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Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

Savej's Avatar


Savej
07.24.2021 , 01:35 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
...
If you want an argument that isn't full of giant holes, maybe take the following and run with it:

For a new player there are so many abilities that it takes a long time to learn which ability should be pressed in anticipation of what the game is telling them will occur in the near future. That makes it hard to transition from the very slow "surprise" type of reaction time to the much faster "partial anticipation" sort of reaction time.
...
I don't have anything to argue about on the rest of your post. To the above I'll just point out that new players aren't dealing with more than a few keys unless they do things to skip the leveling process. I don't care about players that skip the leveling process and then complain about too many buttons. Similarly I don't care about players that "return" for a month or two every couple years and forget everything about their layout. They should give themselves time to relearn the game or stick to story content with just a few buttons or not bother.

captainbladejk's Avatar


captainbladejk
07.25.2021 , 07:39 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurj View Post
I like the idea of faster kill times in PVP. I also miss the days when completing your class story required some basic knowledge of the class and its abilities. So, if the revamp succeeds in reducing survivability across the board, I would be a happy camper.

But, in terms of whether this move makes sense at this point in the game's lifecycle, I don't understand why they would go to the effort. Numbers have been dwindling for years now, and I don't see that changing in a fundamental way. The engine is terrible, the game is outdated, and the only reason we Star Wars nerds stick around is because it's the only game in town.

If it were my call, I wouldn't risk alienating the existing playerbase of a 10-year-old game in a genre that seems to have past its prime. But, here's to hoping the devs know something we don't. I'd love to see this game get popular again.
This is easily accomplished by restricting the more powerful abilities from use in PVP and can be done without needing to steal them from folks on the PVE side of things. Except we both know that’s not how they’re going to do it. It’s going to be a blanket approach that screws the PVE side over for the sake of PVP.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurj View Post
Eliminating DCDs fits both of those criteria, so I think my original point stands.

Skanks have been around forever. I don't think we have enough information yet to assume it's going to get worse due to 7.0.
But we do actually, the PTS showed half of the Guardian toolkit being removed. That’s a nerf of massive proportions to both sides of the game. Folks shouldn’t be dying in one hit in PVP unless they’re getting mobbed by half of the map, but they shouldn’t be nigh invincible on their own either. So where do you stick the balance point? This is why they need to separate PVP and PVE like World of Warcraft did. They’ve more than made clear what they did to Guardians on the PTS they intended to do to all other classes. So that is in fact information to show they intend to gut all other classes. Some will probably be worse off than others, but again it’s still a massive nerf and theft of abilities for no valid reason. If you want to hold the position we don’t have enough info, you’re entitled to that opinion. However for the purposes of the feedback they asked for, they asked for it based on what we had at that moment, which means the “wait and see” approach doesn’t apply in this instance.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I've never been in the situation where I wanted to kite an enemy that could be slowed. The only enemies worth kiting as a melee are bosses that are immune to slows anyway. For a ranged character kiting makes sense, for a Juggernaut it simpl does not. Most of your important abilities are 4m ranged. Are you going around kiting random trash mobs just to slow people down? Freezing Force is a waste of a global cooldown in nearly every pve scenario.
You’re making several very large opinion based and unprovable assumptions here. If a particular mob or boss is immune to slows, the argument doesn’t apply in the first place, so why bring that up when it’s a nonpoint that has nothing to do with the previous conversation? There are plenty of mobs and even bosses that can be slowed, too many for me to list every single one of them here. If a mob needs to be kited or the goal is to kite the mob, all I care about is if the person can actually kite the mob. In my guild if we need to kite a mob, sometimes that role falls to one of our melee guys who is a Guardian/Jugg, because the guy is a veteran player that knows what to do and how to kite mobs. You can argue it would be more efficient if we used one of the ranged guys as that would be a fair and legitimate argument. However simply because it’s not “optimal” doesn’t preclude the possibility of a Guardian/Jugg kiting a mob.

Also I find it telling that you seem to think people choosing to play differently than you do must automatically mean they’re a troll. Folks employing abilities differently than you, or using different strategy than you doesn’t make one a troll, especially if both strategies actually work. The fact you would even trying to bring that point up stinks of gatekeeping and is nothing but a modern spin on the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Please read my post again. You're completely missing the point. I'm not saying we don't need a slow with range because we already have a root. I'm saying that if we already have a root with 30m range, what makes you think it so unlikely that they'll make a 30m ranged slow? Surely if that would be so crazy strong, we wouldn't have something even stronger. (So much stronger that you consider it appropriate comparing it to the difference between a fire extinguisher and a fire department mind you).
You didn’t come right out and say it, but that’s where your line of logic ultimately leads. Freezing Force itself is already an AOE slow that can slow multiple foes vs roots which can only root one foe generally, and roots that could hit more than one foe, are extremely limited in range. These roots are also further balanced by the fact they typically have a heftier cooldown to them. In this instance you’re basically asking them to give you a slow capable of hitting multiple targets at once, let you spam it far more often than we could today, PLUS let you do it from a 30m range. That would objectively become the best slow in the game hands down. You’re certainly free to advocate for such a thing, but you’re not thinking it through far enough to see how overpowered that would be. A 30m single target slow that can be spammed that often is one thing, but an AOE slow that can be spammed that often is a completely different ballgame. This would mean that a Guardian/Jugg could keep that slow up 2/3 of the time of that cooldown. If a team has 2 Guardians/Juggs, that slow could be maintained on an entire group indefinitely AND from range. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is. And my second most played class is the Guardian/Jugg.


Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
As a ranged toon sure I guess, but Juggernauts aren't ranged toons. Juggernauts couldn't nuke wet toilet paper from a distance. See if they were messing with slows on say a Sorcerer, sure that'd make sense. But we're not.
See above on this point. Guardians/Juggs can indeed kite, even though it may not be as “efficient” for them to do so. I’ve already explained above why this would be extremely overpowered.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
That's simply false. They've very clearly stated the intention is to have you make the choice in every tier, and giving you the option to save your own presets. Right now, because we're in an early testing version, they've made the presets to give an idea of the changes they're making. This is not how it's intended to ship. Bioware stated the following:
"For this PTS phase, you will only be able to choose static builds we have chosen for you. Future phases will allow you to more freely choose various abilities and passives as you level."
The fact that you somehow missed this is somewhat surprising considering the amount of time you've put into this. Maybe spend a little more time carefully reading and a little less just making things up.
Actions speak louder than words. They can say what they want all day long, but their actions are what matter. If they say one thing but do another, then it doesn’t matter what they said because that’s not what happened. They say they want us to use a wider variety of toolkit, yet are massively shrinking the toolkit. They say they want to give us more choice, yet are stealing choices from us. They say they want choices to be more meaningful for our story, yet are restricting the choices and abilities we get to use on our characters. No matter how you slice it, that is factually less substance. You disliking it doesn’t make it any less true.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
It's not a massive upgrade, but that's missing the point. You are complaining about the range like it's a downgrade. It simply factually isn't a downgrade as far as range is concernd, it's an upgrade (albeit a small one).

Yes sure, Blade Sorm is useless outside of 10m range. That's still better than it is right now on live with Freezing Force, which is dead outisde 8m range. I honestly don't understand how you can even bring up the range thing as an issue with the changes when the range is objectively getting (slightly) better.
I don’t know where the communication breakdown has occurred but there’s definitely one somewhere. My issue has never been about the range as you’re trying to make it out to be. My issue is that this change isn’t adding anything new, it’s simply shifting the source of the slow from one place to another while stealing control over it proccing from me. By tying it to a rotational ability it’s been made so you either skip that ability, or you waste our slow. As to why they made it 10m instead of sticking with 8m, they had to make a choice. Do they do a special bit of coding to keep the slow at 8m, do they reduce Blade Storm to 8m, or do they just call it 10m and a day? Going with the 10m allows them to pretend they’ve done this massive upgrade with the ability when they haven’t. You’re still not exceeding the original specs of Blade Storm, and all you’re doing is stealing control from people by shifting the source of the slow. If you want to call it an “upgrade” congratulations you’ve found a technicality to cling to without addressing the other issues. Doing something new would be combining those 2 powers, and giving us a single target slow. If they combined the abilities together AND upped the range to say 20m or even the 30m at the same time, that would be something new, even if overpowered beyond belief. Yet by the overhyping they’re doing for the Blade Storm adjustment, you would think they actually did make it baseline 30m, but they didn’t. All they’ve done is potentially combine the two powers and steal my control over when the slow actually goes off. It’s no different than if World of Warcraft suddenly recombined interrupts into the abilities they were previously. It’s not an upgrade, but a massive downgrade and a token gesture.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Just let me be clear once again, I never said it's a massive upgrade. I said the range specifically is an upgrade (and it objectively is). So complaining about the range makes absolutely no sense at all.
As for ranged characters being able to kite melee characters. Well that depends on their toolkit. I'm pretty sure ranged characters too will get a changed around kit. They too will lose abilities, and thus be not as good at kiting. Will this balance out entirely to a state where both the melee and ranged dps will evenly compete? Well that will depend on the exact state of the coming changes to other classes.

There's nothing wrong with expressing concern with the loss of mobility and how it'll affect kiting, but to just assume that the ranged dps's ability to kite will stay unchanged is a bit silly.
See above, the range was not my complaint but was used to illustrate how it’s not the upgrade they make it out to be. Otherwise saying “these other classes are losing abilities as well” doesn’t make it better and actually proves my original point they’re just wanting to nerf everyone for no valid reason. “Those guys lost abilities as well” isn’t an argument and actually makes things worse.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
This is kind of your schtick isn't it? To make long-winded paragraphs across multiple posts touting unfounded assumptions, then refer people to your previous post in another thread that reply to a different poster. Am I now supposed to break down your posts sentence by sentence?

I'm not taking any abilities off of my bars, nor am I removing my gear. When I play a game, I use every tool available to me.

I've been around since launch, so you don't have to tell me how the game used to be. I used to solo the old H2's and H4's to be better at my class(es). And a level 23 on a level 40 planet would have been mobbed by... mobs... at 50-70 meters because high level mobs detect low level toons at greater range. This game is incredibly watered down now, so it's my hope that some revamping of classes might also be coupled with a revamping of game difficulty.

I try to be quick and concise in my posts. You're not obliged to read them, nor am I obliged to read a treatise on nothing, especially on a video game forum.
That right there in blue is your problem and why you have no business or right to complain about anything. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You claim certain abilities make the game too easy, yet you want to continue to benefit from the use of those abilities even though by your own admission, they have a negative effect on your gameplay. That’s like someone using the golden gun in a James Bond game then complaining it kills in one hit, yet continuing to use it. So instead of you solving your problem yourself by no longer using the golden gun, you’re demanding that everyone else in the community must now give up powers and abilities because YOU have decided the game is too easy. Talk about entitlement mentality and trolling. If you’re going to keep using powers you think are a problem, you need to quit complaining because you are the direct cause and solution to your own problem.

As to being around since the start of the game, quite frankly I don’t believe you. If you were really there as you claim, then you wouldn’t be making some of the ridiculous and factually incorrect statements you’ve made.

Quote: Originally Posted by Toraak View Post
You should never have problems with world quests. I wear gear every time I level with nothing in the shells, except for my MH/OH which I keep upgraded with green barrels/mods/enhancements from the vendor.

Nothing else is needed to faceroll all planetary quests, and class missions.
World quests shouldn’t be so hard that blinking at the wrong times gets you killed, unless of course that’s how someone wants to play it. It should however at least require you to be conscious at the keyboard and aware of what you’re doing. Otherwise I agree with you.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
Stop with this condescending ********, I've been playing this game as long as you have, and I main Vengeance Juggernaut. This is not my personal problem, this is a biological limitation. The studies show that an average targetted reaction time (which is where you consider what you click, and when, and it doesn't matter if its a keybind, or an icon you click with your mouse) is 450 ms. In the current PvE meta and stats distribution, the GCD for DPS is 400 ms. That means that an average human being is going to struggle with basic rotation, never mind keeping track of dots, resource management, buff management, debuff management, positioning, and DCDs.
You should take your own advice about being condescending. You are the one who came in here originally trying to play the “but what about the disabled people” card as though it has any merit on what’s being discussed or somehow rebuts anything I’ve said. “What about the disabled people” is not a valid argument or rebuttal in this instance. Next, if you’re going to cite studies, link them here, otherwise it’s little more than anecdotal evidence at best. Since you want to talk about studies, here’s one that says the average reaction time is 273 milliseconds which is far far below your 450 ms. https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
That’s just one of several studies I found with a simple internet search. Here is a second study for you here: https://raiseyourskillz.com/do-older...reaction-time/
They noted that the average reaction time of a human to visual stimulus is 200ms and the fastest responses every recorded were 100-120ms. The second study I’ve given you also links to other studies that back these conclusions. All in all you should have between these 2 links access to about 5 different studies that simply do not back your conclusions.

99% of the players in this game do not have a disability and don’t have the biological inhibition that you do. They play this game and others daily without having the issues that you do. In my original post and video I gave here, not only did I not have the issues you’re pointing out, I was calling out the names of the abilities as I was pressing them. When I stopped calling out the abilities I was able to engage them far faster still. The problem in this instance isn’t the game, the problem is on your end. Sometimes having a disability means you can’t react as fast as other people, or do some of the things other people can do. That doesn’t make you less than, it’s simply a limitation you’re forced to acknowledge. I’m all for them implementing accessibility features to let folks at least get their foot in the door and play the game, but not at the cost of changing core gameplay elements or giving someone an unfair advantage.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
This isn't a theory. It isn't something that you can just shrug off with "Well, you can learn that if you want to". It is an actual, existing, measurable, scientifically proven biological limitation. That's why the difference between an average parse and top parse is in thousands of DPS. That's why most people cannot achieve the same results on live bosses as they can on dummies. And it's the reason why most people will never touch content above Story OPS, because if you actually look up those guides, and the likes, all of them will tell you that an absolute minimum expected of a DPS toon is using a 0.4 GDC on a offensive ability, and doing so every time the cooldown ends. Doing just that, and nothing else, is the limit of what an average person can do.
See above. Your disability doesn’t entitle you to special privileges. As I said before, I’m all for them implementing basic accessibility features so folks can still play, but not at the cost of changing core gameplay elements for everyone else, or giving someone an unfair advantage. What you’re asking them to do is alter the core gameplay for the entire community because you personally are having a hard time. Why should they alter the game when 99% of the playerbase doesn’t have your problem? Your problem is you’re assuming that the average person is just like you and they’re not. You are not the average person as you have a disability that most people simply don’t. That doesn’t make you less than anyone else, it simply means you are going to have to work harder to achieve the same results.
Next your premise on why folks achieve better results on dummies vs ops bosses is completely incorrect and ignores the differences between those 2 measurements.

A test dummy is an example of what people can expect under the ideal conditions if they’re always able to keep damage up on the target. Dummies don’t have mechanics that require you to move or that can disrupt your dps rotation, ops and op bosses do. Ops have mechanics that require you to move around, to switch targets, to dodge certain abilities, that can incapacitate you for a time, require you to hit certain targets, that lower the amount of damage the boss takes from you, and so on. All of those mechanics are going to distort the numbers and are why the damage you do to a dummy is different than the damage you do in an op group. The dummy is a theoretical amount you can do under ideal conditions, the damage you do in an op group is what you do in practice.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
And I'm saying that making some of the now necessary abilities completely gone is good for the community in the long run. You've the most popular large media franchise in the world tied to a system that is, frankly, obsolete, and incredibly hard for new people to absorb.
Good for you maybe but not good for the community. We’ve shown several examples of how this has negatively impacted other games, or even shut them down completely. As I’ve said several times, you can lower the skill bar to the floor of the basement level of hell itself and there would STILL be people that couldn’t do it short of giving them an “I win” button. Next your entire line of logic never answers why those new people are having issues. Could there be better tooltips? Did the person use a datacron and skip straight to 70 thus getting the entire toolkit dropped on them at once? Is this class the right fit for this particular person? It just jumps to “I can’t do it, therefore no one can do it, so the game needs to be made easier for me.” Sorry dude but you’re not that important. My previous point also still stands, if a new person wants to learn this game, there are tons of guides, videos, and people who can help. If they choose not to seek help and continue to struggle as a result, that’s their own fault and not my problem. New players in this game are only as helpless as they choose to be.

Kurj's Avatar


Kurj
07.25.2021 , 04:49 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
This is easily accomplished by restricting the more powerful abilities from use in PVP and can be done without needing to steal them from folks on the PVE side of things. Except we both know that’s not how they’re going to do it. It’s going to be a blanket approach that screws the PVE side over for the sake of PVP.
I miss the days of separate PVP gear, and separate PVP balancing would be awesome. But I agree, it's not going to happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
But we do actually, the PTS showed half of the Guardian toolkit being removed. That’s a nerf of massive proportions to both sides of the game. Folks shouldn’t be dying in one hit in PVP unless they’re getting mobbed by half of the map, but they shouldn’t be nigh invincible on their own either. So where do you stick the balance point? This is why they need to separate PVP and PVE like World of Warcraft did. They’ve more than made clear what they did to Guardians on the PTS they intended to do to all other classes. So that is in fact information to show they intend to gut all other classes. Some will probably be worse off than others, but again it’s still a massive nerf and theft of abilities for no valid reason. If you want to hold the position we don’t have enough info, you’re entitled to that opinion. However for the purposes of the feedback they asked for, they asked for it based on what we had at that moment, which means the “wait and see” approach doesn’t apply in this instance.
The italicized text is more the point I was trying to make. We don't know how the game is going to be balanced when they're done, so I don't see how we can predict that skanks will increase post-7.0.

And I'm not telling people not to give their opinions. I'm giving mine, and I like reading what everyone has to say. Hopefully BW is reading and it's helpful to them. I'm just saying, as of now, none of us "know" how this is going to turn out. That's why I'm waiting and seeing, even as I'm giving my opinion.
Begeren Colony

Elmendra | Ozeranski | Tr'sain | Kurj

JCDenton's Avatar


JCDenton
07.26.2021 , 10:39 AM | #124
You're at a restaurant. You order food. The waiter climbs onto the table, drops his pants, and squats over a plate. "Hey, why are you pooping on my plate!?" demands the reasonable person. "How do you know it's poop, smart guy, it isn't even out yet!" responds several in this thread.

I just don't know how many PTS, betas, early access phases, etc. people need to see before they understand what's going to happen, and what isn't. Pattern recognition is meant to be a pretty big part of the human brain, but it seems to be malfunctioning, or missing entirely in so many here. Yes, "it isn't finished", and yes, it doesn't need to be in order to make reasonable extrapolation and judgement based on what we have. If you seriously believe they are going to make sweeping, foundational changes to their direction, I don't know what to do for you.

LJ_Gibbs's Avatar


LJ_Gibbs
07.26.2021 , 11:19 AM | #125
^^^ This.

Nothing we do or say will change ANYTHING.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
Yesterday , 01:09 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
You’re making several very large opinion based and unprovable assumptions here. If a particular mob or boss is immune to slows, the argument doesn’t apply in the first place, so why bring that up when it’s a nonpoint that has nothing to do with the previous conversation? There are plenty of mobs and even bosses that can be slowed, too many for me to list every single one of them here. If a mob needs to be kited or the goal is to kite the mob, all I care about is if the person can actually kite the mob. In my guild if we need to kite a mob, sometimes that role falls to one of our melee guys who is a Guardian/Jugg, because the guy is a veteran player that knows what to do and how to kite mobs. You can argue it would be more efficient if we used one of the ranged guys as that would be a fair and legitimate argument. However simply because it’s not “optimal” doesn’t preclude the possibility of a Guardian/Jugg kiting a mob.

Also I find it telling that you seem to think people choosing to play differently than you do must automatically mean they’re a troll. Folks employing abilities differently than you, or using different strategy than you doesn’t make one a troll, especially if both strategies actually work. The fact you would even trying to bring that point up stinks of gatekeeping and is nothing but a modern spin on the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
I'm not gatekeeping anything and I accept maybe I was a bit dismissive. Still I honestly can't think of a single enemy in this game that'd make sense to kite on Juggernaut. It seems incredibly silly to me, but to each their own I guess.
Quote:
Actions speak louder than words. They can say what they want all day long, but their actions are what matter. If they say one thing but do another, then it doesn’t matter what they said because that’s not what happened. They say they want us to use a wider variety of toolkit, yet are massively shrinking the toolkit. They say they want to give us more choice, yet are stealing choices from us. They say they want choices to be more meaningful for our story, yet are restricting the choices and abilities we get to use on our characters. No matter how you slice it, that is factually less substance. You disliking it doesn’t make it any less true.
This is completely unreasonable. This is a test patch, that they've made very clear isn't near ready to be shipped. If they put something on test server, and make it clear that a certain aspect (the choices) aren't ready for testing yet, so we'll be provided some basic loadouts for testing purposes, saying that choice is limited by the loadouts is a silly critique. It's something that isn't what they're proposing to change.
Quote:
I don’t know where the communication breakdown has occurred but there’s definitely one somewhere. My issue has never been about the range as you’re trying to make it out to be. My issue is that this change isn’t adding anything new, it’s simply shifting the source of the slow from one place to another while stealing control over it proccing from me. By tying it to a rotational ability it’s been made so you either skip that ability, or you waste our slow. As to why they made it 10m instead of sticking with 8m, they had to make a choice. Do they do a special bit of coding to keep the slow at 8m, do they reduce Blade Storm to 8m, or do they just call it 10m and a day? Going with the 10m allows them to pretend they’ve done this massive upgrade with the ability when they haven’t. You’re still not exceeding the original specs of Blade Storm, and all you’re doing is stealing control from people by shifting the source of the slow. If you want to call it an “upgrade” congratulations you’ve found a technicality to cling to without addressing the other issues. Doing something new would be combining those 2 powers, and giving us a single target slow. If they combined the abilities together AND upped the range to say 20m or even the 30m at the same time, that would be something new, even if overpowered beyond belief. Yet by the overhyping they’re doing for the Blade Storm adjustment, you would think they actually did make it baseline 30m, but they didn’t. All they’ve done is potentially combine the two powers and steal my control over when the slow actually goes off. It’s no different than if World of Warcraft suddenly recombined interrupts into the abilities they were previously. It’s not an upgrade, but a massive downgrade and a token gesture.
You did manage to bring up the range "complaint" twice in your video and in your original post. Going so far as to call it a dead ability when outside of range, while neglecting to notice that Freezing Force has the exact same issue.
Quote:
See above, the range was not my complaint but was used to illustrate how it’s not the upgrade they make it out to be. Otherwise saying “these other classes are losing abilities as well” doesn’t make it better and actually proves my original point they’re just wanting to nerf everyone for no valid reason. “Those guys lost abilities as well” isn’t an argument and actually makes things worse.
It is a fine argument as far as balance is concerned. If all class will have their toolkits limited by having to choose between some of their current abilities, it makes no sense to raise balance concerns with them facing classes as they are now.

arunav's Avatar


arunav
Yesterday , 03:43 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I'm not gatekeeping anything and I accept maybe I was a bit dismissive. Still I honestly can't think of a single enemy in this game that'd make sense to kite on Juggernaut. It seems incredibly silly to me, but to each their own I guess.
When pulling certain Commanders, those that drop flagship encryptions, a Guardian/Jugg tank will often "kite" it to a certain location, where the rest of the Ops group is.

This is also true of trash mobs in FPs and Ops, some bosses in those content types, and for trash mobs in Vet/MM Chapter content.

It is done with Saber Throw, and sometimes the Blade Blitz movement ability.

On an entirely different topic, I think this thread has devolved into something entirely unhelpful to BW. Valid concerns about classes and combat made in it likely won't be passed on, because of the nature of the back and forth going on.
"In the end, cowards are those that follow the dark side."

captainbladejk's Avatar


captainbladejk
Today , 04:00 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I'm not gatekeeping anything and I accept maybe I was a bit dismissive. Still I honestly can't think of a single enemy in this game that'd make sense to kite on Juggernaut. It seems incredibly silly to me, but to each their own I guess.
Arunav gave you some examples of times a Juggernaut can kite, and he described almost exactly to the t how our Jugg does it in my guild. Is it as efficient as a ranged, no probably not, but it gets the job done. Removing these powers the way they are denies us the ability to do what works for our group.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
This is completely unreasonable. This is a test patch, that they've made very clear isn't near ready to be shipped. If they put something on test server, and make it clear that a certain aspect (the choices) aren't ready for testing yet, so we'll be provided some basic loadouts for testing purposes, saying that choice is limited by the loadouts is a silly critique. It's something that isn't what they're proposing to change.
I would refer you to JcDenton’s restaurant example above me: You’re at a restaurant. You order food. The waiter climbs onto the table, drops his pants, squats over a plate. “Hey why are you pooping on my plate!?” demands the reasonable person. “How do you know it’s poop smart guy, it isn’t even out yet.”

Or a different example. I’m sitting at a bar minding my own business. Some random dude walks in and pulls a knife before stabbing the dude next to me. Guy then raises the knife to me or another person. Do I really need to “wait and see” if dude is actually going to stab me and every other person in the bar, or do I tackle him and get the knife away from him?

They’ve told you that they’re taking abilities away from people and there will be less abilities, which will mean less choice. They’ve told you what they wanted to do with the Guardian is the same thing they want to do with all the classes. Their implementation has shown you there will be less choice. Short of seeing the future on a crystal ball, what more could you possibly need to see this is a negative thing for the game? They’ve said there would be less abilities and there are. So what do you expect me to believe, people saying “wait and see” or what I’m actually seeing?

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
You did manage to bring up the range "complaint" twice in your video and in your original post. Going so far as to call it a dead ability when outside of range, while neglecting to notice that Freezing Force has the exact same issue.
THAT’S THE ENTIRE POINT dude. They’re not adding anything new. All they’re doing is combining the Blade Storm and Freezing Force into one power with the new “upgrade” inheriting the strengths and weaknesses of the 2 separate abilities, which includes this limitation in range. All you’ve done is shift the source of the slow from one place to another. It’s not a new power, yet people are eating this stuff up like it’s something new and falling for the sleight of hand trick.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
It is a fine argument as far as balance is concerned. If all class will have their toolkits limited by having to choose between some of their current abilities, it makes no sense to raise balance concerns with them facing classes as they are now.
What do you not get about THEY ASKED FOR THIS feedback based on what we had? They knew full well we wouldn’t have every single bit of information, but asked for the feedback regardless and that’s what they’ve gotten. You want to think my arguments are flawed, then debate the arguments, explain why you think they’re flawed and don’t work. I will explain why they do. That’s how debate works. If during the course of our debates a compelling argument is presented, then I will change my stance. So far that hasn’t happened. I want to hope this is all just us jumping the gun, but everything so far says it’s not.

With that said, do you have any other objections to any point I have raised, or do you want to keep going in circles? If you have legitimate objections by all means lets hear them, otherwise I’m getting off this merry go round.