Not really interested in playing a game with a bunch of over active accountants who hyper analyze strangers just to tell them they aren't good enough for a EV SM.

Hold up, this was a SM EV? OP, anyone who cares about dps in a SM op deserves laughter and a legacy ignore. They are not worth your energy beyond an eyeroll (if that).

DPS does not matter in SM. NO reasonable person in swtor would rag on dps in a SM EV. The kind of person that feels the need to tear down some fresh 80 in fleet greens in an op like that needs assistance in a bad way.

I am sorry you've run into some jerks. That said, jerks exist everywhere, and swtor is no different. If they weren't harassing you over your dps, it would probably be something else. The existence of people who tear down others to prop up their own egos is nothing new. I very rarely run into "bean counters" in pug ops, and honestly? The loudest ones tend to be mediocre at best. There's an inverse correlation between how much time you spend typing in chat vs. hitting the boss.

Why let some over-ego'd randoms ruin your play experience?

Hold up, this was a SM EV? OP, anyone who cares about dps in a SM op deserves laughter and a legacy ignore. They are not worth your energy beyond an eyeroll (if that).

 

DPS does not matter in SM. NO reasonable person in swtor would rag on dps in a SM EV. The kind of person that feels the need to tear down some fresh 80 in fleet greens in an op like that needs assistance in a bad way.

While in cases it doesn't matter- I'm seen some pug groups enrage during Gharj and that was due to some dps pulling low numbers. The example I gave earlier was exactly that. The person yelling and pointing finger at others was pulling less than the tank in gear well above 320. So in this case, a toxic player who didn't know how to play their class- yelling at others.

And as a side note, the most toxic people I've come across have not been the accomplished members of the raiding community - it has been the ones still learning but not willing to have others learn as well.

While in cases it doesn't matter- I'm seen some pug groups enrage during Gharj and that was due to some dps pulling low numbers. The example I gave earlier was exactly that. The person yelling and pointing finger at others was pulling less than the tank in gear well above 320. So in this case, a toxic player who didn't know how to play their class- yelling at others.

 

And as a side note, the most toxic people I've come across have not been the accomplished members of the raiding community - it has been the ones still learning but not willing to have others learn as well.

Alright, I'll grant that it is possible to see enrage in SM, albeit (in my experience) rare, even in full groups of newbies. Perhaps instead of saying dps doesn't matter in SM, I could have said it's "generally inconsequential." My larger point was that whoever was demanding OP "had to" do 21k dps in a SM EV was clearly suffering from full-of-themselves-itis , much like the person in your own anecdote.

Alright, I'll grant that it is possible to see enrage in SM, albeit (in my experience) rare, even in full groups of newbies. Perhaps instead of saying dps doesn't matter in SM, I could have said it's "generally inconsequential." My larger point was that whoever was demanding OP "had to" do 21k dps in a SM EV was clearly suffering from full-of-themselves-itis , much like the person in your own anecdote.

I'd agree- looking at the parsely databoards for some classes that would be near the top of charts dps - certainly not expected for 320.

But I'd also say this behavior is not the norm at all. the bad experiences I've had with toxic players in pug SM operations has not been the case (nor HM for EV/KP)

I do wonder if some people join forming operations for HM/NiM content not realizing and then get upset at dps/gear requirements. I know I have formed pug ops on fleet stating the mode and then having someone respond back to find they a) had never done the operation b) weren't in correct gear for their spec. Now I've been good about letting them down gently but I'm sure there are those who have less patience.

Maybe this Starparse thing and crapping on people for 'low dps' etc, is why MM FP GF seems to take forever to pop these days. Too many people scared off?

On a related note, I was in an MM FP last night where the tank wasn't that great. He had trouble holding agro, and was generally inexperienced. But the FP was progressing, albeit a bit slowly, but progress.

Some doofus did a vote_kick and the tank left/got booted before I even voted. So of course, after a while of waiting around killing adds, the group broke up and never finished. Back to another 25 minutes queueing for another FP. Great! 🤔

Maybe this Starparse thing and crapping on people for 'low dps' etc, is why MM FP GF seems to take forever to pop these days. Too many people scared off?

 

On a related note, I was in an MM FP last night where the tank wasn't that great. He had trouble holding agro, and was generally inexperienced. But the FP was progressing, albeit a bit slowly, but progress.

Some doofus did a vote_kick and the tank left/got booted before I even voted. So of course, after a while of waiting around killing adds, the group broke up and never finished. Back to another 25 minutes queueing for another FP. Great! 🤔

Most of the harder MMFP got their difficulty crushed recently. There's maybe two left that a pug might fail to clear from lack of competence.

MMFP takes forever because it's almost worthless for endgame and requires a trinity group which means waiting for hours for the tank or sometimes a healer. The vast majority are dps so the vast majority wait.

Or you can sit in GSF which requires no class, no levels, no skill and get better gear and more endgame currency. You merely have to put up skill gaps that are far far larger than anything you'll see in a MMFP.

 

MMFP takes forever because it's almost worthless for endgame and requires a trinity group which means waiting for hours for the tank or sometimes a healer. The vast majority are dps so the vast majority wait.

 

Or you can sit in GSF which requires no class, no levels, no skill and get better gear and more endgame currency. You merely have to put up skill gaps that are far far larger than anything you'll see in a MMFP.

This is a good point. There is very little reason to do MM FPs at the moment. I feel like the only people who still do these are just the ones who enjoy FPs. There needs to be a much better pay off for the time investment for these.

This is a good point. There is very little reason to do MM FPs at the moment. I feel like the only people who still do these are just the ones who enjoy FPs. There needs to be a much better pay off for the time investment for these.

Agreed!

That would be helpful !!

(FP's in general ... actually)

[/two thumbs up]

LoL. Gear is now tied to OPs by resource drop, but yall kickin people who can't hit numbers straight out the gate of L80, no implants, and crap green 320 gear. "This is a good thing" Right.

 

I never wanted to be "elite". I wanted to play casual. This isn't a job for me and I don't want to listen to people tell me I'm doing 16K and need to be at least 21K when I'm sitting on 321 gear....yeah. Not helping.

It’s called gear progression. You work your way up to the highest gear. You don’t just join a HM or NM op in green 320 gear and expect to be carried.

This is a good point. There is very little reason to do MM FPs at the moment. I feel like the only people who still do these are just the ones who enjoy FPs. There needs to be a much better pay off for the time investment for these.

I would do more MM FPs, but it takes way too long to get a pop as a dps. Tanking them is not an option for me, because it will just make me angry. Everyone is a "tank" now after 6.0. They don't queue as a tank, but they sure are fast to pull before the real tank and make things ten times more difficult than needed. When group wipes they blame the tank or the healer. If you ask them nicely to let the tank pull, they get toxic.

My sanity can only deal with MM FPs as a dps, and at least then I'll know for sure we have at least one dps who let's the tank engage, pulls their own weight in boss fights, knows the mechanics and kill order, and walks loose mobs that are chewing up a newbie turret healer towards the tank to take the aggro and so on. But yeah, it never pops for a dps, so no MM flashpoints in this expansion.

It’s called gear progression. You work your way up to the highest gear. You don’t just join a HM or NM op in green 320 gear and expect to be carried.

As I said, it was EV SM. I think it's more eye opening for me that bean counting other players, is what people want.

That's the community today. We're not talking about NiM OPs or even HM. We're talking SM OPs and FP, this feature, that most of you here hail good and reason to kick ppl, is infecting the least DPS dependent parts of the game. Now casual has to be elitist, or get stuffed for it.

And the best comment you get from people like that is "Git Gud".

You should get over it.

A random nobody says something irrelevant in a EV SM and you never go in an operation again but spend more time than an operation takes on the forum saying how hurt you were?

That'll show that random nobody by... punishing yourself forever...

But you should ignore me and put more importance on what they said because they're super important.

As I said, it was EV SM. I think it's more eye opening for me that bean counting other players, is what people want.

 

That's the community today. We're not talking about NiM OPs or even HM. We're talking SM OPs and FP, this feature, that most of you here hail good and reason to kick ppl, is infecting the least DPS dependent parts of the game. Now casual has to be elitist, or get stuffed for it.

 

And the best comment you get from people like that is "Git Gud".

Again, I think you are speaking to the exception and not the norm. Esp if in green 320 you were pulling 15-17k. As a (soon to be former- 6 days remaining) member of the NiM community, I'd have been 100% fine with that.

You should get over it.

 

A random nobody says something irrelevant in a EV SM and you never go in an operation again but spend more time than an operation takes on the forum saying how hurt you were?

 

That'll show that random nobody by... punishing yourself forever...

 

But you should ignore me and put more importance on what they said because they're super important.

^This.

Ignoring a huge part of the game for the actions of 1 random is silly. If you want to try out operations- join one of the many guilds recruiting - some of the larger ones advertise looking for people to join/learn operations.

Ya know .. this is most entertaining!! And it pretty much proves what many of us already knew (or experienced) in the past (some from other games .. some here on SWTOR).

"Want better gear .. then get better and play the ('harder parts") ... or some variant of that statement.

"You don't need the better gear" is another one!!

"You WILL DO OPS ... etc" ... OH .. bring the good gear with you (in order to play) .... You know the good gear that you will get AFTER running OPS! :confused:

And yet in this discussion even those that DO OPS can't even agree!! And you expect the rest of us to "enjoy" the game while "engaged" in this ?? (I doubt some will see the humor ... the contradictions ... the rest of the baggage)

[/facepalm]

OH! I get it ... trust me! I'll probably catch crap from BOTH sides.

NO thank you. If we ever get past 7.0 and some of the better parts of the game are returned that would be nice. I personally don't think we will ever see it again. But it would be nice just the same!

Mean time ... ( fires up another batch of popcorn ) ... I'll just chill ! (and for the record .. I honestly don't care what anyone thinks about me personally).

And yet in this discussion even those that DO OPS can't even agree!! And you expect the rest of us to "enjoy" the game while "engaged" in this ?? (I doubt some will see the humor ... the contradictions ... the rest of the baggage)

 

[/facepalm]

 

OH! I get it ... trust me! I'll probably catch crap from BOTH sides.

)

Please find me one thing in this game that everyone agrees on. Hell, even on things like not enough new content coming there are those that say we get plenty for the low price of a monthly sub.

So I'm not at all surprised or expecting for all those who participate in operations to agree on anything. I even stated early on that there are pros/cons to the starparse numbers being shown, just in my opinion the good outweighs the bad.

"Want better gear .. then get better and play the ('harder parts") ... or some variant of that statement.

 

"You don't need the better gear" is another one!!

 

"You WILL DO OPS ... etc" ... OH .. bring the good gear with you (in order to play) .... You know the good gear that you will get AFTER running OPS!

 

Mean time ... ( fires up another batch of popcorn ) ... I'll just chill ! (and for the record .. I honestly don't care what anyone thinks about me personally).

Let me try to clarify it from my humble perspective:

You don't need NiM OPs gear to do MM Flashpoints or SM OPs, but you do need something better than '320'. 324+ would be ideal - 326 would be normal.

At 320/322 you do too little dps/heals/survivability for reliable results, but it does depend somewhat on experience, etc.

IF you want gear beyond 326 you need to do OPs. But you don't need gear beyond 326 to do anything other than NiM OPs and PvP. There is no "being forced" to do OPs.

So. I'm just chillin as well. I did my first Nefra the other day and got a 326 'purple' off-hand blaster. At first I thought that was a waste of time since I already had a 326 'blue' off-hand, but I've since discovered that I can upgrade that 326 (now 328) through the vendors on Fleet. 🙂

P.s. I honestly don't care what anyone thinks of you, either. 😂 😇

Ya know .. this is most entertaining!! And it pretty much proves what many of us already knew (or experienced) in the past (some from other games .. some here on SWTOR).

 

"Want better gear .. then get better and play the ('harder parts") ... or some variant of that statement.

 

"You don't need the better gear" is another one!!

 

"You WILL DO OPS ... etc" ... OH .. bring the good gear with you (in order to play) .... You know the good gear that you will get AFTER running OPS! :confused:

 

And yet in this discussion even those that DO OPS can't even agree!! And you expect the rest of us to "enjoy" the game while "engaged" in this ?? (I doubt some will see the humor ... the contradictions ... the rest of the baggage)

 

[/facepalm]

 

OH! I get it ... trust me! I'll probably catch crap from BOTH sides.

 

NO thank you. If we ever get past 7.0 and some of the better parts of the game are returned that would be nice. I personally don't think we will ever see it again. But it would be nice just the same!

 

Mean time ... ( fires up another batch of popcorn ) ... I'll just chill ! (and for the record .. I honestly don't care what anyone thinks about me personally).

Gear is not, was never and will never be the reason somebody does no DPS. Complaining about gear is insane when you could still improve yourself.

Same thing for NiM pugs, they usually require a clear to enter, but how are you going to clear it if you can't join? It's a commom complaint you'll get when making these pugs, the answer is: you progress your way through it, because if you haven't you will not even dare say you didn't get carried.

Same logic applying to gear, it takes WAAAAAY longer to gear via Nefra and EV HM then it does from completing NiM ops, but it's easier especially for people who need the gear. So you expect them to wipe to idk Trasher 5 weeks in a row because their only rakata drops are from Dash and Titan? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Not to mention gearing itself isn't even that much of a grind compared to the time spend clearing a NiM op in porgression teams, it's almost an insult calling this gear system grindy or hard - is it too complicated? Yes. But very certainly not to grindy.

Let me try to clarify it from my humble perspective:

 

IF you want gear beyond 326 you need to do OPs. But you don't need gear beyond 326 to do anything other than NiM OPs and PvP. There is no "being forced" to do OPs.

This is a giant problem for pvp. Some specs require certain break points. With current gearing the balance is out of wack. Essentially with current gear each spec needs its own gear for that spec.

The gearing system sucks period. PVP and pve need different gear plain and simple

This is a giant problem for pvp. Some specs require certain break points. With current gearing the balance is out of wack. Essentially with current gear each spec needs its own gear for that spec.

 

The gearing system sucks period. PVP and pve need different gear plain and simple

Good thing 330 is supposed to give 326 stats in PvP...

This is a giant problem for pvp. Some specs require certain break points. With current gearing the balance is out of wack. Essentially with current gear each spec needs its own gear for that spec.

Oh no no no

Balance is swirling in the toilet irregardless of gear.

What break points do you know of that would un-wack current balance.

I would do more MM FPs, but it takes way too long to get a pop as a dps. Tanking them is not an option for me, because it will just make me angry. Everyone is a "tank" now after 6.0. They don't queue as a tank, but they sure are fast to pull before the real tank and make things ten times more difficult than needed. When group wipes they blame the tank or the healer. If you ask them nicely to let the tank pull, they get toxic.

 

My sanity can only deal with MM FPs as a dps, and at least then I'll know for sure we have at least one dps who let's the tank engage, pulls their own weight in boss fights, knows the mechanics and kill order, and walks loose mobs that are chewing up a newbie turret healer towards the tank to take the aggro and so on. But yeah, it never pops for a dps, so no MM flashpoints in this expansion.

I'm going to give you the same advice I give to a lot of other people when it comes to group content. Find a good guild. As someone with a lot of alts, I've been in a number of different guilds. Just to see how others do things, and cause you get to meet other cool people, who enjoy the same things you do. That said most guilds have people running content together (some way more than others). However a good tank is never in short supply, so if you want to tank, do it with a guild, and enjoy running that content. Or if you want to stay dps find a tank or healer who will run with you to get faster ques works as well.

That said, I still feel like FPs (MM especially) need to give more.

Daily's give DRM (previously ARM) which are needed for all gear upgrades.

Conquest material also gives conquest material needed for all upgrades.

PvP is basically the best pre raid gear you can get, and is a stepping stone for a lot of people going into Ops.

Non Rakata raid gear gives you Ops currency to upgrade your Rakata gear, so even lower level raids still offer something, and lots of tech frags for your implants or just OEM / RPM parts for $$.

FP though. I mean yea I guess you get gear to use it as a stepping stone to enter Ops with. However it's inferior to PvP gear, and takes longer to get. Non MM FPs even top out at 322, which is worse than conquest gear, and MM FP are still blue and thus inferior to PvP gear. This is a real let down, considering how long some of these FPs can take. I would even be happy if FPs offered a lot of Jawa scrap for crafting purposes, which have been in very short supply with the launch of 7.0. I would actually run way more FPs to level up my crafting on alts and what not. However as it stands, meh.

Oh and before I forget the red headed step child of this game, Uprisings. This mode needs something more too, so that people will run this. Outside of a few select guild runs here and there for conquest points, I don't think anyone does these anymore. Bioware needs to attach better rewards here, cause the game mode is actually good, just pointless atm.

StarParse is a double edged sword but it's not inherently evil.

If a pug group can't even pass the first boss in EV or KP HM, and 3 out of 5 DPS do <10k DPS, you know it's a lost cause.

Now, leaving a group like that is totally justified, but being a super dick about it is not.

I thought that's basic manners.