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PvP time to kill is way too high.


hemeen

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the ttk in pvp feels really high right now, each heal/dpsgcd barely has any impact, this demotes quick reactive thinking and takes the fun out of it for me.

 

[edit] watch this vengeance jugg having fun in 2.0 to get an idea of what im talking about. good times

 

back in the old swtor pvp days, high damage and healing per gcd with meaningful defensive cd´s felt a hundred times better.

 

 

what do you think, do you like the current ttk and overall state of swtor pvp? some other things really feel out of place for me, like a tank jugg/guard or tanks in general dealing comparative or in some cases even more damage than dps classes.

Edited by hemeen
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some classes have very strong "stay in the fight" dcds (merc, mara, jugg).

 

Others have "escape and heal" cds: sorcs, sins, and ops have to use gcds or leave combat completely, but can also have excellent surviability.

 

PTs have pretty insane burst, and given that burst, they live an awfully long time.

 

this is all observations in regs since 5.x. I haven't been in rated for 6.x yet.

 

so what do I think? I think the first thing BW needs to do is rewrite mobility abilities which would mean rethinking a couple of classes completely. this has nothing to do with TTK directly. it's more a matter of the game engine (or server/client communication) not being capable of keeping up with the action on the map. I'm cool with op roll as a thing philosophically, but in practice - under the realistic pressures of server-client handshakes and game engine/gfx rendering - they break the game. the second an op rolls up a slight incline, he rubber bands, often he will stop jittering, come into focus, be shown running on a lower level for a few beats, then he'll be rolling away on the upper level. it's just flat broken. the game cannot handle it. you cannot kill or combat something like this, so it is related to TTK, but it's not a matter of healing or dcds. it's certain movement abilities are simply beyond this game's ability to process.

 

I would say anything beyond the sorc/sin "sprint" is asking too much of the game engine. so propulsion round, holotraverse, the sin equivalents...they all need to go, which would necessitate rethinking how BW addresses mobility, snare, and root abilities in pvp. even after that is done, some classes (thinking of ops) will need some sort of dcd b/c roll is so important to their defenses.

 

as far as dcds go, I think the game needs fewer reflects and immunities and more DR dcds like reactive shield or saber ward. I like the idea of each dps class having one dcd for white dmg or yellow dmg, but nothing that grants immunity to both and then add one (maybe two?) flat DRs. in general, I want to see DRs rather than immunities.

 

however, even if you move to DRs rather than immunities, you're still going to have a heck of a time balancing things because then everyone becomes something similar to a PT (maybe minus the burst but no dcd that can, on its own, force a focus swap). I don't have a problem with this. I think the immunities have gone overboard, but it does mean tweaking dps output for just about every class, either toning down or tuning up.

 

TL;DR: it's an incredibly complex endeavor, and I cannot begin to micro-manage it in my own head. but I would

  1. eliminate game-breaking movement abilites (replacing with dcds and adjusting snares and roots)
  2. eliminate full dmg immunity dcds and
  3. keep dcds focused on DR and make them no higher than 50% dmg reduction (ala mando shock absorbers "take 30% less dmg while stunned and 30% less dmg from aoe").

 

anyway, none of this is going to happen, and even if it did, it would take about 5 years to sort out (given the established track recorded for re-balancing), but that's how I'd like to see balance addressed from a macro perspective.

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the ttk in pvp feels really high right now, each heal/dpsgcd barely has any impact, this demotes quick reactive thinking and takes the fun out of it for me.

 

back in the old swtor pvp days, high damage and healing per gcd with meaningful defensive cd´s felt a hundred times better.

 

what do you think, do you like the current ttk and overall state of swtor pvp? some other things really feel out of place for me, like a tank jugg/guard or tanks in general dealing comparative or in some cases even more damage than dps classes.

 

It's not that base TTK is too high, its heals, taunts and guard that makes TTK too high. Atm a single good healer is enough to nulify 2-3 DPS players, add in a guarding tank and the fight resolves around resource exhaustion, crowd control and burst coordination. Since typically that level of coordination is not present in random unranked warzones, it is not especially rare to see voidstar matches where you have only 4 or 5 total deaths per side, makes for extremely tedious matches.

 

Solution:

- Make guard break temporarily when the tank is stunned or mezzed.

- Debuff healing a little more in PvP. This also helps with the issue of overtuned self healing of certain dps classes.

 

PvP tanks don't deal comparative damage to DPS btw, not even close. It's just that they don't die so they continue to do damage non-stop for the entire match ending up with damage values close to or better than DPS.

Edited by TheRealExozone
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It's not that base TTK is too high, its heals, taunts and guard that makes TTK too high. Atm a single good healer is enough to nulify 2-3 DPS players, add in a guarding tank and the fight resolves around resource exhaustion, crowd control and burst coordination. Since typically that level of coordination is not present in random unranked warzones, it is not especially rare to see voidstar matches where you have only 4 or 5 total deaths per side, makes for extremely tedious matches.

 

Solution:

- Make guard break temporarily when the tank is stunned or mezzed.

- Debuff healing a little more in PvP. This also helps with the issue of overtuned self healing of certain dps classes.

 

PvP tanks don't deal comparative damage to DPS btw, not even close. It's just that they don't die so they continue to do damage non-stop for the entire match ending up with damage values close to or better than DPS.

 

The self heals and tank mitigation aren’t the actual problem. It’s the immunities that many classes have that increase the TTK.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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It's not that base TTK is too high, its heals, taunts and guard that makes TTK too high.

 

the last thing I would want to see is reduction in the utility of support roles.

 

there was a point many years ago (perhaps with sorc stun bubble?) in which WZs were cluttered with healers. I would say the number of healers in regs atm is in the high end of healthy.

 

you also have to remember that focus fire in regs is really bad.

 

dunno about the most recent season of yolos. but as a general rule, the specs that play yolos have good survivability without healers/tanks.

 

complaining about slow TTK will prolly result in BW "solving" the situation by increasing burst. I caution you about asking BW for anything (like "stop ppl from quitting!" - I back filled 3 in a row last night. /sadface).

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In 3.x, Min/maxed health was around 42k for a dps in PvP gear. A big hit was about 15k, around 1/3 of someone’s health. like maybe an auto crit heat seeker missile for a merc. Biggest hit I’ve ever heard of was 21k ambush. So a big hit used to be about 1/3 to 1/2 of someone’s health.

 

Currently in 6.x, min/Maxed health for dps is about 282k. A big hit is about 50k for many classes, around 1/6 of someone’s health. biggest hits I’ve heard of are 100k, so just over 1/3 of someone’s health.

 

That seems like a big difference to me. Add in that some classes had their autocrits from set bonuses removed and I think it’s no wonder TTK is up

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TTK isn't too high, it's that overall average skill has dropped considerably. In a good, competitive 8v8 with one healer capable of 15k+ HPS, one solid tank and 6 dps on each team, I'd expect the losing team to average 5-7 deaths each. The problem is with many games you end up with so many players who just don't know how to play. If you get one or two 12k healers against a trash team, it's easy to imagine them only allowing 5 or 6 deaths for the entire team.

 

I dunno whether the number of abilities/utilities/gearing choices is too complex for today's gamer, or if star wars just attracts people who are bad at video games. But it's definitely at a low point right now.

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In 3.x, Min/maxed health was around 42k for a dps in PvP gear. A big hit was about 15k, around 1/3 of someone’s health. like maybe an auto crit heat seeker missile for a merc. Biggest hit I’ve ever heard of was 21k ambush. So a big hit used to be about 1/3 to 1/2 of someone’s health.

 

Currently in 6.x, min/Maxed health for dps is about 282k. A big hit is about 50k for many classes, around 1/6 of someone’s health. biggest hits I’ve heard of are 100k, so just over 1/3 of someone’s health.

 

That seems like a big difference to me. Add in that some classes had their autocrits from set bonuses removed and I think it’s no wonder TTK is up

 

exactly this, paired with the abundance of tanks spamming guard currently (imo due to having way overtuned damage for a tank, especially jugg/guard, resulting in redicolous overall player strength) and the abundance of damage mitigation CD´s it really isnt bursty at all anymore. Every dps i played in the last few weeks (PT, dpsjugg, marauder, sorc) hits like a wet noodle in comparison to not only other current mmorpg´s, but also in comparison to earlier days of swtor.

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It's not that base TTK is too high, its heals, taunts and guard that makes TTK too high. Atm a single good healer is enough to nulify 2-3 DPS players, add in a guarding tank and the fight resolves around resource exhaustion, crowd control and burst coordination.

 

Solution:

- Make guard break temporarily when the tank is stunned or mezzed.

- Debuff healing a little more in PvP. This also helps with the issue of overtuned self healing of certain dps classes.

 

PvP tanks don't deal comparative damage to DPS btw, not even close. It's just that they don't die so they continue to do damage non-stop for the entire match ending up with damage values close to or better than DPS.

 

Guard breaking temporarily while the tank is stunned or mezzed... only someone that plays regs exclusively could dream up something so game-breaking in ranked.

 

A single healer cannot nullify 2-3 competent dps. Notice I didn't say "good", the bar is lower. You cannot balance the game around the average dps in regs who probably utilizes 50-75% of their GCDs, has low awareness of opponent DCDs, plays at low APM and doesn't really understand how to optimize their damage rotation.

 

TTK overall is fine, the forcebound and grit teeth combo is not - especially in regs. But first you have to bring AP PT dps into line, because focebound and grit teeth is the only thing keeping pvp tanking viable in ranked vs the obscene damage that AP PTs can put out, and to a lesser extent Pyro PT and lethality operatives.

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Guard breaking temporarily while the tank is stunned or mezzed... only someone that plays regs exclusively could dream up something so game-breaking in ranked.

 

A single healer cannot nullify 2-3 competent dps. Notice I didn't say "good", the bar is lower. You cannot balance the game around the average dps in regs who probably utilizes 50-75% of their GCDs, has low awareness of opponent DCDs, plays at low APM and doesn't really understand how to optimize their damage rotation.

 

TTK overall is fine, the forcebound and grit teeth combo is not - especially in regs. But first you have to bring AP PT dps into line, because focebound and grit teeth is the only thing keeping pvp tanking viable in ranked vs the obscene damage that AP PTs can put out, and to a lesser extent Pyro PT and lethality operatives.

 

The only reason AP PT's can put out so much damage is because they get dedicated guard and heals boosting their survivability to a level where they actually can apply their burst. When you play an arena match as AP PT with a team that doesn't support you vs a semi-competent opposing team, you get focused hard and spend more time trying to stay alive than doing damage.

Edited by TheRealExozone
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It's far from high, too many people are ungeared and running non-optimal things.

I would love to say there's a meta in this game but honestly, it's just playable and nearly unplayable classes right now.

For example, force bound - if it's removed you will learn quickly what does damage and how fast the TTK can be. With it in the game, it's the easiest one-button stall next to diversion. While I do think it needs to go, there are more things that need to be looked at.

 

Not to take it too far off-topic but, here in my opinion is a list of problems.

  • Healing output
  • Setbonuses
  • Auto Criticals
  • Powerlode & the interaction with amplified damage abilities like 4x stack energy burst doing more damage than intended thru sniper evasion for example.
  • Amplifiers - Cool addition, but makes gearing for multiple things or alts extremely irritating, I have 7 different warrior sets since I play all the specs.
  • Tanks - Only really one is playable in a competitive scene, that's juggernaut.
  • Force Bound - It should not make you miss taunts or CC, really removes any potential counterplay. (let alone exist imo.)
  • Tech Frag earning and cap.
  • Lack of a vendor for BiS pieces for an upcharge like old expansions.

 

I could go on but I'd prefer to not make it too opinionated even if a lot of people agree with me. I love this game but most players aren't seeing the more competitive part of the game and it's really stale atm.

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A single healer cannot nullify 2-3 competent dps. Notice I didn't say "good", the bar is lower. You cannot balance the game around the average dps in regs who probably utilizes 50-75% of their GCDs, has low awareness of opponent DCDs, plays at low APM and doesn't really understand how to optimize their damage rotation.

 

TTK overall is fine, the forcebound and grit teeth combo is not - especially in regs. But first you have to bring AP PT dps into line, because focebound and grit teeth is the only thing keeping pvp tanking viable in ranked vs the obscene damage that AP PTs can put out, and to a lesser extent Pyro PT and lethality operatives.

 

^this. wow. PTs didn't hit this hard when IO/assault was the burst spec. albeit the roto was less complex back in the day (3 buttons vs. 5?).

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^this. wow. PTs didn't hit this hard when IO/assault was the burst spec. albeit the roto was less complex back in the day (3 buttons vs. 5?).

 

So perhaps both TTK is ok, too high, and too low at the same time, depending on the class you are talking about. For example, AP PT gets back to back auto crit energy bursts, and thereafter every 3rd or 4th GcD when power yield is up and generating stacks. Conversely, vengeance jugg, a class nearly as squishy as AP PT, had it’s big autocrit on impale taken away when they got rid of the old set bonus. Sure, vengeance can generate numbers by dot spread but it’s fluff dmg, easily aoe healed by a competent healer. Just one example of many how some classes really got the shaft and TTK is too high for them, while for others TTK is fine. So the issue is really not TTK, it’s class balance.

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So perhaps both TTK is ok, too high, and too low at the same time, depending on the class you are talking about. For example, AP PT gets back to back auto crit energy bursts, and thereafter every 3rd or 4th GcD when power yield is up and generating stacks. Conversely, vengeance jugg, a class nearly as squishy as AP PT, had it’s big autocrit on impale taken away when they got rid of the old set bonus. Sure, vengeance can generate numbers by dot spread but it’s fluff dmg, easily aoe healed by a competent healer. Just one example of many how some classes really got the shaft and TTK is too high for them, while for others TTK is fine. So the issue is really not TTK, it’s class balance.

 

and then the scary AP PT energy burst crit goes onto a healer with guard, splitting the 70k crit into half, effectively damaging the healing sorc for around 10% of his HP with a buildup burstability, spiced up by a 1min cooldown via a tactical ability?

 

as i said in older versions of the game, a crit which did 25% of the enemy´s hp wasnt even a big crit. you cant even properly tunnel someone anymore, because dps dont hit hard anymore and a thousand defensives are being paired/chained.

 

have a look at swtor 2.0 ttk: https://www.swtormovies.com/movieview.php?id=4359

pvp was wayyy faster paced and you could properly blow people up. fun times.

better turn of the sound :D

Edited by hemeen
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If you are deciding between a short and a long fight and you want skill to matter, you want to err on the side of a long fight. Bursting down someone, even if you are the attack or the one attacked, you will use less skill in both cases than you would use if the fight is longer. Since I'm pro skill, I see nothing skillful in melting someone down in rank or regs with multiples on one person nor do I see much skill in an operative or sin that can burst someone down fast. The victim has limited chances to use his skill. Let skill flourish and keep fights long.

 

Remember the shorter the fight, the less skill that is used

Edited by eiekal
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If you are deciding between a short and a long fight and you want skill to matter, you want to err on the side of a long fight. Bursting down someone, even if you are the attack or the one attacked, you will use less skill in both cases than you would use if the fight is longer. Since I'm pro skill, I see nothing skillful in melting someone down in rank or regs with multiples on one person nor do I see much skill in an operative or sin that can burst someone down fast. The victim has limited chances to use his skill. Let skill flourish and keep fights long.

 

Remember the shorter the fight, the less skill that is used

 

if you refer to "skill" as spamming your 6 button rotation over and over again, then you are right. every utility and ability in a classes toolkit was being utilized back then aswell, they just had to be way quicker and more careful with them.

 

you cant react to burst anymore, you have to play proactive instead of reactive and predict bursts and cc´s or youre dead. this punishes bad timing and picking the wrong global cooldown for your circumstance way harder than with current ttk. heals have been way stronger aswell - a healer could burstheal you for 50-60% of your hp in a single global cooldown.

 

just because the pace of pvp is way faster, there is not less skill involved, if anything, even more because one bad choice can lead to your death.

 

let me give you an swtor example: immortal jugg pvp guides tell you to switch your guard on whoever currently gets bursted, to mitigate as much damage as you can for them. with the old swtor ttk there was no time to give anything to someone who already got bursted, you predict who gets bursted next via e.g. watching enemy movement or burst cooldowns or your mate is a cold corpse.

 

now let me give you an example from another mmorpg, with a gigantic esports scene, retail WoW:

their last big expansion reduced the overall TTK extremely hard because they saw how much people enjoyed pvp in the classic version of the game. this led to lots of players coming back to pvping not only in instanced pvp, but also it absoloutely revived worldpvp, because its just more fun to see a decent impact of each of your gcd´s. the esports scene enjoys this new meta aswell, because it doesnt unnecissarily draw out fights with inflated ttk anymore.

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if you refer to "skill" as spamming your 6 button rotation over and over again, then you are right. every utility and ability in a classes toolkit was being utilized back then aswell, they just had to be way quicker and more careful with them.

 

you cant react to burst anymore, you have to play proactive instead of reactive and predict bursts and cc´s or youre dead. this punishes bad timing and picking the wrong global cooldown for your circumstance way harder than with current ttk. heals have been way stronger aswell - a healer could burstheal you for 50-60% of your hp in a single global cooldown.

 

just because the pace of pvp is way faster, there is not less skill involved, if anything, even more because one bad choice can lead to your death.

 

let me give you an swtor example: immortal jugg pvp guides tell you to switch your guard on whoever currently gets bursted, to mitigate as much damage as you can for them. with the old swtor ttk there was no time to give anything to someone who already got bursted, you predict who gets bursted next via e.g. watching enemy movement or burst cooldowns or your mate is a cold corpse.

 

now let me give you an example from another mmorpg, with a gigantic esports scene, retail WoW:

their last big expansion reduced the overall TTK extremely hard because they saw how much people enjoyed pvp in the classic version of the game. this led to lots of players coming back to pvping not only in instanced pvp, but also it absoloutely revived worldpvp, because its just more fun to see a decent impact of each of your gcd´s. the esports scene enjoys this new meta aswell, because it doesnt unnecissarily draw out fights with inflated ttk anymore.

 

I'm surprised I'm getting opposition to this thought that the faster a fight, the less skill that will be used. This should be a given. My experience in mmo's goes farther back than the beginning of swtor and goes back to Meridian 59 and AOL never winter nights and Ive seen extremly fast fast and long tiresome fights in different mmos.

Its a simple concept. In each mmo, the faster the fight, the less skill that is used on both sides. Lets put things into extreme to get the poit across.

Going from fast to slow fights:

100 vs 1 little skill is used here in this blink of an eye fight by those attack the one person and the one person getting attacked

50 vs 1 a little more skill here

25 vs 1 a little more skill here

10 vs 1 a little more skill here

5 vs 1 a little more skill here

1 vs 1 a little more skill here

 

In the context of going from a fast to a slower fight, the 1 on 1 fight would use the most skill.

 

In context to the thread of how fast a mmo should make a fight last, an mmo doesn't want to short of a fight where a rogue type class bursts down a glass cannon nor do they want the fight to last on forever like two healers fighting eachother.

 

This holds true regardless if you define skill as a pve person would, in getting your rotations off or hitting the right ability every 1.5 secs, which is fine if you pve but I dont pve. This holds true if you see skill as a reaction time in hitting the right handful of instant cast abilities or regular abilites or how dire the consequences of not hitting them fast enough. This holds true if you have to be proactive and anticipate they'll go after the pt first and the jug second. etc

 

Multiples bursting someone down or lets say a rogue type class bursting down a glass cannon class means there wont be much skill used by anyone and an mmo has to consider this in determining how fast a fight should be.

 

The bottom line is an mmo should err on the side of a longer fight if they're pro skill.

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This unfortunately will never be "fixed."

 

The reason TTK is so high is because the format for Solo Ranked is an arena. Arenas are a different beast entirely from warzones and class balancing has to be done with the expectation that any DPS will be self-sufficient in a solo Ranked arena where there might not be any guard or healing. In order to be viable in that format each DPS needs to be able to withstand some intense pressure from multiple opposing players without the help of mitigation from teammates.

 

Since warzones play fundamentally differently than arenas, deaths are permanent, are more likely with the 8v8 format to have healers and tanks, and don't often duplicate the same sort of pressure on a single target outside of premades, the end result is that TTK is often high in Regs. You're getting a lot more 1v1 and 2v1 action with the likelihood or more healing or guard mitigation thrown into the mix. It is also why some specs that aren't considered strong in Ranked are strong in Regs.

 

The only way you could have Regs return to an era where everything dies relatively quickly without healing or guard would be if the Solo Ranked format was also 8v8 warzones, which unfortunately won't happen. That ship has long since sailed.

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some classes have very strong "stay in the fight" dcds (merc, mara, jugg).

 

Others have "escape and heal" cds: sorcs, sins, and ops have to use gcds or leave combat completely, but can also have excellent surviability.

 

PTs have pretty insane burst, and given that burst, they live an awfully long time.

 

this is all observations in regs since 5.x. I haven't been in rated for 6.x yet.

 

so what do I think? I think the first thing BW needs to do is rewrite mobility abilities which would mean rethinking a couple of classes completely. this has nothing to do with TTK directly. it's more a matter of the game engine (or server/client communication) not being capable of keeping up with the action on the map. I'm cool with op roll as a thing philosophically, but in practice - under the realistic pressures of server-client handshakes and game engine/gfx rendering - they break the game. the second an op rolls up a slight incline, he rubber bands, often he will stop jittering, come into focus, be shown running on a lower level for a few beats, then he'll be rolling away on the upper level. it's just flat broken. the game cannot handle it. you cannot kill or combat something like this, so it is related to TTK, but it's not a matter of healing or dcds. it's certain movement abilities are simply beyond this game's ability to process.

 

I would say anything beyond the sorc/sin "sprint" is asking too much of the game engine. so propulsion round, holotraverse, the sin equivalents...they all need to go, which would necessitate rethinking how BW addresses mobility, snare, and root abilities in pvp. even after that is done, some classes (thinking of ops) will need some sort of dcd b/c roll is so important to their defenses.

 

as far as dcds go, I think the game needs fewer reflects and immunities and more DR dcds like reactive shield or saber ward. I like the idea of each dps class having one dcd for white dmg or yellow dmg, but nothing that grants immunity to both and then add one (maybe two?) flat DRs. in general, I want to see DRs rather than immunities.

 

however, even if you move to DRs rather than immunities, you're still going to have a heck of a time balancing things because then everyone becomes something similar to a PT (maybe minus the burst but no dcd that can, on its own, force a focus swap). I don't have a problem with this. I think the immunities have gone overboard, but it does mean tweaking dps output for just about every class, either toning down or tuning up.

 

TL;DR: it's an incredibly complex endeavor, and I cannot begin to micro-manage it in my own head. but I would

  1. eliminate game-breaking movement abilites (replacing with dcds and adjusting snares and roots)
  2. eliminate full dmg immunity dcds and
  3. keep dcds focused on DR and make them no higher than 50% dmg reduction (ala mando shock absorbers "take 30% less dmg while stunned and 30% less dmg from aoe").

 

anyway, none of this is going to happen, and even if it did, it would take about 5 years to sort out (given the established track recorded for re-balancing), but that's how I'd like to see balance addressed from a macro perspective.

 

Pretty much agreed.

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TTK is definitely too long, thanks to power creep (in terms of defenses) that is happening since years. It started with enraged defense rework back in the 2014, but snowballed with last two expansions. Some classes have so many defensive tools that player can feel overloaded with options. Sniper and mercenary are prime examples, mercenary especially. Class that is supposed to be played as ranged, can just sit in melee and pop cooldown after cooldown. Responsive Safeguards has to be most ridiculous cooldown ever introduced in this game (reflect, heal and usable while stunned on top of that). Edited by LordMakis
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TTK is definitely too long, thanks to power creep (in terms of defenses) that is happening since years. It started with enraged defense rework back in the 2014, but snowballed with last two expansions. Some classes have so many defensive tools that player can feel overloaded with options. Sniper and mercenary are prime examples, mercenary especially. Class that is supposed to be played as ranged, can just sit in melee and pop cooldown after cooldown. Responsive Safeguards has to be most ridiculous cooldown ever introduced in this game (reflect, heal and usable while stunned on top of that).

 

mmm...I would have agreed with you 2 or 3 years ago. now though, any player with half a brain knows how to nullify that entirely. reflect is useless if players don't ST dps into it. everyone knows to aoe when it comes out. w/o a dedicated healer, it's quite unimpressive (vs. escapes like combat stealth or pacify with the 75% tech debuff - also 6s). the same is true of the trauma stabilizers on reactive shield. don't ST dps into it? he doesn't get his 40% heal. the only ability you know you're going to get is kolto overload/adrenal surge. and that's a bit chincy too, b/c while 60% is great, it's not a medpac.

 

I see reactive shield and it just means DFA, toss a couple grenades. go back to regular rotation and melt the merc. in regs, with all merc dcds off CD, I'll generally last a good long time. I may even be able to cycle reactive shield a 2nd time. but that's a reflection of really bad opponents.

 

anyway, I'm in agreement that just about every class has too much tank/heal on their dps builds. the idea that many (not all) specs need trinity went out the window ages ago in a very haphazard way. from what I hear, however, yolos are more balanced now than they ever were in the past. dunno myself. I'm still not happy with my deeps in regs in this meta. like what should be kill shots aren't finishing ppl off. lol :rolleyes:

Edited by foxmob
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