Trash packs are one thing, but on a raid boss, why in the world wouldn't you use taunt? It puts your threat at the highest threat person plus 30%.

Well, I am primarily talking about not having to taunt bosses pre-2.0. I mean, I might have fired off one taunt at the outset of a fight, but normally I'd save my taunts for mechanics (ex. Toth/Zorn HM switch) instead of working it into a rotation. It just seemed unnecessary--nobody EVER pulled a boss off me pre-2.0. And in 2.0 I'm still not having problems with boss threat, but I am on trash... especially in the new HM FP's where you might have trash packs consisting of 6 or 7 mobs. It's just hard for me to keep everyone corralled.

Quite honestly, I think Sonic Missile is broken or bugged. I'll fire it off into a trash pack of, say, 5 mobs, and will watch 2 of them still make a bee-line for a healer or dps, even if that dps isn't hitting that particular mob. It's weird. And I'm not the only PT tank in my guild this seems to happen to. Conversely, on my Shadow tank, I can hit Mass Mind Control and mobs are on me like Hutt on cake--no strays.

What's the range limit on Sonic Missile? The tooltip just says all "nearby" enemies, whereas MMC specifies a range (15m from the tank). Is SM's range based on where you fire it TO, or where YOU are standing (like MMC)?

Here's my lead in if I can afford the taunts:

 

Hit shoulder cannon pre-pull to at least start it charging, or be fully charged if someone is explaining the fight to new people.

Grapple line, Jet Charge, Rocket punch, Rail Shot (taunt), Flame Thrower, Flame Burst a couple times/ Rocket Punch if it's off c/d/ Flame Sweep if it's still free (aoe taunt), Death From Above (vent heat), Rocket Punch if it's off c/d or Flame Burst once or twice (taunt). During this, I spam my Shoulder Cannon missiles and put it on c/d as quickly as I can so I can use it again (either as more damage or for the healing, depending on the fight).

Thanks for breaking it down. That's actually quite helpful.

Small favor: would you mind linking your spec, as well as posting your AOE rotation? TIA.

If anyone does burst high enough initially, it'll be during the 6 seconds that the boss is forced to look at me for the taunt, and by the next taunt I'll have grabbed that person's agro plus 30%.

So, to clarify: firing off a taunt will put you on top of the highest threat on the targets hate list + 30% more hate? But from the outset of the taunt, right? Not continuously for 6 seconds? I'm thinking of situations where maybe a sniper drops Orbital Strike--if I'm concerned about losing the mob, I am better served taunting after all 3 strikes hit, as opposed to just after the first one, correct?

The biggest difference now is that using the right defensive cooldown at the right time is even more important for PT's and juggs when that used to be the realm of assassins. For example using energy shield when tanking heaps of Salky Hounds in mando raiders, as those trash packs will destroy any tank/healer pair who are not prepared. Knowledge of the fights and more importantly, the trash pulls are even more critical when doing HM flashpoints than ever before.

As has been mentioned, use and abuse your cooldowns, stagger them so you always have one to use. Also consider your shoulder cannon as a full on defensive cooldown considering the total healing it does by firing all missiles off back to back. And as always, using grapple for anything other then pulling a mob is a waste of a GDC. Grapple generates less then half the threat of the assassin pull ability, and less then a flameburst. Its a great tool for tanking trash, but has no place in a high threat ability priority.

Well, I am primarily talking about not having to taunt bosses pre-2.0. I mean, I might have fired off one taunt at the outset of a fight, but normally I'd save my taunts for mechanics (ex. Toth/Zorn HM switch) instead of working it into a rotation. It just seemed unnecessary--nobody EVER pulled a boss off me pre-2.0.

Again, I roll with some really ballsy dps. Pre 2.0, my GM (another powertech) and I were the only ones who could consistently hold threat on these guys. And we encourage them to hit the bosses as hard and fast as they can. In 2.0, our best Juggernaut definitely has a better time holding agro, but I from what I see, I think I still have the edge.

Quite honestly, I think Sonic Missile is broken or bugged. I'll fire it off into a trash pack of, say, 5 mobs, and will watch 2 of them still make a bee-line for a healer or dps, even if that dps isn't hitting that particular mob.

I'm pretty sure it's not bugged. I haven't noticed it to behave at all differently than pre-2.0. It's not a giant area of effect. You generally have to do the legwork of rounding up the adds a bit and hitting them with some attacks before hitting aoe taunt. Especially since you want to gain a good bit of ground with that 30% gain. Otherwise, you're just forcing them to look at you for 6 seconds.

In raids, if a mob or two is out of range of the aoe taunt (or just goes after someone else because they focused it and I didn't hit aoe taunt for that pack), then I just select hat mob and single target taunt them. It's rare to need to do that on more than one target, but I can grapple line another after doing a single target taunt on the first one (grapple also generates a lot threat) and continue to hit them with my aoe.

This is, of course, assuming that the adds are fairly grouped up and the raid is aoe'ing them down. For spread out mobs, that's when you have to do the full on legwork.

Small favor: would you mind linking your spec, as well as posting your AOE rotation? TIA.

This is the spec I've been using, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily ideal. I should probably take the point in Prototype Cylinders and maybe a point from either Hot Iron or Iron Fist and put them in Prototype Burn Enhancers. I just have a thing about investing in crit. It's true that Flame Sweep still has increased crit chance, but it just feels kind of silly to still invest in fire crit chance. Though Prototype Cylinders should probably go.

When pulling trash, it's not really about an ideal rotation to lock down a group of adds. A lot of our good stuff is on too long of a cooldown to use on every group of adds you pull. So I alternate tools on groups. And spread out groups of adds require different tactics than tightly grouped adds.

For instance, if a group of adds are pretty tightly grouped, I'll lead with Death from Above, then Jet Charge in and start Flame Sweeping a bit. Keeping in mind that Flame Sweep only hits up to 5 adds, I'll weave myself around and make sure I'm giving some flame love to everything that needs it. The first two Flame Sweeps are free, but you can still spam a number of them before your heat gets high. If the DPS pull one or two, I'll select them and single target taunt them/grapple line them in. If the angle works out, Flame Thrower, especially the fast ticking one is great. If I really need it, I can hit Vent Heat, but I'd prefer to save it for another pack.

For the next tight group, I'll Jet Charge in, do some Flame Sweeps (rounding them up with some single target attacks if they're not quite grouped up tightly enough at first), then pop my aoe taunt after the DPS have laid into them a bit. The gain from the aoe taunt is generally all I'll need for that pack. Again, if the angle for Flame Thrower works out, then that's awesome.

If a group of trash is spread out, then it's full on leg-work time. I do kind of triage of making sure I get to all of the adds that aren't cc'd (and all of the cc'd adds that the dps break) and hit them with attacks like Rocket Punch/Rail Shot, Flame Burst, etc, and Grapple Line as need be.

Step One is to make sure you grab agro over the healers on everything out there. Step Two is to taunt off whatever the DPS decided to focus on and get it back on you. Step Three is to keep attacking the focus target while tab targeting/selecting mobs during your global cooldowns/channels to make sure they're looking at you, and attack/taunt them to get them back if they're looking at someone else. If the DPS are being good at focusing on one mob, then start picking your next mob to focus on by the time the mob gets lower than like 25%. Jump on that mo' fo' and beat it in the face.

With spead out trash mobs, I like to think of it as tending a garden. I have to give some attention all over it in order to keep everything looking at me, popping taunts on DPS focus targets as need be, but making sure to stay ahead of the healers on everything.

So, to clarify: firing off a taunt will put you on top of the highest threat on the targets hate list + 30% more hate? But from the outset of the taunt, right? Not continuously for 6 seconds? I'm thinking of situations where maybe a sniper drops Orbital Strike--if I'm concerned about losing the mob, I am better served taunting after all 3 strikes hit, as opposed to just after the first one, correct?

It sets you at the highest threat +30% the moment you taunt. It also forces the target(s) to look at you for 6 seconds. If someone else got higher threat than you (110% of your threat for melee, 130% of your threat for ranged) during those 6 seconds, they'll head on over to them the instant those 6 seconds are up.

Whether you're better served waiting for a taunt depends on whether the dps can survive waiting. Also, whether that mob you just lost agro on is going to get away from you and out of your aoe taunt range. I admit I'm more loose in flashpoints than in raids, but in raids, if something looks at someone else, it needs to get back on me ASAP.

Lots of text, but hope that helps.

We actually have 2 self heals, between Shoulder Cannon and Kolto Overload, but they are on cooldowns where as a Sin has it as a proc which. Sins are built around their self heal as part of their mitigation kit.

third in fact. each time you get hit by an aoe you will be self healed that the new vanguard passive ability

and i dont understand why jug are suposed to get a better threat then us. i saw so many jug/gardian in pain with their threat.

third in fact. each time you get hit by an aoe you will be self healed that the new vanguard passive ability

 

and i dont understand why jug are suposed to get a better threat then us. i saw so many jug/gardian in pain with their threat.

Juggs issue with threat is during their opening rotation. They start off having to actually work to build up their resource in order to get rolling. Once they actually GET through two basic rotations (per what my GM said last night in our ops) their threat is just solid beyond anything else.

Juggs issue with threat is during their opening rotation. They start off having to actually work to build up their resource in order to get rolling. Once they actually GET through two basic rotations (per what my GM said last night in our ops) their threat is just solid beyond anything else.

like all tanks. i dont understand why jugs are suposed to be better then PT with their threath

If this is based off of anything I said, I'd just like to clarify that when I said our guild's best juggernaut is better at threat, I meant better than he used to be. But as I indicated, I find I still have an easier time on my Powertech than him. So what I'm saying is it seems to me that Powertechs still have the edge when it comes to threat.

Juggernauts have flat out better cooldowns, especially after having gotten Saber Reflect. But we grab theat like nobody's business.

like all tanks. i dont understand why jugs are suposed to be better then PT with their threath

I'm not saying that Juggs are better than PT are at threat. All I said, from raiding with a few different Jugg tanks, is that their initial threat burst is a LOT lower than ours. PT has it quite easy when it comes to opening threat and holding threat in general (I have only one dps that I ever have issues with pulling threat off of me, and half of the time he is tanking) and our sustained threat is very solid. Jugg threat though ramps up much slower to get to the same level that we get to much quicker.

Juggs just bring such better cooldowns to Ops than we do. But I won't reroll just for silly cooldowns like that.

I play a vanguard and I'm gonna post on here because usually the Van forums are dead. Here goes.

PT/VAN IS PERFECTLY VIABLE! From a mitigation stance, we have to change the way we think. PT tanking has gone from a passive hit a rotation keep one buff up type of tank into a constant struggle to keep heat blast's cooldown decreasing while still performing boss mechanics and keeping your debuff on the boss. I imagine most of the people here are still doing hard mode flash points and getting some gear. Imagine yourself at launch as a fresh 50. You are wearing crap gear. This is where you stand now. We've been spoiled by a talent tree that gave us all we needed with little effort. With some moderate gearing we could tank it all. Not anymore. I've main tanked and cleared all of S&V 16 man Hard mode on a vanguard. I know it's viable, but now, the class isn't going to play itself. Not anymore. This time, we are going to have to become intimate with every detail of the class in order to maximize its ability.

ALSO, stop using horrible builds. I've seen enough of the 8 points deep in Advanced prototype for no reason at all builds. Those need to die forever. Use this instead. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZbcZbc.3

Stop wasting a valuable talent point on Prototype Cylinders. ITS AWFUL FOR ION CYLINDER! SO BAD! 3% Endurance...No brainer. At my gear level, I gain 1k hp. 1k HP for 3 talent points.....OBVIOUS CHOICE! 6% crit for fire abilities or 8% Extra rocket punch damage...It's still up in the air. I have parses on single targets where rocket punch will do more damage and I have parses where Flamethrower will do more damage. 7 points in advanced prototype might be acceptable for Flash points, but going without 1k HP in an operation is just silly. If you can't figure out how to keep threat without all the damage talents by the time you walk into an operation, then its time to reroll. As for those wondering if accuracy is necessary...YES! Get the 3% from talent, 1% from companion unlock, and 6% from gear. Missing with Rail Shot and Rocket Punch will ruin your survivability and your threat gain.

And don't forget...Only nooblords don't use an attack adrenal and a power relic swap right before they pull.

I play a vanguard and I'm gonna post on here because usually the Van forums are dead. Here goes.

PT/VAN IS PERFECTLY VIABLE! From a mitigation stance, we have to change the way we think. PT tanking has gone from a passive hit a rotation keep one buff up type of tank into a constant struggle to keep heat blast's cooldown decreasing while still performing boss mechanics and keeping your debuff on the boss. I imagine most of the people here are still doing hard mode flash points and getting some gear. Imagine yourself at launch as a fresh 50. You are wearing crap gear. This is where you stand now. We've been spoiled by a talent tree that gave us all we needed with little effort. With some moderate gearing we could tank it all. Not anymore. I've main tanked and cleared all of S&V 16 man Hard mode on a vanguard. I know it's viable, but now, the class isn't going to play itself. Not anymore. This time, we are going to have to become intimate with every detail of the class in order to maximize its ability.

 

ALSO, stop using horrible builds. I've seen enough of the 8 points deep in Advanced prototype for no reason at all builds. Those need to die forever. Use this instead. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZbcZbc.3

Stop wasting a valuable talent point on Prototype Cylinders. ITS AWFUL FOR ION CYLINDER! SO BAD! 3% Endurance...No brainer. At my gear level, I gain 1k hp. 1k HP for 3 talent points.....OBVIOUS CHOICE! 6% crit for fire abilities or 8% Extra rocket punch damage...It's still up in the air. I have parses on single targets where rocket punch will do more damage and I have parses where Flamethrower will do more damage. 7 points in advanced prototype might be acceptable for Flash points, but going without 1k HP in an operation is just silly. If you can't figure out how to keep threat without all the damage talents by the time you walk into an operation, then its time to reroll. As for those wondering if accuracy is necessary...YES! Get the 3% from talent, 1% from companion unlock, and 6% from gear. Missing with Rail Shot and Rocket Punch will ruin your survivability and your threat gain.

 

And don't forget...Only nooblords don't use an attack adrenal and a power relic swap right before they pull.

So, I am so not sure whether or not you are attempting to troll here or if you are quite serious about this.

I think I will start off by dissecting your point of taking accuracy. First off, by building 6% accuracy from gear, you are losing out on shield rating, since it shares a stat slot with accuracy. The amount needed to gather up 6% accuracy is quite a bit of loss of shield rating which will reduce our survivability, threat generation, and heat venting.

Taking Advanced Prototype Cylinders buffs one of our highest threat modified attacks. Increased damage is increased threat, which means the boss focuses on us even more than before.

Taken from a dummy parse I did:

22:04:30.780 Khuri's Shocked (Tech) hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 103 energy damage, causing 829 threat. That threat modifier is much higher than anything we are able to deal out with other attacks. Buffing the damage of Ion Gas' DoT means the threat modifier benefits as well.

1k Health in the grand scheme of things is not that much health, whereas the added threat off of Rocket Punch, the added threat to fire abilities, and then of course there is the added DAMAGE ALONE that it increases allows for bosses to die faster. Let me guess, you are one of those tanks that think your dps is useless and you would be perfectly fine if you did zero damage and just held threat via threat modifying zero damage moves.

Unfortunately Bioware and most other MMO companies look at tanks as a source of dps when factoring in boss health and enrage timers. Yes, we may never break 2k dps, but the 1k dps that we can put out will allow for the boss to die faster, the dps to push harder and faster, allow the healers to not be stressed by a longer fight, and for your Ops runs to actually go quicker.

I will not disagree with you on the viability of ST/SS as a spec as MT. I MT for my guild, I had my healers tell me that I am very easy to heal, that sometimes it was boring to heal me because ST had so much passive mitigation and active mitigation while tanking. I still am easy to heal right now even with a lower level of absorb and shield.

Is the build you listed viable, yes it is. Is it THE BEST build, who knows. It is funny though that you first blast people for taking a 1 point 3% damage boost talent then say that spending 3 points to get a 1k health boost is a no brainer. The 3% damage boost for 1 point vs spending 3 points to get the same benefit to health does not wash with me at all. Not putting points into Hot Irons or Prototype Burn Enhancers to increase either our filler ability (Flame Burst), or base fire damage, then tell someone to put 2 more points (than I recommend) into Puncture to gain 2% accuracy (then you tell people to sacrifice shield rating for another 6% accuracy) and another 30% armor penetration on a ability with a 12 second CD does not wash with me either.

Should I prepop a attack adrenal, yeah I can see the benefit of that. Do I use absorb adrenals, nope, should I? Yeah probably. I chose not to though purely because I chose not to. Is the gained bonus damage that amazing that it helps your initial threat on the pull? Is the gained bonus damage gained from popping a power relic before the pull worth the time it takes to swap relics, putting the relic you reequip possibly on CD as well if it is a click relic, and the 5 to 10 seconds wasted doing this worth it? Nope not in my opinion. I would rather throw out a grapple, jet charge, then get into my opening rotation. The thing though is that PT/VG has some of the BEST opening threat gen on pull than any other tank out there without using these kind of things.

If you had come at this in a more non bashing way than you did I probably could have discussed this with you in a more polite way, but instead you trash those of us who spec 8 into AP to help out our Ops and to personally improve in more than just a survival way.

I wouldn't waste your time, Ellenbec. GreenLantern insults people for spending talent points in damage increasing abilities, then tells people to gear for Accuracy. Pretty sure that's a troll post.

But yeah, 1% Endurance per talent point has always been such a small drop in the bucket that it's just not worth it. I understand that we have a shiny new expansion here, but 1% is still just 1%.

I'm not saying that Juggs are better than PT are at threat. All I said, from raiding with a few different Jugg tanks, is that their initial threat burst is a LOT lower than ours. PT has it quite easy when it comes to opening threat and holding threat in general (I have only one dps that I ever have issues with pulling threat off of me, and half of the time he is tanking) and our sustained threat is very solid. Jugg threat though ramps up much slower to get to the same level that we get to much quicker.

 

Juggs just bring such better cooldowns to Ops than we do. But I won't reroll just for silly cooldowns like that.

it was not about you but about a post in the first page. who claim that the PT is the worst tank to manage the threath...thats ********.

with 2.0 we gain a lot of mass threat ability and new control and we kept our aoe stun there is a lot of adds in the new operation and we are maybe the bests adds tank now. I see a lot of reason to take a PT in ops

it was not about you but about a post in the first page. who claim that the PT is the worst tank to manage the threath...thats ********.

 

with 2.0 we gain a lot of mass threat ability and new control and we kept our aoe stun there is a lot of adds in the new operation and we are maybe the bests adds tank now. I see a lot of reason to take a PT in ops

After reading through the thread again I realized that specifically Callly. And I agree about there being viable reasons to bring PT tanks, not just as trash tanks, but as a MT (I know my guild drags my lame *** around to tank for them).

I wouldn't waste your time, Ellenbec. GreenLantern insults people for spending talent points in damage increasing abilities, then tells people to gear for Accuracy. Pretty sure that's a troll post.

 

But yeah, 1% Endurance per talent point has always been such a small drop in the bucket that it's just not worth it. I understand that we have a shiny new expansion here, but 1% is still just 1%.

I completely agree with you on it having to be a troll post. I just enjoy going through posts like that and ripping them apart for the fallacies of it. 3% endurance gain for myself is only 857 health, not worth the loss of damage to multiple attacks that my spec gives me.

All of the damage boosting talents in AP that he recommended you avoid translate directly into increased threat gen and faster boss kills. With higher threat gen, that allows your dps as well to push harder and faster since they know that you are putting out more damage and threat.

Let me go through this systematically to make sure you all get it.

1. The goal of the PT/VAN is to trigger Ion cylinder proc as much as possible to get the cooldown of Heat Blast down as quickly as possible so that our survivability is at its maximum for as long as possible. Rail Shot, Rocket Punch, and Hammer shot are what trigger the Ion cylinder procs.

2. Flame Burst is our filler: WRONG! Flame burst WAS our filler. this has changed completely. Does flame burst trigger Ion cylinder? No. Then its purpose is now to be used to apply the buff and as a spamable when a group needs to burn as much damage as possible. Rapid shots has now become our filler to trigger Ion cylinder as much as possible.

3. Prototype Cylinders is useless: Using the numbers posted in this thread, people do in the neighborhood of 100 dmg on ion cylinder proc. According to my log of Dread Lord Stryak HM, I triggered 150 Ion cylinder procs throughout the entirety of the fight, and recorded about 30000 damage. Now, if I had wasted a point in Prototype Cylinders, I would have done an extra 2400 damage over the course of a 15 minute fight. WOW THATS SO MUCH WHAT A GOOD USE OF A TALENT POINT! Prototype Cylinders doesnt even effect the Shocked (Tech) damage that you get from the Ion overload talent.

4. Accuracy is useless: WRONG! Sure, there are tradeoffs. You lose some shield. The good news is that your shield rating will be high enough that you will begin to benifit from the opposite of diminishing returns. You are losing less shield % because you are so far along the curve at the upper tier of gear that the tradeoff is minimal. Not to mention, In order to keep Heat blast's cooldown down as low as possible, you have to be able to land hits with your Rocket Punch and Rail Shot.

5. No I'm not the person who thinks tank damage is insignificant. I consistently pull ~1200 dps patchwerk and obviously I understand the value of 600k damage on a boss.

It's very simple. You can get all butthurt because I'm rude and not take my advice and continue playing the class wrong, or you can listen and learn. It wont affect me either way.

Juggs opening burst is very competitive if you look at how much threat they generate before they even hit their ravage, its just that their first 2 global cooldowns tend to be low damage rage builders in order to debuff and sync their 12 second cycle. Its during those first GCD's that a jugg can loose it. All these weaknesses are the strengths of the PT, with very flexible range and no reliance on low damage resource builders. Where they fall down in defensive cooldowns, they make up for in strong utility outside of 4m, and a forgiving resource mechanic.

Any boss that requires initial positioning where the jugg drops out of melee range is going to result in loosing agro without a taunt due to the sheer dependency on the 4m range. For example first boss in scum needs to be facepulled with saber throw and swiveled into position facing the shield generator, but ranged dps are already shooting the entire time, which can make setting it up a little stressful for a jugg. A helpful co-tank is going to make life wonderful though, considering you have 4 taunts on demand between you. I think a lot of issues people have are really issues working as a team with the other tank.

On the topic of endurance skill vs dps skills, I wouldn't say one is better, its really more of a philosophical choice. The endurance skill does have more value now as it is a direct increase to shoulder missile heals, in addition to increasing TTK by a trivial amount. The same could be said about using power crystals and reflex armorings, reducing your TTK for added raw dps.

Let me go through this systematically to make sure you all get it.

1. The goal of the PT/VAN is to trigger Ion cylinder proc as much as possible to get the cooldown of Heat Blast down as quickly as possible so that our survivability is at its maximum for as long as possible. Rail Shot, Rocket Punch, and Hammer shot are what trigger the Ion cylinder procs.

2. Flame Burst is our filler: WRONG! Flame burst WAS our filler. this has changed completely. Does flame burst trigger Ion cylinder? No. Then its purpose is now to be used to apply the buff and as a spamable when a group needs to burn as much damage as possible. Rapid shots has now become our filler to trigger Ion cylinder as much as possible.

3. Prototype Cylinders is useless: Using the numbers posted in this thread, people do in the neighborhood of 100 dmg on ion cylinder proc. According to my log of Dread Lord Stryak HM, I triggered 150 Ion cylinder procs throughout the entirety of the fight, and recorded about 30000 damage. Now, if I had wasted a point in Prototype Cylinders, I would have done an extra 2400 damage over the course of a 15 minute fight. WOW THATS SO MUCH WHAT A GOOD USE OF A TALENT POINT! Prototype Cylinders doesnt even effect the Shocked (Tech) damage that you get from the Ion overload talent.

4. Accuracy is useless: WRONG! Sure, there are tradeoffs. You lose some shield. The good news is that your shield rating will be high enough that you will begin to benifit from the opposite of diminishing returns. You are losing less shield % because you are so far along the curve at the upper tier of gear that the tradeoff is minimal. Not to mention, In order to keep Heat blast's cooldown down as low as possible, you have to be able to land hits with your Rocket Punch and Rail Shot.

5. No I'm not the person who thinks tank damage is insignificant. I consistently pull ~1200 dps patchwerk and obviously I understand the value of 600k damage on a boss.

 

It's very simple. You can get all butthurt because I'm rude and not take my advice and continue playing the class wrong, or you can listen and learn. It wont affect me either way.

So quoteth the elitist ******, so it shall pass. Guess I am a terrible tank and should just quit playing since I don't take your advice.

The biggest hole in your theory about stacking accuracy to proc Ion Gas and lower Heat Blast's cooldown though is that building/refreshing Heat Screen falls under a 1.5 second internal cooldown. Heat Blast now has a 15 second CD. The reduction of Heat Blast's cooldown can only occur once every 1.5 seconds when Heat Screen is able to proc. Over the course of Heat Blast's cooldown, that allows for only 10 possible procs of Heat Screen stacking and refreshing. This is split up over three different possible ways to do it: Shielding an attack, using Rocket Punch to trigger Ion Gas, or using Rapid Shot to trigger Ion Gas. So that leaves a 1 in 3 possible way to proc Heat Screen every 1.5 seconds.

Rapid Shot has a 15% chance of applying Ion Gas. Rocket Punch has a 100% chance of applying Ion Gas, but is on a 9 second cooldown and every 7.5 seconds we have a 50% chance of a full clear of it's cooldown. Shielding a attack has a 100% chance of applying Heat Screen with no cooldown at all.

Hmm, which seems to be the best possible way to reapply Heat Screen and get Heat Blast off cooldown the fastest I wonder.

The way you are wanting to do it though you require intense luck, or just pure Rapid Shot spam in order to get Heat Screen anywhere near a 6 second cooldown to keep the buff rolling and never fall off. I personally would rather use Flame Burst, which deals more damage, generates more threat, and applies a useful debuff to the target instead of just standing there shooting my gun.

But then again I am just a useless terribad casaul who can't play this game in your opinion and makes little to no effort to actually learn how to play my class and tank.

So quoteth the elitist ******, so it shall pass. Guess I am a terrible tank and should just quit playing since I don't take your advice.

 

The biggest hole in your theory about stacking accuracy to proc Ion Gas and lower Heat Blast's cooldown though is that building/refreshing Heat Screen falls under a 1.5 second internal cooldown. Heat Blast now has a 15 second CD. The reduction of Heat Blast's cooldown can only occur once every 1.5 seconds when Heat Screen is able to proc. Over the course of Heat Blast's cooldown, that allows for only 10 possible procs of Heat Screen stacking and refreshing. This is split up over three different possible ways to do it: Shielding an attack, using Rocket Punch to trigger Ion Gas, or using Rapid Shot to trigger Ion Gas. So that leaves a 1 in 3 possible way to proc Heat Screen every 1.5 seconds.

 

Rapid Shot has a 15% chance of applying Ion Gas. Rocket Punch has a 100% chance of applying Ion Gas, but is on a 9 second cooldown and every 7.5 seconds we have a 50% chance of a full clear of it's cooldown. Shielding a attack has a 100% chance of applying Heat Screen with no cooldown at all.

 

Hmm, which seems to be the best possible way to reapply Heat Screen and get Heat Blast off cooldown the fastest I wonder.

 

The way you are wanting to do it though you require intense luck, or just pure Rapid Shot spam in order to get Heat Screen anywhere near a 6 second cooldown to keep the buff rolling and never fall off. I personally would rather use Flame Burst, which deals more damage, generates more threat, and applies a useful debuff to the target instead of just standing there shooting my gun.

 

But then again I am just a useless terribad casaul who can't play this game in your opinion and makes little to no effort to actually learn how to play my class and tank.

This guy gets it (as far as how Heat Screen procs and usage of accuracy). Don't forget though that your rail shot can proc a Heat Screen since it resets your Ion Cylinder

Taking accuracy is a waste, especially since it shares a stat allotment on enhancements with shield.

I would like to see Heat Screens be built up by dodging attacks also (i.e. defense rating), but I don't think that's gonna happen.

Also, going back to one of GreenLantern's posts...he said to pop the power relic and an attack adrenal before pulling? Why in the world would you ever waste a relic spot on a DPS power relic?! I've got an Elite War Hero Shield relic (120 shield rating) and the Arkanian Relic of Fortunate Redoubt. Not a chance in hell I swap those out for a power relic...if you're running into threat issues as a PT tank, you need to learn how to work your taunt into your opening rotation.

This guy gets it (as far as how Heat Screen procs and usage of accuracy). Don't forget though that your rail shot can proc a Heat Screen since it resets your Ion Cylinder

 

Taking accuracy is a waste, especially since it shares a stat allotment on enhancements with shield.

 

I would like to see Heat Screens be built up by dodging attacks also (i.e. defense rating), but I don't think that's gonna happen.

 

Also, going back to one of GreenLantern's posts...he said to pop the power relic and an attack adrenal before pulling? Why in the world would you ever waste a relic spot on a DPS power relic?! I've got an Elite War Hero Shield relic (120 shield rating) and the Arkanian Relic of Fortunate Redoubt. Not a chance in hell I swap those out for a power relic...if you're running into threat issues as a PT tank, you need to learn how to work your taunt into your opening rotation.

You aren't wasting a relic slot. You equip your on use power relic. Use it. Switch your tanking relic back on. Pop power adrenal. Pull boss. The only reason not to do this is pure laziness and nothing else. L2PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Didn't bother to read all the replies, so sorry if someone already covered this.

I'm going to address some of the misconceptions about PT tanking, as many now seems to miss understand how to use their benefits.

First of all: Damage reduction!

All tanks have been nerfed, together with dps, heals and the mobs damage.

This is because your stats are now based on getting hit or hit or heal level 55 mobs instead of 50.

So your gear compared to BiS gear before the expansion, can not be compared. The mobs are also

tweaked to this. Do not try the same setup as before, it won't work as good.

I'm running this build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZrkZbM.3

Reason: My main priority is to have as much life/reduction/self healing as possible without having major problems with threat. I achieve this with the current specc. The DPS I'm playing with are optimized 72's. I'll come back to threat later.

What I do to minimize damage: I use Oilslick, relic, Kolto Overload and Shield in a rotation system. Kolto Overload always when its off cooldown, Oilslick,Relic,Shield if I do not have any of the 2 others up. This makes you less spikey and gives you a nice rotation which should give you most out of the cooldowns. On thrash (if I'm not lazy) I stun the mobs with both electro dart and Carb in the start. Remember on big backs, the 10 first secounds is where you want to minimize your damage income the most. Not when your on 50% health and 2 mobs left, the healer will build you up at that point (unless you have a crappy healer, then your done anyway in the first 10 sec ).

Threat:

Common misunderstanding is that you should ALWAYS be low on heat, this is wrong.

What you should strive after is never being cap'ed on heat before your vent heat is off cool down again.

This is done by not spamming flame burst, but utilizing your cool downs and abilities. Channeled spells, done right, vents your heat instead of producing heat. Specially flamethrower with the Flame Engine procced.

Also Unload shortens your Heat Blast cool down, due to the Ion-gas proccs it produces. Its not an efficient threat generator, but its better then the usual filler.

What I do to maximize threat on boss: Death from above -> Grapple -> Jet Charge -> Rocket punch -> Rail shot -> Flamethrower (if flame engine NOT procced) -> Flame sweep x 2, then I start priority system which I won't go into here. But the principle is Flamethrower any time its up (usually get 1 free, 1 cost, use my Override on the cost if up), rocket punch, Shoulder cannon, Kolto Overload, Rail shot, heat blast and Unload if everything else is on cool down.

Flame burst I do at least once every 15 sec (or what the duration is again).

On Multi-target tanking I start pretty much the same, just without grapple. I also switch target after Rocket punch/Rail shot as this target is now stuck to you no matter what. Next target switch I do is next rocket punch. I also do 3 flame sweeps instead of two before I use my flamethrower and I sneak in a Explosive dart if I got the heat for it. On this, you will overheat your self, but remember, the initial seconds with everyone doing AOE (specially the snipers/operatives) is the hard part. If you loose 1 to a marauder, taunt it! If you got ****** melee dps (hitting multible targets) wait until they draw aggro and aoe-taunt.

I haven't measured my DPS compared to Jugg/assassin with the 72 gear, but both DPS and threat following this as been better then Jugg/Assassin on both single-target and multi-target tanking. Also the damage reduction has been lower/on pair compared to Jugg, unless the boss is a single hard hitting skill it does seldom with no small hitting skills in between (Kephess).

That said, this isn't a "Follow the script" kinda thing, so its alot more about rythem and priority.

Example: If you're unlucky with the flame engine procc, so the flamethrower goes off cool-down without this mechanics triggering once and you do not have override, don't use it. You'll overheat to fast. If Flame Engine procced, you should be low enough to have max heat reduction, giving back almost all heat generated from using it.

That said! Taunt is now affected by accuracy, aoe taunt as then naturally higher chance of letting one mob slip through the cracks, but if you've lost your whole pack to someone, you're doing something wrong!

Gear I use: Shield/Absorb heavy with second priority on Defense. I have no Accuracy t talk about.

Current stats (approx):

Life: 36k

Shield: 40% (950 rating)

Absorb: 40% (650 Rating)

Defense: 17% (450 rating (with 2% from Set bonus).

Use it or not, you'll at least win the dps meters over any other tank.

Edit: saw this!

"

Let me go through this systematically to make sure you all get it.

1. The goal of the PT/VAN is to trigger Ion cylinder proc as much as possible to get the cooldown of Heat Blast down as quickly as possible so that our survivability is at its maximum for as long as possible. Rail Shot, Rocket Punch, and Hammer shot are what trigger the Ion cylinder procs.

2. Flame Burst is our filler: WRONG! Flame burst WAS our filler. this has changed completely. Does flame burst trigger Ion cylinder? No. Then its purpose is now to be used to apply the buff and as a spamable when a group needs to burn as much damage as possible. Rapid shots has now become our filler to trigger Ion cylinder as much as possible.

3. Prototype Cylinders is useless: Using the numbers posted in this thread, people do in the neighborhood of 100 dmg on ion cylinder proc. According to my log of Dread Lord Stryak HM, I triggered 150 Ion cylinder procs throughout the entirety of the fight, and recorded about 30000 damage. Now, if I had wasted a point in Prototype Cylinders, I would have done an extra 2400 damage over the course of a 15 minute fight. WOW THATS SO MUCH WHAT A GOOD USE OF A TALENT POINT! Prototype Cylinders doesnt even effect the Shocked (Tech) damage that you get from the Ion overload talent.

4. Accuracy is useless: WRONG! Sure, there are tradeoffs. You lose some shield. The good news is that your shield rating will be high enough that you will begin to benifit from the opposite of diminishing returns. You are losing less shield % because you are so far along the curve at the upper tier of gear that the tradeoff is minimal. Not to mention, In order to keep Heat blast's cooldown down as low as possible, you have to be able to land hits with your Rocket Punch and Rail Shot.

5. No I'm not the person who thinks tank damage is insignificant. I consistently pull ~1200 dps patchwerk and obviously I understand the value of 600k damage on a boss."

1. Correct statement of what we should do, wrong way to do it. Shield chance is our primary Heat blast friend, rapidshot is a waste of energy from your fingers.

2. You are at some point right, but you forgot that it triggers Flame Engine. So its kinda a semi filler. But you shouldn't have to much time for fillers anyway. Rapid shot is a waste of finger energy.

3. You might be right, I have to look into that. But as threat generator per dps gained, its alot higher then most of our skills.

4. Rocket punch/Rail shot I believe is mostly Tech. Not alot you need to almost never miss with it. That said, imo accuracy on a tank, which main job is to take as little damage as possible, is a huge waste! The trade off by lowering your Heat Blast cd with 1 sec, does not over weight the benefits of having 1% shield chance. Getting hit 100 times, you gain 1 40% shield extra compared to 3% more chance to maybe getting 25% absorb if you luckly would get a hit in when its not on internal CD. See where I'm going?

5. Didn't read the start....

Powertech tanking is a joke now compared to Jugger and Assassin - I kinda give up explaining all the reasons why, but .. Saber reflect >>>>> all powertech abilities for damage reduction AND agro building.

I've been raiding in a team with a jugger tank for a while now - we used to be about even on DPS with me inching slightly ahead at times but overall we both had to fight for threat on certain encounters. After 2.0 he doesn't even need to use taunts anymore, whereas I seem to be struggling just the same in all the same places as ever. Where I hit 8-900 DPS he easily clears 11-1200. A really noticeable difference in threat generation.

Powertechs before 2.0 were the best damage soaking class but had the fewest useful cooldowns to use in a pinch. Assassin was the most cooldown/active ability reliant and Jugger fell somewhere in the middle.

Now, not only are powertechs the least damage resistant (considering jugger and assa both have short cooldown / always on active abilities radically improving their defensive stats), but they also have the worst cooldown selection of any tank. Powertechs got hit by far the hardest in the gear rating "rebalancing". I dont even know where to begin to fix this, I think I'll just finally take my Jugger to 55....

Oh and the shoulder missile damage is a joke, it hardly builds any threat, and the self heal is broken. So ... really, FU BW.

Even without beeing hit (target dummy) I'm doing more dps then what you've stated and dps != threat.

Substainable dps towards 55 elite hitting back: 1.2k

Substainable TPS towards same mob: 2.6k

Factors lowering dps/tps: Knockbacks, mob shielding, ect.

If you went all defense and have a low shield, your agro will suffer.

I'll do a parser on next weeks S&V vs our jugg tank to see about the damage taken.

If you went all defense and have a low shield, your agro will suffer.

This is a little misleading. While yes, shielding vents heat, aside from augments, shield and defense are independent of eachother. Shield is interchangeable with accuracy, alacrity and surge, while defense is with absorb. So yes, having more shield will get you better heat management and therefore hopefully more threat, there really isnt a substantial amount of your budget available to swap one for the other. Shield is a fairly static number, because the only mod with it will be the enhancement. Can you augment full shield? Of course, but it will hurt you net mitigation, and hopefully no one thinks that is a good idea. Currently Defense is the far and away best stat, at least at the current stat budget, because absorb is so dependent on shield. Hopefully eventually well have enough room to aug some shield, but currently that isnt the case. Plus with free flamethrower heat management is stupid easy, assuming you arent spamming flameburst for no reason. Just my two cents