The way real money leaks into gearing, crafting, and progression simply isn't up for dispute.

But you don’t need money to win in this game. The only competitive part of the game is ranked pvp and even those guys know you don’t need the new augments to win.

It’s your definition of pay to win that’s incorrect. Also, I’m a many times billionaire in this game. I’ve never once used or been enticed to us a credit buying service and I don’t buy CM stuff to flip on the GTN for fast credits. All of my credits are from game play and crafting. I’ve never been held back playing pvp or content I want to play (except in 5.0, which was eventually fixed).

But you don’t need money to win in this game. The only competitive part of the game is ranked pvp and even those guys know you don’t need the new augments to win.

 

It’s your definition of pay to win that’s incorrect. Also, I’m a many times billionaire in this game. I’ve never once used or been enticed to us a credit buying service and I don’t buy CM stuff to flip on the GTN for fast credits. All of my credits are from game play and crafting. I’ve never been held back playing pvp or content I want to play (except in 5.0, which was eventually fixed).

I agree, the monetization's tuning isn't particularly aggressive.

That said, there are a couple important things to get on the table: First, paying to win isn't limited to competitive PvP; SW Angry Birds is an aggressively monetized, single player, pay-to-win game. Want the Millenium Falcon to do a flyby? Need more birds? Pay up.

In SWTOR, the monetization of every core system, on top of a subscription, exists. Soft tuning doesn't erase this as a moral transgression, or as a future risk, when tuning is adjusted.

The soft tuning has a purpose: We're being groomed into acceptance of the systems themselves. And that's a problem worth speaking out about.

Any microtransaction that isn't cosmetic-only is pay-to-win.

Any microtransaction that isn't cosmetic-only is pay-to-win.

Nonsense. By that definition, the Cartel Market +XP boosters that let me level up X amount in four hours instead of five hours is pay-to-win, and I don't think you'll find many people who agree with that assessment. (I'd also point out that you've previously said that the *cosmetic* stuff is P2W because I can sell it for credits to buy the new augments. Which is it? P2W or not?)

Nonsense. By that definition, the Cartel Market +XP boosters that let me level up X amount in four hours instead of five hours is pay-to-win, and I don't think you'll find many people who agree with that assessment. (I'd also point out that you've previously said that the *cosmetic* stuff is P2W because I can sell it for credits to buy the new augments. Which is it? P2W or not?)

You're just going to confuse the poor person, he won't know what he's fighting for anymore.....Not to mention he's brought this whole topic of thread, as usual.

And getting it back on topic, as people have said, it's the rotation of stuff, it was on the CM, it's gone, but it will be back. Or it got lost after it was on sale the last time (as sometimes seems to happen) and someone will eventually fix it, so it can come back then.

Nonsense. By that definition, the Cartel Market +XP boosters that let me level up X amount in four hours instead of five hours is pay-to-win, and I don't think you'll find many people who agree with that assessment. (I'd also point out that you've previously said that the *cosmetic* stuff is P2W because I can sell it for credits to buy the new augments. Which is it? P2W or not?)

Paid boosts are absolutely a pay-to-win mechanic. The degree of advantage provided is a separate discussion from whether the mechanic itself exists. It does, and in its fundamental principles, is problematic.

As for cosmetics: A cash 'cosmetic' that's launderable into other benefits isn't cosmetic-only.

At the end of the day, the OP's problem is EA's toxic monetization. The gambling wall, in this instance.

Not going to get into the rest of the folderal about P2W, but no, at the end of the day the OP's problem is that a dye that was on the Cartel Market has been missing from the Cartel Market for months. The reason it has not been on the CM is due simply to the fact that is was the daily flash sale item a few months ago and whenever a dye is the daily flash sale item it disappears from the market when the sale ends. This has happened consistently multiple times before. Usually it does not take this long for them to re-add the dye. It was not specifically removed from the Market. It fell off of the Market when the flash sale ended.

Not going to get into the rest of the folderal about P2W, but no, at the end of the day the OP's problem is that a dye that was on the Cartel Market has been missing from the Cartel Market for months. The reason it has not been on the CM is due simply to the fact that is was the daily flash sale item a few months ago and whenever a dye is the daily flash sale item it disappears from the market when the sale ends. This has happened consistently multiple times before. Usually it does not take this long for them to re-add the dye. It was not specifically removed from the Market. It fell off of the Market when the flash sale ended.

The dye has still disappeared behind the gambling wall.

Now the photo proof.

Here is the White and Black Dye listed as the Flash Sale item:

https://i.imgur.com/oDOdUPj.png?1

Here is the CM front page after the reset (which occurs at 6:00 MST for me). The new Flash Sale item is Clandestine Officer Armour set:

https://i.imgur.com/EhO0ign.png?1

And now the White and Black Dye is gone from the Cartel Market:

https://i.imgur.com/NyusONL.png?1

This happens every time a dye is the Flash Sale item.

This happens every time a dye is the Flash Sale item.

Not only dyes, other items as well and it's nothing new. There are staple items that are always available for direct purchase (Character rename, etc.) and items that rotate in and out. They had the Imperator's Command Hoverchair as a Flash Sale a few weeks ago and its gone from the Cartel Market since then. A few months before that the Golden Random Mount item was the Flash Sale and it rotated out for several months before it came back.

It's a simple economic ploy to increase demand, because players will not only want to buy it for a reduced Cartel Coin price point, but will be pursuaded even more so due to the higher chance to sell it for good credits on the GTN.

Except that those items are purely cosmetic and not pay-to-win, unless you equate coloring your armor in stylish Black&White with winning (which would be quite a funny interpretation I must admit).

If I understand this "discussion" correctly the point is ...

Shut down the GTN (or at least the ability for folks to make multi-bagillions of credits) and you make the game fair to everyone. IMO it's the idea that making credits off of anything outside of "playing the game" is a waste and only contributes to the "pay-to-win" or making too many credits is unfair ... that sort of thing.

IMO this is just another way (sneaking in the back door) to gripe about the GTN. Frankly I'm surprised that crafting wasn't listed in the discussion as well.

[/shrugs]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As for dyes on the CM ... my ONLY complaint is that dyes purchased on the CM should be "moveable" from one character or piece of armor to another without destroying it! But that's up to the people who sell them.

Heck ... I'm so cheap that I rarely buy them (white on white / black on white / black on black .... etc ) regardless of WHERE they are (GTN or CM). THAT my friends is a choice that I make. That's not something to complain about .. it's MY CHOICE . And if I want to buy one of them ... then I WILL do so (just like everyone else).

Edit...

BTW... for OP: DT is correct. The colors in question are "cycled" from time to time.

Also: Phazonfreak : I agree with part of your assessment !! It's kind of funny in a way ... what some folks will fuss over !!

Not only dyes, other items as well and it's nothing new. There are staple items that are always available for direct purchase (Character rename, etc.) and items that rotate in and out. They had the Imperator's Command Hoverchair as a Flash Sale a few weeks ago and its gone from the Cartel Market since then. A few months before that the Golden Random Mount item was the Flash Sale and it rotated out for several months before it came back.

 

It's a simple economic ploy to increase demand, because players will not only want to buy it for a reduced Cartel Coin price point, but will be pursuaded even more so due to the higher chance to sell it for good credits on the GTN.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but no, those are two different things. I am fully aware that items on the CM are rotated in and out for the purpose of creating artificial scarcity. It is also entirely possible for the Flash Sale item to be an item that was not already for sale on the CM. A weapon or mount that has not been seen on the CM for months can be the Flash Sale item. It shows up for that one day and then returns to the aether from whence it came. That is not what this is about.

This is about items that were on the CM, get featured as the Flash Sale item, disappear after the Flash Sale ends, and only after it is brought to their attention does the item return to the CM. Yes, this has happened to other items, but it happens consistently to dyes. An armour set, weapon, mount, or decoration can be featured as the Flash Sale item without it disappearing from the CM once the Flash Sale ends, but whenever a dye is the Flash Sale item it disappears from the CM when the sale ends. This happens consistently whereas other types of items do not suffer from this issue.

This is not a case of an item simply being rotated out. This is a consistent, repeatable, and observable issue that affects dyes, as well as some other items. As soon as I saw that the White/Black dye was the featured Flash Sale item I knew that the next day it would be gone from the CM. I even made that prediction in my post yesterday.

Not only dyes, other items as well and it's nothing new. There are staple items that are always available for direct purchase (Character rename, etc.) and items that rotate in and out. They had the Imperator's Command Hoverchair as a Flash Sale a few weeks ago and its gone from the Cartel Market since then. A few months before that the Golden Random Mount item was the Flash Sale and it rotated out for several months before it came back.

 

It's a simple economic ploy to increase demand, because players will not only want to buy it for a reduced Cartel Coin price point, but will be pursuaded even more so due to the higher chance to sell it for good credits on the GTN.

Well .. IF were to actually buy stuff off of the CM (and it does happen on a VERY rare occasion).. I would wait until it's on sale ! I do that on 95% of everything I do in RL !! (with the possible exception of a few crank bait at BPS on HARD to get items.) Right now I'm waiting on a particular JMS Carbonlite (2.0) rod (7'4" ML) and matching reel to go sale. I wish these were on a "flash sale" !!!!!

I kind of like the idea of "flash" sales.

But then again .. I'm so tight that if BW were depending upon me to keep their lights on based on what I spend on the CM ... they'd been broke a LONG time ago !!

I understand the point you are trying to make, but no, those are two different things.

I wouldn't say that those are two different things, but that EA/BioWare simply utilizes this economic ploy for Dyes on a much more comprehensive level compared to other types of items. I think the reason for that is pretty straightforward in that Dyes have a tremendous turnover for an item that you can only use once and everyone "needs" all the time. They are pretty much the most sought-after item on the market. There is a reason why Dyes still function the way they do to this very day, even though other games *cough* Guild Wars 2 *cough* demonstrate a much more user-friendly and flexible version of the mechanic that is in stark contrast to what we have in this game.

Which is why they will never ever change this mechanic until the game shuts down.

I wouldn't say that those are two different things, but that EA/BioWare simply utilizes this economic ploy for Dyes on a much more comprehensive level compared to other types of items. I think the reason for that is pretty straightforward in that Dyes have a tremendous turnover for an item that you can only use once and everyone "needs" all the time. They are pretty much the most sought-after item on the market. There is a reason why Dyes still function the way they do to this very day, even though other games *cough* Guild Wars 2 *cough* demonstrate a much more user-friendly and flexible version of the mechanic that is in stark contrast to what we have in this game.

 

Which is why they will never ever change this mechanic until the game shuts down.

It is if the reason they are falling off is due to a bug and not due to an intention removal. My post in the bug forum received a reply.

Hi ceryxp,

 

This is not working as intended and not specific to dyes. At times, a flash sale item will not be listed immediately after the sale is over as some go through a cooling off period before they are restored to the CM.

And look, the two missing dyes have been restored to the Market.

https://i.imgur.com/KszQR9Q.png?1

It is if the reason they are falling off is due to a bug and not due to an intention removal. My post in the bug forum received a reply.

 

And look, the two missing dyes have been restored to the Market.

 

https://i.imgur.com/KszQR9Q.png?1

Ok, didn't see that post. You are correct then. Thanks for the link.