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Please remove veterans edge from HM (and SM)


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So I want to start this post by giving a little bit of info about me. I'm a not very professional NiM raider that got into raiding about 2 years ago. I've been raiding NiM for ~1 year (started in 5.10). I'll be the first to say I'm far from a great player just a decent one. I've cleared all the content in the game except gods in 5.10 and have recleared it all after the removal of VE from NiM in 6.1 (even Gods NiM).

 

Now at the time the removal of VE was a bit controversial but IMO the right direction for the game to go in. Personally for me (a NiM raider) NiM had become boring to the point I was making obscene amounts of mistakes on content like Brontes and we would still easily kill it. So the removal of VE was a great thing (even if a bit brutal). However personally I agree NiM was a bit too insane so the slight buff we received was appreciated.

 

Now the purpose of this post is to explain why raiding is at a terrible spot in the game ATM. Although NiM is at the right difficulty (hard but more then doable), SM and especially HM is a JOKE. Just a few minutes ago I completed TfB HM with a fleet pug and normal players (only me and one other person were NiM raiders) and we completed the operation in 40 minutes. We killed TFB (the last boss) in 8 minutes with having 4 tentacles in P1 (the enrage timer is 14 minutes). Anyone that tells me this is normal is either crazy or has never played the game when it was hard.

 

Revan HM (which is supposed to be the hardest HM boss and a challenge even for NiM raiders) can be 5Manned easily and the core burn can be done with 3 people (2D 1H) (if you don't believe me here is a video showing some germans doing this:

). This is not normal IDC how good you are at the game you should not be able to 5M the final boss of a "HardMare" operation.

 

Now I hear what people will tell me "why is HM being easy matter?". Simple HM is completely FACEROLL you can ignore nearly all mechanics never pop a single DCD (even as tank) and go full Yolo mode. (This is what most HM prog groups will do). Now what happens after they finish all HM content ? They try to go in NiM and get DESTROYED because NiM ATM is actually hard and requires you to play correctly have good dps and know when to pop cool downs and execute mechanics. HM is supposed to prepare you for this while being a bit more forgiving. Unfortunately this isn't the case right now. This leads to HM prog groups to become discouraged and bored because they have no content to do and leave the game. Which is BAD for the overall raiding community and health of the game.

 

I know HM is supposed to be about mechanic checks not DPS checks but even mechanics are not punishing at all right now. At the moment there is absolutely no point for me to run HM operations because I can sleepwalk through them all and still one shot everything with PUG groups from fleet. NiM operations are too hard to be pugged so I end up just not playing this game outside of PTS testing of Dxun with my raiding team.

 

Now how to fix this? Simple, remove VE from HM give us the same stats as we have in old NiMs and its pretty much solved. I know people will whine but HM is HARD Mode. You are supposed to be a minimum challenged. I know a lot of people will disagree but please understand how boring the game is right now.

 

While you are at it please remove stacks from SM (maybe not all but at least 15). SM is even more of a joke and you can 2M nearly all SM operations and 3M them all. Thats not very normal....

Edited by MythicRaiderInx
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As much as I'd like to say that VE is an issue (in HM), you have to realize that the skill gap between NiM raiders and the vast majority of the player base, as it stands now, is so large it's not even funny.

 

Now, I gave up on HM raiding in 5.10 but it was because lag became intolerable on the machine I was playing on at the time (and I was running 8-man with graphics on lowest; I knew additional mechanics would only make lag worse).

 

Two-manning a SM op, or even three-manning one, may be feasible, but definitely not within everyone's range. Just because your guild was able to doesn't mean the average player could.

 

One last thing, if content proves impossible to balance (as I suspect is the case), in SM, you're better off if it's too easy than if it's too hard (may be different in HM though).

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Completely agree, I used to love pugging HM in fleet, now it's just repetitive and I don't really bother to use dcd's it's just faceroll and feels like SM last expansion. removing Stacks would at least feel more challenging for most pug groups and for sure would actually make me concentrate
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As much as I'd like to say that VE is an issue (in HM), you have to realize that the skill gap between NiM raiders and the vast majority of the player base, as it stands now, is so large it's not even funny.

 

Here is the thing HM isn't just a joke for NiM raiders its a joke for all raiders HM is no challenge at all. HM is basically the same difficulty as SM was in 3.0. Furthermore probably the only reason the skill gap between normal raiders and NiM raiders is so big because no content in the game is actually hard appart from NiM. This means that raiders are never incentivized to become better at the game, which is why the gap is so large. NiM is supposed to be hard the way it is right now. Hm is not supposed to be able to be 4 Manned by somewhat competent raiders (which is what I am, I'm nowhere near the level of gameplay of some NiM raiders from FC or Failure). Right now HM does not prepare you in any way for NiM and if you are a progression raider that wants to get into NiM it is basically impossible.

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True, HM was harder in 5.10, but you are implying that there are only two strata of players in 6.0, where there is, in fact, more than two, with large gaps between each stratum. There's still a wide spectrum of playing skills even if you exclude NiM raiding.

 

I have pugged ops since I even started running ops in 5.10, and for each player that can decently run HM ops (lag notwithstanding) there was at least one other player that would struggle to run HMs (outside of EV/KP/Eyeless) but still run SM ops just fine, and at least one more that can barely run SM (outside of Gods/Dxun), and finally, even within that last stratum, people that can essentially run Hammer and nothing else (with highly variable knowledge of their specs, and maybe run Red Reaper if they are playing a stealth class).

 

Now, I accept that the lower strata are more populated than in 5.10 because the game has gained a sizeable amount of new/returning players. And that raiding ceased being anywhere near a selling point of the game in 3.0, too.

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Veteran's Edge stacks are intended as a way to make the work of acquiring 306 gear (over 270 gear) mean something even in level locked content. Its removal as a way to make content more challenging is more of a hack than "good design." It was an easy fix for developers, low hanging fruit. I speak as a "story mode hero" and not as a progression raider, though I've tried some hard mode content (beyond EV and KP of course), so take my opinion as you will. But, we have enough challenges when we, as a guild group, attempt more challenging content. We struggle, and Veteran's Edge is not a replacement for doing mechanics correctly. We would improve with more practice, but that's just not where we are at as a guild right now.

 

I definitely do not support the removal of this in Story Mode. There are enough threads complaining about pugging story mode Gods and Dxun as it is.

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I definitely do not support the removal of this in Story Mode. There are enough threads complaining about pugging story mode Gods and Dxun as it is.

 

The only reason people struggle pugging Gods is because people do not know mechanics. VE removal will change nothing when it comes to that. Dxun doesn't even have VE because its already lvl 75 so I'm not sure where the problem there is....

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yes they should remove the stacks and rebalance the content for 75. trhe removal of stacks the way you want it was done by BW, intentionally, and they reversed, likely because of what they saw in the data. it is likely that groups were unable to clear the stuff your group can faceroll, and the last time BW told people to learn to play, as you are doing, it did not go well.
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yes they should remove the stacks and rebalance the content for 75. trhe removal of stacks the way you want it was done by BW, intentionally, and they reversed, likely because of what they saw in the data. it is likely that groups were unable to clear the stuff your group can faceroll, and the last time BW told people to learn to play, as you are doing, it did not go well.

 

When exactly where stacks removed from HM? All I remember was people getting buffed to 168k HP in HM by accident when they buffed NiM.

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When exactly where stacks removed from HM? All I remember was people getting buffed to 168k HP in HM by accident when they buffed NiM.

 

Probably referencing the fact that NiM had stacks removed (making it harder), then BW adjusted the level-sync stat thresholds (making it easier).

 

It was a bit of a "reversal" to placate the whiners.

Edited by Ubarave
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This is an absolutely terrible idea. The game already has so few players doing nightmare content. Why should we be trying to make content that was released nearly a decade ago harder? Right now, we need note accessible content not more content that only 0.1% of players can do.
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I"m against this. The NiM type raiders are all looking at this from the perspective of players who run with the top performing specs (in most cases) and have done the ops multiple times and therefore know the mechanics and timing by heart.

 

I realize it's hard to understand, but not everyone is part of the top 2% of players. While NiM is tuned for your ability levels, HM, and most especially SM, are not.

 

I'm speaking as someone who needs that gear advantage. Computer and physical limitations mean I will never be able to have the APMs needed to be at a NiM level of raiding. Currently I perform well enough to do HM, but that's with fully optimized top-tier gear. Take that away and I won't get better, I'll just stop raiding.

 

Want a challenge? Try using underperforming specs, with sub-optimal gear. Raid with a group where you are the only one who's done the HM fight before. You can even put 270 mods into your set bonus gear and remove those veteran's edge stacks yourself.

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We did SnV HM \ Vet recently with very mixed group (some people with little experience in raiding) and Styrak did enrage.

 

Not just styrak, I've seen plenty of enrages in HM. Even KP/EV bosses will engrage.

 

Some players can pull off 12k dps or more in raids, but only elitists think thats what the raids should be tuned for. When they say they've pugged the harder OPs, what they mean is they got a group of experienced HM/NiM raiders together instead of running with an actual prog team.

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One would think that some of those NiM-level players that make those posts are so used to play with their guilds that they are, to an extent, sheltered from the rest of the player base.

 

Absolutely against this, this would kill any PUG ops. Even with VE you can get yourself into a PUG group capable of wiping in KP SM.

 

Now, I get that the pug crowd is all over the place, skill-wise, and wiping on KP SM can and does happen (probably not too often), but I have to ask the following questions:

 

1) How many of the pugs, in your last wipe, were undergeared (and therefore didn't have the full set of VE stacks), or underleveled?

 

2) How many of the players were new/returning players?

 

If your last wipe happened during double XP, then it's entirely possible several players were learning their specs and running it with specs they aren't yet comfortable playing.

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From nim raider perspective - he HM opses no longer prepare you for nim raiding. The gap between HM and nim is 10x wider than between SM and HM, you might not believe it but it is this way currently and it also makes it almost impossible for vet teams to transition into nim raiding. So anytime a person leaves a team (often for rl reasons, like new job, a baby born or such) the team must look for a replacement and it is no longer enough to take a person who has run the opses on HM for trial. People who now run hm opses with half decent team will be able to skip many mechanics or just heal through mistakes due to the +30% bonus dps, healing and health on everyone. So they will not even learn HM mechanics correctly anymore, and when HMs feel easy and group tries the nim, there is a rather huge cultural shock of wiping on first boss for several hours without bringing it below 50%, dps being moderate instead of good, healing being not enough, tanks not being able to use dcds in correct order and time...

So for nim raiders, it makes sense to make hard mode hard, so the transition from HM to nim is smoother and people learn and "git gud" in the middle tier of operations.

 

From SM/HM player perspective - once you learn how to use at least a simple rotation or skill priority and get some higher tier of gear, the story mode pose no challenge at all (apart from pugs, those can turn any operation into impossible super nightmare horror show). Hard modes offer a bit more challenge where a healer actually needs to heal at least half of the time and sometimes cleanse people, tank should be actually keeping the aggro of boss and dpses must bring at least average dps with a rotation. There are new and fun mechanic that keep people engaged and the fight makes more sense with them (good example is DP last boss fight phase with Styrak and Brontes - on SM you just dps them down, on HM you need to take their Dread Holocrons and Brontes will have a mechanic that she will start a lightning beam clock phase similar to DF phase with lightning and droids, on Nim all of the above but Brontes will also pop reaches every 2 seconds - same reaches you run from in DF - the fight mechanic is complete there).

So for HM raiders that are an average tier of players (which means no offense, not everyone has super fast reflexes, some people have disabilities or carpal tunnel syndrome, some have bad internet and to high ping, some just do not want to invest too much time in researching the game intricacies on internet and play for fun) - which is actually a very large part of the HM raiding community - making HMs harder would not be enjoyable change, and probably will make some of them not able to enjoy those fight any longer.

 

There is no way to please both crowds. The only way I can imagine is making it possible to choose if the HM ops should have stacks or not (or maybe make it some new mode of difficulty between current veteran and current master mode, maybe call it an expert mode) so there will be again only HM mechanics, but also no stacks to carry dps/hps/health so the dps/healing checks will be present again, and once a HM team is confident enough they can do the expert mode which would bring no change in mechanics but more focus on correct dcd usage, haling and dps checks, and after mastering this mode they could be ready to tackle nightmare mode. However that would need probably lot of development time, so I doubt there will be anything like this implemented, so we will be stuck with stacks in HM and almost no way to progress to nim raiding.

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The obvious fix, to be implemented as part of re-tuning HM ops (and SM as well) to 75 is actually difficult to implement, given that it took several months to re-tune uprisings to lv75 (and even then we're not sure that's even intended for that to be re-tuned), and we are still waiting on them to re-tune the remaining group content.
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For those having trouble clearing SM & HM, I think a lot of the time people may not have the right set bonus/amps/tacticals. These are the only real "gear checK' in HM after 306 (mastery endurance power are capped).

 

 

______

 

We did SnV HM \ Vet recently with very mixed group (some people with little experience in raiding) and Styrak did enrage.

 

That kind of proves my point if you can bring "noobs" into HM styrak. :D It sounds like you cleared it even though it enraged -- which happened a lot in 5.x imo.

 

There is a trick you can do to increase your DPS on the Kell Dragon that revolve around reflecting the spines. Have everyone with a reflect -- such as scoundrel dodge with reflect utility -- purposefully stand close to the dragon while he is spinning in the last 15% of the channel. Once they have the spines and the dragon stops spinning, hit your reflect. Reflecting during the spin is pointless because the dragon has extra DR, which is why you don't reflect until afterward.

 

You can also reflect or rebounder much of the lightning stuff that Styrak does.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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purposefully stand close to the dragon while he is spinning in the last 15% of the channel. Once they have the spines and the dragon stops spinning, hit your reflect. .

 

there is no dot im hm....

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LoL, NiM raider wants content that's not even relevant to himself to be nerfed so that average players will struggle with it, simply because he's salty that it's not harder.....

 

I've raided at all levels in this game, got the timed NiM run titles back in the day. Mostly play casual now, and let me tell you: 90% of the playerbase cannot farm HM, and even struggle with SM occasionally true story.

 

Yes, this may be laughable to anyone with a decent amount of raiding experience, but it's true.

 

Remove VE and you will drive the casuals out of this game. We can't afford to do that because the game is funded by the casuals and running them off would literally kill the game.

 

So no thanks.

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No, just no.

 

What they should do is scale all content to the level cap, and offer gear progression through difficulty as it has always been in the past before all the silly 'loot in a box - everyone gets the same thing' systems.

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Simple HM is completely FACEROLL you can ignore nearly all mechanics never pop a single DCD (even as tank) and go full Yolo mode.

 

Well, for you as NiM raider it may looks like that, but for me as a loong years veteran, but mostly casual (never play most of ops on HM, never NiM) small progress, now with comeback to finally do more ops, without luck of finding a guild for it.

But more: easy? Some of the content is..but especially the new HM FP as traitor among the chiss, nathema, etc..are insanly hard! Nothing like yolo, ignoring mechanics possible..eventhough you really hard trying, some small mistakes and bye bye on boss in FP:)

In traitor among the chiss occasionally quite a few groups (full 306 gear) rip sometimes on first mobs in FP, their dmg is somehow a bit higher then in other flashpoints, and hits quite hard :)

- As a tank when random Traitor/nanthema pop up I prefer to leave, because I´m too afraid it will be total s**** rip fest..without ppl who know exactly what to do, discord,.. and 9 times of 10 it is.

Maybe SM ops are easier, then it used to be, but HM definitely is not like walking on sunshine, it is still so easy to wipe with casual ppl, random group etc ) if ppl don´t know what to do... just tank and spank does not work :)

So it is not faceroll at all :)

Edited by XaronTN
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