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Vet's edge stacks in gods


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KIlling the NIM community!

 

This is an awful change! Bioware needs to return the stacks, even 15 would be okay- I know a lot of elitist NIM raiders will say oh its such a great challenge. But this change takes NIM back to a place where only a very very small percentage of the games population can do it and that just Isn't fair! Content should be accessible to those who are trying to impove and progress. YES NIM should be hard but my guilds raid teams went from progging last bosses to not being able to kill 2/5 TFB overnight- it just isnt fair to community and it saddens me to see bioware taking a step in the wrong direction on the Nightmare difficulty.

 

I went from a SM scrub to a scrappy HM raider then into NIM prog, back to HM cause I wasnt ready then back to NIM, in 5.0 I got SNV timer, EC timer 4/5 TFB+Survivals and Monolith HM, the tuning of NIM was great in 5.0 even with 248 or 242 gear though a bit harder than Id have liked would have been okay this is just INSANITY mode.

 

I hope they add back the stacks or at least some of them, hell make a way for groups to remove the stacks if they want a challenge, perhaps remove them in Gods as that is the most recent content so hardcore raiders can get the challenge they want, (NIM duxn should serve as this as well when it drops) But please bioware this change will shut many NIM guild out of the community and will kill raiding making it something only the top 1% can accomplish and I very much dont wish to see that return.

 

BRING BACK THE STACK!

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KIlling the NIM community!

 

This is an awful change! Bioware needs to return the stacks, even 15 would be okay- I know a lot of elitist NIM raiders will say oh its such a great challenge. But this change takes NIM back to a place where only a very very small percentage of the games population can do it and that just Isn't fair! Content should be accessible to those who are trying to impove and progress. YES NIM should be hard but my guilds raid teams went from progging last bosses to not being able to kill 2/5 TFB overnight- it just isnt fair to community and it saddens me to see bioware taking a step in the wrong direction on the Nightmare difficulty.

 

I went from a SM scrub to a scrappy HM raider then into NIM prog, back to HM cause I wasnt ready then back to NIM, in 5.0 I got SNV timer, EC timer 4/5 TFB+Survivals and Monolith HM, the tuning of NIM was great in 5.0 even with 248 or 242 gear though a bit harder than Id have liked would have been okay this is just INSANITY mode.

 

I hope they add back the stacks or at least some of them, hell make a way for groups to remove the stacks if they want a challenge, perhaps remove them in Gods as that is the most recent content so hardcore raiders can get the challenge they want, (NIM duxn should serve as this as well when it drops) But please bioware this change will shut many NIM guild out of the community and will kill raiding making it something only the top 1% can accomplish and I very much dont wish to see that return.

 

BRING BACK THE STACK!

 

No offense, but have you thought that maybe your group aren’t up to NiM full clear standards right now and should get more practice in? It’s the hardest difficulty for a reason. It’s meant to be cleared by only the 1%. It’s not suppose to be fair. It’s liking asking Blizzard to make Mythic raids as hard as LFR. NiM for like 3 years has been glorified VM with no dps or heal checks whatsoever. Now it’s slightly harder and people complain. It’s still easy just not Uber easy.

Edited by FerkWork
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KIlling the NIM community!

 

This is an awful change! Bioware needs to return the stacks, even 15 would be okay- I know a lot of elitist NIM raiders will say oh its such a great challenge. But this change takes NIM back to a place where only a very very small percentage of the games population can do it and that just Isn't fair! Content should be accessible to those who are trying to impove and progress. YES NIM should be hard but my guilds raid teams went from progging last bosses to not being able to kill 2/5 TFB overnight- it just isnt fair to community and it saddens me to see bioware taking a step in the wrong direction on the Nightmare difficulty.

 

I went from a SM scrub to a scrappy HM raider then into NIM prog, back to HM cause I wasnt ready then back to NIM, in 5.0 I got SNV timer, EC timer 4/5 TFB+Survivals and Monolith HM, the tuning of NIM was great in 5.0 even with 248 or 242 gear though a bit harder than Id have liked would have been okay this is just INSANITY mode.

 

I hope they add back the stacks or at least some of them, hell make a way for groups to remove the stacks if they want a challenge, perhaps remove them in Gods as that is the most recent content so hardcore raiders can get the challenge they want, (NIM duxn should serve as this as well when it drops) But please bioware this change will shut many NIM guild out of the community and will kill raiding making it something only the top 1% can accomplish and I very much dont wish to see that return.

 

BRING BACK THE STACK!

 

I disagree, the removal of veteran stacks is a step in the right direction for this game to provide a wider variety of content for its large player base, just like there are players who likes to do and are capable of running mainly storymode there are players on the other side of the spectrum that likes to do and are capable of running Nightmare content in its current form. Is there a difficulty increase in old nightmare with the removal of Veteran stacks, without a doubt, the DPS requirements have been slightly increased, the DTPS on tanks has been increased, putting more pressure on tanks to use their cooldowns correctly and healers to prioritise healing better instead of just chasing numbers.

 

There are lots of different operations and bosses that you can do on Nightmare and they vary in terms of difficulty, perhaps a group with a bit low DPS, healers that aren't experienced or tanks that haven't really spent any energy figuring out mechanic and just stand still should start with the easier bosses/ops and try to improve with time and then enter the more difficult ones? I think that a lot of the misconceptions about what Nightmare content is supposed to be like comes from the fact that for the last ~year we have been playing with 258 gear in content scaled for 242 as well as now in 6.0 been at a point where DPS are doing 25% more damage per second than the encounter requires, making most DPS checks irrelevant. Add to that how most tanks run mostly DPS gear as the DTPS for some reason was significantly reduced in the early part of 6.0 (until now I guess) and it's quite easy to understand why people think that content is suddenly incredibly hard.

 

To speak plainly, groups running Nightmare for the last year have gotten used to either being significantly overgeared or doing an incredibly under tuned content, it might feel terrible now but work on the encounters. Start looking at what you can do to improve in terms of tactics, are your tanks dying, what happens, what damage did they take before death, which cooldown where they using, how much healing did they get before they died etc. etc. There are lots of tools, in particular in starparse that many groups simply don't use because there hasn't been a need to.

 

tldr: if you are used to being in full 258 gear in content scaled for 242, you are going to face difficulties

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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^^^ Both of these replies come from the 1% of the community the other 99% has been fighting against for years

 

I agree NIM may be slightly and I mean SLIGHTLY under-tuned in terms of DPS checks and mechanics but this is a SLIGHT under-tuning. OPS should be relevant but not something only 1% of raiders should be able to do. Maybe 10% of groups is a good target to shoot for. If you disagree ask yourself why you want to be the only one able to do it? Why dont you want the community to grow and have a game where people have a sense of accomplishment? FINE- You can be the only ones able to do NIM gods or NIM duxn- but dont lorde EC and TFB over people who started playing LONG after those raids even came out. In the story Lord Praven says "The Jedi's obsession with my peoples extermination must end." And so too must end the elitists obsession with lording years old achievements over those who want to enter the NIM community only to be greeted with toxicity and closed mindedness.

 

The structure of the NIM community and elitism is a topic for a separate post but sufficed to say wanting to shut other players out of NIM can only be driven by self interest. Sure add 15 stacks or make them removable but dont shut out entire groups of players be it individuals, teams, guilds or whatever scale it is from a good portion of your game that they have been loving experiencing. NIM raiders must be a .1% of the population and the eletist NIM raiders this will restrict full NIM clears to is a 1% of THAT .1%

 

For too long has this tiny group held far too much power over the game, the last 2 years have gone to great lengths to weaken that hold and open more parts of SWTOR to the masses and I urge Bioware to continue this trend. Even if NIMs needed to be buffed THIS IN NOT THE RIGHT SOLUTION TO REMOVE ALL THE STACKS.

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Sorry but again I disagree, the way you argue would not only remove the challenge from Nightmares, but it would also make the difficulty the same as a hard mode operation in terms of DPS and HPS requirements, which would simply make it boring. I think part of the beauty of the content in swtor is that there is such a variety of content depending on what type of player you are, your experience and what type of things you like to do, solo, in a smaller flashpoint/warzone group or an operation group.

 

The game needs a variety of content that stretches towards both ends of the spectrum, not just the part of the spectrum that you like hanging out on, that would reduce that variety if the content, which I don't think is a reasonable request to make. Sure, you can call it elitism or whatever fits your narrative or echo chamber, but honestly, I think if you just calm down and try to think about the situation rationally you will find the flaws in your argument. There are good aspects that you bring up and I am sure the developers are thinking about how to bridge the gaps between players of different capabilities, one thing that could be an option would be to have slightly different scaling with entry-level bosses being far easier than the end bosses in operations. Perhaps such an approach could help groups and players such as yours with learning and improving as a group while working towards the end goal?

 

I think it's sad and a big tragic that you are trying to make this into a conflict between different types of players and ridicule veterans of this game, perhaps it's your way of thinking but I think that such an attitude actually prevents your point from coming across. I hope you keep this in mind for your future posts, in particular, if you are meant to represent the guides which you are an officer of, trying to create conflicts and drama seems a bit over the top even if this is a topic that you feel strongly about.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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For me, the removal makes no sense not from the point of difficulty, but from the point of gearing.

We have much less health now, probably something like 236-242? item level. However the Mastery, Power, Endurance and Health are still capped as they were before. We have no way of adjusting our stats. My jugg tank cannot sacrifice mastery to get more endurance (and health) like I could in 5.x. My sorc healer cannot run mastery/power stim or augments or crystals to increase healing output. No idea about dpses, as I always end up healing or tanking, but I guess there could be some specs where - after reaching certain point of crit - it was better to stack mastery.

The stacks should either stay (and receive some fine tuning, I think it would be ok if the 30 stacks gave like 15-20k less health than before, with tanks being around 150k and dpses around 130k health), or they should be fully removed including the caps on m/p/e/h. Which would basically mean that the opses would be rescaled to 75, as there is probably no other way around it.

 

For me, I would even go as far as keeping the stacks in the old nims (up to DP) even if it makes those operations a bit easier than they were many years back, but Gods should imo be fully rescaled to 75. The reasoning is that the years old opses with scaling would serve as a sort of training ground for "new" unscaled opses - Gods and Dxun - and will keep many teams/guilds entertained (and paying subscriptions). I understand that it is in human nature to hinder others ("We had it hard before, so why should anyone else have it easier!") and in other mmo I used to play I felt the same, but I have realized later that no one is impressed by some 4 years old raid/ops/trial achievement in serious raiding community, it is always a point of pride to complete the newest hardest content (and ideally first on the server!). And by making old content more accessible, more players will play it, more players will get better and when someone has to leave your super elite raiding team for real life reasons, you will be able to replace them by someone. This point is often forgotten. When your player base is not in millions on each server, having content that less than 1% players can complete (and for gods/dxun I would go even lower, like 0.1% at best) brings a danger that there will be too few people that would be able to form a team to run such a content. Aligning raiding time for at least 2-3 days a week for 8 ppl with correct roles and having some people available as a backup is not an easy task, and if half of the current nim raiders will suddenly "not be good enough" to raid, well... you might find that there is no nim raiding community at all in a few months... and no one wants that...

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Imo, the stacks should be returned asap.

If this was an intended change it was incredibly shortsighted. Sure, a low number of people may enjoy it for a while "finally a challenge again, yay" but in the long term this is hurting both the game and the community.

Whats the total number of players that will be able to consistently clear timed runs, Gods and Dxun ? 200? 300?

It simply does not make any sense economically to develop content for such a small portion group.

If you want to see more veteran flashpointesque content in the future, sure go ahead and keep going in this direction.

 

If the stacks stay gone as they are now I predict we will see the following happpen:

"True" Nightmare raiders clear the content in a couple of weeks and are bored again.

Dxun NiM comes out and the above repeats.

A large portion of previous Nightmare raiders ignore the "advice" of "git gud" and simply stop or leave alltogether.

 

All I had the chance to do since yesterday's ninja nerf was a bit of TfB and yes, dps, heals and hp have gone down significantly. From my point of view it was still manageable. I dont see my team brining in any external people to teach them and evaluate as new members in the future without the stacks though.

The step up from Hm to the new NiM without stacks is just too big for a lot of people.

 

Personally I think there should be a middleground. Give an opt out of Vet stacks to people who want a harder challenge but dont force it on everyone - even more so without actually asking the community beforehand, trying it on PTS or even acknowledging it in the Patch notes.

Edited by MJSCHNEIDER
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The problem in swtor is the same as before, there is just not enough content. The problem with the operations is that many people that are around for years know these operations from inside out. These people have beaten them when they were launched, when there were nerfed, scaled, bugged etc. basically beat them from all sides. We had many issues like reflect, lockout sale, NiM crystals etc etc. For these people these operations have become irrelevant eventhough most of them still run and enjoy them (what else is there to do? :D ).

 

Due to the many changes the game is going through its quite hard for the Devs to deal with the relevancy of these operations. Its easy to make a new ops to the current level cap, gear cap, abilities of classes, yet its hard to implement these to the old operations. Many mechanics have been rented useless in the boss encounters due to new abilities added or new set bonuses (well, that is not that much).

 

I have to agree with the minority here that the operations should be hard. They should be hard as they were before, when they were current content. The players now cannot imagine what the raiders went through back then to be able to beat the bosses. I think they should work on it, that will only benefit them as they will find out that they still have reserves in their game play.

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I disagree, the removal of veteran stacks is a step in the right direction for this game to provide a wider variety of content for its large player base

 

and thats where you are wrong.

 

i mean, i didnt see the 6.1 NiM yet, so i dont wanna complain about its difficulty.

but there are two huge problems i see here:

first, IF it is realy that hard as people say now, you HAVE to adjust VM and SM aswell.

the game will be in an unhealthy state if its skill curve is a flat line untill NiM and goes 89° upwards from there.

in 1.0 and 2.0 where i last played and did progress raids, the content was "hard" as well, but atleast SM prepared you for VM and VM prepared you for NiM. it was the same in the current state of the game, just easier over all, untill yesterday.

theres no skill requirement in SM at all to prepare you for VM, so people already struggle to make the next step if they dont have any exp from other MMOs, but it was still "ok".

from VM to NiM, the step was larger as well, but if you are motivated you could do it as well. if the reports are correct, the gap between VM and NiM is an EFing canyon now.

people who cleared VM, no mether if it was 5.0 or 6.0 will get hard stucked when they hit NiM while looking for more content to prog. and even worse: there is nobody left to teach them. because everybody able to clear the 6.1 NiM will be busy for quiet a while now, and only a few groups wanna risk to bring in new unexperienced people in content they are clearing for 6 years now. and for those people willing to learn, there wont be much places left to do that.

it would take new groups years to progress through the new (old) NiM with 8 unexperienced players. content which took progression guilds 4-8 months to clear when it was released. you expect new groups to go through the process and clear all these NiMs one after another in that difficulty. how should anybody be able to catch up?

if zwirni wouldnt had uploaded some helpful talkthroughs for GODs NiM, there would be zero guides for that OP to this day. hell there arent even useful Scyva or Izax VM guides out there, but zwirnis. and some of you guys even dared to flame him for that. how do you think people will catch up in the progress in the future?

 

bioware once made the step to make the whole game easier (if it was the right step, is a completly diffrent topic), they cant go back from there without cutting off a large group of players. thats how it works.

in the current state you are cutting of the progression and learning process of the community just to bring back some old memories for some borred NiM veterans. you guys even are cutting off your own "trainees", people you might need in case someone of your group will stop playing at some point in the future.

 

that brings me to the second point:

if rumors are correct, these changes were silently made because some of these "veterans" with good connections to the devs literaly begged for it.

not only is it ridiculous to set the scale of difficulty of the whole game according to the best group(s) in the game. it scares me that some players might have the power to decide every players fade, just because THEY are borred.

so how many groups were able to clear gods w/o stacks? is ONE correct?

ONE group in the whole game was able to clear gods in its current state, content they already cleared in 5.10?

how many made the TR w/o stacks? nobody right?

(correct me if i´m wrong)

and thats the reference point bioware should adjust the games difficulty now? are you guys serious?

and even worse: no patch notes, no forum announcement, no open discussion......its just there to please not 1%, but more like 0,001% of the community. that cant be right.

Edited by mrphstar
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but if u haven't done nim, how do you know?

 

comon sense mate, try it.

 

if there are stacks still in VM and SM, but not in NiM anymore, and the skill curve was fine when all had the stacks, how do you think the skill curve looks right now?

 

please dont let me talk to you like i gotta explain math to a first grader just to prove your point, you arent that dumb.

 

your point was, that removing stacks opens up a wider variety of content for all people, i disagree and explained why and totaly reasonable without having to see the actual difficulty of 6.1 NiM.

 

i mean, how can s.o. even argue that making content harder does open it up for more players, its the complete opposite.

Edited by mrphstar
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If this was an intended change it was incredibly shortsighted. Sure, a low number of people may enjoy it for a while "finally a challenge again, yay" but in the long term this is hurting both the game and the community.

[...]

 

If the stacks stay gone as they are now I predict we will see the following happpen:

"True" Nightmare raiders clear the content in a couple of weeks and are bored again.

Dxun NiM comes out and the above repeats.

A large portion of previous Nightmare raiders ignore the "advice" of "git gud" and simply stop or leave alltogether.

 

All I had the chance to do since yesterday's ninja nerf was a bit of TfB and yes, dps, heals and hp have gone down significantly. From my point of view it was still manageable. I dont see my team brining in any external people to teach them and evaluate as new members in the future without the stacks though.

The step up from Hm to the new NiM without stacks is just too big for a lot of people.

Personally I think there should be a middleground. Give an opt out of Vet stacks to people who want a harder challenge but dont force it on everyone - even more so without actually asking the community beforehand, trying it on PTS or even acknowledging it in the Patch notes.

 

Personally I somehow like the removal of the stacks, but I can understand why ppl argueing against the removal of stacks. In conclusion I have to agree with the quoted lines above. Make a removeable option for 30 or 15 stacks.

With this there is a good enter-point for good hm-experienced ppl. So called "elitists" have their challange and make cool "non-stack" kill vids to show how good they are. They even get the opportunity to make sales quiet easy for ppl who never get into nim... everyone is happy... clap along if you feel like a room without a roof

 

PS: If the removal of stacks is kept they should remove stack for hm as well

Edited by NepomukLP
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I have to agree with the minority here that the operations should be hard. They should be hard as they were before, when they were current content. The players now cannot imagine what the raiders went through back then to be able to beat the bosses. I think they should work on it, that will only benefit them as they will find out that they still have reserves in their game play.

 

NiM should be hard, but the bolded is nonsense

 

No one cares, nor should they care, how hard old content used to be or what "the raiders went through back then". That's completely irrelevant and I'm sure you don't apply that same thought to leveling, gear grinding nor want to go back to using only the abilities available to you from "back then". If you do, petition for a "Classic SWTOR" and see how long that lasts or how far it goes. SWTOR is the only MMO I know of that continues to recycle old endgame content, probably due to the fact it doesn't release enough new content. All that should matter is new content.

 

People keep bringing up "Mythic" raiding in WoW but I can't imagine Mythic players complaining about last tiers content, or the content from over 5 years ago, being too easy. They really don't care because all that matters to them is the current tier of content - if people want to go farm the old content for mounts or gear, some of those old Mythics can even be solo'd, let them. If you've already done it, and you did it when it was "hard", why do you care if its easy now if there's new content for you to focus on?

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