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Marauder Feedback Thread

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JackieKo's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 09:51 AM | #1 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Marauder.

Please answer the following questions:
  • Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Marauder? Why or why not?
  • If you have feedback on the different disciplines, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

Thank you!
Jackie | Community Manager
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The-Kaitou-Kid's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 12:12 PM | #2
Just gonna reiterate feedback that's been given for Sentinels that has up til now received no real explanation or response: the loss of Force Choke is incredibly annoying and I'd still like to know what the thought process is there. With the addition of Powertechs and Mercenaries, we can now definitively say Sentinels/Marauders are the only class that don't have access to a dedicated hardstun. Several classes get multiple, but Sentinels/Marauders, a melee class that already has less abilities than the other classes overall, are the only class that had all of their dedicated stuns completely removed.

I would love a dev response here to have some kind of insight on why this choice was made, especially since it seems to have been made after the feedback was given that the loss of stuns was noticeable and not appreciated (unless Jackie's post that the hardstun was intended to be available early in the Sentinel testing was just wrong).
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Aryc's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 01:13 PM | #3
The Predation choice currently gives Marauder the original 50% movement speed buff at the cost of 30 stacks of Fury, while Sentinel gets the 80% movement speed buff at no centering cost with a 30 second cooldown while also purging movement impairing effects. I assume the latter is the intentional implementation, since otherwise it'd be pretty much impossible to ever use predation efficiently and the stacking speed buffs affecting Carnage's damage output with some choices become completely pointless, which would be really unfortunate considering the speed build was what I was most excited for in 7.0 and the 80% movement increase was one of my favorite Marauder buttons prior.

Additionally, Unnatural Might seems to have just completely disappeared as an ability for Marauder, which I assume is very much unintentional.

Also, as mentioned before, we are still missing any dedicated stuns whatsoever. I'm still operating under the assumption that we'll be getting a stun at some point, it just won't be Force Choke.

Cavtarus's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 01:50 PM | #4
So Mara feels, pretty terrible. You have to choose between your best defensive (undying) and best way to escape getting targeted (Camo), which were the most iconic mara defensives. You lose Obfuscate and Ruthless Aggressor, so your best peel and way to deal with force/teach damage is gone. You have to choose having Predation which costs Fury again, doesn't go to 80% move speed, and doesn't purge snares. You don't even have a choice of getting a mez or stun.

Spec specific stuff:

This class is just non-viable unless if did so much damage it left everyone else in the dust, but I doubt that'd happen for pve balance reasons. If 30s 80% snare purging Transcendence was baseline with Obfuscate minus RA taking its place, combined with undying going baseline with fear taking its place would go a long way to fixing the class imo.

KaellSolaris's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 02:25 PM | #5
Still the same feeling as Sentinel, the same as live but distorted with a lot of utility missing and a terrible result.

Marauder was one of the classes who was needing the less pruning of abilities

From a PvE perspective I don't think much will change, but the "choices" of abilities... well there is no choices everyone will use the same build for PvE except one or two changes depending on the fight, abilities like Force Camouflage are mandatory for lowering threat.

For PvP it is even more terrible, I didn't think it was possible but yes, it is...
The main problem is that the choices of ability have no logic, for example, you put predation in competition with a root on ravage and a slow on vicious slash and ravage, but root and slow are meaningless if you can't reach melee or if you are kick out of melee range, then predation is no longer a choice it became MANDATORY to do something else than being a living dummy target.

Choices are no longer choices if they became mandatory, if an ability is mandatory, it must become a baseline ability and a new ability must take in place, proposing a competitive choice.

Predation and Force Camouflage must return as baseline, also a hard stun is still missing and hinder our offensive capacity.

Now, this class is not ready for anything PvP relative.

WaywardOne's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 03:09 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by The-Kaitou-Kid View Post
Just gonna reiterate feedback that's been given for Sentinels that has up til now received no real explanation or response: the loss of Force Choke is incredibly annoying and I'd still like to know what the thought process is there...
Because maras have no knockback, no pull (every other class has a pull or kb or both), no (real) self heals, no combat rez, no good ranged damage, no taunts/guards and their good defensives are on the longest cooldowns in the game, they should also not have any stun. Sentinels are not defined by what they can do, they are defined by what they can't do. No other class has remotely close to their lack of utility and control. They are bad at aoe and only competitive at single target melee range when they aren't having to move and aren't being stunned/snared/mezzed. Maras are the class for the simpletons to learn the game and then move on to something else when they want to get good. If they were a good class then half the player base would be playing them just because two lightsabers is cool; and BW wouldn't want their game to support being cool. Mara's are the worst node guards in pvp and the funniest node attackers if solo. Hopefully they will have good dps and be able to do well if they've got a pocket healer+tank.

VampRayLa's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 04:01 PM | #7
Pft, you made it worse.

Aethyriel's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 04:57 PM | #8
There are some things that are cool and then there are some things that sadly just ruin the class. I play only PVE content in Nim, let someone else speak for PVP related things. I also favour Annihilation over the other specs because Carnage just isn't fun nor flexible and I can't stand hearing my Marauder throw up in her mouth when some stupid **** procs in Fury spec as you refuse to remove the most pointless and literally sickening sound in swtor.

First Choice - 18% dmg increase of Force Rend versus a 400% FR damage increase + 1/3rd of the build-up of 100% crit on all dots versus a ~ 8% general increase in dot critical chance. Well, gee, I don't know, do I want the ability that gives me the only other heavy burst option and more crit uptime on dots which amplifies my ae dmg as well? Maybe my math is off, but I just don't see the talents being competitive on paper, much less on live where you need selective burst DPS which only Annihilate truly offers but now, FR can provide as well with the increased Fury generation to boot. I do love Draining Center though.

Second Choice - there is ****, then there's ****, then there's Predation with the old tooltip. Yeah, easy one.

Third Choice - has me massively confused. Force Lash deals as much damage as Vicious Slash only if both other bleeds are on the target (so, not all the time), costs 1 less rage to use (that you don't need for anything really) and just makes the rotation totally wonky. Because you can't have both dots up all the time simply due to the CD of FR being longer than it's duration and then VS is strictly superior to FL. But you also lose a damaging ability costing as much doing much more damage and one that you can spread on secondary targets for proper aoe damage.

What is the point of Force Lash? Its damage nowhere near justifies losing Rupture (which is another dot giving a 20% chance to gain rage btw, so much for the rage cost being lower than VS), especially for AOE.

The other choice is Rupture applying Trauma and refunding its cost when used during Berserk which is random (the tooltip doesn't work, I assume it's just the same as the one on the JK though) and just not worth it. Those 2 rage are just there for nothing and trauma is pointless in PVE.

Finally, the third ability is an aoe boost that is needed and which is very nice. I like Flaming Wave. What I though would be there though is the function that Spiteful saber (tactical) had. I think it's a huge loss for the class to lose the ability to tick and refresh Rupture. I don't know whether that tactical might still work (but your recent posts seem to say it won't) and Idk whether a new tactical might do something similar but it really hurts the class, both ST and in AOE situations. And it makes it more difficult to play because you have to keep track of a single dot only lasting 9 seconds as a melee whose other skills are either spamable or have cooldowns. It's just bad design.

Fourth Choice - Furious Power is too weak without the set bonus that gives more recharges of the ability. it's like 25% dmg increase on 2 out of approximately 40 abilities you might use in a minute after the initial 4 charges are gone. I understand you can use it on Annihilation and a Berserk FR (as you should) but I think overall just gaining either more Fury or directly dealing x more damage like the other choices provide is much simpler and ultimately just as good. Especially the Fury generation might be necessary for a continuous buffed FR.

But the real issue is that Furious Power just isn't a good ability. It's just not fun. It's just something you press before you press something else. It's a nuisance, it has no dynamic, it wastes a keybind for a buff that is only felt in a parse but not while playing. It's one of the least exciting / fun abilities in the game across all classes.

Fifth Choice - This is the one where anyone playing PVE takes Defensive Roll because AE damage is usually what hits you hard. Would have liked two charges but there is no way I'm taking things over Defensive Roll.

Sixth Choice - Despite the nerf to Cloak of Pain (can't spec 10 second duration, removed 15% damage bonus, removed rage gain as well...), it's still great to have it up so reducing its cooldown is pretty strong. There is also only a 15% dmg increase in a skill that isn't even worth using most of the time and a very situational (like Brontes NIM final phase and... nothing else I can think of rn) buff to Saber Ward. But the choice overall is just underwhelming. It's like you could forget to pick anything and it wouldn't even matter.

seventh Choice - this is where you just ruin the class really. But you have been told this repeatably and apparently choose to ignore it. Force camouflage without the self-cleanse is useless. Nobody stays 4 seconds in Force Camo for 50% damage reduce and it's too long a CD just to divert some cast on you sometimes. Mad Dash is super situational, deals no noteworthy damage and is just poor design and the final choice is thus the only one worth taking most of the time unless cheesing some mechanic like Dread Guards NIM dashing Doom. Force camouflage should be a self-cleanse and it should be baseline. This is totally ridiculous and awful.

Eight Choice - We either get self-heal or an increase in DPS on heavy AE fights where we get hit a lot? Or some **** nobody cares about in the middle. Well, great stuff really.

So, overall, you have one good ability in Draining Center and another in Flaming Wave (which is still the wrong tooltip) and then a bunch of ****. You took our stun, so now I guess I'll log on my PT or Sin to play Grace on Tyth NIM. You also really hurt our DPS with losing the Rupture dot refresh / tick from our most used ability in VS which Draining Center might make up for but overall we're getting weaker. We lose Force Camouflage, Stun, Obfuscate, can't reduce the CD on our interrupt anymore, lose intimidating roar (so we can't do turrets on Nahut either anymore, not even *******r than after losing only Force Choke).

I don't know why you ask people to name iconic Warrior / Marauder abilities, people telling you Force Camouflage and Force Choke are two especially important skills and you just remove them from the baseline. The class feels worse to play, less effective to play and also less fun to play than before. I'm not a PVP player myself but others who are playing pretty damn well aren't fond of Marauders on their team and now, having lost any control ability and half their defensive cooldowns, I don't see this improving at all.

This iteration of the patch leaves the 7.0 Marauder worse off than the current Marauder. At least for Annihilation spec.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 09:43 PM | #9
My question to the devs is to ask if their intention is for a maras to still be the mirror image of the corresponding sentinels builds or be different?
Are the changes we are seeing on the mara specs updated versions of our feedback from the sentinels builds or different.
I ask because predation now costs fury (resource) again and and is reduced back to 50% speed (down from 80% and no resources on the sentinel).
I don’t want to assume they are supposed to be mirrored still till we get confirmation.
Also, we still have no force choke or hard stun on the maras/Sents. Are you guys even listening to feedback because every other class has a hard stun still except maras/sents. Some even have multiple stuns.

JLazarillo's Avatar

10.08.2021 , 10:15 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
My question to the devs is to ask if their intention is for a maras to still be the mirror image of the corresponding sentinels builds or be different?
Are the changes we are seeing on the mara specs updated versions of our feedback from the sentinels builds or different.
This is a good question. I noticed similarly on my Juggernaut that I couldn't find the auto skill that supposedly was going to all that auto-refreshed various "opening" skills when you exited combat.

If the intent is therefore to have the mirror classes no longer truly mirror each other, that changes a lot of assumptions I've been looking at these updates with.