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Can't Believe the Un-ending Trend Towards Dumbing Down the Game


Ahl-Vinn

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Yours truly was originally looking forward to 7.0, with the focus towards group-content and the expansion of the fighting styles.

 

After reading about the dumbing-down of the gearing system though, I was just so discouraged. I can't *believe* they found a way to dumb things down, even further. WHEN will we stop catering to the most casual and un-invested of players?

 

The subtraction of complexity just takes me out of it. Gearing is my favorite aspect of SWTOR. I was the type of player who was saddened when we stopped having the ability to gear-up our companions, a few years back. Don't get me wrong: Companion tanking is better than it was before - but it still felt like a loss. The de-evolution of the token system by which we were modding gear to level? Still fine - maybe it even added feasability to crafting levelling upgrades, with the removal of the blues and the change to buying only greens. But the static stats that we'll now be getting? Oof.... It's just too much.

 

We're not allowed to criticize the game on the forums, so I know this thread will quickly be removed - but OMG! When, when, WHEN will we get an MMO that values time-investment and lengthly player-projects over simplicity and casual play?

 

 

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After reading about the dumbing-down of the gearing system though, I was just so discouraged. I can't *believe* they found a way to dumb things down, even further. WHEN will we stop catering to the most casual and un-invested of players?

I'm not sure how dumbed down the new system will be, but I can say the obvious answer to your question. BW is interested in making money from their game. If they (think they) can attract more paying customers by dumbing it down, you can assume that they will.

While writing this I thought something similar - "when are the movie studios going to stop catering to dumb super hero fans and make some good sci-fi movies?" But it ends out to be the same problem. 🙄

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One bright note, it might be helpful to be handed static gear for some.

 

My guildies told me in Discord last night that they were in a PvP match and barely taking any damage, and the suspicion was that the people in the fight were WoW refugees who'd yet to figure out effective rotations. Then one guildie examined the gear of the tank on her team, the guy didn't even have a shield, and his stats were all wonky.

 

Being handed static gear where people can't play with their stats might be just what this new crowd needs.

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We're not allowed to criticize the game on the forums, so I know this thread will quickly be removed - but OMG! When, when, WHEN will we get an MMO that values time-investment and lengthly player-projects over simplicity and casual play?

 

Probably when people have infinite time to play without real life dictating the amount of time they can spend doing so, when they have infinite money to spend on subscriptions and transactions so developers won't need to focus on keeping a cash flow, and when attention spans become eternal so players no longer get bored grinding stuff and need to do something casual to keep their interest up.

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Yours truly was originally looking forward to 7.0, with the focus towards group-content and the expansion of the fighting styles.

 

After reading about the dumbing-down of the gearing system though, I was just so discouraged. I can't *believe* they found a way to dumb things down, even further. WHEN will we stop catering to the most casual and un-invested of players?

 

In 6.0, all tiers of gear were immediately available. So as usual, us players found the quickest path to 306 gear and farmed it. I think this was unintended. From what I can tell, the devs plan to continue releasing new tiers of gear throughout the year. By the end, I imagine we'll all be wearing ~350 gold gear.

 

In addition to grinding iRating, players will have new Tacticals plus set bonus Implants, which have their own upgrade path to "legendary" separate from other gear.

 

I was the type of player who was saddened when we stopped having the ability to gear-up our companions, a few years back. Don't get me wrong: Companion tanking is better than it was before - but it still felt like a loss.

 

I miss gearing my comp too, but I get why they removed it :(

 

The de-evolution of the token system by which we were modding gear to level? Still fine - maybe it even added feasability to crafting levelling upgrades, with the removal of the blues and the change to buying only greens. But the static stats that we'll now be getting? Oof.... It's just too much.

 

It looks like moddable gear doesn't start until 334 iLevel? https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20211102

So 7.1?

 

We're not allowed to criticize the game on the forums, so I know this thread will quickly be removed

 

If that were true, there'd only be "<3 <3 <3 This is a Theron love thread, haters make your own!!!" threads because 9/10 threads are complaint threads. :D

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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I certainly don't miss gearing comps. Each one had its own specialty back then, rather than being a Swiss army knife, and you were stuck with that companion during the course of a certain portion of your class story, so there you were, having to either move gear around between comps, or provide gear for all comps, and you get 20 or 30 characters going—not even near what I've accumulated—each with 5 class story components, and it became a nightmare.
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Not allowed to criticise? Have you actually been on these forums before? It seems more like you aren't allowed to praise anything. People sit around on these boards all day whinging about one thing or the other, they aren't getting removed for it unless they are openly inappropriate or breaking other rules. So don't act like a martyr. Just make your point.

 

And they wanna "dumb down" the game because normal gamers aren't incredible masochists who enjoy punishment... They want to get some popularity back. Some players. You think 5% of hardcores they can attract is worth more than 95% of the casual players out there who don't dedicate their whole lives to one game just to gear up?

 

I say the solution is easy though, they should take that casual gamer cash and make hardcore mode servers for folks like you with much harder game settings and mechanics that you can transfer over to.. Heck, they could even let you gear your companions again. I have no idea how possible that is of course, but hey, why not toss it out there.

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My very first post on these boards was about how bad the average player is at this game. Insofar as content? 7.0 will provide very little. Insofar as gearing? Certain playstyles have been incentivized, while others have had the Nerfhammer taken to them.

 

Balancing, lack of story / content, and the ignoring of PvPers and Crafters, while bending the knee towards {NICHE CROWD} will have second and third order effects.

 

Said effects will not be pretty.

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If that were true, there'd only be "<3 <3 <3 This is a Theron love thread, haters make your own!!!" threads because 9/10 threads are complaint threads. :D

 

No, no, we complain about the game there too. How we hate the kill option causing him to appear less even when you play the game correctly and keep him around or marry him. We hate the Lana Baniko infatuation the game has, such as she's the one you see when you wake up after saving Satele defeating Tenebrae and she wasn't even on that mission.

 

We who like Theron are there with you holding torches and pitchforks.

:D

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One bright note, it might be helpful to be handed static gear for some.

 

My guildies told me in Discord last night that they were in a PvP match and barely taking any damage, and the suspicion was that the people in the fight were WoW refugees who'd yet to figure out effective rotations. Then one guildie examined the gear of the tank on her team, the guy didn't even have a shield, and his stats were all wonky.

 

Being handed static gear where people can't play with their stats might be just what this new crowd needs.

 

And that’s fine. But they didn’t need to remove the option of modded gear or should I say gate it behind Operations in 7.1 for months.

 

I think the real issue with the tank not having a shield is the game often drops too much stuff that isn’t for your spec or class. It’s no wonder new players are confused. If the game just dropped stuff for what you need, the only options would be to equip the right stuff.

 

Of course, that might be what they are trying to do with the static gear. But they could still achieve the same out come by allowing it to be modded. Exactly how you currently have the green 268-272 gear.

 

Sadly, this static gear idea is worse because BioWare themselves readily admitted they haven’t optimised it. Probably because they have no clue how their own stats work (as demonstrated for the last 9 years).

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Yours truly was originally looking forward to 7.0, with the focus towards group-content and the expansion of the fighting styles.

 

After reading about the dumbing-down of the gearing system though, I was just so discouraged. I can't *believe* they found a way to dumb things down, even further. WHEN will we stop catering to the most casual and un-invested of players?

 

 

hmmm im not sorry that i am a casual player . um excuse me uninvested ? sorry to burst your bubble but just because i play casually doesn't mean i wasn't invested . Ive raided nim mode before , ive done ranked pvp before its nothing new , i just prefer to play casually . So excuse you after i came back i grinded reg pvp to get my set bonus gear etc . Just because im a "casual " doesn't mean im not invested in gearing up regardless what the devs do .

 

Also you should be thankful for us "casuals" other wise this game would have died out years ago .

Edited by LordKitana
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If that were true, there'd only be "<3 <3 <3 This is a Theron love thread, haters make your own!!!" threads because 9/10 threads are complaint threads. :D

 

There are so many complaints in that thread lol because how Bioware is being totally unfair to Theron's character.

 

Back to the topic.

 

I don't mind the new gearing in terms of dumbing down the game (I dislike the gating of the basic irating of gears. It feels like a spit to "casuals" like me who enjoy gearing up despite not doing NiM or ranked PvP) more than how we are losing abilities instead of picking the abilities we want. That's real stupid. May as well remove all but 2 skills so this game could be ported to smart phones.

Edited by eabevella
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how we are losing abilities instead of picking the abilities we want. That's real stupid. May as well remove all but 2 skills so this game could be ported to smart phones.

I mean we are gonna see how it will go, almost everyone will be losing something be it stuns, mobility, defensives or other utilities.

I am quite excited to see how pvp will feel now because there will be noticeable differences, with some classes having less mobility or defensives and stuns it means people might have to be more careful to survive instead of rely on their 5th hyper mobility/defensive ability etc

 

Things are going to be definitely different and really excited to see how, or how bad it will turn up with mercs not losing any of their dcds xd

 

Though of course if your complaint is you are losing stuff and simply hate that without caring about why this is done, its another subject and feelings are not a serious discussion.

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After reading about the dumbing-down of the gearing system though, I was just so discouraged. I can't *believe* they found a way to dumb things down, even further. WHEN will we stop catering to the most casual and un-invested of players?

[/i]

 

Worry not, with the new gearing and changes to conquest they managed to anger this group of players too.

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I mean we are gonna see how it will go, almost everyone will be losing something be it stuns, mobility, defensives or other utilities.

I am quite excited to see how pvp will feel now because there will be noticeable differences, with some classes having less mobility or defensives and stuns it means people might have to be more careful to survive instead of rely on their 5th hyper mobility/defensive ability etc

 

Things are going to be definitely different and really excited to see how, or how bad it will turn up with mercs not losing any of their dcds xd

 

Though of course if your complaint is you are losing stuff and simply hate that without caring about why this is done, its another subject and feelings are not a serious discussion.

 

Then they should disable those abilities in pvp instead of let the larger player base suffer.

 

"Some people use gasoline to convict arson? Let's ban everyone from using gasoline" That's just the stupidest and laziest way to solve a problem.

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Worry not, with the new gearing and changes to conquest they managed to anger this group of players too.

 

Yep.

 

I think maybe raiders are not mad? I wouldn't even bet on that...

 

But yeah, everyone having the same gear regardless of spec boggles my mind. Sheesh even Everquest 20 years ago didn't do that...

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Ithink maybe raiders are not mad? I wouldn't even bet on that....

 

Coming from WoW I can confirm raiders never stop complaining, WoW has become the raid loggers dream and they still complained about the few times they had to go through Torghast and covenants because omg they had to go through a fight while being 2% suboptimal, the horror.

 

Trust me, these people are never satisfied, even when all forms of casual content has been gutted and casual gear is literally 30 ilvls below max, they still complain.

Edited by ralphieceaser
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Coming from WoW I can confirm raiders never stop complaining, WoW has become the raid loggers dream and they still complained about the few times they had to go through Torghast and covenants because omg they had to go through a fight while being 2% suboptimal, the horror.

 

Trust me, these people are never satisfied, even when all forms of casual content has been gutted and casual gear is literally 30 ilvls below max, they still complain.

 

+ 1.

 

Bending the knee to that {NICHE CROWD} is, in the long-run, counterproductive.

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We're not allowed to criticize the game on the forums, so I know this thread will quickly be removed - but OMG! When, when, WHEN will we get an MMO that values time-investment and lengthly player-projects over simplicity and casual play?

 

Casual players make up the largest player segment. MMO developers ignore this at their peril. There are also many elder and disabled folks who play this game for the story. That is why many of us are worried for the game because of the 7.0 gear changes.

 

There are many ways for you to make the game more difficult for yourself by taking off armor, etc. You just choose not to do it and want everyone else to play the game like you, which is a selfishness that I hope you grow out of.

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I think maybe raiders are not mad? I wouldn't even bet on that...

 

Raiders who enjoy optimising their rotations are probably mad about the ability purge. The only group I see enjoying the changes is a subset of raiders who mainly want the gear for bragging rights.

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We're not allowed to criticize the game on the forums, so I know this thread will quickly be removed - but OMG! When, when, WHEN will we get an MMO that values time-investment and lengthly player-projects over simplicity and casual play?

 

 

 

To be fair, everyone's definition about time investment and lengthly player projects varies greatly.

 

Most MMOs think that raiding is the epitome of playing and that raiders should get all the good stuff. Meanwhile, solo players get ignored when, when it comes to time investment, they can end up playing more (plus doing challenging things like master mode chapters).

 

Lengthly projects? The only thing I can remember a bit like that were epic weapons etc, involving a long quest line. It wasn't difficult, but required getting help from others for group and raid content, which was frankly often a real PITA. No special skill involved, just luck and connections to get groups doing. I got to say, I'm glad we don't have those in SWTOR (although the HK quest line could qualify).

 

If you ask me, the idea that only group content deserved to reward anything worthwhile is flawed. People hunting for achievements, for example, deserve way more credits than people who just pew pew in a raid.

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Sadly, this static gear idea is worse because BioWare themselves readily admitted they haven’t optimised it. Probably because they have no clue how their own stats work (as demonstrated for the last 9 years).

 

I don't think the optimization is bad due to incompetence, I think it's due to malice. Like a certain subset of the player-base, the developers clearly don't think the majority of players deserve good gear. I'm sure their current philosophy is that if players can only get the crappiest of crappy gear by playing the content they enjoy, they will be motivated to play the content they don't like so they can get less crappy gear. Players enjoying playing is NOT a priority.

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I don't think the optimization is bad due to incompetence, I think it's due to malice. Like a certain subset of the player-base, the developers clearly don't think the majority of players deserve good gear. I'm sure their current philosophy is that if players can only get the crappiest of crappy gear by playing the content they enjoy, they will be motivated to play the content they don't like so they can get less crappy gear. Players enjoying playing is NOT a priority.

 

A failed paradigm for over a decade now.

 

I do respectfully disagree with your second sentence. "Never attribute to malice, what can be explained by incompetence or stupidity"

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I don't think the optimization is bad due to incompetence, I think it's due to malice. Like a certain subset of the player-base, the developers clearly don't think the majority of players deserve good gear. I'm sure their current philosophy is that if players can only get the crappiest of crappy gear by playing the content they enjoy, they will be motivated to play the content they don't like so they can get less crappy gear. Players enjoying playing is NOT a priority.

 

What, exactly, does it mean to have "good gear"? If it's simply a higher number then you are very very mistaken. It's why you should be significantly more concerned with non moddable gear which ironically enough is what the "subset" of the population that you refer to is concerned about. Or at least what's left of the subset of the population you are blaming for zero reason. And you know what? Let's just be totally honest. Gear from 326 to 330 from a performance perspective won't be noticeable. At all.

 

So to sum it up, nim raiders do not care if you have gear. We don't care if you have an avenue for it. And while it doesn't matter to us, it is still a complete and total fact of swtor life that if you ARE a solo player (strictly solo not casual which has a vastly different meaning altogether) then you more than likely have zero actual need for super bis gear. The only two pieces of content for a solo player that I could see needing "higher level" gear would be that Eternal Champion solo dungeon, verteran and master mode chapters. And NOBODY would care if you could get gear for that. The sad truth about all this is that most of the people complaining that they MAY not have IMMEDIATE access to top gear are guilty of the exact thing they're pushing onto my crowd. Greed. Entitlement.

 

Now, it's COMPLETLEY valid to claim that the solo experience is negatively impacted by the new weekly mission system, or the doubling of conquest. But, sheesh. The idea that "because of nightmare raiders we can't have nice things anymore" is so utterly wrong. None of us care. This "crowd" that seems hell bent on blaming the nightmare raiding community just seems to need some avenue to vent. Vent towards the developers.

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What, exactly, does it mean to have "good gear"? If it's simply a higher number then you are very very mistaken. It's why you should be significantly more concerned with non moddable gear which ironically enough is what the "subset" of the population that you refer to is concerned about. Or at least what's left of the subset of the population you are blaming for zero reason. And you know what? Let's just be totally honest. Gear from 326 to 330 from a performance perspective won't be noticeable. At all.

 

So to sum it up, nim raiders do not care if you have gear. (1) We don't care if you have an avenue for it. And while it doesn't matter to us, it is still a complete and total fact of swtor life that if you ARE a solo player (strictly solo not casual which has a vastly different meaning altogether) then you more than likely have zero actual need for super bis gear. (2) The only two pieces of content for a solo player that I could see needing "higher level" gear would be that Eternal Champion solo dungeon, verteran and master mode chapters. And NOBODY would care if you could get gear for that. The sad truth about all this is that most of the people complaining that they MAY not have IMMEDIATE access to top gear are guilty of the exact thing they're pushing onto my crowd. Greed. Entitlement.

 

Now, it's COMPLETLEY valid to claim that the solo experience is negatively impacted by the new weekly mission system, or the doubling of conquest. But, sheesh. The idea that "because of nightmare raiders we can't have nice things anymore" is so utterly wrong. None of us care. This "crowd" that seems hell bent on blaming the nightmare raiding community just seems to need some avenue to vent. Vent towards the developers. (3)

 

(1) I did not realize you speak for all Nim Raiders. Did you take a survey? A poll? Have a meeting in Discord and do a voice vote?

 

There are supposed NiM raiders ON THESE BOARDS, who not only applaud these changes, but use the same "logik" you do to defend them.

 

(2) Technically you don't "need" BIS gear to clear raids. Now as an incentive to sell carries? Absolutely.

 

(3) Would these be the same Devs that many on the boards acknowledge are in Voice communication with said raiders? Asking for a friend.

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