I also have not seen a dev posting on reddit, so it's also irrelevant, but I think the point was you don't have to log in to reddit or have an invite to the sub to read what is posted. Just like I don't have a Twitter account, but I can still look at what BW posts on Twitter.

Fair enough. I don’t use twitter at all and never look cause I hate it and Facebook (Thank god he’s not posting on Facebook).

I think you know I was anti discord for a while because of my first experience there and being bullied out of the channel. But since I’ve been incognito there for awhile to read what’s said, I can say I’m glad Chris has somewhere he can communicate with us because I’m assuming from his activity there, that Bioware gate keep the official channels like the forums. Imagine if everything he posts here has to go through Musco first? That alone would be a reason he hardly posts on the forums.

I think discord is giving us more communication than we’ve had in years. It actually feels like Chris is a human being and not only a corporate dev with no opinions. That is something that’s been missing on the official channels for a long while. I think we all forget (myself included) that there is a real person on the other side of the screen.

IMO, I think the majority of the communication problems we seem to have with Official Bioware on the forums is because corporate gate keeps it with internal policies.

It’s the only thing that makes sense after all these years and so many people who’ve tried to open up communications, only to be shut down after a small period of time.

Even Jackie seems to be slowly posting less and I can see her being trapped or restrained by the same system that stopped all those before her.

Not sure if you use discord or not, but it can be 1000x more toxic at times than here on the forums and there is no filter.

All about what one considers or registers as " poison" really. I personally don't give a dang if people drop some F words or whatnot when chatting. In my books, cloak, dagger and various exclusion campaigns going around here is infinitely worse than some unfiltered bathroom wall of gas station-tier of drivel. (...quality and quantity being variablles here ofc.. I dont mind a bathroom wall, but I don't like getting buried underneath an army of bathrooms with walls:p)

The whole “it’s too toxic on the forums for the devs” is a silly argument for anyone to make when comparing to discord channels.

I’m not saying it’s doesn’t get toxic here, but let’s be realistic in this discussion. If the toxicity that can happen on discord doesn’t drive Chris away, why would the toxicity here drive him away?

Regardless of what registers to you or me as venom, it is prolly perfectly abundant on discord too. I think different nature of forums and discord is relevant with this. Everything on forums has certain lasting quality by design. Threads can last years or even decades. Meanwhile, busy discord has a very short memory. Poison here is like pouring it to an inland lake. Poison on disc is like pouring it to a rapidly flkowing river. From pov of somebody on the shore, there is a big difference there. Additionally, from pov of a BW dev, unofficial disc isn't his house. If he sees or participates to some..sabre rattling contest, it doesn't feel like his mess that is his to clean. If that stuff happens here, it is different. This is his house and all. So being elsewhere is prolly relaxing and liberating. Which is super relevant when we speak of a dev who posts this stuff voluntarily and possibly on his free time.

I’m crossing my fingers that this thread isn’t going to jeopardise his involvement on discord.

If I had to place 10 chips worth of bets..

6 chips on "absolutely nothing will change"

3 chips on "this thread just thisiswhywecanthavenicethings'd BW devs to silence on discord."

1 chip on "same as above, and they all start enjoying of and contriobuting to wonderful posts on these forums instead."

These forums can be vicious to a surprising degree.

Just like anything on the wonderful interwebs, it all depends upon how thick (or thin) one's ultra defensive skin is.

As someone who was somewhat of a 'Dev' (QA-Staff & basic code bug fixes) on another 'STAR WARS' mmo emulator i'm not allowed to mention here by name, the solution to toxicity & misinformation isn't to duck & run to another platform. The solution is to tackle it head-on and RE-engage in a better (or different) way.

My guess would be Chris (and other BioWare Devs) either don't have the time to devote such re-engagement here on the official forums...or....they don't have the authorization (from EA) .

Either way, a vacuum was created as a result. And what typically fills a vacuum on the internet in the absence of solid true information? You guessed it: speculation, conspiracy-theories, anger, unrest. etc. etc. etc. (aka toxic vocal minority rule) .

---

Though I'm not sure how relevant or visible this undergrowth is to a BW poster who drops by once in a blue moon.

The majority of SWTOR gamers never even bother to read the LAUNCHER, much less spend hours reading thru these forums (official or not) .

Which is 1 of the reasons why most Fleet & planets 'genchat' in-game is flooded with "noobie obvious questions" amidst the slew of spam & trolls.

The good part about that is, usually, it demonstrates how a MMO game Community can serve to help (or harm) eachother within the very game they're playing.

At the end of the day though, it sure is helpful when you can answer those types of questions by pointing to an official BioWare Dev post.

Information---REAL information---is very powerful.

---

In discord, devs have at least a modest change at being part of a normal conversation.

Not sure how many discord servers you've been in but umm, the "normal" convos reduce to vicious toxic levels extremely fast very very often. (aka the usual "hardcore" Keyboard Courageous )

Of course, just like any platform, it also very much depends upon the moderator.

Fair enough. I don’t use twitter at all and never look cause I hate it and Facebook (Thank god he’s not posting on Facebook).

 

I think you know I was anti discord for a while because of my first experience there and being bullied out of the channel. But since I’ve been incognito there for awhile to read what’s said, I can say I’m glad Chris has somewhere he can communicate with us because I’m assuming from his activity there, that Bioware gate keep the official channels like the forums. Imagine if everything he posts here has to go through Musco first? That alone would be a reason he hardly posts on the forums.

 

I think discord is giving us more communication than we’ve had in years. It actually feels like Chris is a human being and not only a corporate dev with no opinions. That is something that’s been missing on the official channels for a long while. I think we all forget (myself included) that there is a real person on the other side of the screen.

 

IMO, I think the majority of the communication problems we seem to have with Official Bioware on the forums is because corporate gate keeps it with internal policies.

It’s the only thing that makes sense after all these years and so many people who’ve tried to open up communications, only to be shut down after a small period of time.

Even Jackie seems to be slowly posting less and I can see her being trapped or restrained by the same system that stopped all those before her.

I guess I come from an environment where I do have to be very careful to separate my personal opinions and statements to avoid giving an appearance of anything official. Thus, perhaps I'm oversensitive to the concept of private statement from a known employee.

It's my humble opinion that, if Chris feels BW is overly limiting in what they choose to discuss, he should take that up with BW. If that is his opinion, I happen to agree, BW sucks at discourse and handling criticism, even constructive criticism.

I think more discussion on BWs part would be great; I also feel that presenting yourself using the company name in your tag is giving the appearance of official endorsement, intended or not.

Since its an unofficial discord it's his own decision if he posts something or not.

 

What I don't like though, is the fact that the ranked PvP community pretty much abuses that and pings him like all the time, and not even for important stuff that is. I really wonder why they don't get banned for pinging a BW official anyway. Last time I checked the PvP section one guy even threatend another to ping Chris so that he can report him when they had their usual *****fight going on.

 

I really like that BioWare Officials chilling in these discords. Makes it a little bit more familiar. Not even Blizzard does that. But it's really not surprising that BW is not communicating with the playerbase at all when people like the ranked community and their childish fights and flames against each other, or the 0815 "WHY IS THIS NOT FIXED??!?!?!111" abuses it to waste the Dev's time.

why complain about something that has no affect on you. Maybe these guys have real questions other people cant answer. Seems like this community doesnt like PvP players. Let me remid you of something, this game was designed as Light VS Dark. PvP should always be the most important thing.

Just like anything on the wonderful interwebs, it all depends upon how thick (or thin) one's ultra defensive skin is.

 

As someone who was somewhat of a 'Dev' (QA-Staff & basic code bug fixes) on another 'STAR WARS' mmo emulator i'm not allowed to mention here by name, the solution to toxicity & misinformation isn't to duck & run to another platform. The solution is to tackle it head-on and RE-engage in a better (or different) way.

 

My guess would be Chris (and other BioWare Devs) either don't have the time to devote such re-engagement here on the official forums...or....they don't have the authorization (from EA) .

 

Either way, a vacuum was created as a result. And what typically fills a vacuum on the internet in the absence of solid true information? You guessed it: speculation, conspiracy-theories, anger, unrest. etc. etc. etc. (aka toxic vocal minority rule) .

 

---

 

 

The majority of SWTOR gamers never even bother to read the LAUNCHER, much less spend hours reading thru these forums (official or not) .

 

Which is 1 of the reasons why most Fleet & planets 'genchat' in-game is flooded with "noobie obvious questions" amidst the slew of spam & trolls.

 

The good part about that is, usually, it demonstrates how a MMO game Community can serve to help (or harm) eachother within the very game they're playing.

 

At the end of the day though, it sure is helpful when you can answer those types of questions by pointing to an official BioWare Dev post.

 

Information---REAL information---is very powerful.

---

 

 

Not sure how many discord servers you've been in but umm, the "normal" convos reduce to vicious toxic levels extremely fast very very often. (aka the usual "hardcore" Keyboard Courageous )

 

Of course, just like any platform, it also very much depends upon the moderator.

"Which is 1 of the reasons why most Fleet & planets 'genchat' in-game is flooded with "noobie obvious questions" amidst the slew of spam & trolls.

there is tons of information on the internet, these "noobies" can use the internet im guesing. There is a lot of elitism going on here. Remember, youre only playing a video game, and people like you drive the playerbase away.

why complain about something that has no affect on you. Maybe these guys have real questions other people cant answer. Seems like this community doesnt like PvP players. Let me remid you of something, this game was designed as Light VS Dark. PvP should always be the most important thing.

Actually, the "light vs dark" is relatively new, in the actual span of the game. It's not like, at launch, you couldn't play a light side Sith Warrior, or a Dark Side Jedi. The only thing the alignment really meant back then was what gear you could get and use from the special vendors. PvP had, and has, nothing to do with it.

Unfettered access to a game dev on a private server affects all of us. Read the OP again for one example of how much communication is going on there as compared to how much communication, from the same person, is going on here. Everyone that plays the game can read these forums, but you have to be a member to join the private chats they're getting to have, and if, as postulated in the post you quoted, a player is threatening to get someone banned because they have access to a dev privately, then there is a very real problem that needs to be addressed.

, this game was designed as Light VS Dark.

 

PvP should always be the most important thing.

Now that ^ i can agree with.

(Well, maybe not the "most" important thing, but certainly ONE of the most important. It is 'Star WARS' after all. )

----

 

, these "noobies" can use the internet im guesing.

 

There is a lot of elitism going on here. Remember, youre only playing a video game, and people like you drive the playerbase away.

Your 'post history' indicates you're probably just trolling , but just in case you're not....

On the contrary , i've personally been responsible for inviting over 250 subscribers (who came with me from SWG) here into SWTOR , over half of which are still here loyally subbed 9+ years later.

Secondly, i'm 1 of the few people in 'genchat' who consistantly ANSWERS all those aforementioned "noobie" questions. Not to mention all the many server events i've held over the years (like this one for example) , as well as all the 100's of guilds i've grouped with and guided along in Ops & such since 2011 beta.

So yeah, you're welcome to call some of my forum posts condescending or whatever but otherwise: i'm 1 of the helpers within our community, not the hurters. Spend any time on 'Star Forge' server and you'll see for yourself.

Not sure why you tried to snipe at me so hard there lol but next time i'd suggest doing some research first on whom you're quoting before flaming someone.

BTW, some players in our Discord-server-without-a-BioWare-Dev (who lurk in this thread but don't reply) wanted me to let you know that it's often people like YOU who drive players away, with your whole trolling usage of internet hot-button tropes like "elitism" accusations. Hmm, now who do we see about that?

 

And let's be honest, the last change the devs made based off the opinions of these forums was the deserter lockout + win-only rewards in regs which everyone but TrixxieTriss despises.

I do despise those changes. I don’t know why you think I don’t? I’ve been suggesting BioWare change them since last year. It’s one reason Ive stopped pvping.

I do want to remind everyone that if you are experiencing harassment in-game, please report it. Violations of our Rules of Conduct are not permitted.

 

Yeah about that..

I assume these forums count as official platform under Rules of Conduct too, right?

When it comes to harassment, this is how it goes on these forums, based on my 1st hand experiences:

Folks moderating these forums are pretty quick to spot overt harassment and remove such messages. However, amazingly, you* do nothing that would actually make the person doing the harassment stop. Same person can peck his target at peace for months to an end here. You clearly recognize the personal attacks or harassment as such - you remove the violating posts. I bet some slaps on the wrists happen in the process. However, amazingly, you do nothing that would make the person doing it to stop.People on these forums can do extremely vicioous ad hominem pretty freely here. Harasser posts latest attacks on, say, Friday. Posts might get removed on Monday..big deal. It has already been seen and read anyway. It doesn't cost anything for the harasser to make new posts bit later. That's perfectly adequate timeframe in calculations of the harsasser. - Just post more of that same stuff next week.

Also based on 1st hand experience, you* are extremely efficient and absolutely brutal when you spot somebody posting about topics you don't like. If poster is running with a wrong enough topic,it hits a stonewall right there. Stuff can go from 100 mph to 0 extremely fast, efficiently and permanently here. You make sure person who just hit stonewall never posts about the wrong enough topic again. You can make sure it stops right there and then, for good.

^Posts that are essentially all about targeted harassment doesn't get such treatment at all. To continue the same analogy, targeted harassment goes from 100 mph to..like, 75mph on Monday, and person behind the wheel can gradually increase it back to 100 mph by wednesday or something. Targeted harassment doesn't meet a stone wall as much as it runs into a small speed bumb.

I find the massive difference between these two 1st hand experiences pretty sad.

I think it is perfectly likely and very human that names of people involved, post counts, who is " forum regular" and who isn't are HUGE factors and variables in this.

* "You" through all of the above refers to BW forum staff as a collective, over the years.I don't speak of you, JackieKo, or about any one BW/EA person in general.

In case it is relevant, 1st hand experiences about harassment happened over 3-4 months through last summer/autumn. The ..1st hand experience of the other hand was years and years back.

Yes, the forums here are considered an official platform. That said, I have spent a lot of time understanding the culture here including what has been done in the past, expectations of both player and dev, what can be improved upon or changed, balancing moderation presence etc... since I've been brought on board. While I cannot go into details regarding what actions we take against posts and accounts that violate our guidelines and Rules of Conduct, please know that we do take them. It won't always be obvious in the public eye, but there is a lot of movement behind the scenes. Warnings are given, and accounts can and have been suspended or outright banned.

 

My end goal is to cultivate a healthy community and that is obtained in various ways outside of moderation and cannot be done in a short amount of time. There is a lot of history here, and I'm doing my best to empathize with player and dev sentiment alike.

 

I realize that this is an off topic post, but I did want to address this topic as it is relevant to all players who frequent the forums.

Thank you, Jackie. I appreciate your efforts here!

Yes, the forums here are considered an official platform. That said, I have spent a lot of time understanding the culture here including what has been done in the past, expectations of both player and dev, what can be improved upon or changed, balancing moderation presence etc... since I've been brought on board. While I cannot go into details regarding what actions we take against posts and accounts that violate our guidelines and Rules of Conduct, please know that we do take them. It won't always be obvious in the public eye, but there is a lot of movement behind the scenes. Warnings are given, and accounts can and have been suspended or outright banned.

 

My end goal is to cultivate a healthy community and that is obtained in various ways outside of moderation and cannot be done in a short amount of time. There is a lot of history here, and I'm doing my best to empathize with player and dev sentiment alike.

 

I realize that this is an off topic post, but I did want to address this topic as it is relevant to all players who frequent the forums.

Taking in mind how much political drama was when the US elections over the discord, I thank you for stepping away from it. MODs there didn't do a ****. And sometimes gets really weird

Mods shouldn't be on discord. Discord is a text messaging service. Its more or less a group text chat. Unless excplicitly approved by bioware/ea as official. Which its not. Anything said by a moderator or anyone in a position at swtor is going to be taken as factual and official unfortunately there's not really a way around that.

My question is if they are in unofficial discords does bioware/ea know of this and pay attention to what their people say. If I was a game developer I know I wouldnt want my people in unofficial channels.

Its best to keep things official on the forums only.

Yes, the forums here are considered an official platform.

 

My end goal is to cultivate a healthy community and that is obtained in various ways outside of moderation and cannot be done in a short amount of time. There is a lot of history here, and I'm doing my best to empathize with player and dev sentiment alike.

 

 

Thanks for the post, Jackie. And trust me: there are a great many of us in the Community (vocal or not) who have noticed your efforts and very much appreciate them. (especially in the 'Star Wars section' )

---

Mods shouldn't be on discord. Discord is a text messaging service. Its more or less a group text chat. Unless excplicitly approved by bioware/ea as official. Which its not. Anything said by a moderator or anyone in a position at swtor is going to be taken as factual and official unfortunately there's not really a way around that.

 

My question is if they are in unofficial discords does bioware/ea know of this and pay attention to what their people say. If I was a game developer I know I wouldnt want my people in unofficial channels.

 

Its best to keep things official on the forums only.

As evidenced by my other posts within this thread, i tend to agree with you.

However, there's still this obscure thing called 'freedom' most of us all know & value. So yeah, how would EAWare "force" (pun intended) an employee (KappaChris or whomever) to never ever use 3rd-party non-official SWTOR discords?

Particularly since he/she could just simply go anonymous anyway.

imho, EA must've signed off on Chris' presence there, justifying it as some sort of "data collecting interaction with playerbase" effort , hence why he ended up posting here officially about it?

As evidenced by my other posts within this thread, i tend to agree with you.

 

However, there's still this obscure thing called 'freedom' most of us all know & value. So yeah, how would EAWare "force" (pun intended) an employee (KappaChris or whomever) to never ever use 3rd-party non-official SWTOR discords?

 

Particularly since he/she could just simply go anonymous anyway.

 

imho, EA must've signed off on Chris' presence there, justifying it as some sort of "data collecting interaction with playerbase" effort , hence why he ended up posting here officially about it?

True I do agree with the "freedom" point. However all of us have a measure of freedom but not "absolute" freedom. We all must work within the confines and rules of our employers, companies, organizations we are apart of.

For example a recent disney employee of a well known star wars tv show was let go because what was "posted unofficially" did not align with the core values of the company. There was that "freedom" however there were consequenses. Just like we have to abide by the rules in this forum. Some have used their freedom here but their posts have been removed because it didn't align with the rules.

That being said imo they should either make it official or not allow it at all.

True I do agree with the "freedom" point. However all of us have a measure of freedom but not "absolute" freedom. We all must work within the confines and rules of our employers, companies, organizations we are apart of.

 

For example a recent disney employee of a well known star wars tv show was let go because what was "posted unofficially" did not align with the core values of the company. There was that "freedom" however there were consequenses. Just like we have to abide by the rules in this forum. Some have used their freedom here but their posts have been removed because it didn't align with the rules.

 

That being said imo they should either make it official or not allow it at all.

My line has been rather simple this whole time. What anyone does on their own time, as an individual, is their business.

It is in using the name "biochris" that he makes it BW business. This is not "transparency" as he stated; it is giving the appearance of official statements in an unofficial medium. If Chris is more comfortable with discord, perhaps bw should make an officially sanctioned and BW moderated discord channel. Being too critical for the devs to participate in a discussion is a pathetic excuse. If someone goes against BWs stated TOS they can (and have) removed the posts.

As we have now seen several examples of, a third party moderater has their own agenda and is free to do as they choose, to the extent of being just as toxic as they accuse forumgoers of being. In addition, in my opinion, to the presence of a known and self stated BW employee being in the channel giving the appearance of favoritism on the part of the company and giving the potential third part moderater a seemingly company endorsed sense of self importance.

Do you guys think these posts are helpful or encourage him to post here after attacking him? This is turning into a witch hunt and is not going to end well. I would suggest we all step back for a bit.

Sorry Trixx, but i think you need to re-check your definition of "attacking" .

It's been a pretty civil discussion/debate so far imo.

As paying subscribers, we are def. allowed to post how we feel, no? (aka 'Forums' lol )

No pitchforks or whatever from my end at least (check my posts in the thread) . Ultimately, all i'm asking/suggesting is that he (Chris) and other BioWare devs try their best to post about SWTOR interacting with the community here iin the OFFICIAL website more often.

Or, at the very least, re-post their coveted Discord answers here on the forums.

I hardly think that to be such an unreasonable "attacking" type request.

Sorry Trixx, but i think you need to re-check your definition of "attacking" .

 

It's been a pretty civil discussion/debate so far imo.

 

As paying subscribers, we are def. allowed to post how we feel, no? (aka 'Forums' lol )

 

No pitchforks or whatever from my end at least (check my posts in the thread) . Ultimately, all i'm asking/suggesting is that he (Chris) and other BioWare devs try their best to post about SWTOR interacting with the community here iin the OFFICIAL website more often.

 

Or, at the very least, re-post their coveted Discord answers here on the forums.

 

I hardly think that to be such an unreasonable "attacking" type request.

Or...you could just join the Discord server

Or...you could just join the Discord server

This ^^

Or...you could just join the Discord server

Or...BioWare could just use the Official forums.

See how that works?

p.s. Already tried joining the vaunted Discord server and....well....let's just say it wasn't all that appealing.

Or...you could just join the Discord server

except it's not official, and run by people with their own agenda, and own interests in promoting their style of play. Who can ban people for little or no reason, or if they don't agree with their politics Not only that they allow abusive behaviour that isn't tolerated here. We've already see what can happen to content when it's not the favourite of these people, and they have the devs ear. Instead of trying to improve ALL content for ALL people, the instigated a campaign to destroy content others like. Even though there were plenty of workable and elegant solutions to the 'supposed' issues, the devs went with that bunch, and we've seen the results.

I know some people are claiming the forums are toxic, but compared to discord, this is a church meeting, and we're all ned flanders'

except it's not official, and run by people with their own agenda, and own interests in promoting their style of play. Who can ban people for little or no reason, or if they don't agree with their politics Not only that they allow abusive behaviour that isn't tolerated here. We've already see what can happen to content when it's not the favourite of these people, and they have the devs ear. Instead of trying to improve ALL content for ALL people, the instigated a campaign to destroy content others like. Even though there were plenty of workable and elegant solutions to the 'supposed' issues, the devs went with that bunch, and we've seen the results.

I know some people are claiming the forums are toxic, but compared to discord, this is a church meeting, and we're all ned flanders'

You know the CQ trolls that’s were here to destroy crafting weren’t on the TC discord? And as far as I know, Bioware didn’t engage with them about it in other discord’s either.

I really think this thread is going in a direction that is going to prove more negative to BioWare communication here and elsewhere. I feel this is turning into a polarising thread because people want something to blame for all the bad forum communication (understandably) and poor game QA and other issues seemingly being ignored on the surface.

I’m not trying to defend official BioWare. I think we all have legitimate gripes at the moment, but if we keep going after this topic and Chris, we may find we’ll have less community interaction and knowledge over all platforms because BioWare will put a moratorium on things and that will shut down communication more than it is. That won’t be good for us or the game. I’m suggesting we pull back and let things settle down for a bit.