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My first Ranked PvP season in ANY MMO, any big brain advice walking into it?

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My first Ranked PvP season in ANY MMO, any big brain advice walking into it?

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
05.07.2021 , 11:38 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by xdjinn View Post
Today (first day I decided to try ranked) I almost did it, but I'll cool off and decide if this game has anything to offer me other than grief on a global scale, .
i love that you jumped into ranked for the first time, got your clock cleaned, and then declared the format unplayable. there's a huge learning curve from regs to ranked.

dps jugg are arguably the least viable specs in yolos, but they're far from the only one. most classes only have one viable spec. immortal jugg is BROKEN. I'm sorry that spec bores you. arsenal bores me.

mara is finesse vis-a-vis jugg dps, but it's perfectly viable in ranked. you have a slew of defenses and abilities to circumvent CC. but from previous pb interactions with you, I'd say you feel you know them all and they're not good enough, or it's too many buttons to push, and you're squishy af. I know that not to be the case, but I'm not going to debate it with you. as far as getting out of combat, every map has a few places where you can run and hide to heal up. it's ranked, so the competition isn't stupid af. they will hunt you down and cut you off if they can. it's a team game. if your team cannot pressure the others so that they cannot afford to hunt you down, then your team failed. if you pop a cd at the wrong time, you failed. maras have a lot of options, but it's easy to make the wrong one at a given time.

I'm going to assume you know to purge with combat stealth and pop transcend immediately. you also have to know where the nearest los hiding place is and calculate what you need to do to get there. but...I've been in ranked on an off for years. it's perfectly doable. maras do it all the time.

I cringe when you complain about mara being under-powered or in need of "help" on this board. literal. visceral. cringe.

a quick check of the leader board shows a mara far and away above everyone else with 2 more maras/sents in the top 10. going further, the top 10 scores for all classes are in the 1500s. in fact, the lowest class leader scores appear to be for...ops and then mercs. that's right, those annoying, over-used, lolrollers have one of the lowest top scores of any class in s14.

by the end of last season, well, by the time I stopped playing last season, yolos were dominated by stealth. not all the time, but there were times at night when there were 3 stealth on each team. after a couple games like that (win or lose), it was enough. time to go do something else. mind you, the same was true of mercs with net. there's nothing anyone can do about 3 nets or a couple of warriors with 6s CC immunity and obfuscate pounding on you. it is, in the end, a team game.

as you surmised, yolos is mostly about survival. but being able to dps while practicing survival is important (I never did master that last part).

there's much to be desired from the matchmaking for solos. it's pretty good about role balancing, but it's bad about class stacking, and it doesn't make any sort of account for class viability (it just looks at one's elo). honestly, I'm not sure how much effort BW can or should put into the system, given how comparatively small the community is - it's a niche of a niche. but yeah, obviously stricter adherence to role balance and significant consideration to class stacking would be welcomed.
Krack

septru's Avatar


septru
05.07.2021 , 11:58 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by xdjinn View Post
snip
I'll repeat what others said and probably reaffirm a lot of what you observed from playing.

Meta is important in solo ranked. Marauders, operatives, assassins, mercs, sorcs are all strong choices. Rage jugg is not. What that said, rage jugg is possible. Just difficult. You need to be very good. I don't recommend it for new players.

Don't get discouraged at toxicity. It's a part of the competition. And honestly if someone said "practice in regs" that is more tame than toxic. Next time someone rails at you ask them what you could have done better. For instance I tell people to practice in regs when they are missing a basic and foundational skill like awareness and knowledge of class DCDs.
-Prum

septru's Avatar


septru
05.08.2021 , 12:00 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
in fact, the lowest class leader scores appear to be for...ops and then mercs. that's right, those annoying, over-used, lolrollers have one of the lowest top scores of any class in s14.
ya **** those top3 opers. they're all ****.
-Prum

HaoZhao's Avatar


HaoZhao
05.08.2021 , 06:42 AM | #14
Have the right gear. 306 isn't an end onto itself. You need to make sure that your mods, augments, and stim are all making you reach all of your targets for every stat. Don't be the healer who queues in with the wrong alacrity or queues in with 1,500 accuracy or something.

As a healer, you will be occasionally on teams where three players run 100m in opposite directions and all three still expect you to keep them healed to full. If one of them dies, you will be blamed. Ignore toxic weirdos.

Before you step into ranked, make sure you have mastered regs. When you start having those long games that end in 14 million heals or somewhere around there, you're probably ready.

Cleanse CC

While we're at it, cleanse lots of other things, too.

For sorcs, use phase walk to troll. On maps with multiple levels, when you're under siege, you drop down and force the enemies to follow you. Then you phase walk back up and they spend time trying to get back to you while you heal to full.

You have time to talk to your team before each round. Use it and tell them what you are going to do.

For sorcs, against teams with mercs, you have to resist the urge to stunbreak for anything other than net, unless it's an absolute emergency. If the enemies have a merc, the strategy is always to beat on the sage and then net you to disable barrier/phase walk. If you don't have stunbreak at this time, it's probably the end.

For mercs, reactive shield is your bread and butter. Pop it whenever you hit white bar and you can't stopped because of interrupt immunity. For sorcs, same but with polarity shift.

For operatives, re-roll to a healer with real defensives

xdjinn's Avatar


xdjinn
05.08.2021 , 07:17 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
i love that you jumped into ranked for the first time, got your clock cleaned, and then declared the format unplayable. there's a huge learning curve from regs to ranked.

dps jugg are arguably the least viable specs in yolos, but they're far from the only one. most classes only have one viable spec. immortal jugg is BROKEN. I'm sorry that spec bores you. arsenal bores me.

mara is finesse vis-a-vis jugg dps, but it's perfectly viable in ranked. you have a slew of defenses and abilities to circumvent CC. but from previous pb interactions with you, I'd say you feel you know them all and they're not good enough, or it's too many buttons to push, and you're squishy af. I know that not to be the case, but I'm not going to debate it with you. as far as getting out of combat, every map has a few places where you can run and hide to heal up. it's ranked, so the competition isn't stupid af. they will hunt you down and cut you off if they can. it's a team game. if your team cannot pressure the others so that they cannot afford to hunt you down, then your team failed. if you pop a cd at the wrong time, you failed. maras have a lot of options, but it's easy to make the wrong one at a given time.

I'm going to assume you know to purge with combat stealth and pop transcend immediately. you also have to know where the nearest los hiding place is and calculate what you need to do to get there. but...I've been in ranked on an off for years. it's perfectly doable. maras do it all the time.

I cringe when you complain about mara being under-powered or in need of "help" on this board. literal. visceral. cringe.

a quick check of the leader board shows a mara far and away above everyone else with 2 more maras/sents in the top 10. going further, the top 10 scores for all classes are in the 1500s. in fact, the lowest class leader scores appear to be for...ops and then mercs. that's right, those annoying, over-used, lolrollers have one of the lowest top scores of any class in s14.

by the end of last season, well, by the time I stopped playing last season, yolos were dominated by stealth. not all the time, but there were times at night when there were 3 stealth on each team. after a couple games like that (win or lose), it was enough. time to go do something else. mind you, the same was true of mercs with net. there's nothing anyone can do about 3 nets or a couple of warriors with 6s CC immunity and obfuscate pounding on you. it is, in the end, a team game.

as you surmised, yolos is mostly about survival. but being able to dps while practicing survival is important (I never did master that last part).

there's much to be desired from the matchmaking for solos. it's pretty good about role balancing, but it's bad about class stacking, and it doesn't make any sort of account for class viability (it just looks at one's elo). honestly, I'm not sure how much effort BW can or should put into the system, given how comparatively small the community is - it's a niche of a niche. but yeah, obviously stricter adherence to role balance and significant consideration to class stacking would be welcomed.
I know what you are talking about, problem is from the 11 matches I did yesterday with my Mara, I had 3 with team work, won one of those, and they were fun. The rest was just people cursing each other and doing their own thing. Maybe I was just unlucky, but that sums up to what I said to one of the guys in there: Solo feels like a gamble, period.

Ty for the input, and no, I don't think I know it all, but you and others constantly assume I don't understand LOS, timing, DCDs, etc. I understand them perfectly, and with the amount of practice I've gotten with Rage (managing very high DPS and very low deaths in regs with it) Fury wasn't hard to perform well, in fact I hardly got any complaints about me during these matches, but the whole finger pointing is just terrifyingly disturbing, I was a CS pro player, 90% of the games where ppl behaved like that was a certain loss, saw it a lot after I quit playing as pro in random MM on CSGO on Global bracket. That behavior is infantile and it causes losses.

On the part you agree with me there, I think one of the most bonkers thing that happens is how they managed to match up 2 - 3 or even 4 stealthers against a team with a jugg, 2 maras and a sorc, it's just ludicrous.

Btw, another problem I've been facing is serious desync, sometimes abilities will refuse to pop, sometimes I'll get 200k dmg from 1 frame to the next with no chance neither to see the incoming attacks nor react, same happens on attacks quite often, I assume I'm the only one targeting someone on 40%- hp, suddenly the guy suffers insta death. Those are serious issues.

I was very pssd yesterday as you can tell, many matches, 70%+ of them with dumb matchmaking, anyone would be furious, specially when you are still learning the ropes. The only mistake I made was not lower graphic settings I'd say.

Quote:
a quick check of the leader board shows a mara far and away above everyone else with 2 more maras/sents in the top 10. going further, the top 10 scores for all classes are in the 1500s. in fact, the lowest class leader scores appear to be for...ops and then mercs. that's right, those annoying, over-used, lolrollers have one of the lowest top scores of any class in s14.
You have to remember that classes and ease of use talk louder on lower brackets, the more noobs u are playing (me included) the less likely ppl are to shut down these classes. Yes I know how to shut-down a pesky OP, but on a Mara I have very little CC to do that properly, and I'm usually also getting focused by them, which doesn't help. If heavy CCers in my team fail to CC at all, I'm toast.

Quote: Originally Posted by septru View Post
I'll repeat what others said and probably reaffirm a lot of what you observed from playing.

Meta is important in solo ranked. Marauders, operatives, assassins, mercs, sorcs are all strong choices. Rage jugg is not. What that said, rage jugg is possible. Just difficult. You need to be very good. I don't recommend it for new players.

Don't get discouraged at toxicity. It's a part of the competition. And honestly if someone said "practice in regs" that is more tame than toxic. Next time someone rails at you ask them what you could have done better. For instance I tell people to practice in regs when they are missing a basic and foundational skill like awareness and knowledge of class DCDs.
Thank you for the input, and understanding of my raging vent. I do get that you need to learn your spec well in regs before jumping into Ranked, but that I already did, so it is insulting when you are trying your best on a class that is so easily shut down and depends on your team helping you out. (talking about Rage Jugg).
I do outperform Fury on dps on my Jugg, but surviving is the problem. Saber Ward sucks on Rage, too short, we have no DR DCD at all, so u have to make due with what you get, and in the end Saber Ward becomes your escape skill, you can't use it mid-combat or you'll waste the only thing that allows you to break off. So you have Enr Def, and then u have to survive it's downtime, pretty hard to pull off considering you get zero utility for doing so. Nimble master "works", but for it to be reliable Ward should last at least 5 seconds more or the speed buff from Nimble would need at least 20% more speed. In the end Rage Jugg in Solo Ranked is about watching the Marathon, not quite a PvP

Rage Jugg Soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmc21V-zBq0

Btw, I did try to pull off Immortal yestedary on one match, but I can't, I don't like how it plays on Arenas (underwhelming DPS from me) and I still need to learn how to guard swap properly, in a way, it's way too much information to account for, I'd need to make a massive party window to properly keep an eye on teams' HP too, it's bloody awful. The only way for me to perform well on PvP, apparently, is to have a healer in the team, otherwise it's always this little hell. (happened to, all matches where I had a healer I've managed to play really well)
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HaoZhao's Avatar


HaoZhao
05.08.2021 , 09:21 AM | #16
The highest parsing spec in the game is Annihilation. The second highest parsing spec is Fury. If you do more DPS as Rage than Fury, it's because you were doing something wrong as Fury (vulkk guides are trash BTW).

Rage being bad in PVP isn't your fault but you do have to accept it. In 6.0, everything got juiced up to the extreme but Rage was one of the specs that just got left behind. It's a bottom tier spec, all of the way down there with Hatred. The main issue here is that BioWare has completely forgotten what Rage spec is supposed to be. Immortal is supposed to be the defensive spec. Vengeance is supposed to be the offensive spec. Rage is supposed to be the balance between offence and defence but it is actually one of the squishiest specs in the entire game. Shi-cho form is supposed to be the balanced form. Rage needs significant defence buffs and BioWare has ignored all criticisms about this issue for over half a decade.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
05.08.2021 , 11:16 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by HaoZhao View Post
Rage being bad in PVP isn't your fault but you do have to accept it. In 6.0, everything got juiced up to the extreme but Rage was one of the specs that just got left behind. It's a bottom tier spec, all of the way down there with Hatred. The main issue here is that BioWare has completely forgotten what Rage spec is supposed to be. Immortal is supposed to be the defensive spec. Vengeance is supposed to be the offensive spec. Rage is supposed to be the balance between offence and defence but it is actually one of the squishiest specs in the entire game. Shi-cho form is supposed to be the balanced form. Rage needs significant defence buffs and BioWare has ignored all criticisms about this issue for over half a decade.
eh. juggs are tricky. rage juggs (and skank tanks) run amuck in regs. honestly, playing rage is the 2nd easiest dps in the game to playing arsenal (which is prolly why I have as many juggs as mercs. every time I rolled on a new server before mergers, the first toons I started were mercs, PTs, and juggs!).

anyway...there isn't anything actually wrong with rage. making them tankier is a huge mistake, imo (as in a new dcd). the problem they have is being controlled and lack of escapes. personally, I hate the idea of giving juggs an escape. it's just completely antithetical to the class, imo. if they could do their damage before they expire, they'd be fine. kinda like PT with no guard/heals to prop them up (although not the broken burst).
Krack

septru's Avatar


septru
05.08.2021 , 11:34 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by xdjinn View Post
Thank you for the input, and understanding of my raging vent. I do get that you need to learn your spec well in regs before jumping into Ranked, but that I already did, so it is insulting when you are trying your best on a class that is so easily shut down and depends on your team helping you out. (talking about Rage Jugg).
I do outperform Fury on dps on my Jugg, but surviving is the problem. Saber Ward sucks on Rage, too short, we have no DR DCD at all, so u have to make due with what you get, and in the end Saber Ward becomes your escape skill, you can't use it mid-combat or you'll waste the only thing that allows you to break off. So you have Enr Def, and then u have to survive it's downtime, pretty hard to pull off considering you get zero utility for doing so. Nimble master "works", but for it to be reliable Ward should last at least 5 seconds more or the speed buff from Nimble would need at least 20% more speed. In the end Rage Jugg in Solo Ranked is about watching the Marathon, not quite a PvP
What server do you play on? If you play on SF there is a chance I might have seen you.

It seems like, from what you are describing, you are doing everything right. Nimble Master is the way to go in a lot of the games. But since dps jugg is so incredibly weak, one small mistake on any of the small details might get you killed. So it's hard to say what you could be doing better without seeing you play.
-Prum

xdjinn's Avatar


xdjinn
05.08.2021 , 11:39 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by HaoZhao View Post
The highest parsing spec in the game is Annihilation. The second highest parsing spec is Fury. If you do more DPS as Rage than Fury, it's because you were doing something wrong as Fury (vulkk guides are trash BTW).

Rage being bad in PVP isn't your fault but you do have to accept it. In 6.0, everything got juiced up to the extreme but Rage was one of the specs that just got left behind. It's a bottom tier spec, all of the way down there with Hatred. The main issue here is that BioWare has completely forgotten what Rage spec is supposed to be. Immortal is supposed to be the defensive spec. Vengeance is supposed to be the offensive spec. Rage is supposed to be the balance between offence and defence but it is actually one of the squishiest specs in the entire game. Shi-cho form is supposed to be the balanced form. Rage needs significant defence buffs and BioWare has ignored all criticisms about this issue for over half a decade.
I think you are onto something there... Could work.

Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
eh. juggs are tricky. rage juggs (and skank tanks) run amuck in regs. honestly, playing rage is the 2nd easiest dps in the game to playing arsenal (which is prolly why I have as many juggs as mercs. every time I rolled on a new server before mergers, the first toons I started were mercs, PTs, and juggs!).

anyway...there isn't anything actually wrong with rage. making them tankier is a huge mistake, imo (as in a new dcd). the problem they have is being controlled and lack of escapes. personally, I hate the idea of giving juggs an escape. it's just completely antithetical to the class, imo. if they could do their damage before they expire, they'd be fine. kinda like PT with no guard/heals to prop them up (although not the broken burst).
that would make Veng pointless wouldn't it? What Hao Zhao said actually makes a lot of sense, in Rage Jugg I feel that role whne PvEing, I can off-tank, and if I'm playing right I can surpass dmg from most DPS specs, to a point where I keep stealing boss aggro constantly.
In PvP, your suggestion would either make Rage burst dmg absurd (if they buff it properly, instead of doing 50k crits I'd be doing 70k+ crits), that means that without DCD or healing I'd be killing sorcs with 3 abilities (no skill in that at all, just brainless button mashing). If they instead add defensives, either by increasing escape-ability or by buffing DCDs, or even by adding an extra DCD, Jugg would fill it's role. You call it broken because you are probably stagnated into the current META, comfortable with it, but in a way that's how it was supposed to go, though if BW gives Rage attention, they'd need to fix all specs so to speak, like putting Madness back into the game along Carnage (of the ones I know of), I bet there are more for others classes that are completely out of the game, but those two are the ones I've experienced first hand.

Maybe Zhao's suggestion is the only way, and as always it would create general outrage. I don't see Rage as "easy" spec, I'd argue Conc Ops are much easier (I know for i have one, but i strongly hate playing it), Sorcs are easier too (also have one). Rage is easier than Immortal? Absolutely, but than again it's not the easiest class to perform well.... In regs I manage to get toe to toe total dmg with Fury maras when all other Rage juggs I've seen playing can't do squat.

My impression is that if, and only IF, I play Group Ranked, I'd probably do very well, maybe even be considered good, because all matches that I got the full trio (tank+healer+2dps) I've done a good job.

Quote: Originally Posted by septru View Post
What server do you play on? If you play on SF there is a chance I might have seen you.

It seems like, from what you are describing, you are doing everything right. Nimble Master is the way to go in a lot of the games. But since dps jugg is so incredibly weak, one small mistake on any of the small details might get you killed. So it's hard to say what you could be doing better without seeing you play.
That was me certainly. Same toon name as my forum tag (with some weirdness due to "name being already used). Any help is appreciated, although I'm very close to giving up on ranked altogether. I don't want to play a class that I don't feel it's playstyle pleases me, tried that (as I've said, with Conc OP, and Lightning Sorc, also tried Merc and Assassin), neither of those classes talk to me well, can I learn them? Absolutely! Problem lies with their playstyles, which I strongly dislike.
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foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
05.08.2021 , 11:55 AM | #20
the thematic differences were:
  1. burst (rage) vs. dot (veng)
  2. aoe (rage) vs. st (veng, but I guess spread was possible and better than IO lul)

however, rage/fury was tweaked to be more effective ST once the smash monkey era came to an end.

afaik, veng has always been tankier than rage b/c they weren't bursty. they had more cc immunity for the same reason. rage got a huge boost when BW opened up the skills trees for all 3 specs to each other.
Krack