I love all the new changes coming in LotS...

 

BUT

 

The new "ability" "expertise" system is absolutely, 100% without a doubt, unadulterated garbage.

 

If you simply left the abilities alone, this would be the best change and advancement to the game in years.

 

HOWEVER

 

Seeing as that the DEVS have completely ignored player feedback on this... it may actually go down as SWTOR's NGE.

 

For those that don't get the reference, the NGE was the new game engagements in SWG that killed the game, and forced people to cancel en masse.

Edited December 6, 2021 by OrionSol

The idea that the NGE killed SWG is a tired old meme, and completely incorrect. It saved it. Subscriber numbers were dropping and the game was on the verge of being financially nonviable before the NGE. The NGE was released two and a half years after launch, and the game lasted for another SIX YEARS after it, and was only shut down to make way for SWTOR.

 

If 7.0 is truly SWG's NGE, we'll see an initial drop in subscribers, then a growth after a few months and many more years of service for the game, with a few grumpy old morons whining about it years later.

I am not even sure what exactly he is complaining about?

 

The fact that some skills were removed from being baseline and are now a choice? I see that as a great thing because some classes had far too many tools, and even in 7.0 some classes cough cough mercs still have a ton of strong tools.

 

Dcds, immunities, stuns, mobility abilities needed to be reduced in some way and even if 7.0 balance will obviously not be perfect since some classes lost a lot more than others, it is still a good start so the field is more even.

 

Dcds, immunities, stuns, mobility abilities needed to be reduced in some way

 

Why?

 

I see this stated, but rarely a reasoned argument about it.

If you cannot see why having so many DCDs is a problem, I'm not sure it can be explained to you. But, in short it adds too many tools creating too many variables creating a whack-a-mole style balancing. I mean objectively Merc DPS DCDs are significantly better versions of Jugg DPS ones, which why most juggs in pvp play Tank spec in dps gear. That's just one example in PVP. In PVE they allow for cheesing of mechanics.

 

Also as someone who played both SWG and SWTOR from early stage betas. The NGE's biggest problem was shipping waaaay too soon. It was buggy and didn't have half the feature set it should have, had it shipped in the state it was later regarding class design and balance it would have lost some players sure, but not nearly as many. It was the combination of lack of choice with an inferior product.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Anishor

Also as someone who played both SWG and SWTOR from early stage betas. The NGE's biggest problem was shipping waaaay too soon. It was buggy and didn't have half the feature set it should have, had it shipped in the state it was later regarding class design and balance it would have lost some players sure, but not nearly as many. It was the combination of lack of choice with an inferior product.

 

As someone who was also playing SWG during that time I agree. The NGE at release was pure garbage and lost a TON of players. Basically they changed the game from an open sandbox design to a very on rails themepark in order to grab from the WOW crowd and it didn't work. Yes, the game had lost subs but that was because of the incredibly buggy game and lack of things to do, not the professions or combat. I popped back in a few times later , but it was always a ghost town.

 

Unless Bioware intends to scrap and change all classes ,revamp the entire combat system as well as the AI, NGE comparison's are nothing more than hyperbole.

Edited December 7, 2021 by oslek

Why?

 

I see this stated, but rarely a reasoned argument about it.

Punishment for mistakes.

 

When someone wastes their dcd at the wrong time they deserve to be punished by not having it when they truly need it, yet when you have 2-3 godmode dcds like mercs you are able to survive a long longer simply due to the amount of dcds you have so a mistake is covered by yet another strong dcd. And we are not even talking about how good use of such multiple dcds can lead to really hard to kill targets.

 

When someone position themselves in a bad spot yet have 2-3 hyper mobility/immunity abilities then they can escape suffering the consequences of bad positions because they can keep trolololing rolling away etc

 

And too many stuns should be self explanatory, especially some classes that can consecutively hardstun while others are stuck with one, and it will make pvp stuns a more tactical weapon you should use at the right time rather than easily waste cuz you have more to use.

 

I dont want the game to turn into WoW obviously where some classes might only have a singular average dcd or weak utility but I definitely feel the number needs to be lowered down a bit.

Any talk of "balance" that starts and ends with "# of abilities" and doesn't look at ability effectiveness, cooldowns and relative class performance vs others is at best superficial and useless. It becomes insulting when classes with relative performance deficits vs others are being asked to give up the most. That's how I view the "balancing" they've done so far. Even on paper none of it makes any sense to me for either pvp or pve. If the goal was to reduce "# of buttons that should be bound" someone wasn't thinking there either.

The idea that the NGE killed SWG is a tired old meme, and completely incorrect. It saved it. Subscriber numbers were dropping and the game was on the verge of being financially nonviable before the NGE. The NGE was released two and a half years after launch, and the game lasted for another SIX YEARS after it, and was only shut down to make way for SWTOR.

 

If 7.0 is truly SWG's NGE, we'll see an initial drop in subscribers, then a growth after a few months and many more years of service for the game, with a few grumpy old morons whining about it years later.

 

 

 

As someone who used to play SWG for 8 years and was extremely involved in it, couldn't have said it better myself.

I am not even sure what exactly he is complaining about?

 

The fact that some skills were removed from being baseline and are now a choice? I see that as a great thing because some classes had far too many tools, and even in 7.0 some classes cough cough mercs still have a ton of strong tools.

 

Dcds, immunities, stuns, mobility abilities needed to be reduced in some way and even if 7.0 balance will obviously not be perfect since some classes lost a lot more than others, it is still a good start so the field is more even.

 

i agree we need balance so that it is fair for everyone:D

The idea that the NGE killed SWG is a tired old meme, and completely incorrect. It saved it. Subscriber numbers were dropping and the game was on the verge of being financially nonviable before the NGE. The NGE was released two and a half years after launch, and the game lasted for another SIX YEARS after it, and was only shut down to make way for SWTOR.

 

If 7.0 is truly SWG's NGE, we'll see an initial drop in subscribers, then a growth after a few months and many more years of service for the game, with a few grumpy old morons whining about it years later.

 

 

 

 

As someone who used to play SWG for 8 years and was extremely involved in it, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

 

As someone who was there for NGE and left it clearly wasn't a "meme". That decision was a lesson to all future mmos. Attempting to become a wow clone by completely redesigning the gameplay experience was what led to probably the biggest player exodus in mmo history.

 

Swtor served a niche market and what set it apart was that despite being an MMO you weren't reliant on groups of other people to experience the majority of content. At max level, I spent the majority of my time in combat, whether it be nightsisters on dathomir or hunting krayt dragons on tatooine - solo. If not that, could always run missions of the terminal. All you had to do before hand was visit a cantina, clear any fatigue and get buffed by an afk doc running a macro (dont forget the tip) and you're good to go for 3 hours unless the doc ran out of mats and only gave you partial buffs.

 

I had just unlocked my Jedi on the old grind when they decided to completely rework the system. Not only was it a slap in the face to everyone who had also finished or been working on the same grind, but the new cookie cutter jedi was only a fraction of what it once was, as was every other combat build.

 

I got several emails to revisit - and on the few occasions I did the places in open world that used to be covered in buildings were just empty zones. I'd bet that for every one person that felt NGE was great, you'd be able to find at least 10 more bitter about it to this day.

served a niche market and what set it apart was that despite being an MMO you weren't reliant on groups of other people to experience the majority of content. At max level, I spent the majority of my time in combat, whether it be nightsisters on dathomir or hunting krayt dragons on tatooine - solo. If not that, could always run missions of the terminal.

To a degree you have to blame the system we live under, I can only assume such DRASTIC decisions are made because the financial department stops seeing infinite growth, they more than likely believe the model you described reach its maximum growth.

And instead of being happy that they captured a chunk of gaming population which was likely small but stable, one that specifically enjoyed star wars and what you described, they show WoW making more money so they copied WoW in a quite silly and absurd hope that it would further increase their growth and profits. It is the main reason I can imagine for such an enormous change of direction.

 

To be clear, I am not familiar with that old star wars mmo, I am only assuming this based on the descriptions given here.

 

Though at least in today's Swtor, this isnt the case. They arent remaking the game or how it works, they are making small alterations to classes which for some I agree with, not because too many tools make a game even harder to balance but because if there's too many tools, it is hard to punish someone for their failures and make them learn. How will a player learn he wasnt meant to stand so close in fire when they have 3 hyper mobility abilities to save him every time? To punish them you would need to literally design more mechanics than they have tools to cheese them.

 

 

The main concern about 7.0 is the gearing system, not only removing stat customization by not having gear have different types of tertiaries, they are going back to the WoW's outdated raid or die model where all good gear is locked behind OPS.

Which honestly makes no sense, unless you have the budget, you cannot compete with ff14/wow in terms of raid releases, even with WoW being dethroned the tryhard raiders wont move to a game that releases a raid every few years, they ll go to ff14 that releases raids often.

And you would never beat wow by copying it, you would only end up being called a wow clone and WoW players wouldnt come because they ve had years of investment in WoW, they wouldnt leave it for a game that is the same with a different skin. That is why FF14 annihilated WoW, because it didnt copy WoW, it was its own independent game with a focus on story and characters and good class design.

 

So what is the point, the swtor playerbase has always been more casual, WoW has been trying for years to push casuals into hardcore raiders yet it never worked, so what is the goal of such a design philosophy?

Edited December 9, 2021 by ralphieceaser

Yeah basically they thought by mimicking wow's gameplay they could take a chunk of their market but it backfired.

 

But even Wow hit its own limit eventually. So yeah market driven decisions ultimately dictate what goes.

 

For example, loot boxes with people gambling on virtual world items has become a mainstay for many gaming genres now. Sub fees are largely a thing of the past, and considering the time and effort required to constantly update and maintain over an extended period of years... its likely too risky to invest in superb quality with no guaranteed return.

Yeah basically they thought by mimicking wow's gameplay they could take a chunk of their market but it backfired.

 

But even Wow hit its own limit eventually. So yeah market driven decisions ultimately dictate what goes.

 

For example, loot boxes with people gambling on virtual world items has become a mainstay for many gaming genres now. Sub fees are largely a thing of the past, and considering the time and effort required to constantly update and maintain over an extended period of years... its likely too risky to invest in superb quality with no guaranteed return.

Hence why the very idea that companies must seek INFINITE growth on a finite universe is beyond silly.

 

And the thing is due to their extreme short sighted need for profit many great games are cut or never made, because to make something good, you need to focus on creating a great product and that includes the process of trial and error, you are not going to create the perfect mmorpg day 1, you need to slowly learn and improve.

FF14 was never a huge mmorpg until now, after it has gone through years of expansions with a consistent and clear design direction, if SE didnt take the RISK to remake ff14 with Yoshi P., this great story game wouldnt exist.

 

 

And the thing is this isnt your average joe creating an AAA mmorpg, we are talking about megacorps who have more than enough money to safely risk, but because we live in a moronic system that demands infinite growth aka the impossible even they rarely ever take risks.

 

God that reminds me of wildstar, I absolutely loved their telegraph focused combat and silly world, too bad it tried to once again copy the outdated WoW design philosophy by pandering to the hardcore crowd and thus failing financially.

I am honestly feeling old developers could also be a source of problems, the 2004 WoW experience does not exist any more, the games are different, the players are different, you cannot copy outdated design philosophies and expect them to work in a modern environment.

I TOLD YOU SO.

 

lol

 

Loving the forums now... everyone sees what I was talking about months ago

I TOLD YOU SO.

 

lol

 

Loving the forums now... everyone sees what I was talking about months ago

 

I just wonder where are BW's little apollogists at...