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Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

Savej's Avatar


Savej
07.23.2021 , 11:35 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Toraak View Post
You should never have problems with world quests. I wear gear every time I level with nothing in the shells, except for my MH/OH which I keep upgraded with green barrels/mods/enhancements from the vendor.

Nothing else is needed to faceroll all planetary quests, and class missions.
Since KotFE's broken bolster system, yes. I was referring to when the max level was 50.

ssupercid's Avatar


ssupercid
07.24.2021 , 04:18 AM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post

This game is incredibly watered down now, so it's my hope that some revamping of classes might also be coupled with a revamping of game difficulty.
INTRO:
Tbh, If the combat revamp managed to fix difficulty into a harder range I would support it. However, I don't see how removing player agency through ability pruning can accomplish that in anyway that's fun to play at a high skill level.

Its impossible, 7.0 streamline will only dumb down the already dumbed down combat if it looks like its going to be implemented as in test server. But this time, it will be dumbed down at the functional level instead of being messed up because of mob dmg/health settings aren't tuned well due to broken bolster/lvl-sync system trying to propel everyone to endgame that isn't even that good.

The great skill range in PvP will also be ruined if abilities are pruned/simplified.

Long fight with multiple mobs with many buttons > short fight with less mobs and less buttons.
Multiple DCDs allows one to vary when to increase survivability, Multiple Stuns allows one to do stun management if fighting multiple mobs, etc.
When difficulty was correct, none of these supposedly "bloat" abilities caused any problems, they were vitally useful and still are in actual good GAMEPLAY content.

Depending on the abilities pruned/merged, it will be the ruining of the core high skill combat that is possible in the game but just isn't seen that much because mob difficulty was nerfed ages ago.

If I were to use my Sith Vengeance Jugg for an ACTUAL EXAMPLE, that's a class-spec where I literally use EVERY SINGLE ABILITY. Maybe other classes have useless abilities but I haven't played them extensively since years ago and can really only talk about this as its the one I'm playing rn.



ABILITY BREAKDOWN
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STUNS:
Intimidating Roar/Force Choke/Force Push/Force Scream: 6 sec aoe stun, 4 sec channeled stun, 2 sec push stun, 4 sec stun.

Intimidating Roar: Is great for survivability as it stuns everyone around except the target you attack.

Force Choke: Is great as the channel can be cancelled and an enemy will stay stunned for 4 seconds, can switch to another target in that time and get DPS in or just murder who is being choked.

Force Push: Is a push, vital as its the only push ability for Jugg, self-explanatory.

Force Scream: Works in the Jugg rotation as it does good dmg/crit dmg, can also do a nice stun. Also vital passive that increases it crit over time so that it can charged over for a large dmg atck.

Smartly using these allows a player to fight multiple mobs by switching targets quickly which is fun when accomplished.

Losing any gimps variable combat choice and/or could remove something iconic from the player, IE the Force Choking/Pushing.

STANDARD COMBAT/ROTATION:
Assault: Lvl 1 Basic combat ability, has all the dynamic animations when doing killing blows or swinging. Used to generate rage/hit really low health enemy to not waste rage. Unthinkable to remove.

Viscous Slash: Lvl 1 Basic combat ability, the nice 2-handed overhead slash animation. Early finisher and big dmg ability when early leveling. Used in higher lvl combat when all other attacks on cooldown, def used.

Sundering Assault: The great rage generating and armor sundering attack. Essential. I use this before all other attacks on single-target as it does the armor debuff and gives me good rage.

CORE DMG ROTATION:
Ravage: Large saber damage attack, known by the old cool animation it had. Core single-target dmg-dealing attack to hit when done cooling.

Shatter: Does a DoT and instant damage. More importantly, with right passive, refreshes ravage so you can do Ravage-Shatter-Ravage.

Impale: Another Big Damage Attack, pretty sure does most base dmg as single-target attack.
Used in rotation as Impale-Ravage-Shatter-Ravage or Ravage-Shatter-Ravage-Impale or whenever.

SITUATIONAL/OPENER/CRIT:
Saber Throw: Generates Rage and allows Jug to hit targets and range, lets you kill low health mobs at range. Also iconic animation.

Retaliation: The Jugs unblockable dmg ability. Useful when everything is on cooldown or enemy is on low health and you don't want to miss against an enemy with high defense stat.

Hew: The Jugs critical killer for enemies under 30% health. Also Iconic throw animation that is DIFFERENT from saber throw.

Force Charge: Only Jug ability to close distant from far away, vital for that closing distant and as rage-generating opener.

Enrage: Free Rage generator, great for burst dmg or when you mismanaged your rage-generation in rotation and/or fighting a boss.

Furious Power: Self-buff for more damage, the ability that gives you expendable charges like other classes. Max 4x 25% more damage on next melee attacks. Crucial for setting up your highest dmg rotation.

AOES:
Vengeful Slam/Smash: The Jugg AOE, unremovable.

Sweeping Slashes: The 2nd Jugg AOE, less dmg but can be increased through a utility and is alot more important if you are a Marauder. 2 Lightsabers makes this ability do more dmg so Marauder can do Smash/Sweeping Slashes after each other.

MECHANICAL ABILITIES:
Disruption: Jugg Interrupt. Mechanically essential.
Unleash: Jugg Purge/Breakout from stun ability. Mechanically essential.

DCDs:
Saber Ward: The all important Absorb dmg ability for 12 seconds. ESSENTIAL.

Saber Reflect: The all important REFLECT dmg ability. DIFFERENT FROM SABER WARD as it REFLECTS dmg to opponent and has the ICONIC animation of Reflecting all blaster bolts back to targets. ESSENTIAL.

TANKING ABILITIES:
Enraged Defense: Self-heal for Warrior-Class, useable while stunned so good oh **** pop/when something burst dmgs you. Vital for tanking.

Taunt: Self-explanatory, single-target taunt. Vital as its only one.

Threatening Scream: Group taunt. Vitals its only one.

VERY SITUATIONAL:
Mad Dash: Dashes the character 20 meters forward and does an odd cone attack. I tried to use this for DPS but realized it doesn't generate rage and is very hard to aim for dmg.

However, reading it and the passive that can be attached to it, it is essentially the Jugg's 2nd BREAKOUT ability. The passive "Through Victory" allows it to be used when immobilized and it purges effects.
IE- VITAL ability for good PvP, lets you escape from massive amount of stun/run away from a group of enemies. Also would be a waste to remove this as the custom animation it has is nice, pretty sure the ability was a latecomer to the game in 4.0 though.

Chilling Scream: ESSENTIAL in PvP to slow down nearby opponents. Semi-useful for tanking pve mobs so they can't walk away from you fast.
================================================== =====================================
================================================== =====================================
ABILITY BREAKDOWN



BREAKDOWN CONCLUSION:
All in all, a fictional rotation for a dangerous single target that's only focused on me ends up being....
Saber-Throw^, Force Charge^, Sunder, Smash/Slam/Slash Aoes*, Furious Power^, Ravage, Shatter, Ravage, Impale, Retaliation*, Choke*, Push*
^Only used on opening/setting up most powerful rotation.
*Only used when situational relevant for mob groups/low health/ wanting stun/pushing off cliff/mob groups.

-Force Scream is used whenever its charged up for a crit with passive/a stun is wanted. It can also do good dmg on its own.
-Hew is priority used whenever its pops as available through a passive or an enemy is below 30% health.
-Sunder/basic attack 1 is used to regain rage/re-debuff enemy armor.
-Basic attack 2 "Viscous Slash" is used when one has excess of rage and everything is on cooldown, this def happens many times in long fight.
-All taunts are used in group content if I'm tanking or see a group member low health against a target.
-All DCDs are used when I situationally want them and gauge how badly I'm being damaged by mob group/boss.

How the **** can a good majority of these abilities be removed/merged without screwing things up? Combat would be even more simple than the supposed super "complicated" rotation above. Some say "Muh more buttons bad combat"

However, unique buttons with various cooldowns, uses, and triggers is what makes for the skill-gap and fun combat.

Obviously there is a point where there is too much and a human can't reasonably press the different buttons in time/choose the right ability in the right scenario, but that is clearly not what we have.
Yes, some people with less skill will have more trouble, but we all started at that stage and should be expected to get better as we play more. The game shouldn't be made dumber because some people refuse to/can't learn.




================================================== =================================
Now, I get that some/many Casual "STORY" players only use 5 buttons and thats a 'problem' (ehh not really).
If someone is going to ignore most of the combat system that's honestly their wanted choice.
Its not like the game forces them to learn nor do they want to be forced to learn as many casuals have said they don't like/want "tedious" combat anyway.
Imagine the game was suddenly set to pre-3.0 leveling difficulty, the casual-player uproar would be enormous.

And really, for casuals that is a PERFECTLY VALID GAMEPLAY PREFERENCE/CHOICE, maybe someone just wants to watch cutscenes/rp character and dress them up?
(Very weird to me as someone who wants GAMEPLAY but eh its fine, people like different things)

But, destroying the combat system for all of us that enjoy its little bit of complexity/skill/variability is downright terrible. Especially in the way PTS shows the gating of abilities vs passives, etc.
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Alright, after all that, lets say I considered removing abilities?
What could I even merge/remove on the dev side without making combat too much stupid and simpler?
Maybe they just want the ability bar to be a 'bit' less cluttered so potential new cartel-mar.. *cough*( i mean casuals), are less put off by the oh so traumatizing amount of abilities on their hotbar.

Well ****, its not much to work with.
================================================== ====================================


================================================== ====================================
POSSIBLITY 1: Remove Tanking abilities from DPS Specs? "broader" (Remove all Tank/Heal-spec abilities from DPS specs)
Jugg Ex: Remove Single-target and Group-target taunts, also Enraged Defense.
What's Achieved? About 3 Hotbar Abilities removed.

CON: Ruins the little ability people have left to Hybrid.

Maybe someone want to be a DPS-Spec-Jug that wears a Shield and can semi-TANK.
Worse than an Actual Tank and tanking, but still much better than DPS-equped spec at tanking, and also does more DMG than TANK-only spec, but not more dmg than Actual DPS-equp-spec.

Sure its not optimal but why do people need to play "optimally"? This sorta stuff ofc worked better when skill trees were still around.
Extend this to other classes as you wish. IE- Remove healing abilities from Mercenary?
================================================== =====================================

================================================== =====================================
Possibility 2: Remove the Interrupt & Purge/Breakout abilities from all classes and make them innate hotkeys like Action-Combat MMOs with some type of HUD indicator for them.
Jugg Ex: Remove "Disruption" and "Unleash", *maybe remove "Mad Dash" aswell since its really a breakout.
What's Achieved? About 2 Hotbar Abilities removed.

CON: Actually nothing much, this is doable.
However, I would personally still want a hotbar ability as I play very visually with my quickbar.
I might forget to do interrupt/purge if it were just a hotkey without the current greying out of all abilities and pop-up of highlighted breakout lol.
Also its not like this is actually removing any abilities just hiding it beneath a different mechanic.
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Possibility 3: Do 1 & 2.
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Possibility 4: Do what Bioware is doing and ruin combat by haphazardly... gating certain abilities with passives, removing certain abilities outright, and merging abilities without adding a functional replacement for the ability that lost out in merge. Also maybe do this with 1 & 2 for the ultimate streamline and dumbing down.
IE- one I will keep mentioning for functionality loss on a potet merge, merging saber throw with hew would never work because of their different use cases and functions.
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Do everything they are doing above in only 6 months for all classes, enemies and bosses, while balance the entire game around it lol.

TL;DR: Its impossible to streamline combat without ruining any complexity or skill thats left in it, many of us use all our abilities, Casuals don't care for actual combat anyway; why simplify it, who is it being done for but yourselves in some bid to monetize simplified ability-sets/combat styles?
With pruning, will also reduce the great variety of shiny animations/colors/effects we get to see/use in general combat.






================================================== ==============================
Side Tangent:
[Give me a "Classic Mode" for lvl 1-50 Flashpoints that contain Static Leveled enemies, no gosh darn Health Stations, and unnerfed bosses. I want to be a lvl 8/9 doing the Black Talon and actually have a difficult end boss fight with originally designed 4 PLAYERS or 2 PLAYERS WITH COMPANIONS who are in LVL RANGE difficulty. Lvl 16-17 doing hammer station too, etc. Maybe even no Bolster or ******** lvl-sync but thats a stretch.. Classic Flashpoints could even allow for the reappearance of iconic flashpoint gear instead of whatever that endgame **** is for veteran-mode drops.
I been leveling and noticed veteran flashpoints are stupid and less difficult than pre-4.0, why they ruin difficult content for casuals but then even casuals get a robot-helper mode aswell?? could've just added robot-helper mode thats it.

Also extending veteran/master difficulty options to all class story/planetary arc instances. I would love to play my class missions through a linear path without bolster/lvl sync in a way similar to how it was orig designed because it just worked better and was much more immersive leveling experience. Can't even use good rotations/medpacks against class story bosses. And they are all still hyped up in cutscenes with their taunts as if they were difficulty to fight ruining immersion, infuriating. I'm finishing up Sith Warrior and been disappointed every single boss, can't wait for *********** Baras to die in 5 seconds.
Side Tangent.

================================================== ======================================
Classic 2.x Swtor pls

TevosisHot's Avatar


TevosisHot
07.24.2021 , 04:19 AM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
Since KotFE's broken bolster system, yes. I was referring to when the max level was 50.
Still remember when named enemies that dropped some higher quality loot where actually hard to kill and you had to use all your abilities or how being even a couple levels under your story/planet quest made the game really hard.

Now all you have to do is spam aoe and let your walking demi god of a comp do the rest, it's pathetic. And no wonder people don't learn mechanics or anything really, had a group in mm hammer yesterday no one knew what a cleanse is so wipe central first boss, they did know to "run to the drill" because **** actually playing the game amirite.

Spam vet mode hammer to gear up swtor school graduates. Bah

CzarnyKolor's Avatar


CzarnyKolor
07.24.2021 , 08:24 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
If someone is intelligent enough to acquire a computer that can play this game and actually get into this game, theyíre able to look up a guide, a video of some type, or ask for help from experienced players. So yes, people are only as helpless as they choose to be. I also find it telling that after you were called on your ďdo it for the disabled peopleĒ bit that youíre now singing a different tune and saying ďthat was just me using extreme examples.Ē Your entire line of logic on that particular point basically boils down to ďI canít do it, so no one else must be able to do it legitimately.Ē Since you clearly didnít watch my video and have asked for the crash course, Iíll be happy to provide it to you below. Otherwise if you had watched the video you would see exactly what Iím doing.
Stop with this condescending ********, I've been playing this game as long as you have, and I main Vengeance Juggernaut. This is not my personal problem, this is a biological limitation. The studies show that an average targetted reaction time (which is where you consider what you click, and when, and it doesn't matter if its a keybind, or an icon you click with your mouse) is 450 ms. In the current PvE meta and stats distribution, the GCD for DPS is 400 ms. That means that an average human being is going to struggle with basic rotation, never mind keeping track of dots, resource management, buff management, debuff management, positioning, and DCDs.

This isn't a theory. It isn't something that you can just shrug off with "Well, you can learn that if you want to". It is an actual, existing, measurable, scientifically proven biological limitation. That's why the difference between an average parse and top parse is in thousands of DPS. That's why most people cannot achieve the same results on live bosses as they can on dummies. And it's the reason why most people will never touch content above Story OPS, because if you actually look up those guides, and the likes, all of them will tell you that an absolute minimum expected of a DPS toon is using a 0.4 GDC on a offensive ability, and doing so every time the cooldown ends. Doing just that, and nothing else, is the limit of what an average person can do.

Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
As for your other comments, itís clear to me that you didnít watch my video or read the comments of my OP, and if you did you didnít understand it. Thatís perfectly fine that you didnít. The difference between you and me is that Iím not sitting here trying to force you to place abilities you think are excess on your bars. If you donít like those certain powers you are not forced to use them and can remove them from your bars. I am saying, you should be able to decide for yourself whether you use those powers or not. You on the other hand are saying you donít like them and you donít get how people can make use of all the powers we have, and as such are demanding what YOU have deemed to be excess to be removed. I am saying folks should be able to decide for themselves whether they use those powers or not. You are wanting to make that choice for everyone else and dictate based on your not understanding how certain powers can be used, and your assumption that itís not possible for folks to make use of all powers. So yes, you are in fact trying to dictate to the rest of the community if you truly believe what youíre saying.
And I'm saying that making some of the now necessary abilities completely gone is good for the community in the long run. You've the most popular large media franchise in the world tied to a system that is, frankly, obsolete, and incredibly hard for new people to absorb.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
07.24.2021 , 09:06 AM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
The only reason the game's easy on lower level planets is because of the garbage bolster. My characters that were in their mid-high level 40s in full blues and purples were having plenty of problems with Corellia and class and world quests and that was with more abilities than they are giving us on test. Of course overleveling story content became easier and easier over the years and without bolster reducing people's levels that was easy too. My point is that plentiful dcds aren't the reason solo story content became very easy.
That's true -- dcd's are not the reason. The devs don't want to bar entry to a potential new cash cow / whale by making the base game too difficult.

Quote: Originally Posted by ssupercid View Post
INTRO:
Tbh, If the combat revamp managed to fix difficulty into a harder range I would support it. However, I don't see how removing player agency through ability pruning can accomplish that in anyway that's fun to play at a high skill level.

Its impossible, 7.0 streamline will only dumb down the already dumbed down combat if it looks like its going to be implemented as in test server. But this time, it will be dumbed down at the functional level instead of being messed up because of mob dmg/health settings aren't tuned well due to broken bolster/lvl-sync system trying to propel everyone to endgame that isn't even that good.
I would think the combat team would have to look at how the new utilities system and passives affect all PVE/PVP and make adjustments accordingly, otherwise they are potentially damaging the base game even further. So if the devs can make actual rotations more obvious to noobs and bads (big IF here), then logically, they should be able the adjust combat closer to what it was originally, in terms of difficulty.

Or maybe it's all just wishful thinking on my part, heh.
Beruhl (ง︡'-'︠)ง ~ ADAL-IstyanFiend
8 pugs and a grophet can i borrow a stim?
Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
Thanks Rion Starbrah.

ssupercid's Avatar


ssupercid
07.24.2021 , 09:13 AM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
Stop with this condescending ********, I've been playing this game as long as you have, and I main Vengeance Juggernaut. This is not my personal problem, this is a biological limitation. The studies show that an average targetted reaction time (which is where you consider what you click, and when, and it doesn't matter if its a keybind, or an icon you click with your mouse) is 450 ms. In the current PvE meta and stats distribution, the GCD for DPS is 400 ms. That means that an average human being is going to struggle with basic rotation, never mind keeping track of dots, resource management, buff management, debuff management, positioning, and DCDs.

This isn't a theory. It isn't something that you can just shrug off with "Well, you can learn that if you want to". It is an actual, existing, measurable, scientifically proven biological limitation. That's why the difference between an average parse and top parse is in thousands of DPS. That's why most people cannot achieve the same results on live bosses as they can on dummies. And it's the reason why most people will never touch content above Story OPS, because if you actually look up those guides, and the likes, all of them will tell you that an absolute minimum expected of a DPS toon is using a 0.4 GDC on a offensive ability, and doing so every time the cooldown ends. Doing just that, and nothing else, is the limit of what an average person can do.



And I'm saying that making some of the now necessary abilities completely gone is good for the community in the long run. You've the most popular large media franchise in the world tied to a system that is, frankly, obsolete, and incredibly hard for new people to absorb.
Bruh, can you really not get below 400, are you a trolling? Account #10,691,840 seems like troll
Average human reaction time is not 450ms, maybe 300 but my 60 year old relatives can give sub 300 constantly lol.
https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime


And regardless of reaction time, you don't need top tier DPS from every member to win an OP.
Classic 2.x Swtor pls

Kurj's Avatar


Kurj
07.24.2021 , 09:15 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by TevosisHot View Post
Still remember when named enemies that dropped some higher quality loot where actually hard to kill and you had to use all your abilities or how being even a couple levels under your story/planet quest made the game really hard.

Now all you have to do is spam aoe and let your walking demi god of a comp do the rest, it's pathetic. And no wonder people don't learn mechanics or anything really, had a group in mm hammer yesterday no one knew what a cleanse is so wipe central first boss, they did know to "run to the drill" because **** actually playing the game amirite.

Spam vet mode hammer to gear up swtor school graduates. Bah
That's what I'm talking about as far as solo story content. There is no longer any point to the base game, because there is no need to learn mechanics to complete it. Whether it's bolster or gear inflation, it prevents any sense of accomplishment. Reducing survivability is one way to address that issue, so I'm willing to give this a try.

As far as PVP, I think survivability is too high on average. A superior player should be able to kill a less skilled player quickly, but two or three less skilled players likewise should be able to kill a superior player quickly. I think faster PVP is more fun, so once again I'm willing to give this a try.
Begeren Colony

Elmendra | Ozeranski | Tr'sain | Kurj

TevosisHot's Avatar


TevosisHot
07.24.2021 , 10:37 AM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurj View Post
That's what I'm talking about as far as solo story content. There is no longer any point to the base game, because there is no need to learn mechanics to complete it. Whether it's bolster or gear inflation, it prevents any sense of accomplishment. Reducing survivability is one way to address that issue, so I'm willing to give this a try.

As far as PVP, I think survivability is too high on average. A superior player should be able to kill a less skilled player quickly, but two or three less skilled players likewise should be able to kill a superior player quickly. I think faster PVP is more fun, so once again I'm willing to give this a try.
I don't see how pruning will fix any of this tbh, if they make content too hard they will piss off all the players that are used to being over leveled and carried by comps (let's be honest it's probably the vast majority at this point) if they make it too easy they will piss of people that do actual hard stuff (and I don't know how they expect to balance everything in 6 months either).

If anything I'd like to let stuff as is and tweak cooldowns and utilities rather than **** up the entire game's gameplay, or even make loadouts optional? Wouldnt that be better for people that don't wanna bother learning stuff?

Kurj's Avatar


Kurj
07.24.2021 , 10:57 AM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by TevosisHot View Post
I don't see how pruning will fix any of this tbh, if they make content too hard they will piss off all the players that are used to being over leveled and carried by comps (let's be honest it's probably the vast majority at this point) if they make it too easy they will piss of people that do actual hard stuff (and I don't know how they expect to balance everything in 6 months either).

If anything I'd like to let stuff as is and tweak cooldowns and utilities rather than **** up the entire game's gameplay, or even make loadouts optional? Wouldnt that be better for people that don't wanna bother learning stuff?
I agree with you. I don't know why they think it's worth doing this, but I'm hoping they have a good reason. I'm making assumptions about what their motivations might be based on assumptions I have about why other players do what they do, but we all know what value assumptions have. Interesting to see what everyone thinks about it, though.
Begeren Colony

Elmendra | Ozeranski | Tr'sain | Kurj

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
07.24.2021 , 12:04 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
In the current PvE meta and stats distribution, the GCD for DPS is 400 ms. That means that an average human being is going to struggle with basic rotation, never mind keeping track of dots, resource management, buff management, debuff management, positioning, and DCDs.
How do you get a 400 ms GCD? Every class guide I've read says to stack alacrity to the point where your GCD is somewhere between 1400 ms and 1100 ms. Seriously, there are some world bosses I'd love to solo on my seer if I could increase my output by about 200% without running into serious force management issues.

Quote:
The studies show that an average targetted reaction time (which is where you consider what you click, and when, and it doesn't matter if its a keybind, or an icon you click with your mouse) is 450 ms.

This isn't a theory. It isn't something that you can just shrug off with "Well, you can learn that if you want to". It is an actual, existing, measurable, scientifically proven biological limitation. That's why the difference between an average parse and top parse is in thousands of DPS. That's why most people cannot achieve the same results on live bosses as they can on dummies. And it's the reason why most people will never touch content above Story OPS, because if you actually look up those guides, and the likes, all of them will tell you that an absolute minimum expected of a DPS toon is using a 0.4 GDC on a offensive ability, and doing so every time the cooldown ends. Doing just that, and nothing else, is the limit of what an average person can do.
So first off if you have particular studies in mind please link them, I'd like to see them.

Secondly, "reaction time" depends a lot on the conditions and assumptions.

There's reaction time where you're reacting to a surprise, and have to observe, process, pick a reaction, and the perform the reaction. It's slow, and what you get taught about when learning to drive. I suspect this is the sort of reaction your 450 ms example cites.

There's reaction time where it's not a surprise but you might not have extensive foreknowledge, but you know more or less what the range of reactions might be and are somewhat physically poised to take them. For example a musician sight reading music for the first time, or someone typing a copy of a document or recording a transcript of what someone is saying. This is a lot faster, and times can be on the order of 100 to 250 ms per key press.

Then there's anticipated reaction, where you know what's about to happen and have a sense of when it's going to happen, and are poised to react. In this sort of case reaction times can be in the range of 50 to 200 ms pretty consistently, and if you're willing to risk premature reaction can go down to zero, because your brain is initiating the "reaction" before the event actually occurs.


In MMORPGs a lot of what constitutes "skill" is learning the game well enough so that most of your actions are the second or third types of reaction time. With a GCD of 1.1 to 1.4 seconds putting a hard limit on how many abilities you can use per second, the ability of a average player to press keys once they've learned the basics of the game reasonably well outstrips the limits of the GCD by a factor of 2 to 6. Basically, it doesn't matter if you're not very fast with key presses, because the game limits keypress rate so much that there's not a lot of advantage to being fast at pressing keys. In the settings menu there's an ability queue window setting. Meaning that for every ability that triggers the GCD after the first one in your rotation even if you are waiting on the GCD, you can press the next ability you want to go off up to 1000 ms in advance, and the game will fire it off for you as soon as the GCD expires. So the reaction time needed is to be able to press your next ability at some point inside a 1 second window. Aside from the few abilities that are off of the GCD, being faster than that doesn't do a player much good after the first ability is pressed in a fight.


You have a decent point, it's just a point that due to the design of SWTOR's user interface happens to be almost totally irrelevant to the discussion of whether abilities need to be pruned. Not to mention, that as long as you have at least 3 abilities without longer specific internal cooldowns, that's already enough abilities to saturate a 450 ms reaction time combined with a 1.4 s GCD, so to be consistent that way, you'd need to be asking for the Devs to nerf every class down to a handful of abilities. DPS would be Hit 1, Hit 2, Defend. Tanks would be Hit 1, Hit 2, Defend 1, Defend 2, Taunt. Healers would be Heal 1, Heal 2, Hit 1, Hit 2, Defend 1. So in that approach the whole game should basically only have 12 player abilities total. Reflavored with different names and animations of course, but a total of 12 abilities across all classes in the game is enough to saturate a 450 ms reaction time for all classes and all roles, and the max number any particular role needs is 5 abilities.

If you want an argument that isn't full of giant holes, maybe take the following and run with it:

For a new player there are so many abilities that it takes a long time to learn which ability should be pressed in anticipation of what the game is telling them will occur in the near future. That makes it hard to transition from the very slow "surprise" type of reaction time to the much faster "partial anticipation" sort of reaction time.

You'll still get, a lot of pushback on the basis of "you want to be good at the game without learning to play the game", but at least your argument will be internally consistent and have some actual merit from a game design perspective.

This is figures into a larger discussion of skill floor and skill cap. Skill floor being the minimum competence a player needs to function, and the skill cap being how much room for further development of skill there is after the floor has been reached.

What I think I'm hearing from you is that whether you understand the game mechanics or not, you'd like the floor to be a lot lower than it is right now. Experienced players that have spent a lot of time and effort getting close to the skill cap, don't want it to be lowered, largely because that devalues the effort they put in getting there, but also to an extent because if you know the game well enough to anticipate the next move there's already a lot of down time where there's nothing constructive to do in terms of abilities other than sit there and wait for the GCD to expire and they don't want to spend even more time sitting around and waiting than they already do.

A point that comes along with this, is that skill floor and skill cap (or skill ceiling if you prefer) can be somewhat independent of each other. It's possible to design something that at the basic level is simple, but has tremendous room for growth of skill as you progress. The board game Go is a good example.

If you ask for changes that make SWTOR simpler and easier for beginners, but preserve or even increase complexity and difficultly for skilled players, then it's a lot harder for the skilled players to argue against it, aside from grumbling about not liking change. On the the other hand, if you insist on changes that significantly lower the skill cap, they have a lot of very legitimate things to complain about.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.