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How many are giving up on Shadow tanks?


Leafy_Bug

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Did you verify that it works during the actual fight? Because, same as Mastrikal, deflection didn't seem to decrease damage taken at all. I went to help another group with my scoundrel today, and dodge had no visible effect either. Our guardian tank also says blade turning isn't working.

 

What does work extremely well is riot gas. Whenever it's applied, grenades hit for almost nothing.

 

Riot Gas is an accuracy debuff, so it's effectively doing the same thing as Deflection/Dodge.

 

I honestly have no idea why Dodge wouldn't work. I have verified in combat logs that it *is* a weapon attack and it *can* be parried, which means that Dodge/Deflection/Blade Turning comes into play. I would assume that the inefficacy of these abilities is either a bug or some high-accuracy mechanic that isn't visible in the script files.

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I would assume that the inefficacy of these abilities is either a bug or some high-accuracy mechanic that isn't visible in the script files.

 

If that were true, then Riot Gas wouldn't do anything because it's a 30% acc debuff. If the accuracy were high enough to ignore Deflection, then it would ignore Riot Gas even more.

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If that were true, then Riot Gas wouldn't do anything because it's a 30% acc debuff. If the accuracy were high enough to ignore Deflection, then it would ignore Riot Gas even more.

 

That's what I would think as well. That leaves bug. Or perhaps ham-fisted mechanic, not sure. Lightning Field ignores Guarded by the Force, so it's not entirely without precedent.

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Riot Gas is an accuracy debuff, so it's effectively doing the same thing as Deflection/Dodge.

 

I honestly have no idea why Dodge wouldn't work. I have verified in combat logs that it *is* a weapon attack and it *can* be parried, which means that Dodge/Deflection/Blade Turning comes into play. I would assume that the inefficacy of these abilities is either a bug or some high-accuracy mechanic that isn't visible in the script files.

 

Could you ask them to upload the logs?

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That's what I would think as well. That leaves bug. Or perhaps ham-fisted mechanic, not sure. Lightning Field ignores Guarded by the Force, so it's not entirely without precedent.

 

Does it amuse anyone else that no mechanics seem to ignore Guardian abilities?

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Deflection works for sure, I don't have the log but my co-tank used it and dodged it completely. Still even with deflection there should be some chance of it hitting but more often than not he dodges it.

Even me on my powertech without using any kind of defense increasing of acc decrease I dodge a lot

http://www.torparse.com/a/345104

this is a parse on my pt

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Does it amuse anyone else that no mechanics seem to ignore Guardian abilities?

 

yes i was thinking if there is one mechanic in S&V (just one) that punishes Guardians... like a huge Force/tech hit since (afaik) they have the lowest mitigation against that (has to be AOE though), or...

how about a Boss that forces you to stay out of melee range idk how can you make live harder on explicitly a guardian without screwing one of the other two just as hard?

Edited by DarthSpekulatius
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yes i was thinking if there is one mechanic in S&V (just one) that punishes Guardians... like a huge Force/tech hit since (afaik) they have the lowest mitigation against that (has to be AOE though), or...

how about a Boss that forces you to stay out of melee range idk how can you make live harder on explicitly a guardian without screwing one of the other two just as hard?

 

Yeah, the closest thing I can think is sunder since they would pretty much have to stay away all the time and would not be able to do anything because they would never be in range.

But then they can just stop every saber reflect cd, do more dmg than any other tanks would do with semi-ranged attacks and not feel a thing, and you could even leave sunder as the last one and just reflect the end like a boss, even during enrage

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I'm quite sure (although not 100% as I can't currently check my logs) that Saber Ward does nothing against the lightning phase of NiM Dread Guards.

 

Saber Ward does, actually, at least for a Sentinel. Saber Ward and Rebuke are the only two Sentinel CDs that work on that mechanic. Guarded and Camo are ignored.

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I've given up. Thrown in the towel as a Shadow main tank, about a month-and-a-half after 2.0 hit. I may still OT, but that depends on the people I raid with and the op I'm raiding. Mostly, I've retired my Shadow to the insanity of PvP and grinding dailies. Slowly gearing it for DPS.

 

Instead though I've started to really get into my sage heals, operative heals, and PT tank, and - to a lesser degree - my guardian tank (though I find its play style a bit boring-ish). Definitely though, my imp toons have really started to shine. My operative looks cool, but my PT looks even better (it sort of looks like Samus from Metroid). Since I have like all the Aratechs, they have a matching color speeder for their outfits :)

 

Anyways, Shadow tanks are done. BW is likely never going to fix them. Too bad too, I really enjoyed their play style. It was fun while it lasted.

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Saber Ward and Rebuke are the only two Sentinel CDs that work on that mechanic. Guarded and Camo are ignored.

 

This is one of the things that I find really curious about the scenario. Rebuke is straight up additive DR so it makes sense that it would work on Lightning Field. However, Guarded by the Force and Force Camouflage both apply multiplicative damage reduction just like Saber Ward (it applies a 25% multiplicative F/T damage reduction on top of the 50% Defense chance). The only difference is that GbtF and Force Camo are both univeral damage reduction whereas Saber Ward is *specific* damage reduction.

 

Can any Guardian state whether Warding Call works on Lightning Field since that's global multiplicative damage reduction, just on a smaller scale than GbtF and FC? If it *does* ignore it (which I doubt), that's essentially saying that Lightning Field ignores all global multiplicative damage reduction. If it doesn't, the only thing I can think of is that Lightning Field was coded to specifically *ignore* that abilities (which I'm not even sure they can do).

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Can any Guardian state whether Warding Call works on Lightning Field since that's global multiplicative damage reduction, just on a smaller scale than GbtF and FC? If it *does* ignore it (which I doubt), that's essentially saying that Lightning Field ignores all global multiplicative damage reduction. If it doesn't, the only thing I can think of is that Lightning Field was coded to specifically *ignore* that abilities (which I'm not even sure they can do).

 

Not sure if anyone would have tried Warding Call, since Saber Reflect works better. I suppose you could try it on hard mode, though Guarded works in HM just fine (it's only NiM where things are weird).

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Not sure if anyone would have tried Warding Call, since Saber Reflect works better.

 

Lightning Field is an AoE innit (I'm pretty sure it is, but, then again, I've never had to deal with any mechanics that gave me an explicit "yes or no" as to whether it was)? So shouldn't Saber Reflect have no effect at all on it?

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Lightning Field is an AoE innit (I'm pretty sure it is, but, then again, I've never had to deal with any mechanics that gave me an explicit "yes or no" as to whether it was)? So shouldn't Saber Reflect have no effect at all on it?

 

The splash damage from others is AoE. I don't know if the main attack is. I know that the Diversion talent in Gunnery doesn't work on the final hit from Lightning Field, which hints that it might be AoE even to the main target. Honestly, I haven't done that fight in Nightmare Mode with a guardian, so I don't have any first-hand experience.

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Riot Gas is an accuracy debuff, so it's effectively doing the same thing as Deflection/Dodge.

 

I honestly have no idea why Dodge wouldn't work. I have verified in combat logs that it *is* a weapon attack and it *can* be parried, which means that Dodge/Deflection/Blade Turning comes into play. I would assume that the inefficacy of these abilities is either a bug or some high-accuracy mechanic that isn't visible in the script files.

 

I studied the crap out of this with several tanks and compared logs. The attacks can MISS, but cannot be DEFENDED. It CAN be shielded.

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I studied the crap out of this with several tanks and compared logs. The attacks can MISS, but cannot be DEFENDED. It CAN be shielded.

 

That would be a very interesting change in the combat math. When last we left our heroes, "miss" and "deflect" were two different words for the exact same thing.

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Warding Call/Invincible does work against NiM Lightning field, but, like I said before, I don't believe Saber Ward does. I also noticed some irregularities between which abilities would and wouldn't work against the final big hit of lightning field and the smaller pulses before it.
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That would be a very interesting change in the combat math. When last we left our heroes, "miss" and "deflect" were two different words for the exact same thing.

 

Here's over 20 pulls where I take a huge grenade, I pop deflection until I figure out it doesn't do anything. Notice how I have 68-75% dodge (deflection +~18% base dodge and sometimes a relic popped), plus a 5% acc debuff on the boss, and am getting hit at statistically improbable rates, but not every time.

 

EDIT: Including the link usually helps.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/336627

 

EDIT 2: Quick math shows that if the attack COULD be dodged, not dodging any parts of it has less than a 4% chance of occurring, and it happens more than once in less than 30 pulls.

Edited by vVvCheese
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Here's over 20 pulls where I take a huge grenade, I pop deflection until I figure out it doesn't do anything. Notice how I have 68-75% dodge (deflection +~18% base dodge and sometimes a relic popped), plus a 5% acc debuff on the boss, and am getting hit at statistically improbable rates, but not every time.

 

EDIT: Including the link usually helps.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/336627

 

EDIT 2: Quick math shows that if the attack COULD be dodged, not dodging any parts of it has less than a 4% chance of occurring, and it happens more than once in less than 30 pulls.

 

 

I thank you again for your constant effort and posts. This is valuable information and I do believe someone in the shadow tank threads said something of the sort where the devs will say : 'we found a bug where bosses hit shadows at an erroneous rate, we corrected that, be happy '. Can you imagine if this was the case? :D

Edited by Leafy_Bug
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I thank you again for your constant effort and posts. This is valuable information and I do believe someone in the shadow tank threads said something of the sort where the devs will say : 'we found a bug where bosses hit shadows at an erroneous rate, we corrected that, be happy '. Can you imagine if this was the case? :D

 

The same is true for all the tanks on huge grenade at least. Their defense chance is not being applied.

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Here's over 20 pulls where I take a huge grenade, I pop deflection until I figure out it doesn't do anything. Notice how I have 68-75% dodge (deflection +~18% base dodge and sometimes a relic popped), plus a 5% acc debuff on the boss, and am getting hit at statistically improbable rates, but not every time.

 

EDIT: Including the link usually helps.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/336627

 

EDIT 2: Quick math shows that if the attack COULD be dodged, not dodging any parts of it has less than a 4% chance of occurring, and it happens more than once in less than 30 pulls.

 

Looking at about 180 huge grenade attacks from your parses i see a 87% hit chance when you use deflection and a 83% Chance that huge grenade hits when you don't use deflection (so deflection or any other defense rating buff is useless).

The devs stated that huge grenade is now weapon dmg, therefore huge grenade must have a very high accuracy (over 200% atleast), as additional melee/range defense is useless and the attack can be shielded, but also has to have a constant miss rate (~15%), as about 15% of all huge grenade stacks miss (probably the debuff you get from huge grenade has sth. do to with that).

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