It's Sorcs who get 5 free seconds of immunity because they pop force speed and the game can't decide whether they're on the scaffold or in the pit. .

you and I must be playing completely different games. I never see sorcs even try to carry the ball except as a last resort, and while force speed can glitch during elevation changes, it's nowhere near as common as lolroll.

the pit is the absolute worst map for this. ops desync from end of slime to ez. and they cover the distance with a holotraverse and 2 or 3 lolrolls (depending on when and where they holotraverse). guaranteed desync on at least one roll from ball spawn to ez ledge. often 2 if they roll onto ez ledge.

vandin is actually the best hb map in limiting desync on movement buffs. except for the lip before the center fire trap and the walls behind them, I'm not sure why vandin is so much better b/c it has a lot of elevation changes. I think maybe it's a slower map. I haven't tried to roll the electro plates yet, but I've gotten stuck on them with rocketout and

deception sprint (both w/o all the skill tree perks).

quesh isn't even worth mentioning since the vast majority of players just TDM at mid most games. but it's also bugged for JK/War leaps at the most important place for objective play (ez ledge).

you and I must be playing completely different games. I never see sorcs even try to carry the ball except as a last resort, and while force speed can glitch during elevation changes, it's nowhere near as common as lolroll.

you indeed must be playing a different game. again, this is not a class specific issue. any movement enhancing ability + change in elevation = desync. this is not a reason to nerf ops, your issue is with the huttball maps/desync issues.

y I never see sorcs even try to carry the ball except as a last resort, and while force speed can glitch during elevation changes, it's nowhere near as common as lolroll.

as I reread this, I should also point out that sorcs shouldn't be carriers anyway. tbetter to get ahead as a leap/holo target and they pull carriers. just more effective for that class.

as I reread this, I should also point out that sorcs shouldn't be carriers anyway. tbetter to get ahead as a leap/holo target and they pull carriers. just more effective for that class.

That doesn't change my point at all. Sorcs make great ball carriers, and they can defend nodes better than Operatives. They also off-heal better than Operatives. Mercs off-heal better and have more DCDs and escapes. I could keep going. The fact is that pretty much everything that people complain about on Operatives can be done better by someone else. No one expects them to, because those classes would be better for the team at mid than an Operative would be.

Keep playing your game where Operatives are unkillable slaughter machines and skilled players never run the ball on other classes, and Huttball is apparently the only PvP that pops. When I come back to the forums in another six months, it'll be the same people voicing the same complaints, refusing to improve themselves just like it is this time.

Sorcs make great ball carriers, and they can defend nodes better than Operatives.

heh. ok. well. you keep telling yourself that. gl hf.

heh. ok. well. you keep telling yourself that. gl hf.

Well thanks for proving what I've been saying.

Yeah, the class with 2 breaks, a teleport, 35m range, and the ability to interrupt while stunned/mezzed is totally bad at defending.

Sorcs make great ball carriers, and they can defend nodes better than Operatives. They also off-heal better than Operatives.

Every part of this is wrong.

Sorcs rely on kiting, phase walk and barrier to survive, none of which they can do whilst carrying the ball. Ops rely on roll (CD reduced with PVP set), holo to teammate or opposition (doubled with tactical), reflect/immunity, stuns (doubled with PVP set) and excellent self healing, all of which they can use whilst carrying the ball. A sorc can run one fire trap and lose 50% health. Fire traps don't exist for ops. Ops will typically dsync at least once on a ball run giving them an additional 5 seconds of immunity.

Sorcs are decent node defenders but a stalling sorc will get burnt down much faster than a stalliing op unless the op is very very inexperienced.

In general combat an op gets first strike, double hard stun, triple if they hamstring and they should be able to get most targets down to 50% within that lock. They can then roll and heal until their next stun window or just rely on their immunity/reflect and self heals to go toe to toe with an opponent who is starting at half health. If things aren't working out they can vanish/sap/heal and start from scratch again at a time of their choosing.

Yes, I play both

Not sure how a L2P argument for operatives is still being used here. Every legitimate pvper I've spoken to agrees that both dps specs for operatives are blatantly overpowered. Lethality cleaves harder than any other cleave spec in the game despite being on a stealth class and having strong self-heals and survivability. Concealment's burst opener, roll immunity, and excess of cc make it extremely difficult to handle in 1v1 situations.

Operative heals do need a bit of a tune-up through. without guard they don't seem to perform very well compared to the other 2 healing specs.

I think the best indicator of conc op damage is their 1mil damage parse. Most of the damage done in pvp is done during burst windows. This applies much more for melee classes, since they won't always be on the target for long enough to use their filler abilities. Conc ops are only in third place behind ap pts and pyrotechs, and everyone already understands that pt burst during firefall is beyond busted.

Not sure how a L2P argument for operatives is still being used here. Every legitimate pvper I've spoken to agrees that both dps specs for operatives are blatantly overpowered.

then every "legitimate pvper" you know doesn't know what they're talking about, and/or is incapable or critical thought.

Lethality cleaves harder than any other cleave spec in the game despite being on a stealth class and having strong self-heals and survivability.

dead wrong. snipers and sorcs have higher cleave potential than lethality does. even hatred sin has higher cleave potential, although hardly anyone plays it because it's so squishy.

Concealment's burst opener, roll immunity, and excess of cc make it extremely difficult to handle in 1v1 situations.

true, concealment is indeed OP in 1v1 setting. however, in gerneral, in warzones, they actually do sub par overall damage compared to any other burst spec. AP PT, fury or carnage mara, deception assassin, hell even arsenal mercs are all going to completely wipe the floor with conc op damage.

seriously, you guys need to L2P.

then every "legitimate pvper" you know doesn't know what they're talking about, and/or is incapable or critical thought.

 

 

 

dead wrong. snipers and sorcs have higher cleave potential than lethality does. even hatred sin has higher cleave potential, although hardly anyone plays it because it's so squishy.

 

 

 

true, concealment is indeed OP in 1v1 setting. however, in gerneral, in warzones, they actually do sub par overall damage compared to any other burst spec. AP PT, fury or carnage mara, deception assassin, hell even arsenal mercs are all going to completely wipe the floor with conc op damage.

 

seriously, you guys need to L2P.

Nah bro thats just beyond wrong. I've never in my entire time pvping ever seen a sorc or sniper out cleave a leth op. Leth op's just cleave far easier than sorcs operatives or snipers, and their dots do every significant damage. If you had people stacked and stationary the entire wz, maybe a leth op could be outcleaved by a venge jugg or a sorc, but that never happens.

I've seen conc operatives pull 12k+ in matches. People don't play them often, but when they do, their single target dps is very strong. I hope you're joking about arsenal, the marauder specs and deception. Just by looking at the 1mil parses, you should be able to tell that conc as the advantage here. Not to mention the fact that conc ops are less succeptible to slows, because their roll isnt affected by slows. Therefore, they're able to spend more time on target than other melee dps classes that just get movement speed buffs. AP PT is really the main burst spec that always beats conc operatives, and AP burst is beyond broken.

I'd say you're incapable of critical thought if you can't recognize that leth ops are outcleaving every other spec without even trying.

Nah bro thats just beyond wrong. I've never in my entire time pvping ever seen a sorc or sniper out cleave a leth op. Leth op's just cleave far easier than sorcs operatives or snipers, and their dots do every significant damage. If you had people stacked and stationary the entire wz, maybe a leth op could be outcleaved by a venge jugg or a sorc, but that never happens.

sorcs and snipers (the ones who know what they're doing), out cleave everyone. much like the scenario you posed with veng jugg with everyone stacking up; that is the scenario in which a leth op is more likely to do top damage. most of the time people are spread out in a wider area than what toxic haze can cover though. which means, at least for the majority of games, it is far easier for sorcs and snipers to cleave in these instances than it is lethality. not to mention the fact that sniper and sorcs typically get to do all that while free casting (ranged). where as leth has to be in the middle of everything, taking damage, being stunned, rooted, and slowed constantly.

I've seen conc operatives pull 12k+ in matches. People don't play them often, but when they do, their single target dps is very strong. I hope you're joking about arsenal, the marauder specs and deception. Just by looking at the 1mil parses, you should be able to tell that conc as the advantage here.

see, you're making assumptions that seem logical to you, but you obviously dont have any experience in the matter. i myself main leth and conc, i am well aware that conc has great burst and do well above 12k dps consistently, this isn't the issue. what everyone has been arguing about in this thread is whether or not operatives (or conc ops) are OP or not and whether they should be nerfed. i tried to add some actual logic to that argument by comparing it to other burst specs. the fact of the matter is 12k dps isn't bad (for conc), but you can easily do 16k+ dps on most of the other burst specs, this is why other burst specs overall damage at the end of games almost always eclipses that of conc ops.

Not to mention the fact that conc ops are less succeptible to slows, because their roll isnt affected by slows. Therefore, they're able to spend more time on target than other melee dps classes that just get movement speed buffs.

conc ops roll immunity does help it's mobility. but besides that, conc ops have no other movement enhancing ability. compared to other burst specs they are quite slow, this is why it's far harder to stay on top of a target as conc op then any other melee class (even with hit and run). play conc operative with hit and run, then go play deception or fury (or any ranged) and tell me again that it is easier to stay on top of a target as conc op.

btw, conc isn't the only one with immunity, almost all of them do. also, this is exactly why the debilitators set is needed for conc op. conc ops are too slow, so if you can't lock down your tagets you're not going to get many kills because there is no way you're going to be able to stay on top of them without the extra stuns.

I'd say you're incapable of critical thought if you can't recognize that leth ops are outcleaving every other spec without even trying.

i main lethality and come in top damage almost every single warzone. regardless of whether im queueing solo against premades, or my team is getting completely farmed, or otherwise, lethality is strong cleave. but in a game with sorcs or snipers of similar skill it is far easier for them to out cleave a leth op partially simply due to ranged; if you want to out dps a really good sorc or sniper on a leth op, you better be prepared to get sweaty (figuratively speaking).

Actually there is a fix for the HB issue. BW needs to fix the HB obstacles. When the game came out, you did not run trough the fire or acid pits. The obstacles should kill everybody, as it was ORIGINALY intended.

BW needs to fix (almost) every map in the game. or just nerf all the movement buffs. there's another thread about this (started by an OP, btw). the fact of the matter is that these G1 maps are easily broken by all the movement abilities in classes 6 patches removed from when the WZs were created.

Operative are capable out outcleaving other classes because their dot spread applies 2 dots, and they can apply their shrapnel bomb dot easily since its an aoe. All they need is for people to group up once, for a short amount of time, and then they have triple dot damage and a strong internal burst aoe (bushwhack +backblast) on all the other targets. Lightning sorcs cannot dot spread. They can apply a dot to everyone single person and use chain lightning to refresh the dot, but for them to deal consistent cleave damage people need to be grouped. Madness sorcs can dotspread, but their cleave window is a bit smaller than lethality's and when pressured they gas out very quickly since so much of their damage relies on channeled abilities. MM sniper's don't have dot spread, players have to be grouped consistently for them do deal cleave damage. Engi sniper's are almost the same, and virulence sniper's dotspread is too small to do as much damage as lethality. Operatives are simply the strongest spec for cleaving, because their cleave allows them to do the most damage, and apply the most dot in a short period of time. And they can repeat that every 14 seconds.

where as leth has to be in the middle of everything, taking damage, being stunned, rooted, and slowed constantly.

And despite all of that, in every match I've seen, the leth op does more damage than any other spec.

i tried to add some actual logic to that argument by comparing it to other burst specs. the fact of the matter is 12k dps isn't bad (for conc), but you can easily do 16k+ dps on most of the other burst specs, this is why other burst specs overall damage at the end of games almost always eclipses that of conc ops.

Honestly I loled at this because its obvious now you either have no idea what you're talking about, or u haven't played swtor in a very long time. 16k dps matches for single target burst specs Do Not Happen. For that to happen, you'd have to be parsing on the most braindead healer in history with atleast 1 other healers supporting him. And you could not targeted the entire game. That type of match is a one and a million situation for single target damage specs. Cleave specs are really the only specs that can pull those type of numbers. The fact that you think 16k matches are "easily" pulled by single target classes just shows how out of touch you are.

conc ops roll immunity does help it's mobility. but besides that, conc ops have no other movement enhancing ability. compared to other burst specs they are quite slow, this is why it's far harder to stay on top of a target as conc op then any other melee class (even with hit and run).

Are you just trolling now? Conc op's have surrender 50% movement speed for 6 seconds, and blasterwhip which is on less than a 6 second cooldown, increases their movement speed by 50% for 3 seconds.

btw, conc isn't the only one with immunity, almost all of them do. also, this is exactly why the debilitators set is needed for conc op.

Wrong, conc ops dodge/resist all incoming attacks for 1.5seconds when they roll. They are the only spec with this. Roll by itself only increases ranged and melee dodge chance by 30%.

Honestly I have my doubts that you've ever played either of these specs. Every decent lethality op I've seen has never been outdpsed in a cleave match before. They usually don't get outdpsed in single target matches either. Sorcs and snipers just don't have the ability to cleave as hard.

It would be nice if you noobs who don't feel like putting any effort into learning how operative works so you can try to counter it would at least name the character who touched you and made you whine about it on the forums.

protip; spec into snares to prevent the op from rolling and use them 1.5 sec after the op rolls, or wait for the dbl roll and they are just sitting there for 6-8 seconds, to prevent them from being resisted.

Are you also they type of player who uses 2 of your cc's after a jugg leaps to you or a mara uses force crush? At least try to put a little effort into learning how to fight a class. Getting rid of roll immunity on conc along with the auto crit tactical would completely gut the spec. And to whine about that when juggs do the same dmg as concealment but can keep their whole team alive and all their defensive cd's is completely insane. Or to whine about concealment burst when PT exists or a sniper can do the entire concealment burst in one shot. If they nerfed concealment AGAIN, it will have been nerfed twice before PT, which also had bad defensive cd's compared to other classes, was even touched.

There are some design and population issues that can make some classes seem worse. Operatives have to spend a lot of time that could be spent attacking trying to stay alive. Using rolls and self heals means they aren't attacking and they have to constantly do this when they are being attacked. However, if the operative is on the stronger team and doesn't have to spend any of the time that they are attacking to try to keep themselves alive, then they can spend more time attacking and might make them look better than a normal match with even teams. Tanks and healers are very strong in this game and when good players group up it often causes massive team imbalances. Also, the pvp population is so small due to bad design over the lifetime of the game that noobs are playing with people who have been playing the game for 10+ years. The low population combined with better players usually grouping together to get less of the bad players on their team causes teams to be so wildly imbalanced and some classes might perform better in this situation than others.

All that being said, I agree operative is op in huttball with double holotraverse and a particular talent I won't mention. But like 15 people in the game care about winning huttballs and they are much less common than they used to be.

Also, contrary to what has been said in this thread, slows do effect the roll. I roll like 2 ft after being force crushed or spike slowed. People also seem to pretend every operative is simultaneously lethality and concealment and has both tacticians and debilitators equipped.

Operatives are the most mobile class in the game and the top 1 on 1 class in the game since... forever?

The worse part of it is its an ability that moves the operative and the operative doesn't have to rely on their movement skills like other classes have too. What is roll? On a 12 second cooldown I mean? The movement ability for jug is dash and its on a 45 second cooldown.

Here is how you put operatives in line with everyone else and they'll have to rely more on their movement skills rather

than on an ability that moves them. Put roll on a 45 second cooldown just like jug.

I understand why operatives are fighting like hell not to get this nerfed because they want to keep the status of top dog. I get it and so does everyone else that reads your posts where you're trying to not get nerfed.

If my jug has dash on a 12 second cooldown, I'd be probably saying that its a class defining ability and it will ruin the class if its changed etc.

operatives have held the top dog spot since the game started? Pretty much. Other classes had things nerfed to hell and they are still around with the patch changes. Operatives will survive a roll nerf just like other classes have survived their nerfs. Time for operatives to let another class have a turn as top dog.

...

Who cares about cleave? Burst is king.

Also, leth ops are easy kills... except for baddies apparently.

And despite all of that, in every match I've seen, the leth op does more damage than any other spec.

what server do you play on?

Honestly I loled at this because its obvious now you either have no idea what you're talking about, or u haven't played swtor in a very long time. 16k dps matches for single target burst specs Do Not Happen. For that to happen, you'd have to be parsing on the most braindead healer in history with atleast 1 other healers supporting him. And you could not targeted the entire game. That type of match is a one and a million situation for single target damage specs. Cleave specs are really the only specs that can pull those type of numbers. The fact that you think 16k matches are "easily" pulled by single target classes just shows how out of touch you are.

you mean those matches are one in a million for you. i myself have done 16k on deception and 18k on fury, obviously that isn't average, but it is doable.

Are you just trolling now? Conc op's have surrender 50% movement speed for 6 seconds, and blasterwhip which is on less than a 6 second cooldown, increases their movement speed by 50% for 3 seconds.

first of all, i didn't mean overall, i meant it's the only movement enhancing ability available to each spec. conc ops, and conc ops only, do have 50% increased movement after surrender. increased speed after blaster whip is only a utility, that is hit and run. the only spec you might want to take hit and run on is concealment. for either of the other specs it is a waste of a utility point.

Wrong, conc ops dodge/resist all incoming attacks for 1.5seconds when they roll. They are the only spec with this. Roll by itself only increases ranged and melee dodge chance by 30%.

exactly, only conc. (some) other specs with immunity; fury marauder - force crush: "passive ability that makes Force Crush grant interrupt, stun, pull, and knockback immunity for 6 seconds", deception assassin - dark stability: "Activating Deflection grants 6 seconds of immunity to stun, sleep, lift, and incapacitating effects", juggernaut - unstoppable: "Force Charge grants Unstoppable, granting immunity to movement-impairing effects and effects that push or pull you around for 4 seconds", through power: "Enraged Defense increases your movement speed by 50% and grants immunity to movement impairing effects while active", brawn: "Force Charge grants Brawn, providing immunity to interrupts, stuns, knockdowns, and incapacitating effects for 4 seconds. In addition, damage reduction is increased by 20% for the duration of Brawn".

lightning sorcerer - emersion: "force Speed grants Emersion, removing all movement-impairing effects and granting immunity to them for the duration", mercenary - hydraulic overrides: "Grants 6 seconds of immunity from movement-impairing effects, knockdowns and physics and increases movement speed by 30%", powertechs - hydraulic overrides also.

Honestly I have my doubts that you've ever played either of these specs. Every decent lethality op I've seen has never been outdpsed in a cleave match before. They usually don't get outdpsed in single target matches either. Sorcs and snipers just don't have the ability to cleave as hard.

again, what server do you play on?

Operatives are the most mobile class in the game and the top 1 on 1 class in the game since... forever?

operatives are NOT one of the most mobiles classes in the game, in fact they are one of the least mobile classes in the game. concealment is the only spec that has inherent movement enhancement other than roll, and even concealment is slow in comparison to the other dps specs.

The worse part of it is its an ability that moves the operative and the operative doesn't have to rely on their movement skills like other classes have too. What is roll? On a 12 second cooldown I mean? The movement ability for jug is dash and its on a 45 second cooldown.

this is completely nonsensical. there is no comparison between mad dash and roll, if you were going to try to logically compare roll to any of the movement enhancing abilities on warrior it would be force leap that you're looking for, not mad dash.

Here is how you put operatives in line with everyone else and they'll have to rely more on their movement skills rather than on an ability that moves them. Put roll on a 45 second cooldown just like jug.

put the only movement enhancing ability in existence for two specs on a 45 sec CD, f**king genius.

I understand why operatives are fighting like hell not to get this nerfed because they want to keep the status of top dog. I get it and so does everyone else that reads your posts where you're trying to not get nerfed.

you don't understand anything.

If my jug has dash on a 12 second cooldown, I'd be probably saying that its a class defining ability and it will ruin the class if its changed etc.

again, warriors do have a movement enhancing ability that is equatable to roll. it's force leap, not mad dash.

operatives have held the top dog spot since the game started? Pretty much. Other classes had things nerfed to hell and they are still around with the patch changes. Operatives will survive a roll nerf just like other classes have survived their nerfs. Time for operatives to let another class have a turn as top dog.

whatever, not even going to acknowledge the rest. your entire post is utterly ridiculous, and incorrect on nearly every single point attempted.

operatives are NOT one of the most mobiles classes in the game, in fact they are one of the least mobile classes in the game. concealment is the only spec that has inherent movement enhancement other than roll, and even concealment is slow in comparison to the other dps specs.

 

 

 

this is completely nonsensical. there is no comparison between mad dash and roll, if you were going to try to logically compare roll to any of the movement enhancing abilities on warrior it would be force leap that you're looking for, not mad dash.

 

 

 

put the only movement enhancing ability in existence for two specs on a 45 sec CD, f**king genius.

 

 

 

you don't understand anything.

 

 

 

again, warriors do have a movement enhancing ability that is equatable to roll. it's force leap, not mad dash.

 

 

 

whatever, not even going to acknowledge the rest. your entire post is utterly ridiculous, and incorrect on nearly every single point attempted.

Of course operatives are one of the most mobile classes in the game. They have a mobility ability that is on a, what, 12 sec cooldown? I forget but its something like that. I play a jug and my mobility ability is on a 45 second cooldown called mad dash.

These two abilies are what you compare unlike force leap which is a gab closer and requires a target. So yes, absolutely, operatives are one of the most mobile classes in the game since they have a mobility ability that is on a 12 second cooldown unlike mad dash which is 45 seconds.

I realize that ppl try to muddy the water to make it that their class isn't strong but

but please dont ever compare abilities like roll and mad dash which are mobility abilities and force leap that is a gap closer that you need a target to leap too. Mobility ability and gap closer that you go to the target. Think hard on this and maybe you'll understand the difference. HINT: mobility ability doesn't need a target.

So now that we establish the difference between a mobility ability and a gap closer, make the mobility abilities comparable. Put roll on a 45 sec cooldown to match jug mad dash mobility ability. I'm certainly flexible about 45 sec since I know that operatives will cry like hell because with the change, there will be as many operatives in rank as there are now with jugs.

But if you still dont see the difference, then please help me to start a campaign to change leap so that it doesn't need a target. I'll be happy with that. We can rename it to, leap to where ever the hell we want.

Everyone knows operatives have been the top dog class since pretty much game has started. I'm talking pvp since I never pve and even leveled by pvp.) Search your feelings. You know this to be true. Or you can research the forums and ask people that have been around pvp since the game started.

Everyone knows operatives have been the top dog class since pretty much game has started. .

you should stop. you're not helping the cause of rational class re-balance. ^this statement is patently absurd and would get you laughed out of any pvp channel/room/pb/discussion. concealment in particular has had quite the roller coaster ride of nerfs and buffs "since pretty much game has started."

you should stop. you're not helping the cause of rational class re-balance. ^this statement is patently absurd and would get you laughed out of any pvp channel/room/pb/discussion. concealment in particular has had quite the roller coaster ride of nerfs and buffs "since pretty much game has started."

I disagree. You even suggesting otherwise makes me think there is a misunderstanding. Operatives has been a top 1 on 1 class longer than any other class in the game. Are we in agreement with this added clarity? Because if you still say I'm wrong, I'd have to suggest to whoever your friends are that they should stop being casuals and pvp more. Maybe its their first mmo and they all are operatives and they down play the class so its not nerfed.

CheesyEZ, I made a rationial argument about the different between a gap closing ability and a mobility ability and how they arent the same and gave evidence on how they differ. I'm contributing by dispelling the smoke being blow up my butt when I read that a gap closer ability is comparible to a moblity ability. I'm also suggesting that if a nerf be made,it should be with roll. Let roll be a gap closing ability that needs a enemy target and you will see operatives come to the forum and say how they're quitting. Now with this established that a gap closer ability is significantly different than a mobility ability, we can talk about how far of a nerf is needed to roll.

I'm sure that many operatives wont like any nerfs other that a wrist slap to get people off their back. I put forth my contribution to the thread on how I think operative should be nerfed and thats to make roll require a target. Having so much mobility is rediculous. Think how people would scream of a jug had mad dash on the same mechanics as operative roll. We dont even have to add on the damage immunity and we know that jug have a 12 sec with the option to double dash every 12 secs would be crazy strong. If you're willing for roll to be nerfed, would you be good with adding 10 seconds more to the cooldown of roll?

Many classes were nerfed into the ground and were readjusted with future patches. Operatives would survive my nerf suggestion just as well as any other class that get hit hard with a nerf bat. Operatives need to be hit hard, make no mistake. They don't need their wrists simply slapped iwth a nerf. The very presence of this long thread is one example of evidence that this is true.

I disagree. You even suggesting otherwise makes me think there is a misunderstanding. Operatives has been a top 1 on 1 class longer than any other class in the game.

they're the best dueling class in the game and have been since the game's inception. ok. that's kind of relevant in stealing nodes or being the last man standing in an arena. that's a very specialized distinction and a very far cry from being the best pvp class. they were, in fact, nerfed to the ground for at least 2 years, more iirc.

your intricate mental gymnastics in an attempt to distinguish a "closer" from a "mobility aid" is an exercise in irrelevance. all "mobility aids" are used as escapes, closers, and resists. the problem with nerfing roll is that it is the class' primary dcd.

for example, blade bliz (sent's mad dash) is on a similar 45s cd. it's a closer, escape/movement buff, and a tool to resist big dmg. ops use roll exactly the same way. the big difference is that ops can roll 3x-4x more frequently. HOWEVER, you cannot simply stretch out the CD on roll and call it a day. sentinels have an entire bag of tricks to mitigate/avoid dmg that ops don't have. pacify, rebuke, saber ward, GBF, transcendence, 2 stealths ever 45s. that actually dwarfs what an op has. it's just that ~60% of an op's dcds are "rolled" into roll. so no. it's not at all as simple a matter as nerfing roll. it's a rat's nest to disentangle.

and arguing over whether something is a "closer" or a "movement ability" is...I don't even know what? is irrelevant strong enough? a pointless tangent? I'll tell you what it looks like. it looks like you want to prove how smart you are and make a meaningless distinction so you can "win" an argument on the internet.

I'm all for getting rid of roll. the game engine/maps cannot handle it. I'd like to get rid of it entirely. but that requires rethinking the class dcds and mobility entirely. furthermore, I'm conflicted about the "power" of ops because they're a bit of a plague in regs. but the thing that makes them so bad in regs isn't why they're popular in arenas. yeah, they can move and escape but honestly, they're just a good stealth class in arenas. in regs, they bug out on half the maps.

edit: the power creep for mobility especially but dmg abils too is very noticeable in 6.x. between the set bonuses, amps, and tacticals. I think it went a bit overboard.