious considering the current situation we are in having same gender content excluded from the game and them making references to the fact that "gay and lesbian doesn't exist in Star Wars".

Maybe the folks here on the forums need to start spreading this issue to other sites and making organizations aware of the current situation in the game. It is easy to ignore the voices in a thread buried in a Lore forum but if other LGBT websites starting highlighting the current backtracking on the issue by BW and who knows maybe even running some stories about it BW will finally start taking the issue seriously.

The point is that their exclusion breaks the game for some of us. Why should it, from a company that prides itself on its alleged commitment to diversity?

Hey, it breaks it for me too you know.

I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it, I just think some people on this thread have unrealistic expectations about what Bioware can do. We are not going to get full on branching storylines and really in depth characterization - because Bioware has neither the time nor the resources to devote to such a massive undertaking. Think about it, the more companions the more resources, increasing the number of branches for each companion increases the complexity, the amount of voice work, the size of the client or the amount that needs to be downloaded from the server, and their load times are already almost unacceptable. They have to draw a line somewhere, especially as this will be an ever growing game.

And a huge part of my MMORPG expectations are Roleplay - so yes, I can collaborate with other players to create my own story content. But SGC should not be DIY where other players are afforded other opportunities.

 

It is easy to say there is a commitment to inclusiveness. But what is actually sold shows otherwise - particularly so long as the company remains mute on this issue.

I agree with your first paragraph completely.

I never said we should give them a pass on this issue. I just think we need to be realistic in our expectations.

Hey, it breaks it for me too you know.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it, I just think some people on this thread have unrealistic expectations about what Bioware can do. We are not going to get full on branching storylines and really in depth characterization - because Bioware has neither the time nor the resources to devote to such a massive undertaking. Think about it, the more companions the more resources, increasing the number of branches for each companion increases the complexity, the amount of voice work, the size of the client or the amount that needs to be downloaded from the server, and their load times are already almost unacceptable.

Well the good news is there isn't really any need for any of that. All the content needed is already in the game today (aside from maybe the PC VO work). The only thing missing is the dialogue option showing up on the wheel for same gender characters.

Wonder if any of those datamining sites can see if the PC VO is already in the game? Even if it is not I would bet the farm it is already recorded.

That's pretty hilarious considering the current situation we are in having same gender content excluded from the game and them making references to the fact that "gay and lesbian doesn't exist in Star Wars".

[Citation needed] on that quote, please. I would like to see it, because I find it difficult to believe. Thanks.

Maybe the folks here on the forums need to start spreading this issue to other sites and making organizations aware of the current situation in the game. It is easy to ignore the voices in a thread buried in a Lore forum but if other LGBT websites starting highlighting the current backtracking on the issue by BW and who knows maybe even running some stories about it BW will finally start taking the issue seriously.

Could you explain what you mean by "backtracking"? I understand getting upset about the lack of news, but not getting any news or responses does not mean that BioWare has changed their stance on this issue or decided not to implement what they said they'd implement. We just had a post a few pages back requoting BW's previous comment on the issue, and I haven't seen anything running counter to that.

Please understand that I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I just would like to know when a BW employee referenced what you quoted above and why you think BW is "backtracking".

Please understand that I'm not trying to be confrontational here,

Quite understood.

I just would like to know when a BW employee referenced what you quoted above and why you think BW is "backtracking".

The quote is from way back I don't have any link to it. That response came out when they first said the same gender content was not going to be included in the game and there was a general uproar about it. The backtracking is the very fact that the content is not in the game. BW as a company seems quite proud of their previous inclusiveness and are not afraid to mention it when trying to hype themselves and now in what was meant to be their flagship game the content is no where to be found.

The backtracking is the very fact that the content is not in the game. BW as a company seems quite proud of their previous inclusiveness and are not afraid to mention it when trying to hype themselves and now in what was meant to be their flagship game the content is no where to be found.

A fair point, but I think part of the issue is that because this is an MMO, BW can and will continue to add things as the game goes along. Hell, that's even possible with single-player games these days, with DLC becoming more and more common. I don't think it's fair to say that BW is backtracking because of something that hasn't happened yet; if they had said SGRs wouldn't be in TOR at all, I would agree with you completely.

But I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one, lest we drag things further off the intended topic.

I also think long years of playing WoW have made me (usually) very patient about waiting for features that are promised to come "Soon." Still feeling somewhat upset about the utter lack of news about this, though.

A fair point, but I think part of the issue is that because this is an MMO, BW can and will continue to add things as the game goes along.

As a "veteran" of many a MMO launch back to the launch of games like WoW and CoH and more than I care to count up and including today with TOR, I know developers will say anything pre-release and around launch that they think will help sell the game and keep people subscribing. Many of which features never see the light of day. Until I see it in the patch notes I see no reason to expect it is coming.

The only response we have is a fluffed up marketing response they can copy and paste every time the issue comes up that might as well say "yeah if we ever get around to it". If there were any actual plans they'd have something with a little more meat on it. I honestly don't think they have any plans at all at the moment to include the content.

Forum threads are obviously easily ignored. Unless they get some external pressure from somewhere else, gaming sites, LGBT friendly sites, news outlets, etc., I get the distinct impression they are hoping to just do nothing and wait for the people that want this content to stop asking for it.

The only thing missing from the game is the PC VO for the romance arcs. If they had any intention of including it, the content would have been extremely easy to add even prior to launch.

Hey, it breaks it for me too you know.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it, I just think some people on this thread have unrealistic expectations about what Bioware can do. ... They have to draw a line somewhere, especially as this will be an ever growing game.

 

I agree with your first paragraph completely.

 

I never said we should give them a pass on this issue. I just think we need to be realistic in our expectations.

Sorry - I think I misread the tone of your post. What happens when I am put on the defensive.

I agree we can't have everything, but the more completely we can express what we would like, and what is lacking, the more Bioware has to work with in making improvements, and the closer to ideal those improvements can be. Expect the best. Shooting for less is self-defeating. Nothing is perfect, but nothing good comes from aiming for mediocrity.

Forum threads are obviously easily ignored. Unless they get some external pressure from somewhere else, gaming sites, LGBT friendly sites, news outlets, etc., I get the distinct impression they are hoping to just do nothing and wait for the people that want this content to stop asking for it.

This is a point I wanted to second. There are LGBT gamer sites out there with a large playerbase - http://www.gaygamer.net leaps to mind. That is one place to raise awareness of this issue. Traditional LGBT advocacy groups are another. I think particularly those that advocate for teens. Think how deeply MMOs and gaming penetrate the cultural awareness of young people. A positive example in a popular game could make a huge difference.

I intent to spread the word. I would hope others will, too. Be creative. Be wide-reaching.

And if we let Bioware forget or conveniently ignore their commitment, they will. If we hold them to it, demonstrate its importance, they can't.

As a "veteran" of many a MMO launch back to the launch of games like WoW and CoH and more than I care to count up and including today with TOR, I know developers will say anything pre-release and around launch that they think will help sell the game and keep people subscribing. Many of which features never see the light of day. Until I see it in the patch notes I see no reason to expect it is coming.

 

The only response we have is a fluffed up marketing response they can copy and paste every time the issue comes up that might as well say "yeah if we ever get around to it". If there were any actual plans they'd have something with a little more meat on it. I honestly don't think they have any plans at all at the moment to include the content.

 

Forum threads are obviously easily ignored. Unless they get some external pressure from somewhere else, gaming sites, LGBT friendly sites, news outlets, etc., I get the distinct impression they are hoping to just do nothing and wait for the people that want this content to stop asking for it.

 

The only thing missing from the game is the PC VO for the romance arcs. If they had any intention of including it, the content would have been extremely easy to add even prior to launch.

I agree. I'd be surprised if we see anything regarding this before the first expansion.

I agree. I'd be surprised if we see anything regarding this before the first expansion.

But I love surprises!

Bioware has really stuck it's foot in it. Token inclusion in an expansion would have been daring and proactive in, say, 1992. This is 2012. To have sat down, thought about it, discussed it and decided to shelve it until whenever? That's not inclusive. And waiting until an expansion in what, a year? two?, is unacceptable.

I know it will take time to implement. I'll settle for working in same-gender [Flirt] prompts from mission NPCs in a content patch until then.

Sorry - I think I misread the tone of your post. What happens when I am put on the defensive.

I tend to do that too, so I completely understand.

I agree we can't have everything, but the more completely we can express what we would like, and what is lacking, the more Bioware has to work with in making improvements, and the closer to ideal those improvements can be. Expect the best. Shooting for less is self-defeating. Nothing is perfect, but nothing good comes from aiming for mediocrity.

But we need to remember that this is not a Single Player RPG (SPRPG), it's an MMO. They are two very different things. I am willing to put money on the OGRA being pretty shallow and thin as they are, since most of the companions will spend all of their time running crew skill missions and on the ship. Most of the time, those companions' affections are raised by gifts, not by actual adventuring, and so the only interaction you get is from the quiet conversations on the ship, and not their responses to your interactions during the course of levelling - this reduces the romance to not very much at all. This is about all we should expect, no matter how hard we whine and cry and say we want MMO versions of our favourite SPRPGs.

To give you an example - my IA(Ops) levelled exclusively with Kaliyo, until she got Temple. She took Temple out on a few missions, and realized that she really really really needs someone to keep the mobs backs to her to have any chance at all for some missions*... So I'm back to having Kaliyo, despite thinking Temple is sweet and cute and generally all around awesome. If my Agent was male, his romance would consist of giving Temple a plethora of gifts and a few conversations, since Temple would spend 99% of her time on the ship, running crew skill missions. Very shallow and disappointing. But that's just the nature of a game that tries to do so much.

(*I think Bioware needs to look at some Class Mission Bosses and tone them down, but that's not going to happen.)

This is a point I wanted to second. There are LGBT gamer sites out there with a large playerbase - http://www.gaygamer.net leaps to mind. That is one place to raise awareness of this issue. Traditional LGBT advocacy groups are another. I think particularly those that advocate for teens. Think how deeply MMOs and gaming penetrate the cultural awareness of young people. A positive example in a popular game could make a huge difference.

 

I intent to spread the word. I would hope others will, too. Be creative. Be wide-reaching.

 

And if we let Bioware forget or conveniently ignore their commitment, they will. If we hold them to it, demonstrate its importance, they can't.

You know what might actually work. Pick a date, and everyone cancel their accounts on that date, giving the lack of SGRA as the reason. Get all of your friends, all of your guild mates, all of your family, anyone who you know who is supportive of SGRAs to all cancel their accounts.

Maybe then Bioware would listen.

(By the way, I'm not actually advocating this as a solution.)

[Citation needed] on that quote, please. I would like to see it, because I find it difficult to believe. Thanks.

This was the incident in question. The end result was Bioware rethinking its policy and un-censoring the words:

http://www.vg247.com/2009/04/28/bioware-cleansing-the-term-gay-from-the-old-republic/

Note this was two, three years ago, and Bioware was not as on top of their game as they like to present themselves so far as nondiscrimination is concerned. Yes, they changed their stance on this - but only after a media furor.

Perhaps that is why Bioware is lying low now, and unwilling to have an open dialog with us on this topic, because of the hostile attention drawn from some quarters by the rumor that we actually have this in the game.

Personally, I would like this to be a "teachable moment" for all concerned. Bioware needs to take a stand and quit trying to ride the fence. Either they stand by this content, commit to its inclusion, and are frank about what it will or won't entail, or they cave in to the reactionary hoohaw and withdraw it.

But they probably think letting the statement they already have stand, unclarified, is the best way to weather this. Maybe it is. But it is a shame they'd leave their subscribers in the dark, when they have been ready to discuss all manner of other development-related subjects.

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde

This is a point I wanted to second. There are LGBT gamer sites out there with a large playerbase - http://www.gaygamer.net leaps to mind. That is one place to raise awareness of this issue. Traditional LGBT advocacy groups are another. I think particularly those that advocate for teens. Think how deeply MMOs and gaming penetrate the cultural awareness of young people. A positive example in a popular game could make a huge difference.

 

I intent to spread the word. I would hope others will, too. Be creative. Be wide-reaching.

Agreed. Spreading the word at this point is the only chance I think we'll ever see this content. I don't believe any number of forum posts or interest shown from the player base is going to change the status quo.

You know what might actually work. Pick a date, and everyone cancel their accounts on that date, giving the lack of SGRA as the reason. Get all of your friends, all of your guild mates, all of your family, anyone who you know who is supportive of SGRAs to all cancel their accounts.

 

Maybe then Bioware would listen.

 

(By the way, I'm not actually advocating this as a solution.)

I'd advocate any solution I thought would have an impact at this point. If that requires soliciting people to cancel their subscriptions, contacting LGBT groups or websites to raise their awareness hoping for support, whatever.

It seems that the Same Canned Answer is all that BioWare is offering in regard to [Flirt] prompts that stem from mission NPC conversations. In reply to a ticket where I observed these were not appearing for my character when the NPC was of the same gender, I received the following reply:

Greetings ****,

 

 

I am Protocol Droid W*-** of Human-Cyborg Relations, and I have received your transmission.

 

Thank you for contacting us regarding same gender romance arcs in Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

We would like to apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced and would like to let you know that we are doing our best to make your in-game and out-game experience pleasant.

 

We hold our customers in the highest regard and we will be supporting you to our full knowledge and extent.

 

We understand that this topic is one that's very important to many of our community members, and we appreciate you contacting us for clarification.

 

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.

 

We at BioWare and Star Wars: The Old Republic appreciate all our fans, and are proud to have a such a diverse and tolerant community.

 

Please do not hesitate to contact us again if there is anything further we can help you with.

 

Galactic Support is our specialty...

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Protocol Droid W*-**(aka ****)

Star Wars: The Old Republic Customer Service

I just don't see how BioWare can claim to "appreciate all their fans" while declining to address this issue. How many Dev posts did that thread in General Discussion about white lightsaber crystals get?

They care? Really? Really, BioWare? I am not buying it. And I probably won't be re-upping my subscription if BioWare keeps trying to ride the fence.

Last night, my Smuggler was on Nar Shaddaa, running a class story mission - the one which introduced me to the Wookiee, Bowdaar. I fought a squad of brutes with him and as my (male) Smuggler was leaving, I saw a (female) NPC with a mission-available mark over her head.

So I talk to her, and she comes oozing up to me all suggestively about what a real strong man I was and - predictably - there was the option to [Flirt]. But my Smuggler isn't interested. Because shw was overly familiar, I took the more snarky response - and that ended the dialog, no mission available from there. I have no idea what the other non-[Flirt] option would have unlocked.

Later, once I had returned to my ship, having completed the Nar Shaddaa portion of my class story, I received a distress call from a (female) starship captain. Again - and bizarrely since it was a distress call, the middle conversational prompt in reply was a [Flirt]. The first I chose gave me -1 affection from Corso. I hit Esc and restarted. The only other non-[Flirt] option... gave me -1 affection from Corso. I kept this result because clearly I was going to be punished regardless of what I chose, if it wasn't a [Flirt].

Really BioWare? Really? Not only do I not get to [Flirt] with NPCs that would interest me, and have to dailu see two to four opportunities to [Flirt] available which don't interest me, but I am actually going to be penalized for not flirting where you decide I ought to? Really?

Can you go over that part where you say "you hold your customers in the highest regard and you will be supporting me to your full knowledge and extent", again please? With a straight face? Seriously?

It is disappointing that I cannot play a Smuggler without encountering daily indications that I have be discounted as irrelevant. To encounter instances where I am penalized for not taking those very options that marginalize me is outrageous.

That is just really, really unfortunately thoughtless and inconsiderate and it is swiftly eroding what limited patience and understanding I had.

It seems that the Same Canned Answer is all that BioWare is offering in regard to [Flirt] prompts that stem from mission NPC conversations. In reply to a ticket where I observed these were not appearing for my character when the NPC was of the same gender, I received the following reply:

 

 

 

I just don't see how BioWare can claim to "appreciate all their fans" while declining to address this issue. How many Dev posts did that thread in General Discussion about white lightsaber crystals get?

 

They care? Really? Really, BioWare? I am not buying it. And I probably won't be re-upping my subscription if BioWare keeps trying to ride the fence.

 

Last night, my Smuggler was on Nar Shaddaa, running a class story mission - the one which introduced me to the Wookiee, Bowdaar. I fought a squad of brutes with him and as my (male) Smuggler was leaving, I saw a (female) NPC with a mission-available mark over her head.

 

So I talk to her, and she comes oozing up to me all suggestively about what a real strong man I was and - predictably - there was the option to [Flirt]. But my Smuggler isn't interested. Because shw was overly familiar, I took the more snarky response - and that ended the dialog, no mission available from there. I have no idea what the other non-[Flirt] option would have unlocked.

 

Later, once I had returned to my ship, having completed the Nar Shaddaa portion of my class story, I received a distress call from a (female) starship captain. Again - and bizarrely since it was a distress call, the middle conversational prompt in reply was a [Flirt]. The first I chose gave me -1 affection from Corso. I hit Esc and restarted. The only other non-[Flirt] option... gave me -1 affection from Corso. I kept this result because clearly I was going to be punished regardless of what I chose, if it wasn't a [Flirt].

 

Really BioWare? Really? Not only do I not get to [Flirt] with NPCs that would interest me, and have to dailu see two to four opportunities to [Flirt] available which don't interest me, but I am actually going to be penalized for not flirting where you decide I ought to? Really?

 

Can you go over that part where you say "you hold your customers in the highest regard and you will be supporting me to your full knowledge and extent", again please? With a straight face? Seriously?

 

It is disappointing that I cannot play a Smuggler without encountering daily indications that I have be discounted as irrelevant. To encounter instances where I am penalized for not taking those very options that marginalize me is outrageous.

 

That is just really, really unfortunately thoughtless and inconsiderate and it is swiftly eroding what limited patience and understanding I had.

I have already cancelled my Subscription, if they don't get SGRAs sorted out soon enough, I'll probably just play Mass Effect 3 till Guild Wars 2 is out, because honestly, I was told this could be played as a single player game, much like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, yet I don't have any SGRAs where I can take part in the romance arcs of the game, romance arcs were a main part of my enjoyment of the ME and DA series, especially Liara T'soni and Leliana, others may not have cared, but I always have especially where BioWare game are concerned, I'm pretty sick and tired now, I've already finished all the Force classes and made all viable Roleplays of characters that wouldn't use a romance, now I don't even want to play it anymore, because there is nothing to do for me.

Has anyone else noticed that the canned comment actually does not promise any SGRs at all? Look at it again. It says new companions with new romance options. That could just as easily mean the new companions will offer new OGRs. Context implies that they are speaking of SGRs, but they have not - in fact have refused to - confirm that.

BioWare! Clarification is needed!

 

BioWare! Clarification is needed!

Really? I thought it was rather clear. Any time you see a fluff marketing response like that, which doesn't actually say anything of significance or address the actual issue, you can pretty much bet the only thought about the issue was what to write in the actual statement.

I don't think BW has really even thought about addressing the missing content, and the longer we go without a real response the less likely they ever will. I would agree they are just ignoring the issue hoping it goes away, that is if I believed they actually thought about it at all.

Really? I thought it was rather clear. Any time you see a fluff marketing response like that, which doesn't actually say anything of significance or address the actual issue, you can pretty much bet the only thought about the issue was what to write in the actual statement.

 

I don't think BW has really even thought about addressing the missing content, and the longer we go without a real response the less likely they ever will. I would agree they are just ignoring the issue hoping it goes away, that is if I believed they actually thought about it at all.

I seem to remember about the same quote being said by Blizzard when it came to different sexes of warlock demons saying they wanted to add them at some point but the way it looks they only said that to quiet the crowd asking for it and have no intention of making it ever happen.

While i can guarantee atleast half the people wanting same sex romances are not actually interested in it in real life the fact still remains it has been there as an option for the last few Bioware games so it seems like a huge *** when they put different companions in this game but force you into a certain relationship when each charater has their own story.