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7.0 putting out Fear not Hope.


TheVoyant

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On average the majority of players I talk to, minus the occasional optimist, are worried about December.

 

We can get into the specifics, look at things like "is it too early to tell what the changes are" or the track record of past updates.

 

But it doesn't change the one factor that seems to be near consensus for the larger portion of the player base. People are worried about the expansion, not excited. Anytime you have a situation like this in business it should encourage you to relook at the situation. It means currently you're out of sync with your market and don't understand their wants.

 

It quite honestly wouldn't be that hard to obtain what the Devs are aiming for and make the player base happy... But the ego has to be checked at the door. Trying to rewrite the way the game plays simply bc of Dev desire is extremely unwise.

 

I think we've all pretty much beat this point into the ground, and they're probably going to do whatever they want I know...

 

But you guys don't have to risk pushing so many people away from the game to achieve your goals. Just have to start working cohesively versus trying to force people to understand your reasonings like current agenda seems to be.

 

At the end of it, I genuinely hope the devs learn from past mistakes of themselves and prior companies. Be nice to see you guys change course instead of being hellbent on running into this Iceberg. ;)

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Apparently not deep enough, which is why we got yet another doom and gloom thread.

 

I thought this thread might try and discuss 7.0 overall and the problems and concerns with it beyond just Combat Styles but no it's just another thread about Combat Styles.

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Not Me I'm very excited. I love the Agent story but I don't care for Sniper or Operative play style. Now I can play Agent with the Merc power set and dual pistols. I think that is great. Same for Trooper I have 2 troopers one of each Tech class. I can not stand either playstyle. Guess what now I can make myself a Trooper That dual welds pistols. Or any other Tech Class.

This is not the Star Wars Galaxies NGE, this is not changing how combat works. It's letting you pick a weapon style with your class is all. At least all I see for now. I'm not reading into it too hard yet.

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Not Me I'm very excited. I love the Agent story but I don't care for Sniper or Operative play style. Now I can play Agent with the Merc power set and dual pistols. I think that is great. Same for Trooper I have 2 troopers one of each Tech class. I can not stand either playstyle. Guess what now I can make myself a Trooper That dual welds pistols. Or any other Tech Class.

This is not the Star Wars Galaxies NGE, this is not changing how combat works. It's letting you pick a weapon style with your class is all. At least all I see for now. I'm not reading into it too hard yet.

 

Sure you can potentially play a Trooper that uses the entire Bounty Hunter ability-set, or a Bounty Hunter that uses the Trooper ability-set, but to achieve this they are going to cut/gate away 4-6 abilities from every class.

Very bad if you actually know how/when to use certain utilities or just enjoy the freedom of trying different types of rotations.

 

Its like oh wow I'm really just the Bounty Hunter spec with the trooper story. Death-from-above in the trooper story wow so much new choice.

There has to be a way they could untie class-set from story-choice without pruning our abilities.

Edited by ssupercid
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They don't have a true plan they just got the green light to announce an expansion to capture interest at a time where there is heavy player migration in the MMO genre... The announcement was vague because they are still figuring out what they can scrape together.
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Bah, yet another thread mouthing off... this is getting really old.

 

Most of those i talk to are really interested in it. I for one am really excited for it.

 

It's like the PVP (and lesser extent OP) crowd have Stockholm Syndrome or something. They've gotten so used to a bloated and clunky system we've had for so long, they've grown attached to it.

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Change always begets fear, because you have to change your habits and there is a chance of experiencing loss. And, of course, yet again it will engender an exodus of a certain amount of people because they don't care for these changes.

 

The reason I can be very critical and "loud" and that sense is that it seems like unless there is an outrage, BW aren't going to listen. They say they want constructive criticism, and that's certainly true, but if it isn't accompanied by outrage, they probably won't make those changes, because why would they then?

 

Companies have no intrinsic values afaic. You have to tell them to be good or better or they will just do what people accept, just within the laws. They have little moral compass outside the law...especially when it comes to EA, Activision and others. It's the publishers really that are the problem because their customers are not us, but the shareholders.

 

So EA sees players as an annoyance and when a game doesn't sell they blame the players and not themselves. That means for BW that they can also not operate freely. Perhaps that's why Casey Hudson left BW again and set up his own studio, but I digress...

 

Now, there is also history and people fear that history repeating. BW have done a lot of things that didn't work for too many people and this has hurt the game. In a way they really need a win, but they seem satisfied to stay within the margins of cost vs revenue. If they can maximize profits with fewer players then that's ok, but they're not going for good content in good amounts. That would cost too much and I suspect EA won't give them the budget and why would they?

 

And then there's BW's faulty communication. For example, they now laid out what they are going for more specifically so that explains the context of these changes and so it's easier to understand where they're going with this and that makes accepting these changes easier. So why didn't they do this before they went live with the PTS? Apparently they want the outrage or they haven't learned from their previous errors. You pick, but it seems to me that explaining it first before letting people play with it is the better way.

Edited by Tsillah
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I believe in the democratization of fear. I believe in 7.0.

 

Most of those i talk to are really interested in it. I for one am really excited for it.

 

It's like the PVP (and lesser extent OP) crowd have Stockholm Syndrome or something. They've gotten so used to a bloated and clunky system we've had for so long, they've grown attached to it.

 

I share the same sentiment.

Edited by ForfiniteStories
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Bah, yet another thread mouthing off... this is getting really old.

 

Most of those i talk to are really interested in it. I for one am really excited for it.

 

It's like the PVP (and lesser extent OP) crowd have Stockholm Syndrome or something. They've gotten so used to a bloated and clunky system we've had for so long, they've grown attached to it.

 

We've "gotten used to" the game as it was given to us in 2011. The number of keys to bind hasn't become significantly worse over the last decade unless you think 2 or 3 more keys to bind on top of the 25+ we started with is a lot.

 

BW isn't making the game "less clunky" with 7.0, they're just reducing the number of abilities we're going to have access to at any given time. In every other game I've played that's called a nerf. A lot of the people who like the idea of these changes haven't seen what's going to happen to the characters they actually play. Wow did the same thing SWTOR is doing now and they regretted it. The patch that started it is still remembered as the worst the game has ever received.

 

If you want to start playing 7.0 now you're free to: just take your current character and unbind half the keys. Let me know when you start having fun with that.

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We've "gotten used to" the game as it was given to us in 2011.

 

The game or more specifically its combat shouldn't still essentially be what it was in 2011 though.

 

You talk about how the patch WoW did in which it pruned abilities was poorly received but prior that patch WoW at least evolved and changed it's combat before they ever did any pruning. The same can't really be said for SWTOR.

 

SWTOR's combat needs some kind of overhaul. It's needed it for a while now. I'm not saying Combat Styles are the right way to go but they need to do something more than the nothing they've mostly been doing with the combat.

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The game or more specifically its combat shouldn't still essentially be what it was in 2011 though.

 

You talk about how the patch WoW did in which it pruned abilities was poorly received but prior that patch WoW at least evolved and changed it's combat before they ever did any pruning. The same can't really be said for SWTOR.

 

SWTOR's combat needs some kind of overhaul. It's needed it for a while now. I'm not saying Combat Styles are the right way to go but they need to do something more than the nothing they've mostly been doing with the combat.

 

Combat styles isn't the issue. Neither are loadouts. We don't have details on those yet, we weren't working with those on test.

 

They aren't overhauling or changing combat, at least not so far as I've heard mention. I'd be at least interested in seeing an overhaul of guardians and classes in general. I've changed specializations for expansions in the past a couple times without complaining. This is not any of that. This is someone with scissors looking at my character sheet and deciding arbitrarily "one character, one 'load out', shouldn't be able to do all of that".

Edited by Savej
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  • 2 weeks later...

I got so bored with Galatic Seasons I actually went to try out WOW. And yes some of the veterans are upset with Shadowlands. They apparently had to create two classic versions of WOW. I picked a bad time to play WOW, the publisher is in big legal trouble with accusations being hurled at them from former female staff.

 

Guild Wars 2 was created because the developers fell in love with their villains, the charr and as a result they turned the lore upside down and inside out. I hate GW2 as much as I loved the original. Apparently not enough of uswho feel that way around though. Not just the story the mechanics are terrible.

Edited by RameiArashi
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Bah, yet another thread mouthing off... this is getting really old.

 

Most of those i talk to are really interested in it. I for one am really excited for it.

 

It's like the PVP (and lesser extent OP) crowd have Stockholm Syndrome or something. They've gotten so used to a bloated and clunky system we've had for so long, they've grown attached to it.

 

You have spoken, but maybe you need to say it again because some people were not listening.

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I’ve done the testing and if you play pvp or OPs regularly, you can see the issues on the PTS.

 

It’s not the abilities being culled that’s the issue, it’s the type of abilities and Bioware’s approach to it. If you’ve not tested and only read what others have written or you don’t play harder content, you will never truely understand why this is a terrible idea in its current form.

 

I suggest all the arm chair analysts download the PTS and actually try and do some harder content than what Bioware is suggesting you test on. Then maybe you’ll understand better why so many of us are nervous or even fearful of these changes that will potentially kill the game we love so much.

 

If you do go and test, try doing the hardest content you can personally do solo on the live servers. Ie, for me it’s about doing veteran and mastermode flash points or uprisings solo. Once’s you’ve seen how totally impossible it is to do, you’ll have a better understanding on why this is going to be a big problem because Bioware don’t have the resources to rebalance every bit of pve combat in the game around these changes. They will not have the time to fix the game properly before the expansion and that will make people leave.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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I have tested the sentinel (combat) and even though there are a few abilities I would like baseline, most of the changes were fine for my playstyle. I am not a pvp player, never have and never will be, so the changes I tested were fine. I did a variety of things but I also went and updated my gear to what it is in live to give it an accurate test for my playstyle.

 

I did not have any problmes with killing the npc, even though doc was at rank 1 when he is actually at rank 50 on live, so I figured if I can survive and kill what I need to and do the activities I normally do, then there is a big chance it is not as bad as some are claiming and even some of those that are not happy, have actually stated they did not test it, they just read the changes and just assume how bad it was.

 

As I said, there are a few abilities, that might need to be baseline but there are also some abilities people claim everyone uses but yet there are some I rarely use so for me it was not a big deal. And before anyone gets bent out of shape and tells me to learn how to play or something in that regard, I know how to play and have done some operations, but I don't do pickup groups.

Edited by casirabit
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I have tested the sentinel (combat) and even though there are a few abilities I would like baseline, most of the changes were fine for my playstyle. I am not a pvp player, never have and never will be, so the changes I tested were fine. I did a variety of things but I also went and updated my gear to what it is in live to give it an accurate test for my playstyle.

 

I did not have any problmes with killing the npc, even though doc was at rank 1 when he is actually at rank 50 on live, so I figured if I can survive and kill what I need to and do the activities I normally do, then there is a big chance it is not as bad as some are claiming and even some of those that are not happy, have actually stated they did not test it, they just read the changes and just assume how bad it was.

 

As I said, there are a few abilities, that might need to be baseline but there are also some abilities people claim everyone uses but yet there are some I rarely use so for me it was not a big deal. And before anyone gets bent out of shape and tells me to learn how to play or something in that regard, I know how to play and have done some operations, but I don't do pickup groups.

 

It’s good that you tested. Too many people with opinions here are only reading and not testing it themselves.

 

Can I ask what content you tested on the pts?

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Apparently not deep enough, which is why we got yet another doom and gloom thread.

 

By this reasoning there should never be any public mass demonstrations either. "Meh, someone already protested about <insert topic>, I'll just keep quiet."

 

Does one person/topic protesting change anything? Unlikely. Does a bunch of people/topics protesting change anything? Still unlikely, but at least there's a better chance compared to when everyone just keeps quiet.

 

The latter at least conveys a bigger outcry IMO, compared to a single topic which gets easily buried.

 

As far as I'm concerned there's a new topic protesting (or supporting) these changes, every day, even if they're repetitive.

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By this reasoning there should never be any public mass demonstrations either. "Meh, someone already protested about <insert topic>, I'll just keep quiet."

 

Does one person/topic protesting change anything? Unlikely. Does a bunch of people/topics protesting change anything? Still unlikely, but at least there's a better chance compared to when everyone just keeps quiet.

 

The latter at least conveys a bigger outcry IMO, compared to a single topic which gets easily buried.

 

As far as I'm concerned there's a new topic protesting (or supporting) these changes, every day, even if they're repetitive.

 

They'll listen to our feedback and make some tweaks at this stage, maybe. But it doesn't matter how much you post. The only thing that will bring about significant change will be cancelled subscriptions after it drops.

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By this reasoning there should never be any public mass demonstrations either. "Meh, someone already protested about <insert topic>, I'll just keep quiet."

 

Does one person/topic protesting change anything? Unlikely. Does a bunch of people/topics protesting change anything? Still unlikely, but at least there's a better chance compared to when everyone just keeps quiet.

 

The latter at least conveys a bigger outcry IMO, compared to a single topic which gets easily buried.

 

As far as I'm concerned there's a new topic protesting (or supporting) these changes, every day, even if they're repetitive.

 

What you're saying isn't wrong but in some cases you have people making threads about the same topic despite seeing several topics about it on the front page because they don't want their comment to be one of many in a thread but stand louder than others which gives the perception of it being driven by ego/arrogance and that's what people don't like about it I think.

 

As for multiple instances vs a single one of something the results can vary. As of this post there's a thread on the front page of the forums dedicated to Theron Shan that has over 3k posts and 200k views. That sort of thing also stands out an makes an impression.

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It’s good that you tested. Too many people with opinions here are only reading and not testing it themselves.

 

Can I ask what content you tested on the pts?

 

I did a variety of stuff, Chapters, some flashpoints (one of them being Spirit of Vengence and Dantooine) some weeklies, some heroics (the ones that are set for higher level since the lower ones I can sneeze through them since they still set for the lower levels) I did things that I am use to doing. I knew my sentinel could do Spirit of Vengence since I did it on live and that was the big test for me because if I couldn't do it with the new changes that is going to be a big problem for me.

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