Jump to content

Jedi Guardian Feedback


JackieKo

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 554
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Guys, I know we all hate the current state of affairs and think it's a mistake, but it may be best to give specific alternatives for the devs reading this.

 

"Please don't." and "we hate it", while true, aren't something they'll take into account. "Don't put saber reflect as one of the options" or "don't remove intercede", however, are specific policy changes.

 

So yeah, phrase suggestions as specific changes you want to see, maybe? I'd also focus on suggestions that maintain the "feel" of the class, per the original request by devs, and use the other class changes as a basis of comparison, eg: sins, operatives...

Edited by Ugolino
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First impression is that you took away too many abilities. I know this is only very early and I'm guessing that some of the staples (like focus builders and saber throw) were left out until they could be fit in, but please don't do what SWG did with their NGE. They dumbed it down so much that the game just wasn't fun anymore.

 

I'd rather no expansion at all vs going with what appears to be a dumbed down version of the game. Are you trying to make this compatible with devices other than a PC? Also vote no for that.

 

Best of luck with the rest of it.

 

I mean you went easy on them compared to another FRIEND of mine. I mean lots of talk of far less abilities, or reduced proficiencies, than what were gaining from having Combat Styles or Loadouts! :(

 

So trying to stay constructive:

 

I think they LOST FOCUS on what they should have DONE with Loudouts! Which is offered them to quickly switch Gear, Change proficiencies, or swapping items quickly that are in Bank or Cargo Hold. I mean I don't do PvP, but when I do I mostly stink (not because I'm bad) yet I don't like setting a PvP Build with Combat Profencies, Gear & Tactical, just because as soon as match is over I have to change it all back... ...loadouts should really have been used mostly for that!

 

So here is the constructive part... ...sadly what's DONE is DONE, so all we can HOPE for is they add some abilities back to a few Class. Maybe there is still time to FIX this, before it goes LIVE. Sadly now Combat Style changes I wished they never did!

 

This thread is about TANK though, and I'm NOT the person who plays them often. My friend who plays a tank well described it, "if you're playing Tank you're not going to be picking the one ATTACK skill at level 20" and then added, "you're going to pick the pathetic defense skill that does almost nothing". Some of these could be corrected by giving better defensive abilities for JUG TANKs, and as already mentioned above, returning a few abilities we often associated with a Class or Combat Style. Or mostly, make them more similar to what they did to the Imperial side...

 

Yet like many I'm thinking the REAL REWARD will be for those who stay on 6.3 or earlier...

 

Haven't even heard good things about the new Interface either, so I created this trying to stay constructive:

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=997315

 

So HOPE they listen and strongly rethink several, if not many things people aren't liking.

 

I really had hoped to see a lot warmer reception to many of the changes, but now mostly want to give up the Combat Style changes--you gain nothing just by changing your weapon, because you just loose to much! :(

Edited by Strathkin
Grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

:( I like how the Interface is TODAY, far more (if not a lot more) than I like what I see on PTS.

 

I mostly don't like the NEW interface really... ...it's centered all around the choice of DROP-DOWN, and you don't see any abilities at first, and requires twice as much clicking or selecting!

https://i.imgur.com/VpKmFnC.png

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=997315

 

I'm not much of a TANK player, just all I read above, mean's I'm NOT likely to create one for 7.0 at all. I mean sounds like Sith get some decent BUFFs, yet as a Republic they really got NERFED bad. Very sad, because it's already very hard to find a good tank in the game.

*sigh*

Edited by Strathkin
Grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Jedi Guardian.

 

Please answer the following questions:

  • Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.
  • Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?
  • What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?
  • How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?
  • If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking. Please include the specific Discipline and ability path you chose.

 

Thank you!

 

 

I'm not a super hardcore player but I have played this game for over 8 years and I have some thoughts on the coming changes in 7.0 as I experienced them on the PTS today.

 

Let me first answer the slate of questions posed by JackieKo.

 

1. It "sort of" feels like I'm playing a Jedi Guardian; it looks like a Guardian but it also feels like I'm playing end game content on a level 50 character with the gaps in abilities. If it goes live in the current iteration I won't be playing a Guardian (if I remain in SWTOR - and that is now a question).

 

2. The limitation of choices for skills narrows the build to a cookie cutter (meta) solution for really only 2 paths so it's a bit like putting an automobile on rails - yes you have a steering wheel but it doesn't really serve any purpose. I almost never use Blade Blitz on Live but I do use Enure and Sabre Reflect extensively. My long-developed play-style will be ended by 7.0

 

3. While I was able to take on and defeat the groups of mobs in the missions, it required more time and more cycles of skills that don't seem to do what they used to do. (same icons but ... not really same skills?) I did not feel like I was playing a level 75 character - and certainly not a level 80 character. For defensive solo PVE play it's probably "passable" but if you're trying to play DPS/Off-tank in Master mode or even some Vet mode Operations of Flashpoints, this set up is going to die, a LOT. Cool-downs will become a friction point if you go forward with this plan; fewer skills that don't quite do what was previously available will require much much shorter cool-downs on the skills (particularly the few DEFENSIVE skills) that remain.

 

4. I have to say I did not enjoy the test play. It felt like "Guardian lite". My test character could neither deal the damage of my level 75 live server Guardian nor take damage as well as my level 75 live server Guardian. In fact I would not feel comfortable running my test server Guardian in a Vet mode flashpoint queue on the live server. I have to hope that this gets very significantly re-worked or reversed entirely before going live.

 

5. I have to give a word of caution about table-flipping your game to "stream-line" it for prospective players that don't want to read what skills do or take the time to experiment and find out what works. CRYPTIC Games did this exact same game re-work to "streamline" and "reduce confusion" in their top 2 games Star Trek Online and Neverwinter. Both games bled off a very significant percentage of their player-base and have not recovered 2 years later. They went from averaging 7500 Steam players online in prime time to 2700 after "streamlining improvements". The venture you are here engaged in is perilous at best and I think you should consider the track record of other large games that have "streamlined" long-established skill trees.

 

SWTOR as it exists right now on the LIVE servers is one of the best balanced multiplayer games online; changing it now after a decade of small and relatively small adjustments in such a radical way will almost certainly be destabilizing and cause the kind of class imbalances typically seen in brand new games.

 

Now let's talk a little bit about what these changes do to crafting and specifically, armor and weapon modifications.: No-one has really touched on this yet that I've read so far, but the changes you're making will directly impact modifications for armor and weapons. It will also make some of the built-in buffs on extant Gold tier reward armors obsolete as they will boost skills no longer available to certain class builds. Players that have built up their characters with Gold tier armors with level 306 gear mods and augments will find that their gear needs re-worked to function with the skill changes on their character or that their gear set is now worthless and they need a new set of gear entirely. (For Example: some armors for Guardians boost Blade Blitz but if you pick Enure or Sabre Reflect - that armor buff is now garbage).

 

I hope these changes are much more refined before release but my experience with other games that have streamlined their skill trees has not been good. I know it's mute to point this out now, but why make what must be a very expensive fix for a problem that doesn't exist? This solution will cause issues that you don't currently have.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reviewed Guardian again. I honestly still can't believe what you all have done to the class in comparison to others. It blows my mind. If anything Guardian should have been the baseline that you used to bring the other classes in line.

 

No silly gimmicks, no crazy burst, no massive array of CC on a short cooldown, No 6 second reflect that blocks every noteworthy ability and heals you to full, no evasion on a 60 second cooldown with 150% reflect utility, the list goes on. DPS Juggernaut is literally the most balanced spec in the game, and one of the easiest to counter which is why it gets demolished in ranked as is.

 

More importantly, it's also one of the most fun to play in its current iteration. There's a reason this thread has 505 replies and 48,869 views with the overwhelming majority of responses being negative. You've literally gutted the class for no good reason.

 

Some things that you should consider changing to save the class.

 

Level 15: Has some fun things for PVE, but nothing really impactful for PVP like the other tiers. I recommend moving Gather Strength to this tier. It doesn't make any sense to have a skillful utility as a level 80 choice.

 

Level 20: Again PVE vs PVP choice. Since we're losing Freezing Force, Blade Burst is pretty much going to be a requirement for PVP. Overall cool choices that don't thoroughly gimp the class one way or another.

 

Level 30: PVE vs PVP choices. The amount of movement speed other classes have is going to dictate whether or not anyone chooses Burning Pommel over Force Skewer. Good passive effects on our main damage ability though.

 

Level 35: Searing meditation is almost never going to be used. The choice becomes Awe or Critical Conditions. I'm not a fan of actives and passives occupying the same tier. Remove Awe from this tier and replace it with a different passive. (Strangulate, Thrown Gauntlet, Reckoning, Through Power....etc. Imperial player here lol).

 

Level 50: I like that this is all passives. Again, almost no one is going to use Unyielding Justice. Dump it and replace with something more useful. As it stands most everyone will choose Battlefield Command. Defiance situational.

 

Level 70: The biggest offender of the list. This choice is in no way in line with what other classes have here. Sins, Operatives, Snipers all have it way, way better here. This tier needs to be reworked for Guardians and Sentinels. Class destroying in its current iteration.

 

Blade Blitz has no business being in the same tier as Saber Reflect and Enure. A light damaging attack mostly used for strategic repositioning and purging roots. It's a fundamentally different skill that's in no way a replacement for Saber Reflect or Enure. If the myriad of slows and roots (example: blazing bolts and sniper knockback root), hydraulic overrides, force speed, and that ridiculous run speed buff that Snipers have are going to remain a thing then this needs to be baseline. With the removal of the Freezing Force run speed buff this is a must have.

 

Understand the reason why this tier is a problem. Guardians are not Sentinels or Shadows. We cannot choose to leave the fight once we're in it. Our utility, and our ability to stand and fight is what sets us apart. Not having Saber Reflect and Enure means that our ability to stand and fight, to be Guardians and Juggernauts no longer exists. Rule #1 with this class is that it should be able to stand its ground and fight. It doesn't need to do more damage, that's why we have sentinels. It needs to be able to stay in the fight.

 

Now, in MMOs melee DPS needs a way to chase classes like Mercs, Sorcs, and everything else in this game that has crazy run speed. This choice not only removes our ability to be Guardians / Juggernauts, but to chase as well. I mean, we get outrun by Snipers which makes no sense from a lore perspective. A non force user absolutely dusting a force user in a foot race...I mean, what?

 

As it stands right now Mercenaries can stand their ground and facetank better than a class called Juggernaut. A ranged DPS class. That...is just weird. The level 70 choice for mercs would have to be Responsive Safeguards, Energy Shield, Rocket Out to even be remotely similar, but the kicker is they would still have hydraulic overrides AND electro net. You'd have every Merc in the game rage quitting if they lost these. Not to mention Rocket Out is thematically a great skill for Mercs to have. Removing it is as weird as a Guardian that can't augment their movement with the force (Blade Blitz, Guardian Leap, Combat Focus run speed).

 

Replace this god awful tier with Enure, Guardian Leap, and Awe for Vigilance. Three different abilities that are each impactful. Their use varies based on player style, but a lack of one doesn't destroy the classes overall viability.

 

Level 80: I'm not sure what to say here aside from this is hot garbage. This tier lacks inspiration. Almost no one uses purifying sweep. For Vigilance / Vengeance we already get a defensive sunder on our Rage / Focus builder. This is redundant. The choice becomes Through Peace vs Gather Strength.

 

Again almost no one is going to choose Gather Strength, a tier one utility, over Through Peace. The only real choice here is Through Peace.

 

I recommend moving Gather strength to level 15, dropping or rolling Purifying Sweep into the base spec, and replacing it with something more meaningful.

 

Achieving level 80 should be a new milestone. It's an increase in level cap and we should be rewarded with something awesome. I understand time is short, but you guys are BioWare. You've made some of the most immersive RPGs to date. Surely you can think of something more interesting than this.

 

Most Jugg players wish their Juggernaut had the ability to use Force Lightning. Add something with a cool force lightning imbued visual effect for a melee ability. Think Galen Marek from the force unleashed. The ability doesn't need to be overpowered, just something visually appealing. Like Vengeful Slam but a little different.

 

Or, remember we're Juggernauts / Guardians. As cool as force lightning is, the number one thing that we should be doing is leaping into the fight and staying in the fight. Juggernauts get a staying power tool while Marauders get a force lightning imbued attack.

 

After it's all said and done what's on Live is not only easier to understand, but also more FUN to play. I can't say that I agree with you all that 7.0 is going to increase customization and player choice. You're really just divesting us of what makes the game fun and trying to sell it to us. You would have only needed to make small changes to balance the game as is. You all might as well just come out and tell us why you want to destroy something that isn't broken. Why do you want to make the game less fun and engaging?

 

Guardians and Sentinels are not becoming more fun to play with these changes. Quite the opposite.

 

As for the new UI it's not only less visually appealing, but harder to understand than the current UI. The old UI had arrows and a clear path to follow with skills you can read along the way. Selectable passives are on the opposite side, and active abilities are again in their own window. You can open them and view them all side by side.

 

The current UI you've mixed actives and passives together and made it so you have to toggle a tab in the same window. You can no longer just view them all side by side like you can now.

 

This change makes about as much sense as what you're doing to the classes and combat. I love SWTOR like many people, but I fail to understand how any of these changes makes the game better.

Edited by Dyne-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I'm not a super hardcore player but I have played this game for over 8 years and I have some thoughts on the coming changes in 7.0 as I experienced them on the PTS today.

 

Let me first answer the slate of questions posed by JackieKo.

 

1. It "sort of" feels like I'm playing a Jedi Guardian; it looks like a Guardian but it also feels like I'm playing end game content on a level 50 character with the gaps in abilities. If it goes live in the current iteration I won't be playing a Guardian (if I remain in SWTOR - and that is now a question).

 

2. The limitation of choices for skills narrows the build to a cookie cutter (meta) solution for really only 2 paths so it's a bit like putting an automobile on rails - yes you have a steering wheel but it doesn't really serve any purpose. I almost never use Blade Blitz on Live but I do use Enure and Sabre Reflect extensively. My long-developed play-style will be ended by 7.0

 

Well said, I think this SUMS up the Feedback the vast majority have said; hopefully they strongly consider this and make some revisions before it's too late. Sadly many DEV's get very closed minded, and commit to what ever goals they intented, rather than adjust regardless how negative the feedback is. :(

 

They really shooting themselves in the foot here, and not just once, but twice; which seems just silly! :rolleyes:

Edited by Strathkin
Grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Understand the reason why this tier is a problem. Guardians are not Sentinels or Shadows. We cannot choose to leave the fight once we're in it. Our utility, and our ability to stand and fight is what sets us apart. Not having Saber Reflect and Enure means that our ability to stand and fight, to be Guardians and Juggernauts no longer exists. Rule #1 with this class is that it should be able to stand its ground and fight. It doesn't need to do more damage, that's why we have sentinels. It needs to be able to stay in the fight.

 

Well said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the problem is PvP these are what they are trying to change all the stuns, defense for it's not a PvE thing at all it could have been easily dealt with having a PvE tree and PvP that way they can isolate stuff at a much easier pace instead of hurting the other play type.

 

Yea I mean I like idea of having a diverse PvP Skill Tree, perhaps even limiting Tacticals to either PvE or PvP (only) as that's the only real way to address this! I just know I'm really not liking the vast majority of changes thus-far; despite Combat-Style seemed appealing previously, now you just have to give up far too much!

 

Not only can they not stand and fight in their current state but they also cannot run from the fight (removal of intercede, mad dash a choice)

 

Yea, they really hurt Guardian's overly bad... then I was thinking over the weekend, what else could I offer aside from what I wrote (above or before) to try and be constructive. Clearly they need better defensive abilities, yet that is obvious!

 

Still I think they are just asking too much, not that people can't ADJUST or ADAPT. It's for many classes, those 3 abilities were often CORE to the CLASS. I thought about this a lot this last weekend, then I realized something...

 

IF ONLY: (Constructive Part for them to RETHINK)

 

It wouldn't be so bad, if depending on the CLASS selected; you were limited to just 2 of the 3.

╘ it also require DEVs to adapt, just as much as they are expecting us too!

 

  1. That allow people at least some flexibly to adapt; having a PvP Skill Tree, separate from PvE.
  2. It also allow them to adjust, by limiting (most) Tacticals to PvE, or PvP, etc...
  3. Also giving most classes a choice between 2 of the 3 former abilities!
  4. They could slightly revise Passive's abilities to account for it; or (adapt) changes just to PvE, or PvP.
  5. Allows smaller changes, and seperates the two environments; as what works in each is very different.

 

Honestly, if they did that people wouldn't likely be as upset, cause right now they are!

Edited by Strathkin
Grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since there weren't any updates to the Guardian this last PTS patch, I'm going to reconsolidate my thoughts having done some more testing with the previous set of changes (saber throw baseline, ability tree reshuffle).

 

Testing was done with the new level 80 boost, 328 gear and no tacticals of any kind. Since normal mobs don't offer any sort of challenge (beyond the abundance of abilities that slow the Guardian - who has even less means to escape slows now), I decided to fight the champion Imperial Guard mobs that usually defend speeders and medical droids. Normal mobs have between 50-170k hp while the Imperial Guard has 3 million and thus is more like a parsing dummy that fights back - allowing you to test your damage, rotation and survivability all at once.

 

General Thoughts and universal passives

 

Vigilance and Focus performed fairly similarly though interestingly I seemed to be taking less damage on Focus than on Vigilance (on live, Vigilance tends to be more survivable). I attribute this to the lack of a permanent 5% damage reduction passive for Vigilance (it appears to have been removed), and a decently high uptime 10% damage reduction granted by the level 80 passive for Focus. Both Focus and Vigilance kept high levels of focus throughout the fight resulting in no need at all to use strike to regain focus. Rotations remain unchanged from live though have more room for higher focus attacks.

 

On the other hand, my health bar did not move at all while playing Defense in DPS gear (I didn't even have a shield equipped). Not only that, but it appeared as though I was doing more damage as a skank tank. Due to the marked focus passive, I only needed to use strike a couple times over the course of the fight. From this initial comparison, combined with the fact that Defense actually has more abilities baseilne and is thus more interesting to play, leads me to believe that Defense will be the go to class for many players in solo content. Defense feels like the true Guardian experience while Vigilance and Focus are missing that extra oomf to make them feel like an unstoppable juggernaut of combat.

 

Shared Passives:

 

 

Level 20:

  • Cyclone slash - better now that it deals slightly more base damage, still doesn't have much of a use for me outside AoE threat building as Defence. Both other specs have better AoE tools available if they need to tech into AoE.
  • Blade Burst - what cyclone slash wishes it could be. Deals over double the damage of cyclone slash but with a cooldown.
  • Kinetic / burning barrage - fun single target option, can be combined with later passives for extra focus generation.

 

Level 35:

  • Critical Conditions/Defense - one of the only two ways to remove movement impairing effects through an active ability. Reduced cooldown is hampered by the need for attacks to crit.
  • Guardian leap (tank) / Awe (dps)
  • Marked Focus/ Searing Meditation / Focused Meditation - all roughly the same concept, allow for much better focus management in longer fights and are likely the default option in PvE.

Merge Guardian Leap and Force Leap for all disciplines.

Guardian leap should be baseline on every discipline - or it should be baked into Force Leap such that Force Leap can be used on either friendly or enemy targets, just like holotraverse. This enables Guardians and Juggernauts to keep some of the mobility they desperately need in PvP combat while also pruning a button.

I don't mind missing Awe as much as I thought I would since it can't be used on bosses, but it's yet another defensive tool that Guardians are losing and shares a slot with a near mandatory movement break.

 

Level 50:

Unyielding Justice - I really like this utility on live, gives you another tool to use at longer ranges and combos well with Blade Burst

Battlefield Command - I always take this on live. This passive should become a baseline passive for the Guardian.

Defiance - generate focus when CCd

The main choice here is between unyielding justice and battlefield command for me. Normally I'd take all of them for PvP. The Guardian's mobility is so sorely lacking without blade blitz and guardian leap that I don't think I can not take battlefield command in most circumstances.

 

Level 60:

Stalwart Defense - 60% AoE reduction for dps when using challenging call, 30% damage reduction when stunned for tanks. Only way to negate AoE damage or stun damage and is mandatory on many PvE fights.

War Master - prevents you from immediately getting knocked away after using your one single mobility ability. Practically mandatory in PvP. Dispatch on any health target after leaping is nice for an opener but that's it.

Second Wind - more stun breaks and stun breaking heals you - practically mandatory in PvP, though maybe a bit less so with some combat styles losing CC.

Most players will take Stalwart Defense for PvE, but in PvP all of them are valuable - especially stun resistance for a tank. We don't know how stun breakers are changing so Second Wind might become irrelevant later down the line.

 

Level 70:

  • Enure vs Saber Reflect vs Blade Blitz (DPS)
  • Awe vs Saber Reflect vs Blade Blitz (Tank)

Both Tank and DPS specs are forced to choose between both their burst mitigation abilities and for DPS, their only other mobility option as a full melee class. Saber reflect absolutely should be baseline, it is a keystone of the Guardian and Juggernaut combat styles and is one of their most well known abilities. Currently, DPS Guardians have access to one singular mobility tool and no root breaks baseline. This forces you to take blade blitz in PvP just to keep up with ranged classes (which for some reason seem to be gaining even more slows). Tanks will most likely take saber reflect depending on how NPC fights are rebalanced.

 

Level 80:

Purifying Sweep - mandatory for DPS classes for armour break. Mostly irrelevant for tank.

Gather strength - deal more damage after being slowed. If only there was a way to actually reach the target so that you can make use of this passive.

Through Peace - currently a mandatory utility for tanks in all instances and all disciplines in PvP.

PVPers will always take Through Peace due to lacking baseline survivability tools. For PvE, tanks will take Through Peace and DPS will take purifying sweep. Gather Strength is mostly irrelevant due to the power of both other passives, it's far too niche and Guardians will be worrying more about staying alive than trying to hit their target for more damage. I'd much rather Guardians have ways to break movement impairing effects and resist them, than gain extra damage from those same effects.

 

 

Essentially, Saber Reflect should be baseline. Force Leap and Guardian Leap should be merged, Guardian and Juggernaut need more tools to deal with movement impairing effects baseline. Right now when hit by any amount of slows, you have one movement tool baseline and no way to deal with slows. Whereas on live you could use DCDs to partially negate this, on the PTS you are just a sitting duck. Combat focus breaking movement impairing effects is nice, but when you consider that ranged classes such as a sorcerer can target you with a movement impairing effect with nearly every one of their abilities (at least for lightning), breaking one of those effects every 30-40 seconds does nothing.

 

I'll briefly cover each discipline only passive below:

 

Focus

 

Level 15 options are all fine.

  • Focused Burst dealing AoE is great - but the radius feels a little small when dealing with more spaced out opponents.
  • I'd like to see focusing strike be altered to become a sustained damage ability morph - less base damage but it deals force damage over 6 seconds as a DoT.
  • Zenith causing concentrated slice to auto crit would be better for consistent burst than the current 20% crit chance increase for 6 seconds - but maybe that would be a bit too much.

 

Level 30:

  • Zealous annihilation would be better if it also made your next zealous leap free
  • Zealous defense is frankly useless. At level 80 I have 367,000 health and this gives me a 9,000 health shield - a level 75 mob breaks through this in one basic attack.
  • Zealous discovery isn't actually needed in the base rotation due to the way you alternate combat focus and force exhaustion for their buffs. It does however in theory lead to a potential rotation involving syn's second amulet whereby you completely exclude force exhaustion from your rotation in exchange for more frequent concentrated slices. Of course, I can't

test this because I don't know if this tactical is staying in the game and parses don't currently work.

 

 

Vigilance

 

Level 15:

  • Branding burst sounds fun but doesn't work so I can't test it.
  • Cauterizing brand allows for much more frequent blade barrages but again, no clue what is happening to the hemophilic slash tactical.
  • Branding smite increasing dot crit chance is very good for sustain (though currently it doesn't work)

 

Level 30:

  • Burning Pommel is great for keeping a more energy positive rotation
  • Force Skewer is basically a PvP only ability but is very useful considering the lack of mobility for Guardians
  • Burning offensive - flat damage increase + more crit chance means that the PvE choice here is between Burning Pommel for those who struggle to keep high levels of focus while burning offensive offers a flat damage gain overall.

 

 

 

Defense

 

Level 15:

  • Marked Assault - sounds great in theory, warding strike deals 20% more damage vs a taunted target. But...
  • Antagonizing Assault - warding strike deals 20% more damage - just like marked assault but without the taunted target requirement. This should have immediately been noticed but not only is Antagonizing Assault a strict improvement in terms of base damage as it lacks the taunt requirement, it also has a 20% higher crit chance and creates 20% more threat. Why would you ever take marked assault?? There has to be a typo or missing description somewhere, I don't understand how marked assault is supposed to contest with something so clearly superior in every way.
  • Defensive assault - oh and this exists too, for 2% more damage reduction if you really want it. If it instead gave a buff to your group it could be interesting.

 

Level 30:

  • Crushing Mark - guardian slash deals 50% more damage to taunted targets - because skank tanks aren't broken enough in PvP. As I mentioned earlier, while testing vs a 3million hp champion enemy, I took less damage and dealt more damage as Defense in dps gear than vigilance or focus - and I hadn't even optimised my gear to account for the free 10% accuracy. This is too much and only serves to push more players into playing dps tanks.
  • Guardian Focus - no clue how much damage this negates and if it's anything like zealous defense, it won't be worth taking.
  • Critical Slash - higher crit chance and reduced cooldown whenever it crits. Best used for AoE scenarios but otherwise will likely be outdone by crushing mark.

 

 

My overall conclusion is that Defense feels like a Guardian. Vigilance and Focus feel like low mobility budget versions of Defense since they seem to do about the same amount of damage with half the survivability.

The animations for Focus make you feel like a zealous warrior jumping into the thick of a battle, but despite your heavy armour and brutal attacks you are easily slowed and shut down.

Vigilance still feels too bursty to me. Focus is supposed to be the burst spec, yet vigilance is capable of reaching the same high damage crit hits, auto crit blade storms etc while also having better sustained damage.

All disciplines need better mobility tools, whether this be through merging force leap and guardian leap, granting more means to deal with movement impairing effects or other. Fighting mobs that slow you every other attack and being forced to walk slowly between them because you've used your only mobility ability as a melee only class sucks. This will only get worse in PvP where ranged classes are gaining even more means through which to slow and root despite their inherent ranged advantage.

Saber reflect should be baseline.

 

We also still need confirmation on what is happening with threat and why some classes are receiving AoE reduction passives / ability tree choices, why other classes have no threat drops etc. There doesn't appear to be any consistency between classes for how threat drops and threat in general is going to function as of 7.0.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

I am a returning player with little to no knowledge of the game. Last I played I had bought the full game and no DLC was available. So coming back recently has been rather exciting -- lots of fresh changes from what I had remembered, and had a blast leveling up a Jedi Guardian (Vigilance).

 

Now that I have done some testing and reading, I am struggling to overlook the ability changes. Since I just somewhat learned my class now that ive leveled up, I have found that I have used nearly every ability to some extent and enjoyed that flexibility. This reminds me of the older WOW days where you had skills that you can choose when and where you want to use them -- if at all.

 

I really like to use my dash ability to combo with force leap, or to simply get the hell out of a boss about to drop a big AOE -- or to rush to grab a Kotol so my friend doesn't die. I also really like Enure for when all my other cooldowns are down and I need to stay up just a moment more to get to a kotal station or to survive a nasty aoe/cc combo and get the time to get out. I also love saber reflect because holy crap it's super handy and awesome, especially for a directed assault!

 

Having to choose between these really makes me feel bad. As I just learned how or when to use these abilities properly... and hearing that that I will now have to choose 1 of them is discouraging.

 

I am happy Saber throw has made a return to baseline... but DPS Guardian in 7.0 sounds off-putting as of current. Like I may be missing something here but without aoe taunt 60%aoe DR -- you have exactly 1 cooldown for defense. How does that make sense as a GAURDIAN??? Like lets say I take the dash cause I love the dash. Now I have no Enure or Saber Reflect. The 60%aoeDR was removed, and it looks like the 5% damage reduction passive is missing -- which leaves exactly 1 defensive on a long cooldown. I get my dash for some mobility but lose any ability to be/feel like a GAURDIAN.

 

Like I said I don't know much, have only scratched the surface on most content but almost exclusively leveled through Flashpoints (Group Content) for reference. I hope you can come up with a solution as I don't know enough to really offer... but from a "new" players' point of view -- you are cutting up my class and removing abilities I consider give the Guardian the FEEL of the guardian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Tank's wouldn't be so bad, nor would several other classes if:

 

It's why I suggested after THINKING it through a lot more the last week or two if they ONLY had revised their plan:

 

"I wished they limited choice to two (2) of the former 3 abilities" --dependant upon which Combat Style you choose!

 

Then focused on PvP Skill Tree &/or PvP specific Tactical Kit's seperate from PvE (only) ones.

 

Will they consider it, who knows... ...just most of the former 3 were often well established for the whole Class. *sigh*

╘ so really have to learn things over again, for several class based on Combat style.

 

Just seems like Vigilance & Focus loose out far more than Defence; yet hopefully they address this and several other earlier points raised by several.

Edited by Strathkin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear SWTOR team,

 

I wanted to give you an updated feedback on Jedi Guardians, as you provided the overview of abilities in the tree.

 

Overall, it was a quite pleasing experience, a lot better than at the beginning where we had restrictions on utility choices. I found that the overall rotation/flow of the class seems to be preserved.

 

While you need to make some choices between the cooldowns, I found that you can upgrade some of the abilities (like Warding Strike and Guardian Slash) to give you more defense, which I thought were pretty nice.

 

I found that combat focus is actually different for different specs! It was very cool to see it having additional effects like doing damage to the taunted enemies (so you can use it along with your AoE taunt), or doing burst damage to everyone around, or blowing up the burn/bleed effects of everyone around you. It adds a lot of flavor to Jedi Guardians and makes it even more enjoyable.

 

I commend you for this improvement!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Yes, it feels very much like a guardian. I tried all 3 specs and was satisfied with the results. The reset of saber throw and force leap being baseline was a very welcome change.

 

2. Nothing really out of place. The combat focus changes will take some getting used to, but I like the different effects for each spec.

 

3. It seems as effective as it is now. There are some choices to be made, but they’re fair in my opinion.

 

4. I enjoy the changes. They of course will take more getting used to and experience but they are promising.

 

5. No particular concerns, but thanks for the hard work

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

A: Yes for the available content to test. Defense definitely does, with decent damage/threat and survivability. I still haven't gotten a chance to test in PvP.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

A: Not for Vig/Focus, both rotations are solid and have excellent focus management. Defense however, there is, particularly in long boss fights in PvE.

The initial rotation is solid, but as the fight progresses, the lack of cooldown reduction on the core abilities leaves you with a window of 2 to 3 GCDs simply spamming Slash until the core abilities come out of CD, particularly in longer boss fights.

This is already an issue in the live version. PvP is not a problem because the rotation is much more flexible and reactive, Guardian Leap and Guard swapping are added to the rotation so there's less room for fillers.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

A: It's good overall, at least for the current available content, all 3 specs get the job done, however, I don't like how dependent on Focused Defense all 3 specs are for survivability. I am also not accounting for possible class-imbalances as it will depend on parses and more specific data for all classes to have a conclusion.

The options for root breakers are a bit too limited for a melee class, always offered as a choice in the tree competing with other good perks. This makes me a bit concerned for PvP, but I will need to try it myself before I make up my mind.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

A: I enjoy a lot. Guardian has been my main class for 9 years now and I stuck with it through the good and the bad over the years. Though I do have to say that the Defense rotation issues mentioned above has made the spec a tad boring to play in PvE.

I'm excited with the possibilities that this new system brings for the future.

 

If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

A: I have several notes, I will go into details about the Defense spec since it's the one I use the most, but will add some general notes that are relevant to all 3 specs and the new system as a whole.

 

General notes:

-The new ability paths are a great way to give some glimpse of customization. While they don't change the core of the specs, they can add some flavor to the gameplay and the flexibility to pick relevant utilities according to the situation, but it will require some work to fine tune.

-I would like to see more specialization/uniqueness for each discipline amongst the available choices instead of the same utilities for all disciplines (like the Combat Focus option). The way they are now the first 4 tiers of choices are unique (for the most part) to each discipline, but the last 3 tiers are almost the same for all 3 specs.

-I am totally fine with having to make difficult choices between certain abilities (like the ones at level 70), however, this type of hard choice needs to be consistent across all classes. Operatives and Sorcerers for instance don't get nearly the same difficulty in the choices they have available.

 

Defense:

-Not a fan of Guardian Leap being a spec in, although being mostly a PvP skill, it's a core PvP skill and I don't want to have to pick between a core skill and some potentially useful passive.

-I've been on and off in the past couple of years so I didn't follow closely the development of the PvP scene. I saw that many players are concerned about tanks running in DPS gear outperforming Vig/Focus. I personally don't think it does, the Defense discipline does not have the same damage output potential as Focus or Vigilance, but given the high amount of complaints I saw, I don't discard that there might be some truth to it.

I don't want Defense Guardians back to where they were in 2.0 and 3.0 either, where we were severely behind the other 2 tanks in pretty much every content. Guardians are in a good spot in PvP now and I want it to stay where they are, but mitigation gear should be a clear choice to a Defense Guardian and maybe the current system doesn't make this obvious to the point where dps gear might be viable.

I ran some tests in the Spirit of Vengeance flashpoint against the first boss Gorga Brak on PTS to measure TTK in 4 different specs.

 

The run was done with the current 328 gear available at the fleet, no stat optimization, Solo Mode, with no companion nor support droid (which I believe isn't even available for SoV) and no healing from the kolto tanks.

 

These were my results:

Defense in Tank gear: 1'39"

Defense in DPS gear (shield OH): 1'14"

Vigilance: 0'50"

Focus: 0'53"

ALL four fights needed Focused Defense. As Defense in tank gear, Saber Ward, Warding Call and mitigation stats were not enough for FD to be unnecessary and I could easily do the same battle using only FD.

I did use Saber Reflect on all four scenarios.

 

Defense in DPS gear is virtually at the exact middle between tank gear and DPS spec, with a difference of 25 and 24 seconds respectively.

I would like to see this difference a bit closer to the time it takes to kill in tank gear.

 

 

Ability paths:

 

 

Right column passives:

All I expected to see is there, nothing to add or remove.

 

Level 15:

Marked Assault (In Dev): Warding Strike deals 20% more damage to taunted targets (base dmg increased for now)

Antagonizing Assault: Increases Dmg, Crit Chance and Threat of Warding Strike

Defensive Assault (In Dev): Warding Strike increases Dmg Reduction by 2%

As already described in a previous post, Marked Assault is clearly flat out inferior to Antagonizing Assault and is being reviewed apparently.

Defensive Assault gives a very small buff and flat damage reduction potentially incentivizes the usage of DPS gear.

 

Level 20:

Cyclone Slash (Active Skill): Very situational, mostly for trauma spreading in PvP

Blade Burst: Conal AoE for Blade Storm + slow - Cone angle very small (basically only enemies standing behind the target), does not replace Freezing Force satisfactorily

Kinetic Barrage: Blade Barrage deals additional Force kinetic damage - potentially good for additional threat+dmg (depending on how much it adds)

 

Level 30:

Crushing Mark (in Dev - currently works on all targets): Guardian Slash deals additional damage to taunted targets - Hard to tell atm. Does it mean it's dealing increased damage to any targets regardless of taunt? Is the current base damage how it's gonna look like when it's implemented?)

Guardian Focus: Guardian Slash grants force barrier to allies in range - Good overall but now the ability requires a target whereas the current Utility in live grants this on Challenging Call (looking at Kephess from TFB)

Critical Slash: Increases crit chance of Guardian Slash and reduces CD by 1 sec for each target critically hit - Meh for PvE: with the current tedious rotation it's nice to see CD reduction, but not here. Most boss fights will be a single target with no AoE spread, reducing by 1s max and nothing on non-crits.

Bad for PvP: in arenas it may reduce the CD by 4 seconds if crits all 4 opponents, even more in regs if you potentially hit more targets, further incentivizing the usage of DPS gear. I would rather see CD reductions more meaningful and based off defensive stats.

 

Level 35:

Marked Focus: Dealing direct damage to taunted targets generates 1 focus - Ok for boss fights with cast skills that may not hit you every GCD.

Guardian Leap (active skill): Bad. Skill is mainly for PvP but it's a core PvP ability. Alternatively could be to spec into additional damage reduction, CD reduction and root breaker like it's currently in live. I really think GLeap should be base line for Defense.

Critical Defense: Reduces CD of CF on crit hits + purge movement impairing. The would be go-to choice in this tier, but for currently sharing the same tier as Guardian Leap I could never pick this in PvP, where root breakers are essential.

 

Level 50:

Unyielding Justice: +Blade Storm range to 30m, -Dmg farther than 10m, +Force Push Damage allows Blade Storm full dmg at max range - Meh, feels like a DPS utility shoehorned into Tank spec

Defiance: Generates 4 focus when stunned - Arguably situational for PvP, mostly useless. Focus management is not a problem for any Guardian spec, I personally never took this utility. It could easily be merged with Stalwart Defense to become relevant.

Battlefield Command: Getting attacked reduces the CD of Force Leap - Situational, most of the time a tank wants to be close to the target and not jumping around. Helpful in specific encounters.

 

Level 60:

Stalwart Defense: -30% to dmg received while stunned - Crucial for a non-stealth class in PvP

War Master: Unremitting, Force Leap enables Dispatch on target of any health level - Unremitting is great. Dispatch on targets of any level is ok, especially considering the lack of abilities available for defense. Tooltip says it lasts for 4s but it lasts 15s.

Second Wind: Reduced CD of Resolute + 10% heal on Resolute

 

Level 70:

Awe (active skill): 6 seconds CC that breaks on damage

Saber Reflect (active skill): 5s reflect damage from ranged/force/tech attacks

Blade Blitz (active skill): Blitzes forward, increasing defense by 100% and dealing unremarkable damage. Purges movement impairing effects.

 

Both 60 and 70 choices are at the moment very unbalanced compared to other classes. For a non-stealth melee class, having to choose between Stalwart Defense and War Master hurts a lot.

 

Level 80:

Purifying Sweep: Applies slow to all targets hit by Force Sweep

Gather Strength: Whenever movement is impaired, adds 10% dmg increase to next ability that uses focus. Stacks up to 5. - Has been a staple for all 3 disciplines, I'd like to see it be more designed around Defense and leave as is for Vig/Focus.

Through Peace: Reduces CD of Focused Defense by 30s

 

I would expect that the choices at max level would be the most impactful, but these all are very weak for their level, exception being Through Peace (arguably).

Purifying Sweep is a weak passive for all 3 specs and could easily be merged into another more relevant utility. Definitely not a lvl 80 choice.

 

To sum up, Defense seems solid and viable as it currently is, but the choices in some tiers are not well balanced, some tiers have useless utilities while others have hard choices and even a core skill.

I would like to see a bit more meaningful CD reduction on core skills or the addition of a brand new skill.

If damage output is a concern, I would suggest toning down/removing some damage buffs and add a utility somewhere in the ability path that increases your damage based on your defense or shield chance or reducing your own flat damage reduction (putting more emphasis on the need of high mitigation values) for 2-3 GCDs.

Lore rant: Blade Barrage is an acrobatic attack and doesn't belong in Soresu.

 

 

Focus:

+I really like the addition of the bubble on Zealous Leap. Took me longer to need FD compared to Vigilance, but I wonder if it will be enough in PvP.

-Blade Burst (Blade Storm conal AoE very small angle)

+Focused Burst AoE is good and brings Focus back to high AoE damage potential, but renders Force Sweep useless to be used with the Clarity buff, making it a potentially good follow up to keep AoE pressure instead.

 

Vigilance:

-Seemingly squishier than Focus

+Sustained DPS seems to be at a good spot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still haven't gotten a chance to test in PvP.

 

You aren't missing out on much. It's as unplayable as everyone expected. Guardians and Sentinels are going to get absolutely annihilated if this goes live.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I've played Vigilance and Vengeance since a few months after launch, I love it so much I made a Jugg and a Guardian just to play it both sides.

 

I've joined the testing late, so I wasn't here for most of it, but I'm pleased to see that Intercede/Guardian Leap wasn't taken away from us after all. It's a very effective mobility tool and I use it often in both PvE and PvP, I even use it to get around in my own ship and in FPs when I'm lagging behind. I use it more for mundane utility than its actual intended purpose. It may not be a rotational ability, nor will it ever be, but it's an ability I have a special hotkey for just so I can reach it when I need it, and I often do need it.

 

I'll get to my criticism down below, but first, to answer your questions:

 

1) Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? I'll be honest, it feels far less like a Guardian. Why did I make a Guardian? To be a big tough bruiser of a woman with a laser sword. I consider our rugged survivability to be core to our class identity, and an extreme part of that is how good and numerous the DCDs are. Even though I play Vigilance DPS almost exclusively, none of the cool stuff there potentially is makes up for the fact that we're gonna have to pick between Saber Reflect, Enure, and Blade Rush. Mainly, I hate having to choose between Enure and Saber Reflect, but given some of the changes make Blade Rush more useful for positioning, I actually do miss Blade Rush too.

 

2) Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation? Oh yes! I wanted to try Blade Burst but every time I get into a big fight with a lot of weak enemies, I feel like using Cyclone Slash, so I reach for it... and it's gone! I keep making this mistake and I'm very upset that I have to spec into it because it's such a boring choice but such a needed one.

 

For another thing, the lack of Enure really hurts when I'm low and I'm waiting for Focused Defense to recharge. For yet another thing, Blade Rush would sure be useful to get in position quickly for Blade Burst, but I'm not giving up Saber Reflect for that.

 

The choice that makes Focused Defense generate no Focus unless you crit a Burn doesn't do NEARLY as much as you'd think since let's say it does even out somehow. When I'm using Combat Focus, I need Focus now, and giving that up causes more of a DPS loss than whatever I gain from critting my dots.

 

And for yet another thing, I'm sick to death of not being able to get Riposte off my hotbar because in the 1% of the time it's usable, it's better than using Slash, but I don't want to delay any of my abilities to use it, so I use them... and then its window closes and it's gone again. Please just merge it with Slash for DPS players, turn it into a timed buff that changes Slash's animation, because these abilities both serve the same niche for both Vigilance and Focus.

 

3) What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies? The lack of Enure and Awe makes it more likely I'm going to die in situations where I'd have been fine before -- surprise adds, more Elite enemies than I was expecting -- because I had all those tools at my disposal at the same time and needed them. This means making boring choices because they're practical even if they're not iconic. Several times, the lack of Cyclone Slash actually made a fight drag on too long because I was out of AoE abilities and needed to go around autoattacking everything that was at 1hp. Please don't make Cyclone Slash an optional ability.

 

4) How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class? If this goes live as is, I'm dreading this patch and I might quit again over these changes until our stuff gets put back. 6.0 felt so good, if a little too bloated with having to use Force Clarity to do proper DPS, and now it feels like we're taking major steps backward.

 

5) If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

 

Gladly.

 

Now on to the current elephant in the room: the fact that we have to choose if we want to keep many of our our old Defense Cooldowns (DCDs). I'm a Vigilance/Vengeance spec primarily, and I have both Sith and Jedi versions. I have been playing since launch, though I left in 2015 and came back about a month ago. 6.0 has been the happiest I've ever been with regards to mechanics and spec options. The only things I haven't gotten used to yet are using Blade Rush and Force Clarity, which I always forget I have, and I kinda wish we just got Unremitting/Unstoppable by default instead of having to pick it, but that's about it.

 

However, these new changes prune some healthy stuff from our builds that we use and need regularly and then make us forego some fun-looking things to get them back, which just feels like our old abilities are being held hostage and the only way to get them back is to give up the fun new things.

 

  • I'm kinda glad that Force Clarity is gone since it was an ability I would always forget about. It wasn't even cool enough to make me want more. But where did it go? Is it part of our base damage now? Either way, I'd rather leave this ability gone. It wasn't cool, it wasn't something you felt, it was just an obligation.
    -
  • The class buff becoming passive is slightly a bummer because I liked hitting newbies with it, but eh, I can live with everything being a passive now. Less likely to forget it.
    -
  • I'm so glad Freezing Force is gone. I hated that ability and I don't know a single person who liked it, it deserved to die...
    -
  • ...but I'm UNBEARABLY UPSET that Cyclone Slash is now a choice, because I keep reaching for it in every fight I get into against groups of enemies and it's GONE unless I picked it over Blade Burst.
     
    So if we want either of the other two cool NEW things, we need to give up our basic AoE Filler ability, and no, there's nothing that can do its job when it's what you need, not even Blade Burst or Branding Burst or Burning Focus, because those are all on cooldown abilities. No other reason needed. You can spec into all the AoE options you want, eventually you're going to need something low-cost to use for a bunch of 1hp adds that need to die this second while other things are on cooldown, especially when you're not in an optimized team, so this is a problem mainly for the majority of players. Are there Boss Fights where I don't need Cyclone Slash? I can't say, because if I'm taking Blade Burst, I probably would also like to have Cyclone Slash.
     
    Please don't make this basic class ability something you have to spec into. There is really nothing I would love to do more than use Blade Burst to set everything on fire while I approach to get in position to do Vigilant Thrust and finish them all off with Cyclone Slash, but that's literally been made impossible.
     
    Now if you make that a choice between the other things and the damage buff Cyclone Slash got, that's one thing. That I would prefer. I don't really expect Cyclone Slash to hit hard, it just needs to do its one job. In Vigilance especially, Cyclone Slash is useful for more things than Slash and Riposte put together, and it sounds VICIOUS when it hits a big group. Why would you take away one of my children?
     
    If we have to prune something, I would much rather give up Riposte or turn Riposte into a timed buff/animation change for Slash, since Riposte for tanks is off the GCD the way it was for all at launch, and that was a good use of it back in the day. It was extra DPS that didn't screw your rotation. Now though, the DPS specs see it as mainly just Slash But Better, it's a filler ability only used when nothing else would do, so it would just be a QoL change to join them into one ability. I only still have Riposte on my hotbar because it is technically better than Slash when you get to use it, rarely.
    -
  • Being forced to choose between having Saber Reflect, Enure, or Blade Rush feels like a huge nerf. That's two major DCDs of our choice we no longer have, and that does not feel very Guardian-like. Saber Reflect is a big part of our class identity. It's our Mace Windu vs Palpatine, it's our Obi Wan vs Dooku, it's been in all our cutscenes since before we even had the dang thing! It's iconic and you can't make me get rid of it! So that means I'm getting rid of Enure even though I also love it and also believe it's part of our class identity.
     
    Our DCDs in my eyes are the very thing we gave up dual wielding and doublesabers for, and I miss them when I play other classes. Enure is a part of our identity just like Saber Reflect. Now I won't get them at all! I can only pick one to keep at high level (when Enure used to be a low level ability!)
     
    If this was a choice between Enure and Blade Rush, there that's an easy choice: I'll pick Enure because I like cheating death and I hate how Blade Rush locks me into a straight line and only protects me for 1 global. I pretty much have to have it on my middle click because otherwise I can't turn the right way before I use it. Even so, I like having it on live because it'll get me out of a pinch when that's needed, so it'll still hurt. I can understand needing to make space on our hotbars, bc we DO need that, but removing major and important abilities is not how to do it, especially since the three are used for entirely different things, all of which can come up in the same fight, and there's no way to predict which one you'll need more when the need arises, but of the three, Saber Reflect might actually be the weakest, and that means we'd have to give up an iconic ability for practicality.
     
    It would be much better if we got to keep all three of them but choose which one gets buffed. Rather than picking Enure at all, it would be the Enure Cleanse. Rather than picking Saber Reflect, it would be making Saber Reflect last longer. Rather than picking Blade Rush, it would be "usable while immobilized and 10 sec shorter cooldown." Making a hard choice between which of your children you get to keep means I'm gonna take a third option and play the other games I've got on my to-do list until it gets reverted.
     
    If you would rather clear up hotbar space though, you could merge Enure's effects with Focused Defense. That's less control over when I get to pop the temp health, but it would not feel like a nerf, in fact it would feel like a buff to both abilities, and it clears up both of their biggest downsides, since FD is useless if you get killed by the next hit, and Enure will make you drop to 1 hp after the time's up unless the healers topped you off. FD might have twice the cooldown so that might seem like a nerf on paper, but Enure isn't really used on cooldown, it's used during the same moments that Focused Defense is: when you're low on HP and need a quick boost, and it would also mean less of FD's healing gets wasted by overheal, and you'd be tougher because of the damage reduction to boot.
     
    I'm sure this would step on some players' toes too, but it's better than losing the ability unless you give up Saber Reflect.
    -
  • Awe being turned into a pick power alongside DPS increasing abilities is also really tough. Awe is actually very useful in PvE as well as PvP, even if not Operations, and it might a be niche power that newer players forget they have, but if you're a skilled player, you know that a well-timed Awe can save you in a Heroic or a FP and it DOES feel great to use it during those clutch moments. That means you're gonna have to give up some nice options just because you need to keep Awe, and that sucks bc that's the only option that doesn't clear up hotbar space, and that one space has held the AoE stuns on all my classes' hotbars since I made these hotkeys. But heck, I'll do it! I'll give up those options to keep my AoE stun, I don't care. The other options are meh at best for me outside of the hardest content where Awe isn't useful anyway. Focus spec, though... they have to take the one option to put Singularity back on Combat Focus. Poor Focus. That's just a kick in the shins they didn't need. Singularity on CF should not be optional, it's key to their already-worse damage.
    -
  • Blade Burst (BB) is REALLY effective... but it doesn't feel cool. I'm sure the Sith scream option does feel marginally more cool, but BB doesn't even feel as cool as Cyclone Slash (CS) despite the former hitting MUCH harder, because Blade Storm has weak-sounding VFX in the first place, and there's no VFX to show you how or where it begins or ends, it's just "more numbers appear." However! I do know that Storm looks really cool as it travels, so just if you made that travel the whole length and width of the cone, it would not only look cooler, it would help us get used to the idea of how long its range is, bc I can't tell. It doesn't say, or indicate anything.
     
    Since it's a cone though, it's clunky and awkward to position for, bc to use it as part of an AoE rotation you'd have to position yourself in the opposite side as what you'd do for VT and CS, since VT and CS need you in the middle, and BB needs you on the far end, making it unreliable and not always possible to use it to maximum effectiveness, although BB wouldn't be as useful if it wasn't like that... and since it's SO STRONG, positioning for it is not optional in an AoE setting. That's going to require a movement speed buff or something else. Ironically, that would be a great offensive use for Blade Rush! Even more reason not to make that a pick-one choice.
    -
  • The level 50 choice is the kind of choices we should get. All of those are nice to have, but you can't really prove which one would be more useful. Battlefield Command is probably the strongest option in more situations, but I wouldn't miss the other two to take it.
    -
  • The level 80 choice on the other hand is not a choice. You have to take Purifying Sweep. Defense might consider Purifying Sweep optional bc all they get out of it is a Slow, but Vigilance and Focus will always need to take it. And where did Guardianship go? It just disappeared and isn't an option for any spec anymore. If you ask me, that should be one of the choices instead.
     
    The other two options are "nice to have but unreliable" - and having an AoE armor debuff on Sweep/Thrust is not optional, it should honestly be added to the ability by default in both DPS specs or else that's the only option you'll be allowed to have in any tier it's in.

 

Overall, the major problems with all this is that we're losing really good and fun abilities we've had since launch, and if the goal is to clean up the hotbars, there are better obvious choices to be made that don't have to result in the outright removal of those things from the game if you want to experience any of the new cool things.

 

Not to mention, some of these choices are hampered by one "not fun, but required" choice and two other "I would love it, but I can't get consistent results with that." The level 80 choice is one of these. The most infuriating thing is, I used to be able to pick all three of those, so now we're back to the 1.0 problem where we have all these fun choices you can't make because you can't give up something that's always useful.

 

I don't play Focus anymore but I played it during 1.0 for a spell, and it was so much mindless monkey brain fun even if it was sub-optimal in single target. I came back in 6.0 and tried to play it and went "oh... wow... this sucks." Now it's just annoying and unsatisfying and feels like it's lost its identity and it has too many buttons to push for all the weak stuff it does. If this spec needs anything, I'd say merge Riposte and Slash like the suggestion above, and/or get rid of Focused Burst and pack its damage back into Smash/Sweep again, and put the crazy fun sound effects and animation back when you hit one of those with all the buffs up. Right now it feels like a fully-powered crit Focus Sweep doesn't even hit as hard as baseline Vigilant Thrust, and that's just sad. I don't even have to do anything for VT to hit that hard, and it still gets to crit. I see more things trying to put the AoE back in Focus with Focus Blast and at that point, why use two separate abilities that share a cooldown? We've come full circle.

 

I'm kinda sad that of all the things to get a Smash/Sweep replacement way back when, the thing that got it wasn't Focus. It really feels like Vigilance is better at everything Focus used to be good at and it's better at its own things because Focus has no identity. This has been that way for a while. Focus' rotation is too confusing and has too many moving parts and buffs to keep track of or you screw the whole thing up, and yet, it's also the spec that uses the most filler spam. I have no suggestions but "put the big Smash back" but I'd at least like this spec to be that much silly fun again, however that happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

With the most recent set of changes, I think the guardian (and juggernaut) is finally getting into a good spot.

 

One of my only issues is with the Focus discipline, specifically how Combat Focus consumes all your focus if you have max focus to deal a burst of aoe damage. With the amount of focus you can potentially get, it can sometimes lead to situations where you accidentally burn all your focus when you really just want to get your autocrit proc. Love that it increases movement speed baseline at least for focus.

 

I briefly had a bug earlier where combat focus only had half its normal cooldown and wasn't draining focus at maximum focus - but after about 10 minutes it disappeared and I have been unable to reproduce it.

 

The shield from zealous defence is still not worth taking at all. 6k shield on a 276k hp character is insignificant.

 

So yeah, good work on the Guardian! Now for all the other combat styles :D

Edited by LordCamTheGreat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the most recent set of changes, I think the guardian (and juggernaut) is finally getting into a good spot.

 

One of my only issues is with the Focus discipline, specifically how Combat Focus consumes all your focus if you have max focus to deal a burst of aoe damage. With the amount of focus you can potentially get, it can sometimes lead to situations where you accidentally burn all your focus when you really just want to get your autocrit proc. Love that it increases movement speed baseline at least for focus.

 

I briefly had a bug earlier where combat focus only had half its normal cooldown and wasn't draining focus at maximum focus - but after about 10 minutes it disappeared and I have been unable to reproduce it.

 

The shield from zealous defence is still not worth taking at all. 6k shield on a 276k hp character is insignificant.

 

So yeah, good work on the Guardian! Now for all the other combat styles :D

 

I take it you haven't pvp'd with guardian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*** are you talking about? the changes made that will destroy the class are still implemented as they were when we started testing. Bioware literally erased Juggs/Guardian Dps from PVP with this nonesens...the worst part is- while we loose 2 very vital abilities, most other classes have to make choices which arent as impactfull in the slightest. Guardian allready has serious defensive issues in ranked as it is now and these clowns at bioware decide to make it even worse, while they decide as well to let the problematic classes pretty much keep all their stuff which makes them problematic in the first place. how can you justify giving mercs the option to not loose any dcds at all, keeping net, double rocket out and their pushback + being ranged on top of it, basically only loosing their stun and a mobiltiy tool and thinking that is fair compared to guardians?! Some goes for Operatives who needed a hard nerf since ages.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some ideas to fix this mess- if you make us decide between saber reflect, mad dash and enure, at least buff these abitilities some- for example- give mad dash two charges instead of one and lower the cd on it to 20 seconds instead of 35- that would bring it at least some in line with what other classes have- double rocket out on mercs, 2 godrolls on operatives, force speed on a 15 sec cd on sages, shadows etc...get rid of the damage dealt back being capped of saber reflect, making the 15% DR on enure basline for all specs not just tanks+ making it last 15 seconds instead of 10...maybe reduce the cd on saber ward to 90 seconds to compensate loosing two strong dcds would be helpfull as well. But making an allready weak class in PVP loosing two dcds while giving them nothing back to compensate for that loss and thinking the players will be okay with that is as delusional as it gets...and giving bioware some kind of positive feedback on this nonesense is even more delusional!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I take it you haven't pvp'd with guardian.

 

Frankly, I've given up completely on any sense of PvP balance at least until the PvP update next year.

PvP has gone downhill the past few expansions and the devs refuse to balance it separately to PvE, so there's no point giving feedback on it.

 

Maybe I should have been more clear and said that for PvE, Guardian feels a lot better. For PvP you will still be perma rooted, cc'd etc. until fundamental changes are made to PvP as a whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you are right-pvp is a hot mess allready and needs serious attention to fix some of the balance issues it has regardless of class. but we are talking about the guardian changes here and they will make the class unplayable in 7.0 aka make matters even worse....I mean if you need to trim some abilties-fine, but please make sure to do it right and composate for what is lost atleast some.some classes-guardians- can'T afford to loose any dcds without having the remaining ones being buffes finally. our defs are outbalanced as it is allready, taking two away doesn't solve anything....a good example is enure aka the worst defensive cd in the game.they should've brought that one up to par years ago, but still don't do it now when they got a golden chance to finally do it. rework it finally if you take others away from us. blade blitz-another good example- surely a solid escape/mini def skill, BUT it is on a 35 sec cooldown with only 1 charge, ops got their roll which is even better on a 8 sec cd with 2 charges + being able to stealth out to disengage on top of it.Tha t ain't balance bioware that is ******** favoring certain classes again and again. your job is not making sure that your fav classes are playable, your job is making sure every class/spec is playable by everyone in every content and being competitve by doing so!!!!!! get that allready or be unemployed in a few months. we don't need to play your game, you need US to play your game!!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...