Firstly, everyone is invited to post on this thread, but this thread is designed to be a place for pro-toggle players to safely voice their support for an option to disable same gender content in their own games without being bullied by the P.C. police. Anti-toggle players, please keep your objections restricted to an argument that relates solely to your SWTOR gaming experience. For instance, if you object to the toggle, you need to explain how your objection can be valid from a game-only perspective. This is a thread suggesting the need for a toggle and describing the fair ways it can be implemented.

 

Quoting the mods: "As a special request to everyone, as this is a sensitive topic, please review the Rules of Conduct before posting in the other threads. Please remember that when voicing your opinions, never be rude or insulting to other community members, derogatory towards any groups, keep religion and politics out of posts and please be respectful of one another!"

 

Suggestion as follows:

 

Solution:

 

1. Toggle is the best idea out of the forum yet but needs to be taken a step further to avoid the very ethical problems some players have mentioned.

 

2. This is a question about game content desired by some of the players - we don't need to get to the hairier question of what the default position of the toggle should be.

 

3. Rather than a clickable toggle that actively switches off or on game content, more sensible is to circumvent ALL ethical "default" questions by initiating the content in a different way.

 

4a. Optimally, for the happiness of everyone, imagine the following: you are a) a new player installing the game for the first time or b) a current player updating this patch;

 

4b. Upon installation you are discreetly prompted "Would you like to view options for same gender [Flirt] content?" (Yes or No);

 

4c. If you clicked "no", that's it; patch finished, resume your game.

 

4d. If you clicked "yes", you are brought to the menu for same sex content options, choosing whom and which you prefer, the new content is installed and not only will you be able to enjoy same sex flirts but you will not have to be bothered by hetero flirt options either ---- so that is better than just putting both choices up, even for those on whose behalf the content is being installed.

 

4e. Problem solved - everybody gets the content they want - ALL ethical issues avoided - immersion NOT affected, in fact perhaps even enhanced.

 

4f. The only default toggle would be "Flirts: On/Off".

 

**************************************************************************

 

As you can see this is a solution where everybody gets what they want - the only thing missing is the out-of-game desire to thrust unwanted content upon other paying players who have every bit as much right to enjoy their game as those who are against the toggle. People who are in favor of a toggle are not trying to infringe on what people who want this content can enjoy in their games, however people who are against the toggle have yet to make an argument relating strictly to the game that describes how what other people choose not to see affects the anti-toggle players game.

 

Addressing technical complications: Bisexual is included under "Same Sex Options" prompt. Clicking "No" to "Would you like to view options for same sex content?" bypasses everything, however clicking "Yes" opens a whole sub menu; at this menu are the options to identify your own profile gay/lesbian/bi/straight, OR an option to specifically click which character types you choose to flirt with, OR an option to have all the choices posted up as you go so you can change your mind every step of the way.

 

In short, we call for a pre-toggle option, a prompt that immediately appears from the launcher when you install the patch that says, "Would you like to view same sex content options?" - click no, and those conversation files/extra companions are not installed, click yes and they are. They have to record all this content either way, the video, the audio, write the dialogue. They're creating it for a select crowd, it should be available to the crowd that selects it. The files are just for the people that want them; story wise if the fate of the galaxy depends on who bangs who they have bigger problems to worry about than all types of flirts.

 

**************************************************************************

 

As a precondition of voicing objection to the toggle, you need to (as I have) keep in mind the forum rules and BW policy guidelines requiring all discussion begin and end in such a way that relates strictly to the game, and that gaming experience.

 

For pro-toggle players, I repeat: Players need to speak up now and let Bioware know that a fair, simple toggle is all we ask for to prevent the game from being rendered, to many of us, unplayable via gamebreak.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Comfterbilly

Foundational Questions:

 

Q1. Can they give LGBT players all the options they want in their game without affecting other people who don't want it? Yes - easily.

 

Q2a. If anti-toggle people can have all the content they want, on what basis can they further object to other people being able to turn that content off - is this basis restricted solely to the question of gaming? No.

 

Q2b. Can this objection be on a basis that relates only to the game; has nothing to do with anything except the game, if the content they want is being delivered unabridged only to the people who want it? No.

 

Q2c. Does Bioware's policy state that all objections to this discussion be related solely to the context of your experience in the game? Yes.

 

Q3. IF LGBT characters have the content that they want, can utilize it fully to their heart's content, how does the fact that other players do not have to see it (via toggle) obstruct their game immersion experience?

 

A: It does not. Nobody's trying to restrict LGBT choices but anti-toggle players are trying to restrict the choices of others. If they have the content they want and just have a problem with the toggle, that toggle relates solely to the experience of other players, i.e., anti-toggle players are not content to enjoy the content on their own: their problem is with what other people want to do in their own games, which is no one else's business.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Comfterbilly

Further note: pro-toggle players in general are less likely to participate in the forums and less likely to want to argue, even though their gaming experience will be affected in a way they disagree with. Please be civil to those who post and practice the same standard of decency that all of us should expect. To the pro-toggle players: if you don't quite know what to say or how to say it, don't worry! Just keep it simple and let people know you would prefer the toggle and leave it at that.

I am all for a toggle, but be warned, you are going to need a fame suit.

 

Many of anti-toggle folks think that any form of toggle is an affront to the LGBT community as a statement that they are a subject that is worthy of filtering.

If you can toggle same sex flirting off I should be able to turn off flirting with the opposite sex. Everyone is gay or no one is.

If you can toggle same sex flirting off I should be able to turn off flirting with the opposite sex.

 

I agree 100%.

I am all for a toggle, but be warned, you are going to need a fame suit.

 

Many of anti-toggle folks think that any form of toggle is an affront to the LGBT community as a statement that they are a subject that is worthy of filtering.

 

Thanks! For most pro-toggle players the issue is they don't want their game to be a statement at all. I want the toggle because like you said in another post, there is a lot of r/l political argument about the subject, an argument that without a toggle is a gamebreaker for people who don't want to deal with politics in the middle of a video game. Its not saying this side is right or that side is wrong, its saying I just want to play video games and leave this bickering to r/l.

Thanks! For most pro-toggle players the issue is they don't want their game to be a statement at all. I want the toggle because like you said in another post, there is a lot of r/l political argument about the subject, an argument that without a toggle is a gamebreaker for people who don't want to deal with politics in the middle of a video game. Its not saying this side is right or that side is wrong, its saying I just want to play video games and leave this bickering to r/l.

 

See, you're completely missing the point and this insane restriction that this can only be discussed from a technical or game experience standpoint despite the fact that this is a purely social problem. The fact is, if you want to remove the politics from this than ALL romance options have to be turned off.

See, you're completely missing the point and this insane restriction that this can only be discussed from a technical or game experience standpoint despite the fact that this is a purely social problem. The fact is, if you want to remove the politics from this than ALL romance options have to be turned off.

 

No they don't have to be turned off - that is the point of a toggle. People can have anything they want, and they don't have to have what they don't want. There is no game-only reason to prevent players from having the option via toggle, which is the most painless way to go. I play SWTOR to get away from social politics, not to pay for them.

Okay I've taken a few minutes to calm down and I think the problem is that you don't understand what you're suggesting. Having an option that turns off all hints and references to homosexuality is discrimination. I don't think that's where you were going when you made this thread but you need to appreciate that what you are suggesting is incredibly offensive.

 

Thank you for collecting your thoughts. No, having a toggle to turn off the flirts you don't want from computer generated characters is not discrimination, its immersion. Racheakt rightly pointed out there is plenty of r/l debate surrounding sexuality issues, I also observe that for many people this is a gamebreaker. I'm not contributing my money to endorse anything other than Star Wars, the game, . Thrusting these options on players without the refuge of a toggle is a blanket endorsement that will leave me no option to continue playing. The intolerant crowd is the anti-toggle side, who cannot abide the r/l personal preferences of other players that have no impact on anti-toggle players experience in the game.

 

You're not objecting to what you get through this content, you're objecting to what other people do or don't have to see in their experience in their own games.

 

I'm not suggesting that content is inappropriate - in fact I'm not making any kind of statement. This is a statement-free post in a statement-free zone. Pro-toggle players need to be heard so the game provider will understand that we are asking for the option of keeping politics out of the game via toggle, so we can keep playing - playing the game , that is.

 

What you need to understand is that your objection is r/l political, based on your r/l opinions, and that your complaint about what other people don't have to see is personal. Save the fighting for PVP, don't ask the company to hit us over the head with your opinions and still hope we continue subscribing.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Comfterbilly

Thank you for collecting your thoughts. No, having a toggle to turn off the flirts you don't want from computer generated characters is not discrimination, its immersion.

Actually, that's the opposite. Immersion would be if the NPCs would flirt with you based on your interactions with them, even if you hadn't flirted with them first. Which, as I may point out would actually be an extremely interesting mechanic and lead to unique roleplaying situations that expands on the universe and provides depth.

 

Demaio rightly pointed out there is plenty of r/l debate surrounding sexuality issues, I also observe that for many people this is a gamebreaker. I'm not contributing my money to endorse anything other than Star Wars, the game, .

Thrusting these options on players without the refuge of a toggle is a blanket endorsement that will leave me no option to continue playing.

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you here, but it seems like you're saying that if Bioware added homosexual flirt options into the game, without the option of turning them off, you would cancel your sub. That if Bioware added homosexuality to the game you would quit.

 

The intolerant crowd is the anti-toggle side, who cannot abide the r/l personal preferences of other players that have no impact on anti-toggle players experience in the game.

 

You're not objecting to what you get through this content, you're objecting to what other people do or don't have to see in their experience in their own games.

I'd like to remind you at this point that you're currently arguing in favor of people who are so totally opposed to homosexuality that the mere appearance of the option is totally unacceptable.

 

I'm not suggesting that content is inappropriate - in fact I'm not making any kind of statement.

Well, see, you actually have. Right up there, where you said you'd cancel your sub if gay romance options, and again I'd like to point out that these are simply options you want to hide, are put in. The fact is, nobody is forcing you to see any more than a little option that you're seeing anyway. The objection here, is that it's between two same sex characters.

I'm just going to throw this out there, if there was a toggle to remove all interactions with black NPCs/companions, do you think nobody would take offence and it would all be fine?

I'm just going to throw this out there, if there was a toggle to remove all interactions with black NPCs/companions, do you think nobody would take offence and it would all be fine?

 

Now you're saying race and sexuality are the same thing, they're not. Inappropriate as your statement is, its also exaggerated. The toggle is simply for people who want to be left alone about social politics because it is a gamebreaker that disrupts their immersion, thus decreases the value of their playing experience. People can be pro-toggle without being r/l intolerant, in fact time and again its the anti-toggle people who venture here with intolerance.

 

Wanting the toggle can be for very many reasons, mine being that I don't come here and spend good money just to be bombarded by the P.C. Police (I can get that for free). They can give us a toggle, sparing us the gamebreaking social politics and r/l drama.

 

When you intentionally pay for something like a game you are implicitly endorsing its content, something many people are not able to do without a toggle. We're just asking the game provider for the option to be left alone if they want our subscriptions.

Now you're saying race and sexuality are the same thing, they're not. Inappropriate as your statement is, its also exaggerated. The toggle is simply for people who want to be left alone about social politics because it is a gamebreaker that disrupts their immersion, thus decreases the value of their playing experience. People can be pro-toggle without being r/l intolerant, in fact time and again its the anti-toggle people who venture here with intolerance.

 

Wanting the toggle can be for very many reasons, mine being that I don't come here and spend good money just to be bombarded by the P.C. Police (I can get that for free). They can give us a toggle, sparing us the gamebreaking social politics and r/l drama.

 

When you intentionally pay for something like a game you are implicitly endorsing its content, something many people are not able to do without a toggle. We're just asking the game provider for the option to be left alone if they want our subscriptions.

 

In this instance it is the same thing, both examples allow discrimination for those who aren't tolerant of of a group of people. Racism and homophobia aren't all that different.

Edited February 12, 2012 by tomshe

I don't support a toggle at all. If you are offended by it, don't participate in it. Just like in the real world you shouldn't be able to hide something and pretend it doesn't exist because you don't believe in it. I don't believe in killing people but does that mean they should remove all the violence from the game? No, definitely not. If I played the game just for crafting, because I want to participate in the social aspect of the game, should I be able to choose "No Violence" when I install the game? You would call that rediculous, yet being a dedicated crafter might be what I want to do in the game. If you don't want to flirt with same gender npcs, don't click that option. Its would be directly akin to choosing on install that you only want to make lightside options so it should hide all darkside choices from you so you wont have to see them. Its utterly rediculous.

What about a toggle to hide dialog entries that discuss torture and murder? There's loads of objectionable content in SWTOR for those with weak stomachs. If a player isn't able to handle that level of responsibility in their choices, this is the wrong MMO.

 

I oppose the presence of a toggle because the toggle itself would become the statement. Most of the ideas I have seen have been about isolating one aspect from each other, as if players must make the choice in advance. I can understand why members of the LGBT community would want to define their characters in a specific way, but for most players, it's not something worth thinking about or deciding. Like the dark/light alignment, the choice isn't done in advance with a toggle, but during the conversation as a response to what is happening.

 

If Bioware were to implement a wide-scale array of same-gender flirts, players would simply become accustomed to seeing [Flirt] regardless of the gender of the NPC. They wouldn't be seeing "hide gay stuff" or "omg my char is gay", they just see the same thing they see everywhere else. There will be straight players may click the [Flirt] just to see what happens in the conversation; not because they're gay or their char is gay.

 

KOTOR & SWTOR players are already able to handle to concept of good & bad choices, where some choices are more appealing than others. Same-gender flirts would simply fall into that category. Some players will see the same-gender choices as good ones to take, some will see it as hilarious potential, and some will see them as bad choices never to be clicked. My Sith Lord is very dark. He loves killing and torturing, but he's not greedy. He doesn't do things for money, so I find the conversation options that focus on the monetary reward to be quite distasteful and out of character. Can I get an option to hide those too?

 

If you want to talk about gaming experience, how would not having a toggle make it game breaking? If every NPC in the game, regardless of race or gender was given a [Flirt] option such that you got used to seeing [Flirt] as a 4th option in every conversation, would it still be gamebreaking?

 

As someone who is not a member of the LGBT community, I would fine the presence of same-gender flirts a potential source of hilarity as my pure evil murdering sorcerer tries flirting with the stock-boy.

 

It's not like flirts are hidden and jump out and surprise you. They're marked with [Flirt].

 

In my honest opinion & prediction, as much as I'd like to see all this new content in new conversation options, I don't think Bioware will ever put the resources needed to achieve this. They'll give the LGBT community same-gender romances on companions and call it a day. And since it will be very isolated, they aren't going to put up a flashing sign that says "We have gay content" by adding a toggle to hide it. They'll just say "You're talking to a male character. If you don't want to flirt with them, don't click the button. There's your toggle".

If you don't want your guy to flirt with another dude....don't click the Flirt dialogue option.

 

That was so challenging that I think I need to go lay down.

Edited February 12, 2012 by DigiFluid

Now you're saying race and sexuality are the same thing, they're not.

 

Umm, it is EXACTLY the same situation. If you don't remember history, it use to be ok in America to descriminate against African Americans, not just that but it was encouraged! Furthermore before that it was perfectly acceptable to subjegate them and force them to do work with no compensation.

 

Now you are trying to descriminate against another group of people, it offends you so much that you want the option not to even see it in game. It is exactly relevent to the same situation, because if this game was created in the past, white folk would be objecting to seeing colored folk in their game.

What about a toggle to hide dialog entries that discuss torture and murder? There's loads of objectionable content in SWTOR for those with weak stomachs. If a player isn't able to handle that level of responsibility in their choices, this is the wrong MMO.

 

I have a friend that has that exact problem. He was anxiously awaiting this game, but the choices overwhelmed him. He wasn't able to play because he couldn't accept the responsibility of his choices, it conflicted with him deeply and he had to quit the game. He wishes he could play with a direct storyline, so he wouldn't have to make any choices, therefore it would be like any other straight forward game instead of it being his choices, but that isn't the case. Should they toggle whether dialog choices should be on and off to to compensate for people like him?

I have a friend that has that exact problem. He was anxiously awaiting this game, but the choices overwhelmed him. He wasn't able to play because he couldn't accept the responsibility of his choices, it conflicted with him deeply and he had to quit the game. He wishes he could play with a direct storyline, so he wouldn't have to make any choices, therefore it would be like any other straight forward game instead of it being his choices, but that isn't the case. Should they toggle whether dialog choices should be on and off to to compensate for people like him?

 

No.

 

He should just go back to Call of Duty: World at Modern Warfare Ops 2397625194 and enjoy the endless scripted sequences that are occasionally punctuated by 5 minutes of gameplay hallmarked by aimbot AI

No.

 

He should just go back to Call of Duty: World at Modern Warfare Ops 2397625194 and enjoy the endless scripted sequences that are occasionally punctuated by 5 minutes of gameplay hallmarked by aimbot AI

 

Exactly! If you don't like an option, don't choose it. Noone is forcing people to click on same gender flirt options, they just want the option to be available for clicking. We don't want to hide anything from anyone. Its not about politics, its about life. Throughout history there has been same gender romances, but now since its a political topic, its the PC thing to do? No, its always been a part of life, just some people don't want to see it.

I dislike the idea of a toggle, but I would be for it as long as there was an option to toggle flirt options on and off in general (instead of making it so specific and targeting sexual orientations). Make it as simple and black and white as turning the language filter on or off.

 

If you start making it specific, there will be hurt feelings somewhere, and making toggles to satisfy everyone would end up being excessive (and would still hurt feelings, leading to more issues). It should be that you are comfortable with having flirt options in the game, or you aren't, period.

 

Bioware has it's name on this game, and they are known for having same-sex relationships in their games, so having it in SWTOR couldn't be that big of a surprise.

 

 

 

Side note that I've always wondered in MMOs...

How can someone can have a problem with a female flirting with a female or a male with a male, but be okay with slaughtering/murdering 500 humans and animals on each planet for credits and/or fame??

Exactly! If you don't like an option, don't choose it. Noone is forcing people to click on same gender flirt options, they just want the option to be available for clicking. We don't want to hide anything from anyone. Its not about politics, its about life. Throughout history there has been same gender romances, but now since its a political topic, its the PC thing to do? No, its always been a part of life, just some people don't want to see it.

 

If you choose a Sith Warrior, do they send you to Dantooine to complete your Jedi training? No? Because you're not a Jedi. As a Sith warrior, I don't want to go to Dantooine to complete my Jedi training, because I'm not a Jedi, get it? I don't even want prompts asking me if I want to go to Dantooine to complete my Jedi training, and this part is not a metaphor: because I despise the Republic.

 

If you guys can compare race and sexuality surely we can use faction as a parable. Toggle gives you more options, not less. Toggle is a game feature, not a r/l political "statement".

 

For people who go through life longing most of all for something - anything - to be offended about, giving other people the freedom to enjoy their own purchased game in their own way - a way that has nothing to do with you and your political views - will always be offensive, because in your mind there is nothing that is not offensive, so long as you get to wear it as an honor badge.

 

The toggle is for people who want to be left alone. Furthermore for a crowd so devoted to being offended at every possible thing, its ironic you don't understand how all companions' forced bisexuality, without a toggle, is very "offensive" itself. If the NPC's will bed with anybody under any circumstances so long as the player chooses, you're saying that fairness is defined by a complete lack of any core preferences. I don't care about any of that. Toggle is for people who don't want to play r/l politics in a game that they're paying for.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Comfterbilly

I dislike the idea of a toggle, but I would be for it as long as there was an option to toggle flirt options on and off in general (instead of making it so specific and targeting sexual orientations). Make it as simple and black and white as turning the language filter on or off.

 

If you start making it specific, there will be hurt feelings somewhere, and making toggles to satisfy everyone would end up being excessive (and would still hurt feelings, leading to more issues). It should be that you are comfortable with having flirt options in the game, or you aren't, period.

 

Bioware has it's name on this game, and they are known for having same-sex relationships in their games, so having it in SWTOR couldn't be that big of a surprise.

 

 

 

Side note that I've always wondered in MMOs...

How can someone can have a problem with a female flirting with a female or a male with a male, but be okay with slaughtering/murdering 500 humans and animals on each planet for credits and/or fame??

 

I almost completely agree. I would almost be completely satisfied with a simple "turn off all flirts" toggle, and in this case almost would be good enough for me. The funny thing is the idea of a pre-toggle preference menu is an idea I came up with on behalf of the people who want this content in their game. One would think it would be better, if you read the OP, for people to get exactly the content they want, then even LGBT wouldn't have to deal with straight-prompts. The fact that people are more concerned that everyone should have to deal with all prompts instead of everyone getting to choose what side-story flirt prompts make them happiest is troublesome because it shows that people are more concerned about what is going on in someone else's game, than what they get to enjoy in theirs.

For people who go through life longing most of all for something - anything - to be offended about, giving other people the freedom to enjoy their own purchased game in their own way - a way that has nothing to do with you and your political views - will always be offensive, because in your mind there is nothing that is not offensive, so long as you get to wear it as an honor badge.

 

I take your words, and I turn them back on you. Read what you wrote as though someone else said it to you.

 

You couldn't have been more ironic if you tried.