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07.27.2012 , 09:02 PM | #524
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
You touch on this point of my again later on, so I'll just briefly comment here. One could write a story that has no attachment to reality at all, but no one would read it... Or if they did, they might find it very difficult to comprehend.
Aaaaaaand I never, at any stage, said it should have no connection to reality. I'm saying that we can't assume things are absolutely true in the Star Wars universe simply because they happen to be apparent in our world. I'm primarily sick of people saying 'there's X% of gay people in our world so there may only be X% in Star Wars - or less'. It doesn't hold water on any level.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Here's an example - If a bisexual woman is involved with a man, she's still attracted to other women. However, a straight woman (also involved with a man) wouldn't be attracted to other women, and might behave quite differently around a woman who flirts with her than the bisexual - even if both are monogamous (because people have different levels of what sort of behavior is acceptable in a relationship, of course).
But you can safely assume that the individual you're talking about will react in a similar way if someone they aren't interested in flirts with them - whether they're disinterested because of sexual preference or personality, or hair colour or pre-existing relationships, or whatever. That's not, behaviourally speaking, such a stretch.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
The fact of their sexual orientation will make them react differently in the same set of circumstances.
I would like to agree and disagree. Because, you know, I can't do anything easy-like. I agree that you can't write two people the same and have it seem realistic but I think this has as much or more to do with their overarching personality type than it does their sexuality. You have a gregarious, flirty and completely straight woman hit on by a woman and they might react quite well, though ultimately to let the person flirting with them down. You have an aggressive, antisocial, hostile straight woman and put her in the same situation and she's almost guaranteed to act differently.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
This is not the way it works all the time (ie Leliana's relationship with Marjolaine, comes up with both genders in the course of the romance - however it is left open to interpretation exactly what the relationship between them was).
I pretty much agree with this and would like to point out that Marjolaine is a non-romanceable NPC that doesn't cleave to stereotypes of sexuality. But then she seems to use sexuality as a weapon as willingly as a bow or blade.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Very true. Though I will say that the one or two exceptions both occur in EU (in a game and novels) and not in top level canon for the Star Wars universe. The main SW universe has been purely heterosexual (and very tamely so too).
If you claim accidental incestuous attraction to be tame, I guess. But I do see your point.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Reality would suggest that there are non-heterosexual people in the SW universe, and probably even creatures and beings who don't fall into our neat categories of sexual orientation and gender expression (aliens who have no sexes, for example, or who have more than two sexes) - but this reality thing... lets not bother with that, right? It is fiction, after all. (Sorry, I had to... I meant it as a light hearted tease, not to be insulting or anything - but you can't argue against reality on the one hand, then for it on the other. Besides which, an argument against reality could be used to justify no homosexuals just as much as it could be used to justify all bisexuals.)
<sighs> I wasn't arguing reality on that point, so your light-hearted jibe is misplaced. Whether those examples of LGBT content are top-level canon or not isn't relevant because we're talking about a game that's not top-level canon. I was arguing current, confirmed Star Wars canon material - not movie-canon, but still canon.

In any case you're taking the opinion that I was arguing against reality in its totality earlier, which I was not doing, at any point, ever. I'm pointing out that there are assumptions being made due to interaction with our world that may not be applicable, and saying they're anything but assumption is inaccurate.

That's my issue. Right there. People making assumptions and claiming them to be 100% undeniably accurate - which I have seen people do on both sides of the fence in this thread (though mainly, I have to say, on the 'no-SGRAs' side). They're not. Only Bioware: Austin can say what's 100% accurate in the canon of SWTOR - and because that's the canon we're all actually talking about, that's the canon we should be heeding. Not top-level canon, because SWTOR will never fully cleave to movie-canon.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
They need to be careful to write the characters in such a way as to be realistic and relatable, and that means taking into account whether or not their writing can overcome some people's inability to overlook the meta aspects of PCsexual LIs.
But they can't. That's the thing. They can't overcome that in everyone, and can't even begin to predict what will set some people off. Yes, it's the conundrum they face, but what some people find 'realistic' will vary from other people's opinions of 'realistic', and that's completely avoiding the 'relatable' angle (which is a lot stickier).

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Well I agree with them in principle. If you're going to write the same character as being attracted to PCs of both genders, then unless you're writing them from the ground up as bisexual, you have to effectively write two separate characters. Lesbian Kira won't behave the same way as straight Kira, there will be differences both subtle and obvious - they will have slightly different backgrounds, because they would have had different prior relationships (of both the romantic and non-romantic kind), therefore different experiences, and therefore they'd be different people (with some similarities, of course, but nurture does effect who we are as much as nature). If you don't do this, if you just change the pronouns in the romance? That's bad writing and bad character design.
That's an opinion. It's not even necessarily one I disagree with, but it is an opinion. Currently in the game Kira's reactions are only of minimal and temporary difference if you perform overtly Dark Side acts or do stuff she really dislikes and even then you can give her a couple of companion items and make it all better. How believable or relatable is that? If they go the mid-ground and give a few differing lines of dialogue for straight-Kira than for gay-Kira than for bi-Kira then they won't be short-changing SGRAs in comparison to LS-DS reactions in the slightest.

I agree it needs more than simple pronoun changes, but I don't agree that it needs to be from-scratch character building, particularly because people often find their personality types colour their sexuality (sometimes heavily) in terms of desirable/undesirable encounters.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Most of them react rather defensively when you tell them no too, no matter how polite you are about it.
Nobody likes rejection, I guess.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Of course not. I'd rather see a more concentrated number of bisexuals and characters with individual sexual orientations than an entire cast of PCsexuals, though.
Me too. I'd prefer there were dozens of potential companions, particularly if it wasn't a given that you could get them all (or, even better, occasionally were forced to choose). An unpopular opinion, maybe, but I'd love that additional interaction. 'Samara or Morinth? You choose.' Loved it.
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