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The problem with Endgame gear farming no one is talking about


AJNatalo

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Greetings,

 

I just wanted to lay out the case for what I see as the biggest problem with the end game gearing system that is going largely ignored. Its one I experienced as an old player returning after about a hiatus since the 6.0 came out and I ran through the story on that. The problem is the current system basically makes false promises about different gearing paths. Let me explain.

 

All of the statements from the dev team talked about item rating would no longer be tied to gear quality and that it would open branches for gearing to fit multiple play styles. The progression from 320 to 326 could be done according to your own play style. basically all content would drop gear you could use and even guaranteed upgrades after some farming. That was the promise, it is incredibly unfulfilled.

 

Master Mode flashpoints I believe illustrate the problem best. This content is relatively easy to que for. Importantly, it REWARDS 320 gear. To someone coming back to the game seeing that in fact you can get 320 blue from MM flashpoints, it implies that the content is designed to allow that. Surely the devs wouldn't provide rewards in content but then balance that content around people for whom those rewards are meaningless? But they did exactly that. You see, MM flashpoints are basically balanced around already being at 326, with augments. Nothing in the system as its designed would clue the player into that. The player would only learn that when they start getting their actual s**t wrecked in the flashpoint. Or as happened to me, I qued in, immediately upon entering the flashpoint someone starts yelling at the group to kick for being under geared. Instead of telling me (i asked) "hey, here is what you need to actually run this content," they went and pulled every group of trash they could to wipe the group and then left the flashpoint. After getting to play the content eventually, I can see why the person was concerned. Even though my later group got a clear, it was a tough road. Should it have been handled with some better communication, absolutely. Would that situation ever have happened if the devs had balanced the reward system around the actual difficulty of the content. No, it wouldn't have. The only way I have found to see my mistake, was to find random guides on youtube. If the devs make it so youtube is communicating their vision better than they are, its a major problem. Adjusting currency rewards doesn't fix this. The fact is, the current system is built in a way that literally sets players up for failure.

 

In a time when I gamed BHC (before having children, a time in shadow of revan when i healed in raids and was obtaining BiS gear as it dropped) i would have simply put in the time to grind out the gear and been done with it. But now you have to look at a guide before you play to even see if what you are doing can be done or is worth while to do because there are zero clues in game. Its a bad system and one that sets people up for failure. There are a lot of people who will likely just completely ignore the end game and once the story is complete a couple times to cover different variations, like I intend to do from now on.

Edited by AJNatalo
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I don't know if "no one" is talking about it but, if I understand what you're staying correctly, I also saw people confused by the way FP gear drops work.

 

Solo players are used to being able to farm Flashpoints like Hammer Station and get increasing upgrades for their gear, but now you might barely ever get upgrades if you didn't enter through groupfinder + get the FP weekly mission with the crate reward.

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This seems be how a lot of games are these days. Very little info in-game about how to progress. It's assumed that everyone can just google what to do. Developers have just started relying on the community making guides about everything. As long as players can google an answer, the developers don't care. It's similar to how online patching made developers and publishers lazier about fixing bugs. Since they can just release patches after launch, they don't care much that there's bugs in the supposedly "finished" product.
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I don't know if "no one" is talking about it but, if I understand what you're staying correctly, I also saw people confused by the way FP gear drops work.

 

Solo players are used to being able to farm Flashpoints like Hammer Station and get increasing upgrades for their gear, but now you might barely ever get upgrades if you didn't enter through groupfinder + get the FP weekly mission with the crate reward.

 

That is certainly one issue that is encompassed in what I am talking about. To me, the bigger issue is the fact that by there is no way to know what proper gearing looks like for doing content before either 1. getting your face smashed in, or 2. finding a guide. Flashpoints to me are just the best example of this and they also provide the best illustration of what you brought up (maybe flashpoints are being designed to be bad in group? Just do the story and get to raiding?) To me the big problem is the set up for failure. Hypothetical person gets their 320 green gear and sees they can run flashpoints and start farming blue gear because it will drop all blue gear at 320 and they can farm the upgrades. Our hypothetical person loves flashpoint content, shorter than raiding but not endless cycle of PVP, and its in a group so not lonely like conquest. However, this person comes to find out that at their current gearing they are woefully unprepared to get blue gear from FP. In fact, the person realizes that even if they already had the gear that would DROP from the FP, they still can't run the FP. To me, no game should be developed to where the reward from content is in and of itself not powerful enough to run the content. Think about how absolutely regressive that system is. I don't understand how something like that comes into the game without it being intentional.

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This seems be how a lot of games are these days. Very little info in-game about how to progress. It's assumed that everyone can just google what to do. Developers have just started relying on the community making guides about everything. As long as players can google an answer, the developers don't care. It's similar to how online patching made developers and publishers lazier about fixing bugs. Since they can just release patches after launch, they don't care much that there's bugs in the supposedly "finished" product.

 

Forums should add an agree button so I can say as much. This is the truth.

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To me, no game should be developed to where the reward from content is in and of itself not powerful enough to run the content. Think about how absolutely regressive that system is. I don't understand how something like that comes into the game without it being intentional.

 

This whole post is well constructed, but this in particular is really well put and has a unique clarity. For some reason, Bioware doesn't think wanting to do certain content is enough reason to allow us to do said content. It's like we have to prove we're *really* committed to the game first, before we'll be allowed to do the parts we find fun. I've had less problematic exes.

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This whole post is well constructed, but this in particular is really well put and has a unique clarity. For some reason, Bioware doesn't think wanting to do certain content is enough reason to allow us to do said content. It's like we have to prove we're *really* committed to the game first, before we'll be allowed to do the parts we find fun. I've had less problematic exes.

 

Agree.

Also the exes part made me laugh.

Thanks for that.

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Greetings,

 

I just wanted to lay out the case for what I see as the biggest problem with the end game gearing system that is going largely ignored. Its one I experienced as an old player returning after about a hiatus since the 6.0 came out and I ran through the story on that. The problem is the current system basically makes false promises about different gearing paths. Let me explain.

 

All of the statements from the dev team talked about item rating would no longer be tied to gear quality and that it would open branches for gearing to fit multiple play styles. The progression from 320 to 326 could be done according to your own play style. basically all content would drop gear you could use and even guaranteed upgrades after some farming. That was the promise, it is incredibly unfulfilled.

 

Master Mode flashpoints I believe illustrate the problem best. This content is relatively easy to que for. Importantly, it REWARDS 320 gear. To someone coming back to the game seeing that in fact you can get 320 blue from MM flashpoints, it implies that the content is designed to allow that. Surely the devs wouldn't provide rewards in content but then balance that content around people for whom those rewards are meaningless? But they did exactly that. You see, MM flashpoints are basically balanced around already being at 326, with augments. Nothing in the system as its designed would clue the player into that. The player would only learn that when they start getting their actual s**t wrecked in the flashpoint. Or as happened to me, I qued in, immediately upon entering the flashpoint someone starts yelling at the group to kick for being under geared. Instead of telling me (i asked) "hey, here is what you need to actually run this content," they went and pulled every group of trash they could to wipe the group and then left the flashpoint. After getting to play the content eventually, I can see why the person was concerned. Even though my later group got a clear, it was a tough road. Should it have been handled with some better communication, absolutely. Would that situation ever have happened if the devs had balanced the reward system around the actual difficulty of the content. No, it wouldn't have. The only way I have found to see my mistake, was to find random guides on youtube. If the devs make it so youtube is communicating their vision better than they are, its a major problem. Adjusting currency rewards doesn't fix this. The fact is, the current system is built in a way that literally sets players up for failure.

 

In a time when I gamed BHC (before having children, a time in shadow of revan when i healed in raids and was obtaining BiS gear as it dropped) i would have simply put in the time to grind out the gear and been done with it. But now you have to look at a guide before you play to even see if what you are doing can be done or is worth while to do because there are zero clues in game. Its a bad system and one that sets people up for failure. There are a lot of people who will likely just completely ignore the end game and once the story is complete a couple times to cover different variations, like I intend to do from now on.

 

I did some MM fps when 7.0 was launched, but I found out really soon it's the most expensive and most time consuming way to go: yet it will only get you as high as 326. Now when I am past 326 iRating, I have no reason to do flashpoints anymore, because all that time would be wasted from gearing up my alts and getting mats for rakata upgrades. Not only that, but a lot of people still believe MM fps are the way to gear up, so they queue with bad gear without augments. Those FPs are bound to fail if the skill level in the group is below average on top of the bad gear they have: time gets wasted and you get nothing out of it. BW has also in their great wisdomness decided that if you end up into a group with 318-320iR unaugmented people and you quit because you can see from the first trash pull how badly it's going to fail, you will be locked out from q'ing again on that same character. It's especially fun when you waited to get a pop for 30 mins in the first place.

 

Meanwhile playing pvp and gsf will get you decent 326 gear in no time. You need gear for pvp, that's true, but beats me why GSF gives the cheapest way to gear up. Cheapest = the cost to upgrade to purple 326.

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Another example of this same thing is that I constantly see people advertising for nightmare operations in general chat on the fleet, but I have no idea what my lower rating gear is capable of, so I'm always torn between feeling like I need to do those groups to gear up and feeling like I will just die and/or get booted if I try to join those groups.
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  • 2 weeks later...
That is certainly one issue that is encompassed in what I am talking about. To me, the bigger issue is the fact that by there is no way to know what proper gearing looks like for doing content before either 1. getting your face smashed in, or 2. finding a guide. Flashpoints to me are just the best example of this and they also provide the best illustration of what you brought up (maybe flashpoints are being designed to be bad in group? Just do the story and get to raiding?) To me the big problem is the set up for failure. Hypothetical person gets their 320 green gear and sees they can run flashpoints and start farming blue gear because it will drop all blue gear at 320 and they can farm the upgrades. Our hypothetical person loves flashpoint content, shorter than raiding but not endless cycle of PVP, and its in a group so not lonely like conquest. However, this person comes to find out that at their current gearing they are woefully unprepared to get blue gear from FP. In fact, the person realizes that even if they already had the gear that would DROP from the FP, they still can't run the FP. To me, no game should be developed to where the reward from content is in and of itself not powerful enough to run the content. Think about how absolutely regressive that system is. I don't understand how something like that comes into the game without it being intentional.

 

 

As a returning player, I couldn't agree more. Once I finally started looking into the gearing changes, I was appalled at what they had done. It seems as if Bioware is forcing players to play the game how they think we should play. Not to mention taking away the moddable gear for endgame. I'm embarrassed to say that I've been subbed this whole time that I haven't been playing bc I expected to come back to an even better game but this xpack has taken a turn for the worse in terms of gearing. I'm probably pulling my sub if they don't overhaul the gearing system.

 

Edit: And not to mention all the different currencies needed to upgrade the different types of gear based on the content that you're doing. I had to go to 3rd party guides and YouTube videos to make sense of it. W T F!

Edited by XiPsiDawg
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Another example of this same thing is that I constantly see people advertising for nightmare operations in general chat on the fleet, but I have no idea what my lower rating gear is capable of, so I'm always torn between feeling like I need to do those groups to gear up and feeling like I will just die and/or get booted if I try to join those groups.

 

If you know your class well I have seen people 320-326 gear pulling 15-20 DPS. You can easily pull off the required DPS for NIM in full 326 pvp gear with purple 74 augments if you streamline your rotations. My suggestion is download something like Starparse and test your rotations to see how efficient you are.

Edited by illgot
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Edit: And not to mention all the different currencies needed to upgrade the different types of gear based on the content that you're doing. I had to go to 3rd party guides and YouTube videos to make sense of it. W T F!

 

The complexity of it all really isn't working in the game's favor. Especially not when there are four to five different types of gear that all upgrade with a different currency and may or may not upgrade to purple quality along the way (PvP vs. conquest). There isn't anything wrong per se with the idea that harder content rewards higher gear, but I've never seen it done it quite such a convoluted and messy way as 7.0.

 

There would be much easier ways to keep MM operation gear at 328 and 330 without splitting up the existing PvP, conquest and flashpoint gear into so many different tiers. And especially to make it possible to "cross-upgrade."

 

It's overall just one of the messiest implementations of "harder content rewards better gear" that I've seen in an MMO to date, and it is simply unnecessarily bloated for the average player.

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If you know your class well I have seen people 320-326 gear pulling 15-20 DPS. You can easily pull off the required DPS for NIM in full 326 pvp gear with purple 74 augments if you streamline your rotations. My suggestion is download something like Starparse and test your rotations to see how efficient you are.

 

While this is absolutely true, I think OP was making the point that there's a huge disconnect between obtaining and using gear.

 

First, let's start with conquest/daily gear, which is actually probably one of the few areas where gear drops are just fine. Conquest gives you up to 326 greens, no better. That's fine: it's (mostly) easy content (some buggy areas aside if solo).

 

Using that as a baseline, we move to flashpoints. First, you have SM flashpoints, which don't drop gear at all. I get that it's easy content (it really is), but it's also on par (roughly) with conquest, so a reasonable approach would be for it to give the same ger as conquest...instead: nothing. Vet flashpoints become the baseline for group content, giving up to 324 greens. In a vacuum (i.e. ignoring the rest of the game), this would be fine. However, by and large this is still roughly on par with SM flashpoints and conquest in difficulty, and as such should reasonably give the same gear. If Conquest gives 326 greens, so should vet FPs. Next, you get to MM FPs: they give up to 326 blues. Step up in difficulty, step up in gear: check. Problem here is erratic tuning. Queue for a MM, and you could get Hammer Station, which shouldn't get any more than 326 blues for the difficulty (and arguably might not deserve better than 326 greens b/c it's not really any more difficult than vet FPs)...or you could get something like Nathema Conspiracy or Battle of Rishi where the content appears to be designed around a group in 326 purples...or you could get something like Assault on Korriban or Ruins of Nul where tuning issues and/or bugs make the content literally impossible to complete without a group in full 330 NiM gear. Those latter two are an issue when the 'reward' is only 326 blues, at best.

 

Next, let's look at Ops. First off, SM ops are about on par with (perhaps slightly more involved then) vet FPs or some MM FPs, yet they only give 322 green gear. That's a problem. Next, HM ops are tuned a step higher than that, easily more involved than any base-game MM FP, yet give 324 blue gear as their upper end. Again, a problem. NiM ops give gear, but are currently tuned in such a way that there are likely less than 50 players on the entirety of the Satele Shan server actually completing the content. Instead, it's borked in such a way that most groups do the first boss of ONE operation (NiM Nefra), or two when one had a workaround to avoid mechanics (NiM Dashrode). That's an obvious over-tuning issue.

 

Lastly, let's get to PvP. If all things are equal, then perhaps the goal was just to make gearing harder, right? Except in GSF, I can go in and lose my way to 326 purples (and since the latest patch, and do so in warzones as well, albeit at a slower pace than GSF).

 

Basically, as things are, there is one viable path to gear in this game: PvP to 326, then NiM Nefra to 330. Add to that the RNG and lack of modifiable gear (which didn't stop optimization, it just changed it so you choose which class you farm a gear drop as to get the stats optimized), and it's a massive step in the wrong direction.

 

I hope this gets fixed in 7.1....if Bioware ever gets around to releasing 7.1.

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As a returning player, I couldn't agree more. Once I finally started looking into the gearing changes, I was appalled at what they had done. It seems as if Bioware is forcing players to play the game how they think we should play. !

 

For those of us who've been here since before 5.0 days; I can say with confidence that they've been doing just that for years. They keep trying to push players to certain kinds of content (usually PVP and OPs), with mixed results.

 

The "best" solution to the gearing problem? As far as I'm concerned, we should all simply ignore it. When metrics show that (once again!) metric show that "it isn't working"; we'll get another repeat where gear becomes attainable through multiple paths.

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MMFPs were my primary game mode for a long time. I play Tank and Healer. Bioware's overtuning of MMFPs have ruined MMFPs unless you are in a guild group on Comms. There are some you can clear in green 320, but it is very limited. Those that attempt to do the random weekly are, in my opinion, looking for trouble. I recently unsubbed and am planning to go back to other MMOs as there isn't any endgame content I enjoy. MMFPs are in such a bad spot that some of the guilds I am in are using them as training grounds for NiM Ops. I hope Bioware fixes this content, but I don't expect they will. The primary failing of SWTOR, in my opinion, is average (normal?) difficulty role-specific content. Without MMFPs, you are left with Ops. I don't have interest in the slog of Ops. Personally, I think the 7.0 expansion should be titled "Raid or quit". On to better things I hope. Wish everyone the best.
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For those of us who've been here since before 5.0 days; I can say with confidence that they've been doing just that for years. They keep trying to push players to certain kinds of content (usually PVP and OPs), with mixed results.

 

The "best" solution to the gearing problem? As far as I'm concerned, we should all simply ignore it. When metrics show that (once again!) metric show that "it isn't working"; we'll get another repeat where gear becomes attainable through multiple paths.

 

Gotta say I agree with this.

For years it feels like they are trying to push me towards content I have no interest in.

Story hidden behind OPs and grindy FPs.

PvP?

No thanks.

I'll stick with the gear I have.

No more grinding.

No more.

Edited by Rammboo
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I was max geared before the expansion. Started the grind to get to 326 but lost interest in the game for a while, so I haven’t been around for a couple of months. I just logged back in with my top geared toon, who is at 324, and it seems progression has changed, currencies have changed, and it looks like I’m going to have to do a bunch of homework to figure out what I do to get back on track now. The sticky articles aren’t even accurate anymore because of the changes they made post 7.0. That is incredibly disheartening. When gear progression is this overly complicated, it just completely turns players off of they take any sort of break. I get the need to keep the gear grind going. But you can do that without making fundamental shifts such that gear progression is so unintuitive that you need to read long forum posts or join a guild and have someone explain it to you throughly to make progress. Why does it have to be so hard? It shouldn’t be. Gear upgrades should drop from killing enemies and completing content. That has worked for RPGs since they were invented. Why do we need 900 different currencies and different ways to earn gear that have no crossover? It is just so overcomplicated that I am likely to just quit again rather than figure out where to get FP-1 Stabilizer and daily resource matrix. I mean, they changed the names of all the currency just to make it more damn confusing. The people making the decisions on this stuff have lost all touch with what people want from a game like this. I don’t want to have to spend a bunch of time reading up on the forums about how to get better gear. I want to play the damn game and feel rewarded for the effort I put in with occasional upgrades without needing to track half a dozen different gear upgrade currencies. This is ridiculous. Edited by SoonerJBD
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It is just so overcomplicated that I am likely to just quit again rather than figure out where to get FP-1 Stabilizer and daily resource matrix. I mean, they changed the names of all the currency just to make it more damn confusing.

 

Uhm, what? Mhm I have no idea where you could possibly get FP-1 Stabilizer, maybe in FPs but not sure, those WZ Mats, maybe you get them in Warzones. Daily recourse Matrix? Maybe in... OPs? Oh no wait, it's dailies.

 

Come on bro, they renamed them to make it easier

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Not to mention taking away the moddable gear for endgame.

 

This wouldn't be too bad if the gear that we got already gave us BiS stats. Of course, since I have yet to gear up a single character this expansion, perhaps it now does? Or did they [REDACTED] that up too?

Edited by ForfiniteStories
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Uhm, what? Mhm I have no idea where you could possibly get FP-1 Stabilizer, maybe in FPs but not sure, those WZ Mats, maybe you get them in Warzones. Daily recourse Matrix? Maybe in... OPs? Oh no wait, it's dailies.

 

Come on bro, they renamed them to make it easier

 

The point is there is no need for six different gear currencies and different upgrade paths for each type of content. It is gratuitously over complicated, and newer players or those returning after a time away have no option but to be confused by it.

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Not confused.

They spread gearing mats across content I don't want to or will ever play

in the hope they can push me into it.

Been doing it for years now.

Isn't going to happen.

Nice try though.

Edited by Rammboo
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why do i have to farm heroics for op and fp gear?

 

why do i need about 3 times as many fp coins to upgrade fp gear as op or conquest gear need op or daily coins?

 

here's how to fix it... give every gear option a path to 330 purples. "o, well people running flashpoints don't need purple 330" is the dumbest design paradigm any game designer has ever come up with in the history of ever. here's a news flash, whichever moron came up with this system... GAMERS LIKE THE BEST GEAR AVAILABLE IN THE GAME! we do not appreciate having our gear selection decided for us because you guys are either too lazy or too stupid to come up with a system as good as 6.0's was.

 

literally every single person who plays the game liked 6.0's system better than any other system you've implemented, and you went and effed it up for no reason other than you hired some new guys who wanted to make their mark, regardless of how dumb it was.

 

well, good job. you put your new system in. what did it net you?

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why do i have to farm heroics for op and fp gear?

 

why do i need about 3 times as many fp coins to upgrade fp gear as op or conquest gear need op or daily coins?

 

here's how to fix it... give every gear option a path to 330 purples. "o, well people running flashpoints don't need purple 330" is the dumbest design paradigm any game designer has ever come up with in the history of ever. here's a news flash, whichever moron came up with this system... GAMERS LIKE THE BEST GEAR AVAILABLE IN THE GAME! we do not appreciate having our gear selection decided for us because you guys are either too lazy or too stupid to come up with a system as good as 6.0's was.

 

literally every single person who plays the game liked 6.0's system better than any other system you've implemented, and you went and effed it up for no reason other than you hired some new guys who wanted to make their mark, regardless of how dumb it was.

 

well, good job. you put your new system in. what did it net you?

 

Don't claim to speak for everyone. I hated the 6.0 gearing system with a passion. 7.0's system may not be perfect, but it's a lot better then what we had in 6.0.

 

I do wish we had access to mods/enhancements already, but other then that I have enjoyed 7.0's system a heck of a lot better. If I want specific stats for my characters, I know exactly what piece I need to get, and how to get it. There is no RNG in getting the exact item I need like 6.0. The RNG mess that was 6.0's system can burn in **** for all I care.

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