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This is why we hate PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
This is why we hate PvP

ZUHFB's Avatar


ZUHFB
06.19.2022 , 01:54 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandergroth View Post
I bet you have 330 gear, augmented, are a ranked player and only join warzones in your ranked group, right?

Bioware can fix that easily by banning ranked players from casual warzones.
They already made their decision by playing ranked pvp. So queue them against other ranked players and not casuals. Easy as that.
LTP is not helping anybody when 8 ranked players are ganking up on you and kill you in 2 seconds. There is nothing you can learn by that. It is only frustrating.
PvP is almost dead because ranked players are terrorizing casual gamers that just want to finish their weekly quests for gear or their GS objectives.
And no guide, no overrated statement, and no theoretical objections will change that.
Ranked players must not be queued for casual warzones. Period.
Excuse me what? Why shouldn't we be able to participate in normals?

100% you are just mad you got farmed.
professional combat rez farmer

TmoneyTime's Avatar


TmoneyTime
06.20.2022 , 07:52 AM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandergroth View Post
I bet you have 330 gear, augmented, are a ranked player and only join warzones in your ranked group, right?

Bioware can fix that easily by banning ranked players from casual warzones.
They already made their decision by playing ranked pvp. So queue them against other ranked players and not casuals. Easy as that.
LTP is not helping anybody when 8 ranked players are ganking up on you and kill you in 2 seconds. There is nothing you can learn by that. It is only frustrating.
PvP is almost dead because ranked players are terrorizing casual gamers that just want to finish their weekly quests for gear or their GS objectives.
And no guide, no overrated statement, and no theoretical objections will change that.
Ranked players must not be queued for casual warzones. Period.
Lets go through this one at a time:

[I]Bioware can fix that easily by banning ranked players from casual warzones.[/I]

PVP in its very nature is not casual. I don't know where in the world this whole casual pvp term has come from, but any kind of pvp is a competitive mode. Just because there is no number attached to it doesn't mean its not competitive.

LTP is not helping anybody when 8 ranked players are ganking up on you and kill you in 2 seconds. There is nothing you can learn by that. It is only frustrating.


LTP is a big deal. I bet you have spent less time in warzones then most good pvpers have spent parsing. No one likes to get farmed. This is matchmaking fault, but we will never see that fixed. Instead of complaining think about how you can get better. If you want to que with me or have me watch some games and help you. I am more then willing.

PvP is almost dead because ranked players are terrorizing casual gamers that just want to finish their weekly quests for gear or their GS objectives.

I dont understand what game mode you want. This question is like saying I want to PVP but only against people worse then me. Frankly I find it fun messing with premades and trolling them in chat. They get sooo mad, stop taking it so serious.

And no guide, no overrated statement, and no theoretical objections will change that.
Ranked players must not be queued for casual warzones
.


What kind of system is this? So you que for arenas and you can que for battlegrounds. That's the exact same thing as saying wellp you started playing a tank, so you'll just play a tank. This is a logical fallacy and is impossible in game wise.

The truth is, Most PVP players were bad when they started. The game has a learning curve that requires information that is not in game. ITs not friendly to new players and doesn't do a good job of explaining how/what pvp is and works. That's what your feeling. You don't understand what is going on, thus you think its unfair. There is going to be some content coming to help solve this but its not ready.(Mainly due to how busy at work a few of us are right now).

I would suggest asking those same players for help. If not I'll answer any questions you have.
Twitch TV Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/l_e_c_k_o Youtube: Lecko

Vandergroth's Avatar


Vandergroth
06.20.2022 , 02:47 PM | #93
This is the first time someone at least tries to be of help. Thanks for that! I will try to explain.

Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
Lets go through this one at a time:
Indeed.

Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
[I]Bioware can fix that easily by banning ranked players from casual warzones.[/I]

PVP in its very nature is not casual. I don't know where in the world this whole casual pvp term has come from, but any kind of pvp is a competitive mode. Just because there is no number attached to it doesn't mean its not competitive.
Of course pvp is competitive. I did not say it wasn't. I enjoy warzone pvp a lot. I do almost nothing else. Thing is, that ranked players are playing pvp in another league than casual gamers. That is why they compete in ranked games for special rewards, right? They are especially good at what they do, right? Why don't highschool kids play in the Superbowl? Any suggestions? Why do ranked players participate in warzones? Maybe there is no 'number' attached to it, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be. There are people that just want to have a good time playing pvp warzones. I don't mind losing a game as long as it was a fun time. And I enjoy winning as long as the game was challenging. Getting globaled 16 minutes straight in VS does not make any fun and there is no challenge to be had. Losing HB in less than 4 minutes does not make fun. Arena is not a warzone and doesn't make any fun at all.
Ranked players should not be allowed to queue for 'normal' - not ranked - warzones, as professional football players are not allowed to play in highschool football games. Simple as that.

Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
LTP is not helping anybody when 8 ranked players are ganking up on you and kill you in 2 seconds. There is nothing you can learn by that. It is only frustrating.


LTP is a big deal. I bet you have spent less time in warzones then most good pvpers have spent parsing. No one likes to get farmed. This is matchmaking fault, but we will never see that fixed. Instead of complaining think about how you can get better. If you want to que with me or have me watch some games and help you. I am more then willing.
As I said, I enjoy pvp warzones a lot. I do almost nothing else. Like 4-5 hours a day. As I go along I LTP. But I don't reach the point where I become the unstoppable killing machine ranked players became. Maybe because I don't own a mouse with 246 buttons on it. Maybe because I am no keybinding god. Maybe because I don't get the clue for two-hitting tanks. I enjoy collecting the objectives and win/lose the game as best as I can.
The matchmaking fault can easily be fixed by giving ranked players their own warzones. You are registered for ranked games? You are matched with other players that are registered for ranked games. This should be the easiest database query ever. Like at most 5 lines of code? Maybe 6?
Maybe you see my suggestion as 'complaining', could be. I think about getting better but against 8 ranked players in 2 pre-made groups you can think about whatever you want, you won't get better. You get better when matched against people that are on your level of skill, experience and equipment. Or putting it more simple: against other casual - nor ranked - players.
I would like to be mentored. When you do have a character on the German server Tulak Hord I would appreciate your company. Thanks for the offer.


Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
PvP is almost dead because ranked players are terrorizing casual gamers that just want to finish their weekly quests for gear or their GS objectives.

I dont understand what game mode you want. This question is like saying I want to PVP but only against people worse then me. Frankly I find it fun messing with premades and trolling them in chat. They get sooo mad, stop taking it so serious.
On my server there are round about 40 people playing pvp. Mostly you are matched with and against the same people for 4-8 hours, depending on the day of the week. Like 20 of them are ranked players. So getting a group of people that are just as bad as you are yourself is the most challenging part. But sometimes it happens. 8 casuals matched against 8 casuals. Awesome games. A lot of fun to be had, no matter win or lose. The games are challenging, funny, and rewarding. I like losing 12 fun games with other casuals more than winning 4 games with ranked players. And losing 12 games against ranked players is the most annoying waste of time there is. Especially when the ranked players don't even care about winning and only care about their kill results. I troll those ranked players in VS when we were defenders first by just opening the first door and ending the game as quickly as possible.
Maybe I was able to show you, that I don't want to be matched against players that are worse than me, I just don't want to be matched against ranked players. Ranked players are very skilled, no doubt, but they are way out of the league casual gamers are. They should have their own warzones. On my server that would mean that 20 ranked players would have their challenging games and 20 casual gamers would have their own challenging games. Again, I don't mind losing. I want to have fun. But there is no fun to be had when ranked players are in the game. Just like in the football analogy I mentioned. Professionals are not allowed in non-professional games. So why not in SWTOR?

Another idea would be to activate the ignore-list for pvp. Then I could put the 20 ranked players on my list and will never be matched with or against them anymore. I wouldn't mind waiting 20-30 minutes for a fun pvp game.

Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
And no guide, no overrated statement, and no theoretical objections will change that.
Ranked players must not be queued for casual warzones
.


What kind of system is this? So you que for arenas and you can que for battlegrounds. That's the exact same thing as saying wellp you started playing a tank, so you'll just play a tank. This is a logical fallacy and is impossible in game wise.
No, it is not. As explained above, ranked players are professionals. So let them play in their professional games. Somewhere in the code is a database where participants in ranked games are registered. Use it for matching purposes. Simple as that.
What kind of system that is? A real life system by which sports are done for ages. It is not rocket science.
To address the 'tank' thingy: "Well, you don't want to be a tank anymore? Make a new character."
No rocket science either.

Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
The truth is, Most PVP players were bad when they started. The game has a learning curve that requires information that is not in game. ITs not friendly to new players and doesn't do a good job of explaining how/what pvp is and works. That's what your feeling. You don't understand what is going on, thus you think its unfair. There is going to be some content coming to help solve this but its not ready.
I play SWTOR for 10 years now. I experienced pvp in all eras of the game. And I think I reached the point where no information - in game or otherwise - will change that. I totally understand what is going on. Ranked players love terrorizing casual players in warzones for their own pleasure. Sometimes they even admit it. Sometimes they tell other ranked players, that they just want to farm kills and don't care about winning. Sometimes they accidentally tell you that they are just in the game to sabotage your team so their buddies win. I experienced all of that more than once. And yes, that is unfair.
That there will be content to help in this matter is highly unlikely.
I already mentioned two simple tweaks to end the problem.
1) Match ranked against ranked and casual against casual. Simple database query.
2) Activate the ignore-list for pvp. When somebody is on my ignore-list I don't want to play with them at all. Sadly I still see their emotes and am matched with and against them in pvp. That can't be too difficult to fix. 2-4 lines of code maybe?

Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
(Mainly due to how busy at work a few of us are right now)
This almost sounds like you are one of the developers. Then go for it. Databased query or game-wide active ignore-list. Problem solved. Either one of those solutions shouldn't take you more than a day and would end the discussion about pvp problems that do not involve bugs, imbalance, favored classes, or broken equipment up- or downgrades.

Quote: Originally Posted by TmoneyTime View Post
I would suggest asking those same players for help. If not I'll answer any questions you have.
Pardon me, but those same players are the last people on earth I would want to have contact with. They would all be on my ignore-list, if it would work correctly. They are not nice people. Maybe on your server they are the best. Could be, on my server they are horrible people. As I mentioned earlier "This is the first time someone at least tries to be of help. Thanks for that!"

I put like 30 questions down here, but realized they were corrupted by emotions. So I won't bother you with them here and now. Thanks for the offer none the less.

And many thanks for the first constructive reply I've read on the matter.

Xerekfell's Avatar


Xerekfell
06.20.2022 , 03:25 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by EllieAnne View Post
Now that BW has forced us back into PvP with Galactic Season I'm sure the data they've been collecting for 6 months now says everyone loves PvP since they made the changes since sooooooo many more players are in warzones. So if you feel forced into PvP because of GS, tell us why you hate PvP. I'd say tell Bioware but if they do read this thread (not likely) then they still won't care.

For me it is the imbalance. Maybe not the kind you are thinking but the imbalance in stun-locks, releases, self-heals, shields, etc. I just got out of a PvP where 2 people were able to hold off 7 of us from capturing a pylon. I know there will be the ubergods of PvP that will come in and say "know yer class" or "you all suck" or "you need to try harder" but the bottom line is that when 2 people can hold off 7 for an extended time, something is broken. They were spamming CC. They would break our CC. They would self-heal for over 50% HP. They would spam their shields and reflects. I wouldn't mind losing in PvP if they were just better fighters than I am, but these are not straight up fights. These are toons loading up on PvP proficiencies and tacticals in order to pwn players through mechanics - not fighting. And then you get them grouping up for warzones and you are pretty much dead. How can I have to have fun when I can't even fight since they can spam stuns on me and if we CC them there is no effect and if my team by some miracle gets them down to 20% health - oh they self-healed back to 80% ... repeat as needed.
You just answered several of your own questions in this tirade of stupidity, Perhaps learning the game and how to counter classes could make you stand a better chance. Imagine playing PVP to click nodes and run back and forth. Literally anti pvp gameplay. Again, perhaps learning your class would help you but that's just me. Typically objective players have very limited game knowledge or anything. In their guilds they're always running SM ops and never progressing to HM and above. This paragraph tells me all i need to know about you and where you're at in the game. You have very little knowledge of the game, stuck doing SM ops, etc. If you want to get out of this endless loop then i'd suggest learning your class and how others work.

TmoneyTime's Avatar


TmoneyTime
06.21.2022 , 04:13 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandergroth View Post
This is the first time someone at least tries to be of help. Thanks for that! I will try to explain.

Indeed.

Of course pvp is competitive. I did not say it wasn't. I enjoy warzone pvp a lot. I do almost nothing else. Thing is, that ranked players are playing pvp in another league than casual gamers.

As I said, I enjoy pvp warzones a lot. I do almost nothing else. Like 4-5 hours a day. As I go along I LTP. But I don't reach the point where I become the unstoppable killing machine ranked players became. Maybe because I don't own a mouse with 246 buttons on it. Maybe because I am no keybinding god. I enjoy collecting the objectives and win/lose the game as best as I can.

I would like to be mentored. When you do have a character on the German server Tulak Hord I would appreciate your company. Thanks for the offer.

I wouldn't mind waiting 20-30 minutes for a fun pvp game.

No, it is not. As explained above, ranked players are professionals. So let them play in their professional games. Somewhere in the code is a database where participants in ranked games are registered. Use it for matching purposes. Simple as that.

I play SWTOR for 10 years now. I experienced pvp in all eras of the game. And I think I reached the point where no information - in game or otherwise - will change that. I totally understand what is going on. Ranked players love terrorizing casual players in warzones for their own pleasure. Sometimes they even admit it. Sometimes they tell other ranked players, that they just want to farm kills and don't care about winning.
That there will be content to help in this matter is highly unlikely.

This almost sounds like you are one of the developers.

They are not nice people. Maybe on your server they are the best. Could be, on my server they are horrible people. As I mentioned earlier "This is the first time someone at least tries to be of help. Thanks for that!"
Again I will take it one question/point at a time.

Of course pvp is competitive. I did not say it wasn't. I enjoy warzone pvp a lot. I do almost nothing else. Thing is, that ranked players are playing pvp in another league than casual gamers

We first need to get out of this mindset. It's already a defeatist attitude. There is no difference between the people that play Arenas vs Battle Grounds. Most players will play in both at some point in time. PVPers are PVPers nothing more nothing less. It doesn't matter what que they are in, some of the best players in the game do not play in ranked and vice versa.

Maybe because I don't own a mouse with 246 buttons on it. Maybe because I am no key binding god. I enjoy collecting the objectives and win/lose the game as best as I can.

I'm not going to lie to you, If you want to pvp at any level you need to learn to keybind. You don't have to use a MMO mouse. I actually hate them. I use a sensei ten with 5 buttons that I use 3 of. Mostly for UI stuff and turning. None of my ability's are on my mouse. I prefer to use shift and alt modifiers no macros.

Yes if you want to play pvp at a good level you need to key bind. If your refusing too honestly that is why your having games like you had. Honestly collecting objectives is a trap the game has put in. What actually matters in 8s is map control. You get map control by dps pressure that leads to objectives. Its not really your fault for not knowing this, Blame the removal of ranked 8s that taught people how to play.

I play SWTOR for 10 years now. I experienced pvp in all eras of the game. And I think I reached the point where no information - in game or otherwise - will change that. I totally understand what is going on

I'm going to disagree with this statement. I just recently put more practice into parsing and getting my rotation down better. I do this all the time. No way there is not something your doing wrong. We all can improve. For me my parse was falling short of 28k in pvp gear due to the way I was using deadly saber the in watchman spec. Not delaying it enough with the changes to burning Zen. I have switched back to playing it more like 2.0 and seen a 1k dps increase.

The point of that isn't to brag, but to ask do you know what your dps parse is? what it was last patch? what numbers others are pulling the same class?. Saying you cant get better is giving up. Every single player can get better.

I would like to be mentored. When you do have a character on the German server Tulak Hord I would appreciate your company. Thanks for the offer.


I will be more then happy to server transfer there when I have some free time and go over things with you. Honestly I need to get 1 toon on each server anyway to help with issues like this in the future.

This almost sounds like you are one of the developers.

Not a Dev but have some plans for the pvp revamp with some others. Cant go into details right now.
Twitch TV Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/l_e_c_k_o Youtube: Lecko

AndriusAjax's Avatar


AndriusAjax
06.22.2022 , 08:21 AM | #96
Lol after reading some of these posts... I'm embarrassed that I dipped my toes back in the water that is the swtor forums.

septru's Avatar


septru
06.24.2022 , 09:37 AM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandergroth View Post
Ranked players love terrorizing casual players in warzones for their own pleasure. Sometimes they even admit it.
I admit it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ-3SELuuvw
-Prum
All opinions are my own and should be taken very seriously... except for these:

Quote: Originally Posted by bluehufsa View Post
NiM players constantly break ToS by causing class-based segregation and discrimination.

SOLRanger's Avatar


SOLRanger
06.24.2022 , 01:25 PM | #98
"PvP"

It is probably the most boring and tedious experience in this game, apart from GSF.

Imagine PvP where players actually die from taking damage rather than run around being immortal, unthinkable.

DirtyDiggler's Avatar


DirtyDiggler
06.25.2022 , 12:22 PM | #99
This game has never been a pvp game, from day 1 they screwed up pvp.

Anyone taking pvp serious at this point, some 10 years later is as laughable as the obi-wan tv show.

If you were serious about pvp you would not be playing this game.

This game is about story, I have been coming back to it for 10 years, making new toons, re-experiencing the story. I never once thought, I need to go play SWTOR for some pvp action.
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Chiperiu's Avatar


Chiperiu
06.27.2022 , 02:20 AM | #100
Just a few personal thoughts on the matter.

@Vandergroth said:

Quote: Originally Posted by Vandergroth View Post
I bet you have 330 gear, augmented, are a ranked player and only join warzones in your ranked group, right?

Bioware can fix that easily by banning ranked players from casual warzones.
They already made their decision by playing ranked pvp. So queue them against other ranked players and not casuals. Easy as that.
328, primarily Thyrsian with a few Rakata pieces, using purple augs here, have they fixed the bug where augs don't matter in PVP? Barely dipped my toes in Ranked. I mostly queue on my own (and when I'm in a group they will usually not be active Ranked players). My apologies, but are you saying that a Ranked noob like myself who just wanted to see what all the hubbub was about during the off-season period should never get to do a WZ on any alt that ever did a Ranked queue? My apologies, but I disagree.

There is also this:

Quote: Originally Posted by Vandergroth View Post
Ranked players should not be allowed to queue for 'normal' - not ranked - warzones, as professional football players are not allowed to play in highschool football games. Simple as that.
I apologize again, but I disagree here as well. If we're talking about association football, or soccer, rather than American football (we might both be more familiar with the former if you play on Tulak Hord), then there are ample opportunities for pick-up matches between random people, friendly matches, or even tournaments which do not affect a team or a player's local, national or international standing. Much like SWTOR players earn Valor, both football players and teams become better known and get to practice and / or hone their skills during the off-season, or during breaks, in 'unranked' encounters. If anything, were I to suggest any kind of matchmaking, I would say 'use average Valor rank to form similar teams', frustrating as it can get for someone who hit 500 to get teammates with way lower ranks, but, seriously... you can both carry and teach in the process, just watch out for the ones who can actually tunnel you.

In my case, to avoid some amount of frustration, I never queue for randoms in other MMOs if I can't carry the whole team in PVE, at least.

(This does not solve the premade-vs-pug issue, I know. Someone smarter than myself might be needed to deal with that one. Look, I used to earn a living by hitting a ball with my head in order to score points often enough, cut me some slack here.)

Other people have mentioned 'toxicity'. Yes, this is a thing. However, this is also an online game played among people who are, oftentimes, thousands of miles apart. If someone from the Internet telling you to kill yourself will make you even consider it, please, seek professional assistance; there are specialists who work pro bono out there if you can't afford their fees. If you get insulted by some random person and it ends up being a genuine blow to your self-esteem, do the same and understand this:

There are people in the world who lead unpleasant lives, so a bunch of them take it out on whoever they can harm and sometimes derive some temporary relief and / or satisfaction from it. If you're more empathic, respect their pain and be happy with the fact that you may well be in a better place. If not, just focus your negative emotions, speak some swear words where you're playing, rather than typing them out, then move on. Seriously, how are you going to handle real life if you care too much about the rage of some random online stranger who can't ever get to you and express it in person?

Not gonna say that SWTOR's PVP is or has ever been 'good', whatever that means, but it is better than the ones found in games where you just can't do it without P2W or FoMO gear. EA has games with both. This is not one of them. I'm not protecting them (or Disney, for that matter, they can take their Vented sabers and try to think about what would happen if one's hand can slip on that impromptu crossguard, nevermind their Rey Sue or their Kylo Stu), but it can be worse. Seriously, if you're willing to hunt for max gear, check out the future R-4 op on YouTube or on the PTS, if you can pull off a group for it. That's what's coming.