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Juggernaut Feedback Thread

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JackieKo's Avatar


JackieKo
10.08.2021 , 09:49 AM | #1 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Juggernaut.

Please answer the following questions:
  • Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?
  • If you have feedback on the different discipline, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  • As you’re beginning from level 1, do you feel you have enough abilities that keep gameplay interesting?
  • Are you able to defeat enemies at a reasonable rate?
  • Do all your abilities feel like they’re working together?

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

Thank you!

EDIT: Added additional feedback questions.
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jheiv's Avatar


jheiv
10.08.2021 , 03:50 PM | #2
(Immortal Feedback)

Tree:
- Having to choose between saber reflect and mad dash feels as terrible as it sounded when it was previewed.
That is to say, terrible (and this is surprising given that we haven't had mad dash for all that long).

I better choice, imo, would be to make saber reflect baseline and, if you have to force a choice between actives, make it between Mad Dash//Threatening Scream//Force Choke.

But not only does taking abilities away just feel bad (as I'm sure you've heard but seem determined to push out), it just isn't handled well by the game engine. Switching between active abilities (let alone switching between specs) puts abilities in the first available places. A better solution would have been to keep the icons there, just unavailable (e.g. red message saying "Ability not currently selected" or whatever). It wouldn't solve the issue of spec-changing, but it'd make the choose-between-active-skills path you guys are going down feel a tiny bit less painful.

For the rest of the tree:
  • 15: Targeted Assault seems terrible. Not only does AA do little damage in the first place, but it's seems to encourage a weird pattern of chain taunting. Chain taunting is probably fine in PVP, likely encouraged even, but even then why wouldn't you just take Sith'ari Strike which gives the exact same bonus, without the "taunted targets" restriction, and more. Other than that, I don't mind choosing between more offensive and more defensive focused passives, and the fact all the options trigger off of AA shows that the new tree could provide some interesting decisions and promise, if only the rest were like this.
  • 20:: Out of the three tanks, Juggs already have the hardest time with AoE threat generation when SR and CB aren't available. Sweeping Slash is probably going to be the only one PvE tanks will consider, but given the rest of the options on that tier that seems fine. PvP juggs will probably be the opposite -- also fine.
  • 30: Again, a bizarre option with "taunted targets" but at least it's not strictly worse than any other one like 15. And again, I like the 3 options revolving around buffs on CB, the first two seem fine, the last one just seems weird (but potentially has some PvP burst opportunity).
  • 35: This is a fine tier. War Machine makes Threating Rage (the new Enrage) even more interesting to play around with. Marked for Death started off sounding interesting to use as an off tank, but the "taunted targets" restriction makes that unlikely. Reckoning seems like the same as it is currently, a fine PvP talent.
  • 50 & 60: These are just choices of currently existing passives. My only comment here would be that it'd be nice to swap one of the ones from 60 with one of the ones from 50. None of the passives in 50 are as interesting and impactful as the ones in 60, causing both the 50 and 60 decisions to feel bad. 50 feels bad because they're all kind of "meh", and 60 feels bad because they're all interesting. Swapping War Master to 50 (with any of the current 50 options) would make both choices more interesting.
  • 70: Already covered.
  • 80: Sort of underwhelming, but at least it's not negative progress like 70. Not only are we choosing between already-existing-at-75 utilities, but there's no real decision here. The majority of players (both PvP and PvE) will pick Through Passion unless you're doing some arena skank tank thing, in which case Pooled Hatred might be considered, but I'm pretty doubtful about that.

Rotation:
This feels almost unaffected (which is good).

A note about Threatening Rage
The "damages all taunted targets around you" line is an interesting addition to the previously vanilla Enrage. But it's kind of clunky to use in practice. Lets say you want to get the most value of the damage effect of it, so you have to use it within 4 GCDs of an AoE taunt. But really, I want to taunt after damage, not as a prerequisite.

If, instead of "taunted targets around you" it said "all engaged enemies" (like saber reflect), it'd make much more sense. Then, you could use it as an instant rage button like you would Enrage, with a new upside.

I guess it could be phrased the way it is because of some weird PVP focus? But it does so little damage I don't think the change would be all that impactful. And if it were, changing it to "damages all engaged nonplayer and taunted enemy players". (Sort of mixture between guard + saber reflect wording).

In any case, not a huge deal, just more of a missed opportunity. The 5k damage (per taunted enemy) you get out of it every 45 seconds is not enough to make anyone feel bad about losing that effect when using it outside of the 6s taunt window.

Things we've gained:
  • Utility to extend SR duration has now been worked into the baseline version of the skill for tanks. This is a great QoL change, as it was a mandatory utility for tanks.

Things we've lost:
  • Options for temporary slight speed boosts (e.g. Enraged Defense).
  • (Tiny) bubble on AoE Taunt/Threatening Scream, though the option to get a similar effect on CB (which now also affects yourself, unlike the threatening scream utility) will probably make up for it, potentially for a net buff.
  • Ability to slightly buff sweeping slash damage to help with AoE threat generation.
  • Immunity to movement impairing effects currently/previously available in utilities.
  • Will edit this as I find more stuff

Overall, I'm slightly disappointed in the changes, but I think there's promise there, even some glimpses of genius in the tree.

tl;dr:
  • Choosing between additional secondary/tertiary effects for core rotational abilities is interesting.
  • Choosing between already existing utility or defensive abilities feels bad and I'd personally like to see some tweaks to them to make them more interesting but, outside of the tier 70 choice, it's reluctantly acceptable.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
10.09.2021 , 08:29 AM | #3
I'm very glad that Intercede is back baseline for all Juggs, with tanks gaining the Reckoning utility in its place. I still have a few points I don't like about the current state of Juggs on the PTS:

1. Having to choose between Mad Dash and Saber Reflect is a problem. Especially since Sins seem to be keeping all their cheeses in Shroud and Cloakout Shroud. I would exchange Endure Pain and Saber Reflect. This way there's still a tough choice between getting a cleanse with Endure Pain and getting extra mobility/damage avoidance with Dash.

2. Threatening Rage doesn't really work imo. It's a nice idea but the way it functions is weird. I don't want to do extra AoE damage AFTER I've taunted, I want it before, so I can get some extra threat. But in general I prefer if we could get the extra movement speed we could get from Unshackling Rage back. It's our only source of on demand movement speed with Chilling Scream removed.

3. Targeted Assault seems strictly inferior to Sith'ari Strike at level 15. Do I want 20% increased damage to taunted targets or do I want 20% increased damage, crit chance AND threat generation against ANY target. This is a minor point compared to the other two though, the other two options at level 15 seem great.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
10.09.2021 , 09:21 AM | #4
I need my Force Choke back.

I'll add more to this. Force Choke is one of the reasons I love playing Juggernaut! This is the iconic move of the class. This is the Heroic Ability because of the Warrior. I use Force Choke, not because I need a stun, but because I love using it.

I use Force Choke more than I use Mad Dash.

Please. Put this back in as a normal ability!
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Irishdoh's Avatar


Irishdoh
10.09.2021 , 10:23 AM | #5
This is almost a CC of my review of the Mercenary. Really, the impression is the same, but I did want to note that I did actually log into the PST and look at the changes for this class.

I have a list of abilities that now force me to select between abilities that I now get almost all of on my characters. Instead of having defensives and offensives I now have to choose and the options are poor either way. Items that I currently get at low levels now appear at ridiculously high levels. And, as I noted on other classes, adding 5 levels and just rearranging the abilities instead of giving new ones makes no sense.

Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?

It feels like a pale comparison. However, the changes and limitations remove much of my enjoyment in playing the game. You have the basics there, but after level 10 it fails to live up to what I currently have on my characters. Plainly put, this is a poor design change and in no way enhances or improves my enjoyment of the game. It accomplishes the opposite. I also note with interest that you have changed your questioning down to just the rotation. Concentrating on "the rotation" tells me that you are concentrating on a specific group of players and not all players to justify your decisions.

I never like to write this, and a normally have a "Meh, whatever" attitude when other people do write this, but I am actually considering pulling my sub money if this goes live. Seeing as I spend that plus another $40 to $200 per month on this game to amuse myself, that will be a good chunk I can put into another game. Changing the game this much and in this way will drive people away and I doubt your new adventure options will pull enough people back or newly in to make up the difference in the long run. After the initial boost from non-sub players to gain access and see the new adventure, I would be interested to see the numbers 3 and six months on. You had a great thing with adding the Galactic Seasons, and I was excited with the idea of opening combat styles to other classes. But this basically ruins that excitement. My advice personally would be to drop the 5 extra levels and the pruning/redesign, just open up the combat styles to other classes as you described and revisit this pruning/redesign idea later.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
10.09.2021 , 04:45 PM | #6
Please put back force choke

euroDSMtuner's Avatar


euroDSMtuner
10.09.2021 , 05:49 PM | #7
Choosing between reflect, endure pain (the only cleanse move) or mad dash is a swift kick in the teeth for a DPS and tank. I can maybe see choosing 2 of these, but not 1. (which seems to be visually happening on PTS atm.)

My mount speed seems broken too, and I don't have walk keyed up so I'm not sure what that is.
Re-release the ipp.class.inq.pvp.cdps1.t8x3.waist!

Wolvel's Avatar


Wolvel
10.10.2021 , 12:10 AM | #8
Where are the jugg patch notes? They added and changed things but didnt list them?

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
10.10.2021 , 06:17 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by JackieKo View Post
With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Juggernaut.

Please answer the following questions:
  • Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?
  • If you have feedback on the different disciplines, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

Thank you!
I only had the opportunity to try out Vengeance and Rage before I got logged out of the PTS. Having connectivity issues with that server it seems.

***For myself, all specs had access to Force Choke.***

Intercede was returned to baseline. Massive improvement over the first iteration.

Missing / selectable abilities:
Cyclone slash (choice), furious power (gone), freezing force (gone), mad dash / saber reflect / endure pain (level 70 choice), intimidating roar (choice). Vicious throw missing for Rage Spec

Vengeance:

The rotation feels largely the same, with one caveat. Bloodlust (Enrage) wasn't consistently generating rage. Having to lead with sundering assault makes the rotation feel clunky imo. It leads to unnecessary downtime. I'm not sure if this was intended or not. If it was, this should be changed so that it always generates rage when used.

Leading with sundering assault should remain a player choice. We do it when we want an armor debuff, we don't when we need to kill something quickly by doing Bloodlust -> Leap -> rotation.

Another choice that was removed was using Furious Power to buff an ability. This ability was hit or miss, but I enjoyed having the freedom to choose when my hard hitting abilities were empowered. It's removal did not improve my gaming experience.

Also, i'll reiterate my previous post. The 100% must haves of the class in order for it to feel like a Juggernaut are force charge, mad dash, intercede, force push, force choke, saber throw / hew, saber reflect, saber ward, enraged defense. Anything else can safely be modified without making the class *feel* any different.

Secondary abilities:

Guard: is great for allowing you to be useful in situations outside of DPSing. I can understand removing it if guard on DPS is a problem (especially in solo ranked) but its one of those things that is fun to be able to do, and adds to class identity. Off guarding can be incredibly rewarding when done properly in pvp and pve. It's one more aspect of the class that's difficult to master, but adds to the fun of playing it.

Endure Pain: Cleanse and DR are useful but the class can still operate without it.

Skills***:

Level 10&15:

Bloodrage: the explosive effect adds a fun aspect to the class but honestly may not see much use. I might try it in pvp to see if I can time an execute, but in PvE everything dies too fast to really make use of these changes unless you're in a MM flashpoint.

level 15 = passive modifiers on shatter. Increase bleed crit chance, or increase initial damage of shatter, or killing an enemy causes bleeds to explode onto nearby targets. Good choices.

Level 20: Again, actives and passives occupying the same slot is odd. We choose between having cyclone slash, or ravage root, or the slow on force scream. I'll explain why this is weird:

In PvP Vengeance players have the choice of double, triple, or quadruple rooting an enemy if necessary by doing Ravage -> Shatter -> Ravage -> rotation || Saber throw -> Leap -> Ravage -> Shatter -> Ravage -> rotation. If a player selects cyclone slash they lose this ability AND a form of soft cc (freezing force). More often than not this root combination doesn't work, but its nice when it does. Again mastering this is like mastering off guarding. It's the nuance in the class that makes playing it rewarding.

I don't personally care about cyclone slash, however it has its place in pve and tank spec pvp for spreading trauma. So, the choice becomes ravage root, or force scream slow, but not both.

Again the main theme here seems to be limiting player functionality. Nothing is added to the class by this change. We only lose.

Level 30:

Solid tier. Choice between 10% damage increase on impale, a 6m range increase and a root, or 20% crit chance increase and a small bleed damage buff. An impactful tier that modifies existing abilities.

Force Skewer will most likely be mandatory since we stand to lose Ravage root.

Level 35:

AOE cc, movement speed on enrage, or

Blood Rites: increase bleed crit chance by 10% and generate 1 rage each time a dot crits. lasts 10 seconds.

We have to choose between an active in Intimidating roar, or Enrage purging movement impairing effects. Again, this choice exists simply to limit player functionality and offer a false sense of choice when we previously had both. Doesn't really add anything to the Juggernaut experience.

Blood rites may be useful in pve.

Level 50:

Mostly a non choice. I'll choose warmonger every time.

Extending roar: almost no one is going to use this. Might be fun with the slow on force scream just to be silly, but that's about it.

Unyielding: Situational. Might become a gimmick with Bloodrage.

Level 60:

War master: basically Unstoppable and War Bringer combined.

Hardened defense, and Payback. Again adding unnecessary competition between useful utilities. Just bake them into the spec and move on. Choosing only one of these divests Juggernauts of too much functionality.

Immune to push pull / movement impairing effects || reduce AOE damage by 60% || reduce cooldown on CC break and gain 10% health. We used to be able to do all of these, now pick 1.

Non choice for me, War master every time in DPS. Hardened defense in tank spec.

Level 70:
Still a dumpster fire. The class can function without endure pain. It feels like a level 50 character without Mad Dash and Saber Reflect. Fundamentally alters how the class plays in a bad way.

There are so many abilities that Saber Reflect can be used against to punish an attacker. It's really one of the few equalizers that this class has. Operatives / Snipers / Sorcs / PTs can do 50% or more of your health in a single opener. We don't have the built in DR to deal with that kind of burst. This is one of the only things that puts us in a position to go toe to toe with those specs. Honestly, most specs. A well timed reflect will make or break a duel.

Level 80:

Again, useless tier. Creating competition for the sake of competition. Mostly a non choice. Everyone is going to go through passion and move on. Just bake pooled Hatred into the spec.

Conclusion:

Story mode, Veteran, and Master Mode flashpoints are largely unaffected. I was able to solo them with Jaesa as my heal companion. I did have to use Enraged Defense and Saber Ward in MM flashpoints on occasion, but I was never in danger of dying. Good players will still be able to clear content. Walked through dailies and heroics.

Some utilities were baked into the spec. Mostly things that are not impactful. Almost every utility that is chosen for PvP (Payback, Warmonger, Overwhelm, Pooled Hatred, Unstoppable, Unshackling Rage, Hardened defense, Through Passion, Through Victory, War Bringer, Thrown Gauntlet, Reckoning all separated) have been forced into a competitive tier against one another or removed (intimidating presence, through power, reckoning in DPS spec) in keeping with the overall theme of this update. Severely limiting player choice and what classes can do.

Overall, the level 10-30 choices are fun for both specs. You basically choose a flat % damage increase, increased crit, or AOE for both Vengeance and Rage. You either modify Impale or Raging Burst. Obliterate gets an option for a shield buff when used.

Everything else is awful and removes the majority of the choice we currently have on live. The game isn't any easier to understand. It's actually more tedious as I have to stop and switch between abilities in between fights instead of just having them on my bars. Also, I can't do as many interesting combos, off-guard, or reflect incoming projectile attacks like you would expect a force user to do. Creativity in battle has been removed from the equation.

It's all good though, I'll just stand behind Han Solo while he reflects everything.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
10.10.2021 , 08:58 AM | #10
Oh! Found it! Yay! Force Choke! \o/
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry