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Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Updated thoughts from closed beta founder. they double down on Great Nerfening

ssupercid's Avatar


ssupercid
07.23.2021 , 04:10 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Nee-Elder View Post
Bingo. ^

And now, years later, we see what happens when Developers cater to the lowest-common-denominator (skill wise) transient insatiable gamer , instead of sticking with their original plans (story pillar) and allowing a more appropriate type of loyal & challenge-seeking playerbase slowly (but surely) build their inve$tment for the long-term (10 years) while BioWare kept adding content, QoL , expanded crafting, space exploration, etc. etc.

In other words, if you build it, they (STAR WARS fans) will come....and stay.

Instead we got: If we RE-build it again & again, some will come & spend (Cartel Market) ....but most will go.

Perhaps EA is betting that , because of SWTOR's limited game-engine handicap, the only way to possibly go out with a nice 10th Anniversary *holiday season bang* is to offer the most drastic 'combat revamp' yet.
I think you know what solution I want.. (Obligatory Shill-time)

C L A S S I C

It so clearly solves the constant battle the devs find when having to choose who to cater too.
Classic 2.x Swtor pls

captainbladejk's Avatar


captainbladejk
07.23.2021 , 11:38 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not what is happening. PvP and NiM raiding are what the devs balance this game's combat around. Frankly, the rest of the content in the game is facerollingly easy. (here's me on a level 23 toon on a level 40 planet https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RMi...ew?usp=sharing)
What exactly is the counter argument supposed to be here? Yet again you continue to dodge and deflect without actually engaging in logic and reason. Iím well aware of what theyíre proposing to do but it doesnít change anything or negate any previous statements made. Previous point still stands, PVP is not a valid reason to restrict abilities in PVE or vice versa.

Youíve also still refused to answer the question posed to you previously. If you think the game is so easy, whatís stopping you from taking the so called ďcheeseĒ powers off your bars and playing without them? Create your own ďhard modeĒ of sorts. Same concept as people who choose to play certain content with only the minimum gear you can get in the door with even though they can use better. You already have solutions in front of you that donít have to involve the rest of the community but that doesnít seem to be good enough for your camp. You complain that the game is too easy, yet refuse to remove the abilities you consider to be cheese powers from your bars.

You may think itís easy now, and while I would agree leveling is the easiest itís ever been, that didnít use to be the case. Youíve got it easy compared to how it used to be. Before some major changes were made, you actually had to put in some work to level up. You also had to maintain a set of gear for yourself AND your companions. If you didnít keep up with your companionís gear, may the Force have mercy on your soul. You also had full rotations that were required for story bosses back then. In addition your companions were also limited in the roles they could perform. Some companions were only tank/dps, some were only dps/heals. You didnít have the jack of all trades companions we do today. The stuff youíre doing in that video you would never be able to do in a pre 3.0 setting. And things didnít scale you up/down like it does today. So if you went to a level 40 planet on a level 23 toon, you would get obliterated by those mobs. You wouldnít be saying it was super easy if you had to level up back in those days.

Quote: Originally Posted by CzarnyKolor View Post
You know, restating things ad nauseam does not make you right. People are only as helpless as they chose to be is a flat out lie, because while you can easily learn what is the most optimal way to play the class (And, by the way, using all of your buttons in both PvE and PvP will usually lead to suboptimal play, rather than optimal one), will be affected by your ability to concentrate, and use your agility in tandem with targeted reaction time. There are four pages of factors that affect those abilities, and most of those are beyond our control. I only touched upon the most extreme ones.

Also, I've had a laugh on your "1% can't dictate that the game should be change towards them". You are this one percent. Basically, the only people in this game to ever utilise all 30 buttons are the high-end PvP players, the smallest, most insular part of the player base. In the every other area of the game, and that includes the NiM raiding, to try and utilise all of the buttons is to play sub-optimally. If, playing as either Tank or a DPS, you waste your GDC on Freezing Force, you are playing suboptimally, full stop.

What's more, you literally have a problem with ONE, I will say it again, ONE choice at the current state of the PTS guardian. And that's the Lvl 70 choice between Enure, Blade Blitz and Saber Reflect. If all three of those were available on one the builds that focused on picking the active abilities whenever possible, you would have literally no leg to stand upon, unless you really are so adamant that Freezing Force is absolutely necessary for high level PvE and PvP content (spoilers, it's not, and using it in 99% of the situations is going to be bad for your effectiveness). And that one is a casual fix.

And if you say that you use all 31 buttons Guardian has constantly, and they are all indispensable to your play style, I will flat out say that I don't believe you, and ask you to produce analysis of the combat logs, which is a casual thing to do for anyone who plays this game seriously.
If someone is intelligent enough to acquire a computer that can play this game and actually get into this game, theyíre able to look up a guide, a video of some type, or ask for help from experienced players. So yes, people are only as helpless as they choose to be. I also find it telling that after you were called on your ďdo it for the disabled peopleĒ bit that youíre now singing a different tune and saying ďthat was just me using extreme examples.Ē Your entire line of logic on that particular point basically boils down to ďI canít do it, so no one else must be able to do it legitimately.Ē Since you clearly didnít watch my video and have asked for the crash course, Iíll be happy to provide it to you below. Otherwise if you had watched the video you would see exactly what Iím doing.

First, Iím not using the standard keybinds, not by a long shot. My first bar uses 1-6 for several powers. My second bar has abilities bound to Q E G V Y B N C H, all of which I am able to execute with my left hand. My third bar uses the shift modifier plus a letter key, so shift-Q E G V Y B N C H R T. The fourth bar is shift-1 2 3 4 5 6 X, with x being the key I engage my mount with. Saber Throw and Dispatch are bound to a couple of mouse keys I have on my Razer Naga. My interface is visible towards the end of my video, or a previous post showing what a 30m range looks like. Been using this setup for 11 years and is one of the things I carried over from my WoW days. Everything is kept within range of my one hand. I also have a Logitech G105 keyboard, and G13 Gamepad that can let me bind even more things if I choose. Right now anything else would just be fluff.

Towards the end of my video I also do 2 combat demonstrations where I cycle through my abilities. The first one is purely to show how the rotation on live is a well oiled machine that can go nigh infinitely with little dead time unless we screw it up. I deliberately fouled up the rotation to show this. For the second demonstration I used Kira as a stand-in for DPS and attacked the dummy as though I was engaging a group of mobs in a run as a tank. I also call out what Iím doing for the most part. So if you want to know what Iím doing itís not exactly a secret. I also make clear that I donít always use every ability for every pull as not every ability is needed for every pull. Iím not going to waste ultra powerful abilities on trash mobs when I donít have to. Some abilities are used more than others but they all have their uses. Prime example of using Freezing Force to slow down foes when my taunt is not available. Is it ideal, of course not, but Iíll take a less than ideal situation and ďwasting a globalĒ vs the group dying.

As for your other comments, itís clear to me that you didnít watch my video or read the comments of my OP, and if you did you didnít understand it. Thatís perfectly fine that you didnít. The difference between you and me is that Iím not sitting here trying to force you to place abilities you think are excess on your bars. If you donít like those certain powers you are not forced to use them and can remove them from your bars. I am saying, you should be able to decide for yourself whether you use those powers or not. You on the other hand are saying you donít like them and you donít get how people can make use of all the powers we have, and as such are demanding what YOU have deemed to be excess to be removed. I am saying folks should be able to decide for themselves whether they use those powers or not. You are wanting to make that choice for everyone else and dictate based on your not understanding how certain powers can be used, and your assumption that itís not possible for folks to make use of all powers. So yes, you are in fact trying to dictate to the rest of the community if you truly believe what youíre saying.


Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
The only targets that get stunned are standard npc enemies, which you'll note don't actually run away from you in this game. Does anybody ever use Freezing Force in a solo context? I can't think of single target I'd ever want to slow that would get stunned by Blade Storm. The stun is nice for solo content, where you run into some enemies that'll actually get stunned by it. The slow will be very useful in pvp and neither is very useful in end game pve. (Just like right now Freezing Force is exclusively used in endgame PvE for its movement speed utility, and even then only very rarely).
Speaking hypothetically for a moment, letís assume I were to concede the point on the stun and that this wasnít an issue. It still would not answer the rest of the issues with this proposed change. Itís still completely removing control from me over when it procs by tying it to a rotational ability. From a PVE standpoint it would be throwing what you consider to be an effect that has no use in end game content. So why attach it to Blade Storm? From a PVP standpoint, why would I want this to be on a rotational ability when I can save it for when I need it? Why would I want to have less control over the slow effect? In World of Warcraft as one example, the interrupt for Enhancement Shaman used to be tied to an ability known as Earth Shock. This meant that if I wanted to save my interrupt for a critical moment in PVE or PVP either one, they had to gimp their rotation and damage output, or pray the ability was off cooldown when they needed. More often than not it wasnít. To give control over the interrupt and prevent issues with rotations, the abilities were separated. It gave better control over the character. Same concept as with Freezing Force in SWTOR and why it needs to remain separate from Blade Storm.

As for it being useless, does no one on this forum know how to kite a mob, be it in end game content or solo content? Slows help to do exactly that. Thereís also been plenty of times as a tank where Iíve used slows to help pull mobs off people until I could properly taunt them. No itís not always perfect but it functions. Slows can also help ranged DPS keep mobs at distance. While it generally doesnít work on bosses, it does for most trash mobs. It boggles my mind that no one seems to think of this.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
We already have a root with that large a range on live right now. Roots are generally a lot better than slows for what Juggernauts will want them for, chasing down targets.
This is the equivalent of saying that we have no need of fire extinguishers because we have fire departments. While fire departments can generally deal with most fires, itís not always practical to utilize them for every single fire, especially when we can stop it with an extinguisher. If I can throw out a slow really quickly and catch up to my target, this allows me to save the root for another target, or later on in the fight. Or as another example, if I can throw a minor defensive ability to tank a certain mechanic, why would I waste a much more powerful ability when I donít need to? Or to give a real life example, why would I wrap my whole arm up in bandages for a small cut when I can get the job done just as easily with a band-aid?

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
The reason I'm coming at this from a PvP perspective, is that if we're talking about slows and chasing targets down, that is already a PvP context. Mobs in this game don't run away from, as a melee character there really never is a reason to slow anything in PvE as far as I'm aware. I'm digging through my memory and I can't think of a single flashpoint or operation where I've ever used Freezing Force for its slowing effect.
Talking about slows and chasing targets does NOT automatically confer a pvp context on something. That line of logic starts with the automatic assumption that there can only be one use for certain abilities, and thatís not the case. Again I ask, does no one on here actually try to kite mobs around? As I said above, it may not always work for a boss, but there are times when kiting mobs is necessary. In solo content, if I can keep a bunch of mobs at distance with slows and nuke them from a distance without having to risk death, why would I not? If I am in a flashpoint that doesnít have a tank and I am a squishy ranged toon, why would I not kite the mobs?

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Well yeah it's all based on what ifs, because we're looking at a completely unfished product. I'm not saying not to criticize it, you definitely should. But it will change, and if we give concrete and useful feedback, it might change for the better. For instance a lot of people (myself included) feel that Saber Reflect and Saber throw are core parts of the Juggernauts identity as a class and should not be optional choices (sometimes forcing players to forgo them in favour of other abilities). And they've acknowledged that criticism. Will something actually happen with that? We'll have to wait and see, but PTS version this early on will definitely change plenty.
No one is saying that this is the finished product, and no one is debating theyíre wanting to change things. They asked for feedback on the product as it appears right now. As it appears right now, in my book itís a hot dumpster fire. Otherwise I hate this attitude that some people have that think we need to know every little minute detail before giving them the feedback they asked for. They made clear this is what they intend to do to other classes and they want to reduce the amount of abilities we have. Based off what they showed us on this first bit of PTS, as well as their own statements of what they intend to do, we can make an informed inference they intend to gut the other classes just like they do the Guardian/Jugg. Again this isnít just people going on about nothing, but speaking based on the info weíve been given and their own statements. Dressing it up in fancy language doesnít negate the fact that we will see less abilities and less customization if this goes live as is right now. You donít create more choice by stealing choice. I really donít understand how thatís so hard for some people grasp. If they tell you theyíre going to take a bunch of powers from you, their implementation shows theyíre stealing a bunch of them from you, and they intend to do it for all classes, how many times do they have to make their intentions clear before people believe them?

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
As for the ability toolkits, they're likely still working on how exactly to do the interface for picking abilities. Right now we're stuck with the presets, which is very annoying, but we will definitely get the option to mix and match ourselves at some point on the PTS, as this is the clearly stated goal for the update.
Except theyíve more than made clear how they want it to work, and it will largely be presets unless something changes. Again that is not customization, but choosing from a set of pre-determined abilities. Maybe that will change, maybe it wonít, but we canít go purely off ďmaybe theyíll do XĒ as itís little more than theory. Theory is fine for speculation purposes, but means nothing if those theories never pan out. Again they asked for this feedback and right now itís a hot dumpster fire that does more harm than it ever could good.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I tried, but I just can't let this thing about Blade Storm go. Your problem with this change as far as ranged is concerned is completely nonsensical. You talk about this in your original post and video, how they're making the slow useful outside of a 10m range. But this makes no sense whatsoever, as Blade Storm's range is larger than Freezing Force, which is what applies the slow right now. Freezing Force is useless if you can't get within 8m of your target. In this one aspect, they are making the ability objectively better. Yet you feel the need to bring this up twice in the video.

Also, as a little aside, you keep calling it a melee ability. And maybe this is a US/EU difference in lingo, but I've never heard someone use melee to describe a 10m range ability. When people say melee range they generally mean 4m range, the range of the actual saber strike abilities in this game, at least in my experience. And I think this is a distinction worth making, because that seems to be where the confusion is coming from. If they put the slow on a melee ability, it would be a nerf to the range, but putting it on Blade Storm actually increases the range.
2m isnít the massive upgrade you think it is, while it is a minor upgrade to Freezing Force, itís not an upgrade to Blade Storm. 10m is not large distance and regardless of what form it takes. Also theyíre not going to let us keep the ability that turns Blade Storm into a 30m range. If they did then that would make the ability objectively the best slow in game. Whether you keep the abilities separate and let Freezing Force be the slow, or you combine it with Blade Storm, if you canít get into that 10m or 8m range, itís a dead and useless power.

Most ranged characters can sit well outside the 10m range and blast targets into oblivion. A good ranged person can keep a melee opponent at distance and take them out. If they steal half of our toolkits as it looks like theyíre going to do, combining Blade Storm and Freezing Force isnít going to be worth a thing as half of the mobility abilities will be disappearing with it. At that point it will be giving ranged toons a massive PVP advantage, and severely hampering the chances of melee getting into content on the PVE side of things. If you can have a bunch of ranged guys sit back and just blast things into oblivion, what would be the need for a melee DPS? If you want to chalk this up as 2 competing theories of PVP then fair enough, but it doesnít change my stance nor does it change the fact that this wouldnít be the upgrade youíre making it out to be.

Kurj's Avatar


Kurj
07.23.2021 , 03:43 PM | #103
I like the idea of faster kill times in PVP. I also miss the days when completing your class story required some basic knowledge of the class and its abilities. So, if the revamp succeeds in reducing survivability across the board, I would be a happy camper.

But, in terms of whether this move makes sense at this point in the game's lifecycle, I don't understand why they would go to the effort. Numbers have been dwindling for years now, and I don't see that changing in a fundamental way. The engine is terrible, the game is outdated, and the only reason we Star Wars nerds stick around is because it's the only game in town.

If it were my call, I wouldn't risk alienating the existing playerbase of a 10-year-old game in a genre that seems to have past its prime. But, here's to hoping the devs know something we don't. I'd love to see this game get popular again.
Begeren Colony

Elmendra | Ozeranski | Tr'sain | Kurj

Savej's Avatar


Savej
07.23.2021 , 04:25 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurj View Post
I like the idea of faster kill times in PVP. I also miss the days when completing your class story required some basic knowledge of the class and its abilities. So, if the revamp succeeds in reducing survivability across the board, I would be a happy camper.

But, in terms of whether this move makes sense at this point in the game's lifecycle, I don't understand why they would go to the effort. Numbers have been dwindling for years now, and I don't see that changing in a fundamental way. The engine is terrible, the game is outdated, and the only reason we Star Wars nerds stick around is because it's the only game in town.

If it were my call, I wouldn't risk alienating the existing playerbase of a 10-year-old game in a genre that seems to have past its prime. But, here's to hoping the devs know something we don't. I'd love to see this game get popular again.
Reducing kill times in pvp is about reducing healing and tanking/taunt mitigation.

From what I've seen it's more likely that more players will be playing tanks in pvp because they are going to be much better in duels and fights without healers. To an extent those conditions exist now, they are getting worse with 7.0. In the case with more tanks, kill times will not be going down in pvp.

Kurj's Avatar


Kurj
07.23.2021 , 04:40 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
Reducing kill times in pvp is about reducing healing and tanking/taunt mitigation.

From what I've seen it's more likely that more players will be playing tanks in pvp because they are going to be much better in duels and fights without healers. To an extent those conditions exist now, they are getting worse with 7.0. In the case with more tanks, kill times will not be going down in pvp.
Eliminating DCDs fits both of those criteria, so I think my original point stands.

Skanks have been around forever. I don't think we have enough information yet to assume it's going to get worse due to 7.0.
Begeren Colony

Elmendra | Ozeranski | Tr'sain | Kurj

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
07.23.2021 , 05:20 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
Reducing kill times in pvp is about reducing healing and tanking/taunt mitigation.

From what I've seen it's more likely that more players will be playing tanks in pvp because they are going to be much better in duels and fights without healers. To an extent those conditions exist now, they are getting worse with 7.0. In the case with more tanks, kill times will not be going down in pvp.
Time to kill is fine at the moment. It gives you enough time to react and employ some type of counter play. This goes double for 8v8s. If we're all dying like it's a match of "one shot one kill" on Call of Duty then tanks and healers are going to become even more important. Even moreso if DPS classes are going to be purged of their utility.

Then comes the monumental task of trying to balance melee vs ranged. If we're all dying immediately and have no DCDs, damage output is going to need to be adjusted for time on target. Accuracy debuff times, ect.

There's no way a rework of this magnitude is going to be completed in 6 months and be any good.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
07.23.2021 , 06:03 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
What exactly is the counter argument supposed to be here? Yet again you continue to dodge and deflect without actually engaging in logic and reason. Iím well aware of what theyíre proposing to do but it doesnít change anything or negate any previous statements made. Previous point still stands, PVP is not a valid reason to restrict abilities in PVE or vice versa.

Youíve also still refused to answer the question posed to you previously. If you think the game is so easy, whatís stopping you from taking the so called ďcheeseĒ powers off your bars and playing without them? Create your own ďhard modeĒ of sorts. Same concept as people who choose to play certain content with only the minimum gear you can get in the door with even though they can use better. You already have solutions in front of you that donít have to involve the rest of the community but that doesnít seem to be good enough for your camp. You complain that the game is too easy, yet refuse to remove the abilities you consider to be cheese powers from your bars.

You may think itís easy now, and while I would agree leveling is the easiest itís ever been, that didnít use to be the case. Youíve got it easy compared to how it used to be. Before some major changes were made, you actually had to put in some work to level up. You also had to maintain a set of gear for yourself AND your companions. If you didnít keep up with your companionís gear, may the Force have mercy on your soul. You also had full rotations that were required for story bosses back then. In addition your companions were also limited in the roles they could perform. Some companions were only tank/dps, some were only dps/heals. You didnít have the jack of all trades companions we do today. The stuff youíre doing in that video you would never be able to do in a pre 3.0 setting. And things didnít scale you up/down like it does today. So if you went to a level 40 planet on a level 23 toon, you would get obliterated by those mobs. You wouldnít be saying it was super easy if you had to level up back in those days.
This is kind of your schtick isn't it? To make long-winded paragraphs across multiple posts touting unfounded assumptions, then refer people to your previous post in another thread that reply to a different poster. Am I now supposed to break down your posts sentence by sentence?

I'm not taking any abilities off of my bars, nor am I removing my gear. When I play a game, I use every tool available to me.

I've been around since launch, so you don't have to tell me how the game used to be. I used to solo the old H2's and H4's to be better at my class(es). And a level 23 on a level 40 planet would have been mobbed by... mobs... at 50-70 meters because high level mobs detect low level toons at greater range. This game is incredibly watered down now, so it's my hope that some revamping of classes might also be coupled with a revamping of game difficulty.

I try to be quick and concise in my posts. You're not obliged to read them, nor am I obliged to read a treatise on nothing, especially on a video game forum.
Beruhl (ง︡'-'︠)ง ~ ADAL-IstyanFiend
8 pugs and a grophet can i borrow a stim?
Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
Thanks Rion Starbrah.

Savej's Avatar


Savej
07.23.2021 , 07:04 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
This is kind of your schtick isn't it? To make long-winded paragraphs across multiple posts touting unfounded assumptions, then refer people to your previous post in another thread that reply to a different poster. Am I now supposed to break down your posts sentence by sentence?

I'm not taking any abilities off of my bars, nor am I removing my gear. When I play a game, I use every tool available to me.

I've been around since launch, so you don't have to tell me how the game used to be. I used to solo the old H2's and H4's to be better at my class(es). And a level 23 on a level 40 planet would have been mobbed by... mobs... at 50-70 meters because high level mobs detect low level toons at greater range. This game is incredibly watered down now, so it's my hope that some revamping of classes might also be coupled with a revamping of game difficulty.

I try to be quick and concise in my posts. You're not obliged to read them, nor am I obliged to read a treatise on nothing, especially on a video game forum.
The only reason the game's easy on lower level planets is because of the garbage bolster. My characters that were in their mid-high level 40s in full blues and purples were having plenty of problems with Corellia and class and world quests and that was with more abilities than they are giving us on test. Of course overleveling story content became easier and easier over the years and without bolster reducing people's levels that was easy too. My point is that plentiful dcds aren't the reason solo story content became very easy.

Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
07.23.2021 , 08:31 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
The only reason the game's easy on lower level planets is because of the garbage bolster. My characters that were in their mid-high level 40s in full blues and purples were having plenty of problems with Corellia and class and world quests and that was with more abilities than they are giving us on test. Of course overleveling story content became easier and easier over the years and without bolster reducing people's levels that was easy too. My point is that plentiful dcds aren't the reason solo story content became very easy.
You should never have problems with world quests. I wear gear every time I level with nothing in the shells, except for my MH/OH which I keep upgraded with green barrels/mods/enhancements from the vendor.

Nothing else is needed to faceroll all planetary quests, and class missions.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
07.23.2021 , 09:41 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by captainbladejk View Post
As for it being useless, does no one on this forum know how to kite a mob, be it in end game content or solo content? Slows help to do exactly that. Thereís also been plenty of times as a tank where Iíve used slows to help pull mobs off people until I could properly taunt them. No itís not always perfect but it functions. Slows can also help ranged DPS keep mobs at distance. While it generally doesnít work on bosses, it does for most trash mobs. It boggles my mind that no one seems to think of this.
I've never been in the situation where I wanted to kite an enemy that could be slowed. The only enemies worth kiting as a melee are bosses that are immune to slows anyway. For a ranged character kiting makes sense, for a Juggernaut it simpl does not. Most of your important abilities are 4m ranged. Are you going around kiting random trash mobs just to slow people down? Freezing Force is a waste of a global cooldown in nearly every pve scenario.
Quote:
This is the equivalent of saying that we have no need of fire extinguishers because we have fire departments. While fire departments can generally deal with most fires, itís not always practical to utilize them for every single fire, especially when we can stop it with an extinguisher. If I can throw out a slow really quickly and catch up to my target, this allows me to save the root for another target, or later on in the fight. Or as another example, if I can throw a minor defensive ability to tank a certain mechanic, why would I waste a much more powerful ability when I donít need to? Or to give a real life example, why would I wrap my whole arm up in bandages for a small cut when I can get the job done just as easily with a band-aid?
Please read my post again. You're completely missing the point. I'm not saying we don't need a slow with range because we already have a root. I'm saying that if we already have a root with 30m range, what makes you think it so unlikely that they'll make a 30m ranged slow? Surely if that would be so crazy strong, we wouldn't have something even stronger. (So much stronger that you consider it appropriate comparing it to the difference between a fire extinguisher and a fire department mind you).
Quote:
Talking about slows and chasing targets does NOT automatically confer a pvp context on something. That line of logic starts with the automatic assumption that there can only be one use for certain abilities, and thatís not the case. Again I ask, does no one on here actually try to kite mobs around? As I said above, it may not always work for a boss, but there are times when kiting mobs is necessary. In solo content, if I can keep a bunch of mobs at distance with slows and nuke them from a distance without having to risk death, why would I not? If I am in a flashpoint that doesnít have a tank and I am a squishy ranged toon, why would I not kite the mobs?
As a ranged toon sure I guess, but Juggernauts aren't ranged toons. Juggernauts couldn't nuke wet toilet paper from a distance. See if they were messing with slows on say a Sorcerer, sure that'd make sense. But we're not.
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Except theyíve more than made clear how they want it to work, and it will largely be presets unless something changes. Again that is not customization, but choosing from a set of pre-determined abilities. Maybe that will change, maybe it wonít, but we canít go purely off ďmaybe theyíll do XĒ as itís little more than theory. Theory is fine for speculation purposes, but means nothing if those theories never pan out. Again they asked for this feedback and right now itís a hot dumpster fire that does more harm than it ever could good.
That's simply false. They've very clearly stated the intention is to have you make the choice in every tier, and giving you the option to save your own presets. Right now, because we're in an early testing version, they've made the presets to give an idea of the changes they're making. This is not how it's intended to ship. Bioware stated the following:
"For this PTS phase, you will only be able to choose static builds we have chosen for you. Future phases will allow you to more freely choose various abilities and passives as you level."
The fact that you somehow missed this is somewhat surprising considering the amount of time you've put into this. Maybe spend a little more time carefully reading and a little less just making things up.
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2m isnít the massive upgrade you think it is, while it is a minor upgrade to Freezing Force, itís not an upgrade to Blade Storm. 10m is not large distance and regardless of what form it takes. Also theyíre not going to let us keep the ability that turns Blade Storm into a 30m range. If they did then that would make the ability objectively the best slow in game. Whether you keep the abilities separate and let Freezing Force be the slow, or you combine it with Blade Storm, if you canít get into that 10m or 8m range, itís a dead and useless power.
It's not a massive upgrade, but that's missing the point. You are complaining about the range like it's a downgrade. It simply factually isn't a downgrade as far as range is concernd, it's an upgrade (albeit a small one).

Yes sure, Blade Sorm is useless outside of 10m range. That's still better than it is right now on live with Freezing Force, which is dead outisde 8m range. I honestly don't understand how you can even bring up the range thing as an issue with the changes when the range is objectively getting (slightly) better.
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Most ranged characters can sit well outside the 10m range and blast targets into oblivion. A good ranged person can keep a melee opponent at distance and take them out. If they steal half of our toolkits as it looks like theyíre going to do, combining Blade Storm and Freezing Force isnít going to be worth a thing as half of the mobility abilities will be disappearing with it. At that point it will be giving ranged toons a massive PVP advantage, and severely hampering the chances of melee getting into content on the PVE side of things. If you can have a bunch of ranged guys sit back and just blast things into oblivion, what would be the need for a melee DPS? If you want to chalk this up as 2 competing theories of PVP then fair enough, but it doesnít change my stance nor does it change the fact that this wouldnít be the upgrade youíre making it out to be.
Just let me be clear once again, I never said it's a massive upgrade. I said the range specifically is an upgrade (and it objectively is). So complaining about the range makes absolutely no sense at all.
As for ranged characters being able to kite melee characters. Well that depends on their toolkit. I'm pretty sure ranged characters too will get a changed around kit. They too will lose abilities, and thus be not as good at kiting. Will this balance out entirely to a state where both the melee and ranged dps will evenly compete? Well that will depend on the exact state of the coming changes to other classes.

There's nothing wrong with expressing concern with the loss of mobility and how it'll affect kiting, but to just assume that the ranged dps's ability to kite will stay unchanged is a bit silly.