Jump to content

Marauder Feedback Thread


JackieKo

Recommended Posts

  • Dev Post

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Marauder.

 

Please answer the following questions:

 

  • Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Marauder? Why or why not?
  • If you have feedback on the different discipline, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  • As you’re beginning from level 1, do you feel you have enough abilities that keep gameplay interesting?
  • Are you able to defeat enemies at a reasonable rate?
  • Do all your abilities feel like they’re working together?

 

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

 

Thank you!

 

EDIT: Added additional feedback questions.

Edited by JackieKo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 62
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Just gonna reiterate feedback that's been given for Sentinels that has up til now received no real explanation or response: the loss of Force Choke is incredibly annoying and I'd still like to know what the thought process is there. With the addition of Powertechs and Mercenaries, we can now definitively say Sentinels/Marauders are the only class that don't have access to a dedicated hardstun. Several classes get multiple, but Sentinels/Marauders, a melee class that already has less abilities than the other classes overall, are the only class that had all of their dedicated stuns completely removed.

 

I would love a dev response here to have some kind of insight on why this choice was made, especially since it seems to have been made after the feedback was given that the loss of stuns was noticeable and not appreciated (unless Jackie's post that the hardstun was intended to be available early in the Sentinel testing was just wrong).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Predation choice currently gives Marauder the original 50% movement speed buff at the cost of 30 stacks of Fury, while Sentinel gets the 80% movement speed buff at no centering cost with a 30 second cooldown while also purging movement impairing effects. I assume the latter is the intentional implementation, since otherwise it'd be pretty much impossible to ever use predation efficiently and the stacking speed buffs affecting Carnage's damage output with some choices become completely pointless, which would be really unfortunate considering the speed build was what I was most excited for in 7.0 and the 80% movement increase was one of my favorite Marauder buttons prior.

 

Additionally, Unnatural Might seems to have just completely disappeared as an ability for Marauder, which I assume is very much unintentional.

 

Also, as mentioned before, we are still missing any dedicated stuns whatsoever. I'm still operating under the assumption that we'll be getting a stun at some point, it just won't be Force Choke.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Mara feels, pretty terrible. You have to choose between your best defensive (undying) and best way to escape getting targeted (Camo), which were the most iconic mara defensives. You lose Obfuscate and Ruthless Aggressor, so your best peel and way to deal with force/teach damage is gone. You have to choose having Predation which costs Fury again, doesn't go to 80% move speed, and doesn't purge snares. You don't even have a choice of getting a mez or stun.

 

Spec specific stuff:

Fury feels like it's in a good place spec wise, aoe raging burst brings back the smash playstyle which adds a hunting for aoe dynamic back to the spec, which is fun to see. The other talents seem to all have their place. That and keeping Gravity Vortex makes it seem like the default pvp spec.

 

Swiftness for Carnage has the shorter duration and gives the intended crit chance now. It isn't hard keep the stacks up when you get them up, but when you stop attacking they fall off immediately. Some players may not like the 'on a knife's edge of falling off at all times' playstyle though. Berserk Gore works to let you easily have Gore up for your next Ferocity, which is nice.

 

Annihilation feels bad. Draining Center and Bleeding Center work pretty well together to have Berserk up to always do super Force Rend. The other 15 talents work fine if that style is not for you. The 30 talents all feel pretty bad. Force Lash is just something you spam 4 times every 8 attacks, conflicts with Annihilate and Battering Assault, on top of no rupture for dot spreading. Flaming Wave is an overly complicated way of doing the damage of Sweeping Slash, where you spam rupture on who you want to damage to the least. The last one seems to exist to check the spec has trauma box. This seems like a row where you either gain nothing, or lose as much as you gain. If FW and FL were just replaced by the effects from Spiteful Saber and Malmourral Mask, I think everyone would be fine with that. With strong aoe options for Carnage and Fury, it feels like Annihilation will lose it's only niche as the aoe pressure spec.

 

This class is just non-viable unless if did so much damage it left everyone else in the dust, but I doubt that'd happen for pve balance reasons. If 30s 80% snare purging Transcendence was baseline with Obfuscate minus RA taking its place, combined with undying going baseline with fear taking its place would go a long way to fixing the class imo.

Edited by Cavtarus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still the same feeling as Sentinel, the same as live but distorted with a lot of utility missing and a terrible result.

 

Marauder was one of the classes who was needing the less pruning of abilities

 

From a PvE perspective I don't think much will change, but the "choices" of abilities... well there is no choices everyone will use the same build for PvE except one or two changes depending on the fight, abilities like Force Camouflage are mandatory for lowering threat.

 

For PvP it is even more terrible, I didn't think it was possible but yes, it is...

The main problem is that the choices of ability have no logic, for example, you put predation in competition with a root on ravage and a slow on vicious slash and ravage, but root and slow are meaningless if you can't reach melee or if you are kick out of melee range, then predation is no longer a choice it became MANDATORY to do something else than being a living dummy target.

 

Choices are no longer choices if they became mandatory, if an ability is mandatory, it must become a baseline ability and a new ability must take in place, proposing a competitive choice.

 

Predation and Force Camouflage must return as baseline, also a hard stun is still missing and hinder our offensive capacity.

 

Now, this class is not ready for anything PvP relative.

Edited by KaellSolaris
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just gonna reiterate feedback that's been given for Sentinels that has up til now received no real explanation or response: the loss of Force Choke is incredibly annoying and I'd still like to know what the thought process is there...

 

Because maras have no knockback, no pull (every other class has a pull or kb or both), no (real) self heals, no combat rez, no good ranged damage, no taunts/guards and their good defensives are on the longest cooldowns in the game, they should also not have any stun. Sentinels are not defined by what they can do, they are defined by what they can't do. No other class has remotely close to their lack of utility and control. They are bad at aoe and only competitive at single target melee range when they aren't having to move and aren't being stunned/snared/mezzed. Maras are the class for the simpletons to learn the game and then move on to something else when they want to get good. If they were a good class then half the player base would be playing them just because two lightsabers is cool; and BW wouldn't want their game to support being cool. Mara's are the worst node guards in pvp and the funniest node attackers if solo. Hopefully they will have good dps and be able to do well if they've got a pocket healer+tank.

Edited by WaywardOne
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are some things that are cool and then there are some things that sadly just ruin the class. I play only PVE content in Nim, let someone else speak for PVP related things. I also favour Annihilation over the other specs because Carnage just isn't fun nor flexible and I can't stand hearing my Marauder throw up in her mouth when some stupid **** procs in Fury spec as you refuse to remove the most pointless and literally sickening sound in swtor.

 

First Choice - 18% dmg increase of Force Rend versus a 400% FR damage increase + 1/3rd of the build-up of 100% crit on all dots versus a ~ 8% general increase in dot critical chance. Well, gee, I don't know, do I want the ability that gives me the only other heavy burst option and more crit uptime on dots which amplifies my ae dmg as well? Maybe my math is off, but I just don't see the talents being competitive on paper, much less on live where you need selective burst DPS which only Annihilate truly offers but now, FR can provide as well with the increased Fury generation to boot. I do love Draining Center though.

 

Second Choice - there is ****, then there's ****, then there's Predation with the old tooltip. Yeah, easy one.

 

Third Choice - has me massively confused. Force Lash deals as much damage as Vicious Slash only if both other bleeds are on the target (so, not all the time), costs 1 less rage to use (that you don't need for anything really) and just makes the rotation totally wonky. Because you can't have both dots up all the time simply due to the CD of FR being longer than it's duration and then VS is strictly superior to FL. But you also lose a damaging ability costing as much doing much more damage and one that you can spread on secondary targets for proper aoe damage.

 

What is the point of Force Lash? Its damage nowhere near justifies losing Rupture (which is another dot giving a 20% chance to gain rage btw, so much for the rage cost being lower than VS), especially for AOE.

 

The other choice is Rupture applying Trauma and refunding its cost when used during Berserk which is random (the tooltip doesn't work, I assume it's just the same as the one on the JK though) and just not worth it. Those 2 rage are just there for nothing and trauma is pointless in PVE.

 

Finally, the third ability is an aoe boost that is needed and which is very nice. I like Flaming Wave. What I though would be there though is the function that Spiteful saber (tactical) had. I think it's a huge loss for the class to lose the ability to tick and refresh Rupture. I don't know whether that tactical might still work (but your recent posts seem to say it won't) and Idk whether a new tactical might do something similar but it really hurts the class, both ST and in AOE situations. And it makes it more difficult to play because you have to keep track of a single dot only lasting 9 seconds as a melee whose other skills are either spamable or have cooldowns. It's just bad design.

 

Fourth Choice - Furious Power is too weak without the set bonus that gives more recharges of the ability. it's like 25% dmg increase on 2 out of approximately 40 abilities you might use in a minute after the initial 4 charges are gone. I understand you can use it on Annihilation and a Berserk FR (as you should) but I think overall just gaining either more Fury or directly dealing x more damage like the other choices provide is much simpler and ultimately just as good. Especially the Fury generation might be necessary for a continuous buffed FR.

 

But the real issue is that Furious Power just isn't a good ability. It's just not fun. It's just something you press before you press something else. It's a nuisance, it has no dynamic, it wastes a keybind for a buff that is only felt in a parse but not while playing. It's one of the least exciting / fun abilities in the game across all classes.

 

Fifth Choice - This is the one where anyone playing PVE takes Defensive Roll because AE damage is usually what hits you hard. Would have liked two charges but there is no way I'm taking things over Defensive Roll.

 

Sixth Choice - Despite the nerf to Cloak of Pain (can't spec 10 second duration, removed 15% damage bonus, removed rage gain as well...), it's still great to have it up so reducing its cooldown is pretty strong. There is also only a 15% dmg increase in a skill that isn't even worth using most of the time and a very situational (like Brontes NIM final phase and... nothing else I can think of rn) buff to Saber Ward. But the choice overall is just underwhelming. It's like you could forget to pick anything and it wouldn't even matter.

 

seventh Choice - this is where you just ruin the class really. But you have been told this repeatably and apparently choose to ignore it. Force camouflage without the self-cleanse is useless. Nobody stays 4 seconds in Force Camo for 50% damage reduce and it's too long a CD just to divert some cast on you sometimes. Mad Dash is super situational, deals no noteworthy damage and is just poor design and the final choice is thus the only one worth taking most of the time unless cheesing some mechanic like Dread Guards NIM dashing Doom. Force camouflage should be a self-cleanse and it should be baseline. This is totally ridiculous and awful.

 

Eight Choice - We either get self-heal or an increase in DPS on heavy AE fights where we get hit a lot? Or some **** nobody cares about in the middle. Well, great stuff really.

 

So, overall, you have one good ability in Draining Center and another in Flaming Wave (which is still the wrong tooltip) and then a bunch of ****. You took our stun, so now I guess I'll log on my PT or Sin to play Grace on Tyth NIM. You also really hurt our DPS with losing the Rupture dot refresh / tick from our most used ability in VS which Draining Center might make up for but overall we're getting weaker. We lose Force Camouflage, Stun, Obfuscate, can't reduce the CD on our interrupt anymore, lose intimidating roar (so we can't do turrets on Nahut either anymore, not even *******r than after losing only Force Choke).

 

I don't know why you ask people to name iconic Warrior / Marauder abilities, people telling you Force Camouflage and Force Choke are two especially important skills and you just remove them from the baseline. The class feels worse to play, less effective to play and also less fun to play than before. I'm not a PVP player myself but others who are playing pretty damn well aren't fond of Marauders on their team and now, having lost any control ability and half their defensive cooldowns, I don't see this improving at all.

 

This iteration of the patch leaves the 7.0 Marauder worse off than the current Marauder. At least for Annihilation spec.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My question to the devs is to ask if their intention is for a maras to still be the mirror image of the corresponding sentinels builds or be different?

Are the changes we are seeing on the mara specs updated versions of our feedback from the sentinels builds or different.

I ask because predation now costs fury (resource) again and and is reduced back to 50% speed (down from 80% and no resources on the sentinel).

I don’t want to assume they are supposed to be mirrored still till we get confirmation.

Also, we still have no force choke or hard stun on the maras/Sents. Are you guys even listening to feedback because every other class has a hard stun still except maras/sents. Some even have multiple stuns.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My question to the devs is to ask if their intention is for a maras to still be the mirror image of the corresponding sentinels builds or be different?

Are the changes we are seeing on the mara specs updated versions of our feedback from the sentinels builds or different.

This is a good question. I noticed similarly on my Juggernaut that I couldn't find the auto skill that supposedly was going to all that auto-refreshed various "opening" skills when you exited combat.

 

If the intent is therefore to have the mirror classes no longer truly mirror each other, that changes a lot of assumptions I've been looking at these updates with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Must admit, seeing how Predation is electable ability, and not something we have as core, just like in case of Force Choke really makes that class feel rather... tasteless and pointless. That and 70-level choice between 3 rather significant abilities of Mad Dash, Force Camouflage and Undying Rage... well, that's just feel really bad. So bad actually that it doesn't actually feel like Marauder any longer. At least not for me, since previously both in PvE and PvP main attraction of that class for me always was its mobility - Predation and Force Camouflage with Mad Dash joining them later. And seeing how now we're supposed to choose them, and in case of Predation even in its 'weaker' form, related to Fury stacks, being forced to choose between Mad Dash and Force Camo... That feels really bad.

As many before me marked - removal of all our stuns both hard and soft, feels like a real big mistake.

Same actually goes for Obfuscate - not certain if it's just something temporary, or planned, but that also was quite unpleasant surprise for me.

Long story short - no, it doesn't feel like Marauder any longer, just wrecked shadow of its current self. Really hope it won't be presented like this in 7.0.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it doesn't actually feel like Marauder any longer [...] At least not for me, since previously both in PvE and PvP main attraction of that class for me always was its mobility - Predation and Force Camouflage with Mad Dash joining them later.

 

This is honestly the thing that I agree with the most about the problems with these changes. I don't actually care too much about Undying Rage, it's a good defensive ability and all, but I think Cloak of Pain is more fun to use and far more iconic for Marauders and I've pressed Obfuscate like three times in PVP. The trivialization of earlier content by the addition of abilities is something that needs to be addressed and I fully understand cutting down on defensive abilities.

 

Cutting down on movement utility for a Marauder, however, is a horrible idea. It's the one thing that set the class apart from other DPS classes. Predation being a 30 second cooldown with an 80% speed boost that spreads to the party meant you actually contributed something, something akin to a class having stealth, a control ability, push, or otherwise, something you could use when you needed to that didn't cut into your other abilities by draining your resources that benefited the party in more ways than just murdering people. Every class in the game needs some sort of utility without massive opportunity cost to be even slightly competitive with its peers and aside from being able to skip every few mobs with Force Camouflage (That thing that two whole classes can do with EVERY enemy) Predation is pretty much all we've got. If it isn't a bug, and we haven't seen an update to confirm it is despite other bugs being added to the list, I don't know what's going on over there.

 

From the Imperial side of things (For sake of not making this list doubly long) Juggernauts still have Force Push, Assassins and Operatives still have stealth and their crowd controls, Powertechs can grapple, the DPS specs for Sorcerer and Mercenary still get access to their healing abilities, All Inquisitors get access to Force Speed, and the list honestly goes on.

 

Taking away what little utility this class had that made it feel like even a slightly effective contribution to the group despite the utility surrounding it is a really, really bad choice if it is one, and requires clarification if it isn't. I've always felt the pressure to swap away from my favorite class and archetype in the game due to its already limited utility and without even the tiniest shred to contribute other than damage output (Which any class can provide) I'm at a loss as to how anyone, least of all myself, is going to be able to justify playing a marauder in 7.0.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other than the general information of Marauder not transferring over from Sentinel (descriptions, abilities and how they work, etc.), Marauder as a whole needs to see a lot change. The utility choices compared to other classes aren't meaningful for most of them, with not much benefit overall compared to other classes. An example of this is a level 65 choice, which only gives a damage increase to Sweeping Slash. Something that isn't worth taking in any situation, especially considering Marauder's lacking capabilities in any and all AoE over time. There are a lot of really well done and detailed examples on the Sentinel feedback forum page for what can be changed to improve the class - without giving back Force Choke if you are set on keeping Marauders without it. I think that a lot of the suggestions should at least be considered and tested if nothing else. And have some of them implemented. Pruning some abilities is okay, but they have to be made up for in other ways. The only "problematic" thing in regards to Marauders in the current patch is Defel Spliced Genes; and if this is too problematic, then nerf or remove it, instead of taking almost everything from what Marauders have. If not, then they should have their damage compensated, or at least elevated to the same tier of Fury.

 

Speaking of Fury, after some testing the average TTK on a 3.25m dummy for Annihilation was 3:18 with a tactical. Fury without the tactical and in the same gear was killing the 3.25m health dummy at an average of 2:45. Close to a 30 second TTK difference, when Annihilation has always been the strongest and highest parsing class in the game with the added challenge of having a high skill ceiling. But even now compared to other classes, it feels extremely weak, especially for a class having such long DCDs or non-beneficial use.

 

Most abilities on both Carnage and Annihilation hit for nothing, with their biggest hitters doing not much more. The average highest crit for both was ~50k, while Fury's filler abilities do close to 70k each, on top of hitting for 98k-120k raging bursts. Fury has the most utility, and the highest damage by far, which in the general scheme of all classes would be fine if it didn't take away from the other two. If Marauders are turning into something more punishing to play, they should get the benefit of a higher reward as well.

 

If carnage for example is going to turn into a "speed" spec, it should be given hard hitters in a short amount of time, with lower amounts for filler. Its biggest hitters should not do less than Fury's filler abilities. Smash by itself in Fury does over 70k damage, and I have yet to break 50 with Carnage.

 

Along with that, Annihilation should just have all of their abilities boosted for damage, with at least some form of a big hit in Annihilate to prevent it from being a glorified Vicious Slash. It doesn't need to be bursty, but Annihilate doesn't feel like it is an ability worth using.

 

Overall, some of the choices are really fun and good. The speed options for Carnage and the 4x Force Rend for Annihilation were the best that I saw. But compared to Fury, they are meaningless. Criticality is one of the best choices overall introduced for Marauder since they lost any auto-crit, and it is kept in the strongest spec of the class only. It would help a lot to share it with the other two at a minimum, if nothing else changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ability to hard stun to follow up your combo is what made marauder what it was. You removed the ability to hard stun enemies so now we cant do what we did best, in melee range.

 

Now how do you expect it to work with us constantly running after someone?

 

Also, i see you made the class buff passive - i guess this should be applied to every class, but make sure we still get the legacy buffs if our account has the other class buff passives too.

 

I also really dislike having to choose between camo and undying. Imagine now doing dailies and stuff but you like udying, so now people will be swapping to force camo just to dodge crappy trash mobs and then click it back to the undying talent. what a mental show lol. Not fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ability to hard stun to follow up your combo is what made marauder what it was. You removed the ability to hard stun enemies so now we cant do what we did best, in melee range.

Funny part is you had to channel choke back in the day for as long as you stunned the target. Making it so Mara can't stun and burst something is also "what made marauder what it was." And back then it was arguably the best pvp class.

Edited by Cavtarus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just gonna reiterate feedback that's been given for Sentinels that has up til now received no real explanation or response: the loss of Force Choke is incredibly annoying and I'd still like to know what the thought process is there. With the addition of Powertechs and Mercenaries, we can now definitively say Sentinels/Marauders are the only class that don't have access to a dedicated hardstun. Several classes get multiple, but Sentinels/Marauders, a melee class that already has less abilities than the other classes overall, are the only class that had all of their dedicated stuns completely removed.

 

I would love a dev response here to have some kind of insight on why this choice was made, especially since it seems to have been made after the feedback was given that the loss of stuns was noticeable and not appreciated (unless Jackie's post that the hardstun was intended to be available early in the Sentinel testing was just wrong).

 

Don't hold your breath.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Additionally, Unnatural Might seems to have just completely disappeared as an ability for Marauder, which I assume is very much unintentional.

 

Also, as mentioned before, we are still missing any dedicated stuns whatsoever. I'm still operating under the assumption that we'll be getting a stun at some point, it just won't be Force Choke.

 

If BW follows SOP for past expansions, Sentinels and Marauders are S.O.L.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Predation needs to be on a 30sec cooldown and off the Fury system. Force Camo should be a baseline class ability with utilities for self-cleanse and duration/speed buff baked in. Obsfucate with Ruthless Aggressor/extended range utilities can replace it as a meaningful DCD choice. A single target hard stun on a 1min CD needs to be baseline if Force Choke is being taken away and every other class is keeping access to all their current CC. Without these the class won't feel iconic or fun to play, especially in PvP. A general lowering of DCD times or some buffed to include some self healing wouldn't be unappreciated too. Don't nerf this class like you did in 3.0 and take 2 xpacs to bring it back to life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Predation/Transcendence should not cost 30 stacks. I don't know of a single sentinel/marauder that doesn't take Ardor/whatever its called imp side currently. if we have to choose it for a boss fight that its needed, its wrong to make us waste a frenzy for it since it will really disrupt rotations unless centering can be built above 30 stacks since likely we'll be somewhere between 1 and 30 at the time transcendence/predation is needed.

 

i thought we all said we didnt like predation being an option we had to pick, now it *has* to cost 30 stacks again AND only be 50% instead of the 80% that it was previously on PTS for sentinel? please listen to us, we dont like these changes!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all: the new skill tree does not really give the marauder it's essential identity and how the marauder is meant to be played. Many important things are there but there are also real issues since you decided to remove so much flexibility by getting rid of 24 skill points and the old passive tree:

 

- Self cleanse: the marauder has to be able to cleanse himself from debuffs like it has been for all the time. For example Jugg still has self cleanse with endure pain. Why the marauder doesn't? It's just so random what you designed atm. My suggestion would be to add a self cleanse to the ability force camouflage itself or implement it to my example below.

 

- Cloak of pain: I'm glad that you didn't miss cloak of annihilation, but as important as that is cloak of rage. Cloak of rage gives a marauder so much more fun when it comes to raiding and an ability to really dig into intense burst sequences by gaining rage and reducing damage at the same time. This skill point is so essential for the feeling of a marauder. And my suggestion here is also to add cloak of rage to cloak of pain by default or combine it with cloak of annihilation at the level 60 decision.

 

- Predation: Another ability that is so iconic for the marauder. But you implemented the base predation which no one ever uses. You literally lose predation although we already lose so many other important abilities because no one uses it with wasting fury stacks. And it is just really bad class design to trade damage with using berserk against movement with using predation by consuming 30 fury stacks. Also the base predation is such a slow movement buff with 50% that you almost don't even recognize any difference. So: Buff the predation to its current state on live server with Relentless for a 30s cooldown and Unbound for 80% movement speed and root break by default. Or maybe even 100% movement speed if you want to do us at least one favour and want to progress current states of abilities and not just punish every ability to a nerfed version for 7.0.

 

- General movement speed: almost every melee dps can increase their general movement speed by 15%. This is also missing from the Phantom skill point.

 

- Quality of life: Now is the perfect time to give a marauder what a powertech has had for years with his energy burst. Let us be able to stack up with fury stacks with the ability channel hatred for proper pre-stacking berserk before we enter a fight. Someone told me it is implemented on sentinel but i just tested it on marauder and it doesn't work atm.

 

Another important issue: the marauder is losing so much useful skills compared to all the other classes. My Suggestion for the level 70 decision: don't let us lose always 2 of 3 essential defensives and make it a bit more convenient and interesting. Instead of letting us decide between force camouflage, mad dash, undying rage as an ability completely, give us a decision for specific uses of those for specific fights.

for example you can let us decide between force camouflage with self cleanse, predation with 10% defense chance (and remove the 10% defense chance from base predation to compensate a much more useful base predation with 80% speed buff 30s cooldown by default) and a mad dash with 100% defense chance (and remove that 100% defense chance also from base mad dash) to at least let us use force camouflage for damage reduction OR self cleanse, mad dash for mobility OR defense chance and a 80% speed buffed 30s cooldown predation (which is the current one on live server with skill points) with OR without 10% defense chance. This would be actual good class design and real individuality that your community manager praised so high on twitch for 7.0. You see people being unhappy with the new marauder design not just on this thread but also in the entire community (and more important: unhappy in almost the exact same way). It seems like you forgot that most of marauders damage and defense abilities have 2-3 uses in different situation compared to other classes and please design it smart instead of just ripping all those abilities and essential passives completely away.

I took the effort and time again to tell you what you were asking for. Now you have a really detailed list of which problems still exist and even suggestions which are also examples for better class design. all in all if these issues get fixed, marauder mains could be ok with getting into 7.0. Now it‘s your turn.

I would like to thank you for asking us. But in the future I would like it much more to thank you for listening to us who play this class for years and years on every difficulty in every raid.

Edited by funfish
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all: the new skill tree does not really give the marauder it's essential identity and how the marauder is meant to be played. Many important things are there but there are also real issues since you decided to remove so much flexibility by getting rid of 24 skill points and the old passive tree:

 

- Self cleanse: the marauder has to be able to cleanse himself from debuffs like it has been for all the time. For example Jugg still has self cleanse with endure pain. Why the marauder doesn't? It's just so random what you designed atm. My suggestion would be to add a self cleanse to the ability force camouflage itself or implement it to my example below.

 

- Cloak of pain: I'm glad that you didn't miss cloak of annihilation, but as important as that is cloak of rage. Cloak of rage gives a marauder so much more fun when it comes to raiding and an ability to really dig into intense burst sequences by gaining rage and reducing damage at the same time. This skill point is so essential for the feeling of a marauder. And my suggestion here is also to add cloak of rage to cloak of pain by default or combine it with cloak of annihilation at the level 60 decision.

 

- Predation: Another ability that is so iconic for the marauder. But you implemented the base predation which no one ever uses. You literally lose predation although we already lose so many other important abilities because no one uses it with wasting fury stacks. And it is just really bad class design to trade damage with using berserk against movement with using predation by consuming 30 fury stacks. Also the base predation is such a slow movement buff with 50% that you almost don't even recognize any difference. So: Buff the predation to its current state on live server with Relentless for a 30s cooldown and Unbound for 80% movement speed and root break by default. Or maybe even 100% movement speed if you want to do us at least one favour and want to progress current states of abilities and not just punish every ability to a nerfed version for 7.0.

 

- General movement speed: almost every melee dps can increase their general movement speed by 15%. This is also missing from the Phantom skill point.

 

- Quality of life: Now is the perfect time to give a marauder what a powertech has had for years with his energy burst. Let us be able to stack up with fury stacks with the ability channel hatred for proper pre-stacking berserk before we enter a fight. Someone told me it is implemented on sentinel but i just tested it on marauder and it doesn't work atm.

 

Another important issue: the marauder is losing so much useful skills compared to all the other classes. My Suggestion for the level 70 decision: don't let us lose always 2 of 3 essential defensives and make it a bit more convenient and interesting. Instead of letting us decide between force camouflage, mad dash, undying rage as an ability completely, give us a decision for specific uses of those for specific fights.

for example you can let us decide between force camouflage with self cleanse, predation with 10% defense chance (and remove the 10% defense chance from base predation to compensate a much more useful base predation with 80% speed buff 30s cooldown by default) and a mad dash with 100% defense chance (and remove that 100% defense chance also from base mad dash) to at least let us use force camouflage for damage reduction OR self cleanse, mad dash for mobility OR defense chance and a 80% speed buffed 30s cooldown predation (which is the current one on live server with skill points) with OR without 10% defense chance. This would be actual good class design and real individuality that your community manager praised so high on twitch for 7.0. You see people being unhappy with the new marauder design not just on this thread but also in the entire community (and more important: unhappy in almost the exact same way). It seems like you forgot that most of marauders damage and defense abilities have 2-3 uses in different situation compared to other classes and please design it smart instead of just ripping all those abilities and essential passives completely away.

I took the effort and time again to tell you what you were asking for. Now you have a really detailed list of which problems still exist and even suggestions which are also examples for better class design. all in all if these issues get fixed, marauder mains could be ok with getting into 7.0. Now it‘s your turn.

I would like to thank you for asking us. But in the future I would like it much more to thank you for listening to us who play this class for years and years on every difficulty in every raid.

 

Dude, you should be working for them. You know more about what they messed up than they do. Sometimes it really shows that they dont play the game, just make it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

first of all: The new skill tree does not really give the marauder it's essential identity and how the marauder is meant to be played. Many important things are there but there are also real issues since you decided to remove so much flexibility by getting rid of 24 skill points and the old passive tree:

 

- self cleanse: The marauder has to be able to cleanse himself from debuffs like it has been for all the time. For example jugg still has self cleanse with endure pain. Why the marauder doesn't? It's just so random what you designed atm. My suggestion would be to add a self cleanse to the ability force camouflage itself or implement it to my example below.

 

- cloak of pain: I'm glad that you didn't miss cloak of annihilation, but as important as that is cloak of rage. Cloak of rage gives a marauder so much more fun when it comes to raiding and an ability to really dig into intense burst sequences by gaining rage and reducing damage at the same time. This skill point is so essential for the feeling of a marauder. And my suggestion here is also to add cloak of rage to cloak of pain by default or combine it with cloak of annihilation at the level 60 decision.

 

- predation: Another ability that is so iconic for the marauder. But you implemented the base predation which no one ever uses. You literally lose predation although we already lose so many other important abilities because no one uses it with wasting fury stacks. And it is just really bad class design to trade damage with using berserk against movement with using predation by consuming 30 fury stacks. Also the base predation is such a slow movement buff with 50% that you almost don't even recognize any difference. So: Buff the predation to its current state on live server with relentless for a 30s cooldown and unbound for 80% movement speed and root break by default. Or maybe even 100% movement speed if you want to do us at least one favour and want to progress current states of abilities and not just punish every ability to a nerfed version for 7.0.

 

- general movement speed: Almost every melee dps can increase their general movement speed by 15%. This is also missing from the phantom skill point.

 

- quality of life: Now is the perfect time to give a marauder what a powertech has had for years with his energy burst. Let us be able to stack up with fury stacks with the ability channel hatred for proper pre-stacking berserk before we enter a fight. Someone told me it is implemented on sentinel but i just tested it on marauder and it doesn't work atm.

 

Another important issue: The marauder is losing so much useful skills compared to all the other classes. My suggestion for the level 70 decision: Don't let us lose always 2 of 3 essential defensives and make it a bit more convenient and interesting. Instead of letting us decide between force camouflage, mad dash, undying rage as an ability completely, give us a decision for specific uses of those for specific fights.

for example you can let us decide between force camouflage with self cleanse, predation with 10% defense chance (and remove the 10% defense chance from base predation to compensate a much more useful base predation with 80% speed buff 30s cooldown by default) and a mad dash with 100% defense chance (and remove that 100% defense chance also from base mad dash) to at least let us use force camouflage for damage reduction or self cleanse, mad dash for mobility or defense chance and a 80% speed buffed 30s cooldown predation (which is the current one on live server with skill points) with or without 10% defense chance. This would be actual good class design and real individuality that your community manager praised so high on twitch for 7.0. You see people being unhappy with the new marauder design not just on this thread but also in the entire community (and more important: Unhappy in almost the exact same way). It seems like you forgot that most of marauders damage and defense abilities have 2-3 uses in different situation compared to other classes and please design it smart instead of just ripping all those abilities and essential passives completely away.

I took the effort and time again to tell you what you were asking for. Now you have a really detailed list of which problems still exist and even suggestions which are also examples for better class design. All in all if these issues get fixed, marauder mains could be ok with getting into 7.0. Now it‘s your turn.

I would like to thank you for asking us. But in the future i would like it much more to thank you for listening to us who play this class for years and years on every difficulty in every raid.

 

100% agree!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Second: now specific rotational aspects for each discipline:

 

- level 27:

Annihilation: Good

Carnage: Piercing Gore is kinda interesting and ok for aoe. Driving Gore is also good. And Berserk of Glores just doesn't fit into carnage's rotation at all. Gore has the highest rage consumption and carnage is not designed to spam gore in its burst window. You just can't do that with lowest rage gain of all marauder rotations. I would suggest a reduction of the rage costs just for that additional gore from Berserk of Glores down to zero. So Berserk of Glores could look like this: Using gore with berserk grants you ONE additional gore (to balance it with preventing it from beeing spammed) without any rage costs. This would allow the rotation to smoothly going on into its massacre filler sequence after a berserk burst window with two gores. So that would be a really creative idea to enhance the single target rotation without interrupting it.

Fury: Good

 

- level 35:

This decision is weird. Predation should be in your standard ability list and instead of that there should be a third choise comparable to overwhelming slashes and snaring slash. Crippling Slash would fit really well here as a choice because in its function and in its value for pvp it is absolutely comparable to these two slowing and rooting passives. But i don't mind it too much this still ok

 

- level 43:

Annihilation: ok

Carnage: Good

Fury: Good

 

Level 47:

Each of the two discipline based choices seem pretty good and to put Furious Power into this decision is also not too bad since the descent of the fearless set bonus will be removed. So this is also a decision with 3 absolutely comparable passives/abilities in damage

Edited by funfish
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jackie, still waiting to hear if the marauders and Juggs are still supposed to be mirror image class/specs of the sentinels and guardians because these changes are different to some of those previously tested on those.

Are these going to be exact updated versions of what you have planned for both sets of classes or have you guys decided to split these from mirroring each factions classes? If so, can you please let us know either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...