An option at character creation would prevent our characters from growing organically. I'm a straight guy, but my female trooper has found Elara Dorne to be pretty damned intriguing, and, sure, I'd play that option out if I had a chance. I hadn't planned on it, didn't expect it, but that's how their story has developed.

 

That's how a game like this works best, IMO: allow us to just choose whatever makes the most sense to us at the time, and our stories can grow naturally out of those choices.

well if we are talking about strictly roleplaying a character you should have a good idea of their orientation already... However not everyone playing the game is a strict roleplayer so you do have a valid point (just posting this before the obligatory "zomg orientation isn't a choice" people get to it).

I am not gonna reroll just to get this when my smugglers already 50 with good gear , medals and other stuff =P . After having to do that already since there was no ac change. I would most likely just end up quitting this game if that was our only option. Not running back threw all that again just for this. To much time wasted. 43/67 datacrons that were annoying to get as well! I can assume there are others out there that have similar scenarios.

My main is a Jedi Consular who I'd describe as mostly asexual. She did develop attachments, but they are familial more than romantic so for her the addition of SGRA would likely not change much.

Now, my favorite alt, the character I love best, who I have the most fun playing and who is a dude unhappily in love with Corso - he's lvl 42, he's halfway through Hoth, and if SGRAs came tomorrow and the only option was to start from square one? I'd reroll him without a second thought. His story is so much more important than any crafting, gear or achievements to me.

But I still hope they go with the idea of a second chance in continuing companion content. Let people who haven't done the companion quests yet or starting a new character play it as if SGRAs for our beloved companions had always been there and give high level chars who've done it all a second chance at romancing companions through new conversations and quests (for everyone, OGRAs included + some nice wedded bliss/new challenges for those already happily in a relationship). That way just about everyone should be happy.

well if we are talking about strictly roleplaying a character you should have a good idea of their orientation already... However not everyone playing the game is a strict roleplayer so you do have a valid point (just posting this before the obligatory "zomg orientation isn't a choice" people get to it).

The great thing about fiction is that we can do a 180 at anytime if we want just for dramatic purposes.

Anyway I do not believe orientation is a choice but because of cultural pressures somethings may be repressed in one's personality for a long time. Now its clear to me looking back that I was always bisexual, but it was not until late in life that I acted upon it. Some of this was cultural conditioning, some of it was lack of opportunity. And then there was the time I was insisting I was straight because I had mistaken orientation for DEEDS not DESIRE.

So while one's orientation is innate, one's path towards accepting it can be one of self-discovery. If it was true for me in real life, why couldn't a similar situation be played out in the fiction of this role playing game? By "locking" the choices at character creation, you are cheating yourself out of potential storytelling material.

well if we are talking about strictly roleplaying a character you should have a good idea of their orientation already... However not everyone playing the game is a strict roleplayer so you do have a valid point (just posting this before the obligatory "zomg orientation isn't a choice" people get to it).

Not necessarily; it's always possible that your character has been (for example) heterosexual for their entire life, as far as they knew, but then they meet someone of their own gender who shakes that certainty and turns all their assumptions upside-down. People learn more about themselves and grow in real life, no reason it can't happen to our fictional characters.

By "locking" the choices at character creation, you are cheating yourself out of potential storytelling material.

Perfectly said.

The great thing about fiction is that we can do a 180 at anytime if we want just for dramatic purposes.

 

Anyway I do not believe orientation is a choice but because of cultural pressures somethings may be repressed in one's personality for a long time. Now its clear to me looking back that I was always bisexual, but it was not until late in life that I acted upon it. Some of this was cultural conditioning, some of it was lack of opportunity. And then there was the time I was insisting I was straight because I had mistaken orientation for DEEDS not DESIRE.

 

So while one's orientation is innate, one's path towards accepting it can be one of self-discovery. If it was true for me in real life, why couldn't a similar situation be played out in the fiction of this role playing game? By "locking" the choices at character creation, you are cheating yourself out of potential storytelling material.

I agree fully(and have gone through similar), however I do hope in a universe as advanced and seemingly accepting as the one in ToR(as some have pointed out earlier in the thread), the character wouldn't have to repress stuff. So again, with very strict roleplaying I don't think it would come up(though actually I guess you could get some kind of back story that would fit). Either way as I said not everyone is a strict roleplayer(I know I'm not), so it's a moot point...

I just wanted to keep the post from getting confused with people thinking he was saying orientation was a choice(good to be clear on that sort of stuff in these topics).

I'm a hypocritical homophobe who likes to play lesbian characters so as to fulfill his own perverse fantasies.

With that out of the way, I support having the option of flirting with either gender on either gender. That way everyone's happy (though officially I'm railing against SGRAs!).

Take that as you will.

For many reasons, what seems the simplest means of implementation to me has always been to simply use the optional conversational prompt choice already established and in use in the game for existing (opposite-gender) romantic or affectionate options. There is precedent in that this is the way it has always been handled, and the mechanism is already enabled.

No one has ever been able to present a rational argument why same-gender content ought to be handled differently. All we have ever heard in that regard is "I don't like it so I shouldn't have to see it." I'm sorry but, no, that does not constitute and adequate justification for the scripting and implementation of a new UI filter. Accomodating that desire is accomodating intolerance in the literal sense - those not willing to tolerate game content they dislike.

There is every indication that the method applied in the case of same-gender content will be the same already in place for opposite-gender content. First, no EA or BioWare title that I know of which has featured the option for same-gender affection has ever treated it differently. Second, what we have most recently heard regarding the development of same-gender content is that previous comments from last September stand unchanged. Among the commentary at that time was the following from Stephen Reid:

"Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them."

This is, literally, the last word on the subject. It is not indicative of a toggle system or of a checkbox at character generation. It describes the function of plainly marked choices already in place, with which everyone has been content in all other aspects of play. There is no reason same-gender content ought to be handled differently. Take it or leave it. It's up to you.

I'm a hypocritical homophobe who likes to play lesbian characters so as to fulfill his own perverse fantasies.

 

With that out of the way, I support having the option of flirting with either gender on either gender. That way everyone's happy (though officially I'm railing against SGRAs!).

 

Take that as you will.

Thanks for that, it made me laugh at the end of a long day

And your honesty is refreshing, I always find the best hypocrites are the honest ones

If all sexual orientation options are in the game, then the way one chooses to play that character in the game is a definite choice. Just because one's sexual orientation is one way or another does not mean one is forced to play that sexual orientation in the game. That would just be boring. The biggest issue currently though is that there is only one choice to be made in the game, and that is a heterosexual one.

The more choices the better, which is why I would rather be able to limit what dialogue choices are shown when I am playing a particular character. I'm the one creating him/her/it. Leaving aside the social issues involved, if I decide I'm going to play 'it' bisexual and multiracial, I should see all dialogue options, and filtered on down from there.

One of the problems with mixing game features with social issues is this, what if I wanted the addition of responding violently to a specific type gender flirt from an NPC? That is certainly realistic and might actually add to the story, especially if an NPC is programmed to respond that way, but would it be acceptable to those that are espousing freedom of choice? Such violence is distasteful, but the poignancy and learning experience from a story perspective certainly exists.

I tried playing other classes, but the only one that seems to interest me so far has been the Sith Inquisitor. If I play to the endgame and there's still no word on this, I'm unsubbing seeing as I only play for the story and to interact with my companions.

I don't really care what the answer is at this point, any answer would be sufficient. I hate to seem paranoid and cynical, but it just sort of feels like they're having us along for the ride, making us nervous as to not unsub prematurely so we can pay until they see fit to give us some kind of word on things.

One of the problems with mixing game features with social issues is this, what if I wanted the addition of responding violently to a specific type gender flirt from an NPC? That is certainly realistic and might actually add to the story, especially if an NPC is programmed to respond that way, but would it be acceptable to those that are espousing freedom of choice? Such violence is distasteful, but the poignancy and learning experience from a story perspective certainly exists.

I must say that some of the Darkside choices are distasteful, but a response of inflicting violence for a pass is really beyond the pale. I am all for living out your fantasies of Galactic Domination or what have you but to turn a flirt into an excuse for violence hits a little too close to home for someone living in Matthew Sheppard's hometown.

The heart of the matter seems to be that anti-toggle/selection folks are upset because they feel that having a method to select orientation will mainly be used to filter SGR options, that it's trying to pretend homosexuality doesn't exist. The pro-toggle/selection crowd wants some kind of method by which they can customize their prompts, for various reasons that run the gamut (some are uncomfortable with the idea of being hit on by same-sex NPCs, some just don't plan on utilizing the SGR options and would rather not be prompted for it).

I don't think it's okay to throw around words like "bigoted" just because a person doesn't want to explore SGR content. Everyone's entitled to their own sexual preferences, and those often extend to the character they're playing. But often it seems like some users aren't just advocating for the SGR content they want, but want it implemented in a way that maximizes exposure, even at the cost of making some players uncomfortable. They can say "Well, too bad, that's their problem", but in reality an MMO is about making the game enjoyable for the entire player base. And if that means letting people choose which options they're shown, then so be it. How one player chooses to customize his gameplay experience doesn't affect me, you, or the next guy.

Everyone's entitled to their own sexual preferences, and those often extend to the character they're playing. But often it seems like some users aren't just advocating for the SGR content they want, but want it implemented in a way that maximizes exposure, even at the cost of making some players uncomfortable.

Everyone pushing for same gender content in this thread and elsewhere wants it implemented just the same as opposite gender, no more and no less(in terms of exposure or whatever else you want).

The heart of the matter seems to be that anti-toggle/selection folks are upset because they feel that having a method to select orientation will mainly be used to filter SGR options, that it's trying to pretend homosexuality doesn't exist. The pro-toggle/selection crowd wants some kind of method by which they can customize their prompts, for various reasons that run the gamut (some are uncomfortable with the idea of being hit on by same-sex NPCs, some just don't plan on utilizing the SGR options and would rather not be prompted for it).

 

I don't think it's okay to throw around words like "bigoted" just because a person doesn't want to explore SGR content. Everyone's entitled to their own sexual preferences, and those often extend to the character they're playing. But often it seems like some users aren't just advocating for the SGR content they want, but want it implemented in a way that maximizes exposure, even at the cost of making some players uncomfortable. They can say "Well, too bad, that's their problem", but in reality an MMO is about making the game enjoyable for the entire player base. And if that means letting people choose which options they're shown, then so be it. How one player chooses to customize his gameplay experience doesn't affect me, you, or the next guy.

The biggest problem for the Pro argument is that first of all, if SG content gets a toggle, why not the more extreme violent scenes? why not black lightsabers? why not so many other things that some people may find offensive/hurts immersion/etc...

Second of all, Stephen Reid's final statement on the matter made it very clear that in no way will anyone be tricked into SGRAs, the way he worded the whole thing sounded very much like they have zero intentions for such a thing to be done.

Who wants to start a pool as to when this thread will be closed and the 4th version started? Maybe someone with better oddsmaking facilities can put a weight for before or after tomorrow's Q&A Blog.

well they close when they get to 1000 posts I think, and mine should be ~878/879, so probably some time tomorrow or early Saturday, though really the posting hasn't been too consistent lately...

The biggest problem for the Pro argument is that first of all, if SG content gets a toggle, why not the more extreme violent scenes? why not black lightsabers? why not so many other things that some people may find offensive/hurts immersion/etc...

 

Second of all, Stephen Reid's final statement on the matter made it very clear that in no way will anyone be tricked into SGRAs, the way he worded the whole thing sounded very much like they have zero intentions for such a thing to be done.

It depends on who you ask. For myself, it's not a matter of finding SGR offensive, I'm just not into ladies. I'd rather be able to skip the girl prompts by clicking once than to just not use it every time it comes up. In that respect, I think it's like making any other character setting (race, gender, appearance) that we should be able to customize, since sexuality is less fluid than morality or personality. And it still lets those who want to experience all of the prompts do so. It seems like the best compromise, to be honest.

It depends on who you ask. For myself, it's not a matter of finding SGR offensive, I'm just not into ladies. I'd rather be able to skip the girl prompts by clicking once than to just not use it every time it comes up. In that respect, I think it's like making any other character setting (race, gender, appearance) that we should be able to customize, since sexuality is less fluid than morality or personality. And it still lets those who want to experience all of the prompts do so. It seems like the best compromise, to be honest.

Why have those that are not interested in opposite gender content not had that option? Why is it that this topic only comes up and gets support when the idea of same gender relationships is put on the table?

I'm guessing if they add characters they will only try to flirt with you at most twice, if at all, it's not like you will be bombarded with thousands of prompts(I get very few as my bounty hunter, can't say much about any other classes right now though).

Also, not meaning to sound rude, but have you read through the last ~3-4 pages in which the lack of fluidity that you bring up is discussed at length?

I have to wonder what it is that make people think a compromise of any kind is needed.

Romance is part of the game. No part of the storyline based aspects of the game is opt-out, the storylines have many branches some of which you will never see, but it all boils down to choice.

Now if romance was to be part of the game, it makes no sane sense in 2012 to put out an interactive medium with a "Gays need not apply" sign in the window. But that is the situation that we have, one that we have been assured will be remedied "post launch".

I have oft seen the argument of how SGRAs are only wanted by a "small minority" but they never seem to see that those in favor of the "no gays filter" is even smaller...

But often it seems like some users aren't just advocating for the SGR content they want, but want it implemented in a way that maximizes exposure, even at the cost of making some players uncomfortable. They can say "Well, too bad, that's their problem", but in reality an MMO is about making the game enjoyable for the entire player base. And if that means letting people choose which options they're shown, then so be it. How one player chooses to customize his gameplay experience doesn't affect me, you, or the next guy.

I don't think this is entirely accurate. There have already been statements from BioWare indicating that the homosexual romance options aren't something you're probably ever going to see without making a conscious effort to look for them. For those who want to see them, there are will be relatively clear dialogue paths one can take to get there, but if you don't want to see it and don't go specifically looking for it then it's likely you'll never see it at all. It's not going to be something you're forced into experiencing or something you'll likely be able to stumble upon by accident like some sort of gay trap door.

To add a toggle that will turn off content you're unlikely to experience without actively working towards it seems like an unnecessary step that will only serve to alienate a portion of the player base by suggesting that homosexual content is more offensive than heterosexual content.

It depends on who you ask. For myself, it's not a matter of finding SGR offensive, I'm just not into ladies. I'd rather be able to skip the girl prompts by clicking once than to just not use it every time it comes up. In that respect, I think it's like making any other character setting (race, gender, appearance) that we should be able to customize, since sexuality is less fluid than morality or personality. And it still lets those who want to experience all of the prompts do so. It seems like the best compromise, to be honest.

Whether or not there should be a toggle wasn't my point, I stated why I think there won't be, and the second part I didn't really word well, Reid's words made it sound very specifically that they had no intentions of any toggle regarding romancing/flirting being implemented.

To add a toggle that will turn off content you're unlikely to experience without actively working towards it seems like an unnecessary step that will only serve to alienate a portion of the player base by suggesting that homosexual content is more offensive than heterosexual content.

We don't want to offend people; after all, they come here for entertainment, to have fun, not to have to be reminded that there are gay people out there. And the option to flirt with someone of the same gender as your character? Well, that's just not something they want to have to see; not accomodating that desire by hiding away the gays for those who want such a thing would be close-minded bigotry, forcing our lifestyle choices on them.

Not to mention that it's about being able to roleplay their characters as they want; having gay flirt options right there will directly impact upon their ability to play the sorts of characters they want to, though I'm afraid we've been left to guess at how this can be the case, so far.

If there is a sparklecat fan club, where do I sign up? If there isn't one which forum do we start one in?

Come to think of it, where are the Bantha smilies?

It depends on who you ask. For myself, it's not a matter of finding SGR offensive, I'm just not into ladies. I'd rather be able to skip the girl prompts by clicking once than to just not use it every time it comes up. In that respect, I think it's like making any other character setting (race, gender, appearance) that we should be able to customize, since sexuality is less fluid than morality or personality. And it still lets those who want to experience all of the prompts do so. It seems like the best compromise, to be honest.

At any given time there are always two conversation choices you don't pick. Perhaps that should be streamlined, too - a little personality quiz at the beginning and presto, you don't have to click anything anymore, just let the game play itself.

As for personality, morality and sexuality - what makes you think one is any more flexible or fluid than the other? Personality is actually one of the most stable features of the human mind. Self-defined sexuality can change so much based on life experience and growth. Neither are really comparable. Some people have the most rigid moral principles and attitudes you can imagine and they will not stray from their position even in the face of facts or overwhelming opposition.

The toggle is mechanically unnecessary, but technically challenging to implement, if it should be done well. What you are really asking is not just not to see flirt prompts, a consideration beyond what people who want SGRAs have right now, what you are asking is that the implementation be further delayed so a toggle can be built. This isn't a compromise - we have already been made to compromise by waiting for months, and who knows how much longer - this is asking for special treatment.