Never in my online gaming life and experience have I ever witnessed such a massive frack job committed by developers as I am witnessing here. Your company's development staff have lost their ever loving collective minds. 100 credits for 1,000,000 + 3000 fragments? Next time you all want to frack us over, kiss us first. Worse. Development. Staff. Ever!

And here I thought MiHoYo was being stingy at best. Probably not the best game or developer to compare to, but it was the first community I actively felt to engage in (protesting included) and I'm glad it was the first company I got to criticize, cause holy **** this is by far the worst treatment I have ever seen.

I stopped playing five years ago and just came back around this month, I even just got subbed. I was even thinking of buying a few CCs for HK's chapter but then this happens. Man, I'm just disappointed. Not to mention the conspiracy theory I just read a few replies back. And here I was, just about to enjoy playing SWTOR again.

Couple of thoughts about this. Many of the tacticals that are being removed are being baked into the class. Some are likely being removed to assist with class balance. I don't see anything objectionable here though. Go to sleep will be missed I guess, but you can still run 4 stealth classes and just stealth by everything. Or take the 15 seconds and kill the mob.

Does it suck that they are removing them and only giving back 100 credits. Yeah. But no matter when they were going to do this, someone would be unhappy. And really, 1 million isn't a huge amount of credits.

The entire point to all the gear being legacy bound is that you can share it across your legacy. Not sure why you would need to purchase more than 1 or 2 of a given tactical, but that is on you. The devs made it easy to not have to buy a ton of the same gear. For my DPS and heal toons (15 or so that I play regularly) I have a single set of left side gear.

And just a reminder, a lot of players don't post in the forums. I almost never do. Mostly because every thread turns into the same arguments with the same dozen people. These forums are an echo chamber that makes reddit look sane. So don't assume that just because there are a dozen or so pages on this topic that the majority of SWtOR players don't support this. Or even care on way or the other.

Since I probably won't be posting anywhere else, I guess I will express that I am hopeful that 7.0 is good and I am excited. I did play on the PTS and the gearing was really easy. Certainly needed some tweaks (tech frags were noticed and addressed). I am sure that class balance is going to be terrible the first few weeks, but it generally is at the beginning of any expansion.

so whats AP/tactics useing now?

The Powerlode tactical is being reworked and is going to be merged into the ability.

No NiM crystals means less people will see NiM content. Any explanation why you want less people to see your content?

Uh, Nightmare content has been doable *without* the item primarily used by sales teams. I don't see an issue here except this will certainly change things with those sales groups. The balance for 7.0 is currently unknown in that will the content be clearable without it? On PTS, the level 80 Nightmare content was varying.

Couple of thoughts about this. Many of the tacticals that are being removed are being baked into the class. Some are likely being removed to assist with class balance. I don't see anything objectionable here though. Go to sleep will be missed I guess, but you can still run 4 stealth classes and just stealth by everything. Or take the 15 seconds and kill the mob.

This pretty much sums it up.

I can't tell if people are willfully ignorant, or simply looking for something to rage about.

I caught myself several times on thinking about the same conspiracy theory: they try to alienate us for a particular purpose. To make it easier for us saying the final farewell, either right now or soon, before the license expires and SWTOR servers will be shut down.

Believe me, I don’t like thinking this is a possibility, but seeing negative change after negative change after negative change based solely on their game metrics, when BW _knows_ from player feedback those are profoundly bad moves that will drive players away? It’s hard to come to any other conclusion, no matter how hard I try. At some point, mere incompetence at/mistakes with 7.0 design stop being options. If I didn’t care about this game, I wouldn’t bother posting, but I do care. Not that I think any of us players have any impact anymore, as is clear from a 100 credit “refund” for items that cost 3000 tech frags to replace. The money isn’t the issue. The time spent to grind tech frags to get the new tactical is a significant time burden to those affected, and we can’t even “stock up” on more than 11,000 tech frags ahead of time. I’m losing tacticals on at least 15 of my toons. Grinding tech frags will take a lot longer in 7.0, so replacing those will require a substantial amount of time. The grind involved on the PTS made me realize it’s not worth it—at least at 7.0 launch. And that’s just the tactical problem alone. Maybe BW will discover that ignoring players doesn’t work after thousands of people unsubscribe. Maybe they’ll even learn that before the game dies. Hard to believe they don’t already know this, however, hence the conspiracy theory.

Uh, Nightmare content has been doable *without* the item primarily used by sales teams. I don't see an issue here except this will certainly change things with those sales groups. The balance for 7.0 is currently unknown in that will the content be clearable without it? On PTS, the level 80 Nightmare content was varying.

My only issue with removing crystals and the schematics is that they should be fully refunded. Getting 50 gree tokens requires some serious grinding of an event that is only active a few times a year. And if I understood correctly from someone else's post: the vendor is still selling the schematics without any warning, just a few days before they will be removed. That's just outrageous, they should have been removed from the vendor already. And they should be fully refunded!

I also worry about the tactical cheevos. I have them all but I know a bunch of people who don't and they only have a few days left to do it. I don't think Kai Zykken is going to drop those items after 7.0 if they are being removed from the game. Someone asked about it already, but we are not getting a response I guess.

OMG, the entitlement in this thread...

Most of you complainers treat this like a job. It's not. This is a game you play for fun. Period.

I've been off and on since beta and I agree that updates have not all been pretty. Balance has been horrible at times. Itemization has been confusing. Communication from the team has been poor more often than not. We went for years without a roadmap, then we had one, now we don't. I get it. It could be better.

FYI, the customer is not always right, particularly when there are thousands of customers and many different competing viewpoints.

I agree that refunding 100 credits for something that cost 1M is ridiculous, insulting, and dare I say offensive. But whatever. Nobody said the world is fair. My life will go on. The good news is that you have a choice.

My only issue with removing crystals and the schematics is that they should be fully refunded. Getting 50 gree tokens requires some serious grinding of an event that is only active a few times a year. And if I understood correctly from someone else's post: the vendor is still selling the schematics without any warning, just a few days before they will be removed. That's just outrageous, they should have been removed from the vendor already. And they should be fully refunded! .

QFE ^

It's just another example of recent (and rampant) sloppyness on BioWare's part. ( not JackieKo , she's just the messenger ) .

As a personal consolation though, since i've never even gotten to use the darn 'Nightmare Crystal' (being that apparently it's so "frowned upon" by groups ) , i fully plan on crafting a bunch of them this weekend and getting some "cheap" NiM cheevos ( like NiM 'Gods' ) that i still need.

I agree that refunding 100 credits for something that cost 1M is ridiculous, insulting, and dare I say offensive. But whatever. Nobody said the world is fair. My life will go on. The good news is that you have a choice.

This is the issue as far as I am concerned. It's like a schoolyard bully taking another kid's lunch and spitting on them as a form of compensation. It's a wrong and disgusting thing to do in my opinion.

its as if you want to kill the game completely and lose subs , also why on earth would you announce that just 4 days before the update , so much could have been done or avoiding , like a whole grind for gree reputation to get to legendary status , or grinding tech frags for tacticals to get the achievements or for renown boosts , you can just let us keep them at least but only useable at lvl 80 .

also youre literally taking out the best tacticals for most classes and specs , like how is that something logical , with this you leave powertech/vanguard useless and worthless , when before it was legit my favorite dps class , and other examples , this is just insane .

think , dudes , think .

My only issue with removing crystals and the schematics is that they should be fully refunded. Getting 50 gree tokens requires some serious grinding of an event that is only active a few times a year. And if I understood correctly from someone else's post: the vendor is still selling the schematics without any warning, just a few days before they will be removed. That's just outrageous, they should have been removed from the vendor already. And they should be fully refunded!

This is kinda a tough one. They've been out for years and people have been getting use out of them for years. I think they got more than their 50 token investment out of them.

However, they should NOT still be on the vendor if they're just going to be removed in a few days.

With Renown and Renown Caches being removed, what happens to the Renown Stash?

Will that go away as well and what will happen to the items in it?

Some of my chars still have a couple of command-crate weapons stored there...

Tacticals listed are being removed because their effects moved into Class Ability Packages, are not working as intended, or encouraged negative gameplay such as Go to Sleep and Fanged God Form respectively. Because Class Abilities will be receiving the effects of the Tacticals being removed, new Tacticals will not be added.

or encouraged negative gameplay such as Go to Sleep and Fanged God Form respectively.

Not blaming you here, you're prob just passing along what you could get some dev lead to tell you, but the part about "encouraged negative gameplay" is incredibly vague as a reason to the point of being little better than no reason given at all. In what way exactly were they being abused? Did the team factor in enjoyment received from using them? Was it even taken under consideration to nerf them in regards to this alleged "encouraging negative gameplay" rather than delete them completely?

Crystal of Nightmare Fury is being removed because players have the ability to become stronger in 7.0 more than they have been able to in previous updates.

Oh and this part is equally vague in its own way and doesn't make much sense. From the reports I've seen, stuff actually takes longer to kill on PTS (last people saw of it) than on live, so unless you've changed the balancing since you took PTS down and gone completely in the other direction, this seems backwards as a reason.

*Holds his thermonuclear fusion missile*

You will never take my tactical away from me!!! :'(

"We listen and observe your feedback" is the biggest lie you seem to believe. Time and time again people are complaining on the way you handle things. And I am not talking about credits, tech fragments and the rest. I am taking about the audacity you approach us. No respects, no decency, no explanation. You are saying stuff is getting removed, people get angry. Why oh why you wouldn't just calm their minds with a simple, yet crucial message: we remove these tacticals, because this and that, BUT, we are giving you these ones.

It would calm some of us here. There is no explanation, no plans revealed to us for something new. Just more of the same bs.

Listen and Observe does not mean Listen and take things under advisement and actually do what the players want. Listen and Observe just means they are listening to players but may or may not do what the players want or they may do what they themselves want to do regardless of what the player base does. In those terms they have not actually lied about it other than maybe release dates. People just assume things means something when it does not puzzles me.

Hi all,

 

Clarifying some info and answering a couple questions that came in from the thread.

 

Tacticals listed are being removed because their effects moved into Class Ability Packages, are not working as intended, or encouraged negative gameplay such as Go to Sleep and Fanged God Form respectively. Because Class Abilities will be receiving the effects of the Tacticals being removed, new Tacticals will not be added.

 

Crystal of Nightmare Fury is being removed because players have the ability to become stronger in 7.0 more than they have been able to in previous updates.

 

The Spoils of War achievements requiring Tacticals that will be removed have been adjusted to no longer require said Tacticals.

 

The schematics that would be needed to craft Tacticals will not be able to be purchased from Kai Zykken.

 

French and German translations of the listed items have been created.

Why these tacticals are being removed isn't really the problem. It's what's being done to cushion the blow for the players that are left holding the bag, especially in those cases of tacticals that weren't working as intended or "encouraged negative gameplay". Fanged God Form was the defacto best tactical for Combat/Carnage not just because of the crit buff, but because of the resource management. The class has awful resource management (something that wasn't clear in testing because you guys didn't make clear Fanged God Form would be going away) and needed that help, and now it's gone.

But that's a choice you guys made, sure. It sucks for a player like me who's mained that class since I started playing, but balance ebbs and flows, whatever. But the fact that not only do I lose the best tactical I had, but now I also have to go out and buy a new one from scratch because you guys only saw fit to give us 100 credits in return, while other players get to keep their best in slot tacticals or in some cases have their tacticals entirely redesigned without having to buy a new one? That's where I have a major problem.

I will not accept this idea that you guys couldn't do better here. If I can spitball 3 ideas of the top of my head in a previous post, you guys can do better than 100 credits. I expect better from you, way better than this. Maybe I shouldn't, but I do.

Also, again I'm going to ask this, why are we just now hearing about this? A lot of tacticals were off the vendors on PTS in October of last year, why are we just now being told they're being removed and no compensation whatsoever is being given? Why did you wait until less than a week before launch to announce this?

Crystal of Nightmare Fury is being removed because players have the ability to become stronger in 7.0 more than they have been able to in previous updates.

I don't mind if you're removing them in order to combat selling titles/achievements/gear, or players using them to make the content easier than it's meant to be (or hell, just if you don't want to balance it to where it's not broken when crystaled)... I can tell you sales will continue without crystals (they'll just be done by fewer players, who will charge more), and that no raider worth their salt uses the crystals to actually clear content anyway.

However, if the reason you gave above is actually true, then there better be some sort of anti-crystal (with its own chivis), otherwise there won't be any fun for players who actually want a challenge.

Raiders will move on, en mass, much as they did when it was announced that Rav/ToS weren't getting a NiM mode.

I don't mind if you're removing them in order to combat selling titles/achievements/gear, or players using them to make the content easier than it's meant to be (or hell, just if you don't want to balance it to where it's not broken when crystaled)... I can tell you sales will continue without crystals (they'll just be done by fewer players, who will charge more), and that no raider worth their salt uses the crystals to actually clear content anyway.

 

However, if the reason you gave above is actually true, then there better be some sort of anti-crystal (with its own chivis), otherwise there won't be any fun for players who actually want a challenge.

 

Raiders will move on, en mass, much as they did when it was announced that Rav/ToS weren't getting a NiM mode.

 

The way I took that Dev comment was simply that over the course of the expansion we'll keep getting higher gear levels, so we'll grow more powerful in general then we have in other expansions. Remember they said they wouldn't rebalance content as new gear comes out. They also said Most content would be balanced around 318 gear rating. (what Most Content means is a good question however. Does it include NiM content or is that balanced around something else?)

Because Class Abilities will be receiving the effects of the Tacticals being removed, new Tacticals will not be added.

So to get this straight, not only do the affected combat styles lose abilities and utilities, they also lose variety in their tacticals - and receive nothing in return?

Also...Fanged God Form? Negative playstyle? It was the ONLY thing making combat and carnage at all viable, and even then they were worse than bother other disciplines in all content. The solution? Rework it....right? Oh nope...it's being removed completely. So remember that Vulkk interview where the dev basically said to trust that the team can balance things? Apparently balance = remove and sweep under the rug.

What.

Sure, yes, I know that some of these are being baked into the combat styles - but that's happening for all combat styles. Every combat style has ability morphs - it's just now apparently some disciplines will have both ability morphs AND tacticals while the others only have one. Having essentially two tacticals (morph + a new tactical) would likely be op, but it opens room for something new. Tacticals were supposed to be rotation defining things that change the way you play a combat style. They really should have been reworked instead of flat out removing them.

Giving players 100 credits in exchange is just another kick in the shins when the devs could have so easily made a token that lets you trade for a different tactical for free.

7.0 - where the amount that has been expanded is less than the amount being removed. There better be some really good plans for the rest of the year or bye bye subscription for another year or so.

Practically every single new piece of information about 7.0 brings more and more frustration.

The way I took that Dev comment was simply that over the course of the expansion we'll keep getting higher gear levels, so we'll grow more powerful in general then we have in other expansions. Remember they said they wouldn't rebalance content as new gear comes out. They also said Most content would be balanced around 318 gear rating. (what Most Content means is a good question however. Does it include NiM content or is that balanced around something else?)

Supposedly all content in the game will be clearable at that level and will be fairly trivial using the highest gear rating available to the least favourite/acceptable gear track (solo players) which I think was 326 or so.

However, if that's the case why do nightmare players need higher gear scores anyway?

Is master mode content balanced around the same level as story mode content?

It's just so vague and dumb.

Tacticals listed are being removed because their effects... encouraged negative gameplay such as Go to Sleep and Fanged God Form respectively.

Is it negative gameplay if it doesn't affect anyone else? I only ever used these tacticals to make my single player experience more fun. I wish there was some way to keep that functionality in a non-group context. It'll be missed.