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need to post a official sticky about this or a post


hargrave

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Ilum is being deprecated in Game Update 1.2. The Open World PvP area on Ilum will still be present in 1.2, but rewards previously gained in Ilum will be available in Warzones and that's where we expect the bulk of PvP to take place for now.

 

As we said during the Guild Summit, the PvP team is 'going back to the drawing board' with Ilum. That means they want to rework it to be fun and engaging. We accept there are issues with the current design and want to ensure that what we end up with is enjoyable for PvP fans. We have no ETA on when a redesigned Ilum might be available, but when we do have more news, we'll share it.

 

The PvP team definitely monitors these Forums and would love to see constructive feedback on Open World PvP and how you feel it could be improved. They have their own ideas, of course, and they've read many of the posts here but more feedback is always welcome.

 

HOW TO FIX ILUM:

 

1. Remove Northern and Southern capture points. Ilum is too pointlessly huge.

2. Utilize all of those cool tunnels you have that lead to nowhere. Ilum's backstory seems pretty open ended in terms of the Jedi and Sith; have the tunnels spiral downward below the center of the map into a Jedi or Sith academy where players battle over an objective in a room(s) with lots of death traps (thinking Qui-Gonn, Obi-Wan and Maul's final battle in Episode 1). Lots of risk of falling, being pushed off, stasis doors (maybe), and stick the objective smack dab in the center.

3. Build on the Republic & Empire bases so they are just North and South base, not faction specific. Make the bases not so linear, but dynamic, with multiple entrances (possibly secret/hidden ones) and obviously remove the auto-kill turrets. Since the bases are no longer faction specific, camping bases won't be an issue. The objective for capping the bases should be an increased stream of valor, commendations, or whatever your end-game PvP incentive will be for 1.2 onward.

4. Throughout Ilum, build on those psuedo-structures you have lying around with no reason to currently be there. Players don't need an enormous incentive to start a fight; putting a usable object in there that grants valor on use or something. People will fight over them. Have them in multiple, scattered locations (and in buildings--we like having our fights in structures) so small skirmishes can occur, in addition to large scale pvp, which would ideally be going on underneath Central.

5. More bridges, more high rises, more reasons to Force Push or Overload or whatever.

 

That's my two cents. Hope BioWare considers this!

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It's interesting to see how this thread is divided into 2 categories:

 

1) Those who played Daoc and know how good open world pvp can be.

 

2) Those who seem to think pvp is what Warcraft gave them.

 

 

Easy to see why people are satisfied with grinding the same 3 warzones ad infinitum to gain gear to grind the same 3 warzones more effectively. Am I the only one who can see this? I feel like i'm going crazy sometimes. The same **** happened in Rift.

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The majority of people myself included up to the guild summit believe ilum and open world pvp is being thrown out the window permanently. Based on what i heard at the guild summit and seeing this http://www.theimperialnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ilum.jpg and people still thinking ilum/open world pvp is bieng phased out permanently you really need to make a sticky or at least make it known on here.

 

 

Im not sure if youve realized this or are not aware of this bieng peoples view? Either way gabe or someone needs to post and say what was said at the guild summit about ilum.

 

On a side note like i said i thought open world pvp/ilum was bieng phased out myself until the guild summit. Please let people know this isnt true in the pvp forum with a sticky or post thank you.

 

 

 

First of all, I think you should change your title to something that describes your topic.

 

Second, it is horrible to read with the run on sentences and errors. I'd go back and edit it. I can not understand these moderators forcing people to stick to one thread for a discussion, and choosing one that is written so poorly and not even properly titled.

 

 

 

Suggested editing.

 

The majority of people, myself included at the guild summit believe Ilum and open world PvP is being thrown out the window permanently. Based on what i heard at the guild summit and seeing this http://www.theimperialnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ilum.jpg. People are thinking Ilum/open world PvP is being phased out permanently. You really need to make a sticky or at least make it known on here.

 

 

Are you aware of this being peoples view? Either way, Gabe or someone needs to post and say what was said at the guild summit about Ilum.

 

On a side note, I thought open world PvP/Ilum was being phased out myself until the guild summit. Please let people know this isn't true in the PvP forum with a sticky or post thank you.

 

Third, Where are these people who "believe Ilum and open world PvP is being thrown out the window permanently"? I don't know any of them. :rolleyes:

Edited by Kourage
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First of all you might want look into the situation your posting about and get some info about it.

 

If it so horrible to read then dont everyone else seems to be ok doing it just fine even stephen reid.

 

Had you spent less time concerned about thread titles and reading the forums here you might realize the majority think that so much that ive given up posting what stephen said on this post. Bioware/ea wants people to believe theat open world pvp is bieng phased out and not put out an official sticky thats thier business.

 

Its quite easy to criticize i dont see you doing anything but bieng negative and even contributing to the issue at hand. Go make a better "proper" post then if you think you can

 

 

 

First of all, I think you should change your title to something that describes your topic.

 

Second, it is horrible to read with the run on sentences and errors. I'd go back and edit it. I can not understand these moderators forcing people to stick to one thread for a discussion, and choosing one that is written so poorly and not even properly titled.

 

 

 

Suggested editing.

 

 

 

Third, Where are these people who "believe Ilum and open world PvP is being thrown out the window permanently"? I don't know any of them. :rolleyes:

Edited by hargrave
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First of all you might want look into the situation your posting about and get some info about it.

 

If it so horrible to read then dont everyone else seems to be ok doing it just fine even stephen reid.

 

Had you spent less time concerned about thread titles and reading the forums here you might realize the majority think that so much that ive given up posting what stephen said on this post. Bioware/ea wants people to believe theat open world pvp is bieng phased out and not put out an official sticky thats thier business.

 

Its quite easy to criticize i dont see you doing anything but bieng negative and even contributing to the issue at hand. Go make a better "proper" post then if you think you can

 

show me some one who doesnt think that it isnt lol. If i was to post the links to the threads of people thiking it is it would go in the 1,000's

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It's interesting to see how this thread is divided into 2 categories:

 

1) Those who played Daoc and know how good open world pvp can be.

 

2) Those who seem to think pvp is what Warcraft gave them.

 

 

Easy to see why people are satisfied with grinding the same 3 warzones ad infinitum to gain gear to grind the same 3 warzones more effectively. Am I the only one who can see this? I feel like i'm going crazy sometimes. The same **** happened in Rift.

 

Knock warcraft all you want but wintergrasp did exactly what the developers and the masses wanted. It provided a consistent open world pvp area that was both pvp and objective oriented depending on how you wanted to play it. Plus winning it gave the faction something worth while instead of a lame airshow of ships attacking it

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Ok.

 

First pvp needs consequences. For there to be reward there needs to be risk. In this I ask you to consider kill looting with a 10% chance of a damaged piece of gear drop, 30% chance of a mod or 2, 30% chance of quality materials dropping and a 50% of basic materials ,dropping. When you kill someone, they go home naked. No more zerging, unless they have endless sets of gear. Remove expertise, you can keep pvp gear make it cheaper so if someone is crazy enough to use it consistently then good for them. It makes crafters happy, it makes the economy happy, it makes the victors happy (loot). It should make you happy too, as it creates a credit sink. Don't worry about RMT, that is the least concern right now.

 

Uhhh, no. Losing gear is ridiculous in this game because of the difficulty getting it. Players would quickly lose interest in taking that kind of risk just to get some valor. That would only work if gear wasn't a concern but then losing it wouldn't be a concern either and the whole game just changed dramatically.

 

But you are 100% right that there should be consequences. Currently there is almost zero risk vs. reward in this game (unless you count having to respawn and run back taking some time as a risk).

 

Consequences can be achieved in other ways. Perhaps a 5 minute debuff where your damage is reduced and your defensive stat is reduced which makes you much squishier. Maybe lose some credits (not a lot but enough that will add up after repeated deaths). Maybe lose some valor (again not a lot but enough). Something that doesn't stop you from wanting to jump back into the fight but doesn't burn you hard. Imagine losing your BM chest piece after getting killed? Uh... no.

 

But you are on the right track though. Risk vs. reward is needed in pvp and this game seems to not have any.

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suggestions on making world pvp work

 

1. make quest zones and objectives overlap, the more we encounter each other, the higher the possibility of getting into battle.

2. create points that can be captured that provide resources/buffs/bonuses in a zone

3. quest that requires you to protect an NPC that is being targeted by the other faction

4. give quests to both sides that require farming of a limited resource or mob

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what would have been a fast and easy short term solution would be to put pvp bases on other planets so if ilum is just reps bieng camped they can go elswhere and the imps who dont like sitting and watching rep base camp bored could go else where and see if theres fights going on at other bases. Its just that ilum is the onl pvp base. I dont know why it would have made it a lot better to have other open world pvp bases to go to while they fix ilum
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When EA/Mythic removed fortresses from zone progression in WAR, they told us they had great 'plans'. What we got was an empty building everyone rode past for 2+ years.

 

While I appreciate the need to go back to the drawing board, I for one think leaving it in place as is, is better then not having any world PvP options at all, specially if EA/Bioware plans to take 2+ years with their plans.

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Ilum is being deprecated in Game Update 1.2. The Open World PvP area on Ilum will still be present in 1.2, but rewards previously gained in Ilum will be available in Warzones and that's where we expect the bulk of PvP to take place for now.

 

As we said during the Guild Summit, the PvP team is 'going back to the drawing board' with Ilum. That means they want to rework it to be fun and engaging. We accept there are issues with the current design and want to ensure that what we end up with is enjoyable for PvP fans. We have no ETA on when a redesigned Ilum might be available, but when we do have more news, we'll share it.

 

The PvP team definitely monitors these Forums and would love to see constructive feedback on Open World PvP and how you feel it could be improved. They have their own ideas, of course, and they've read many of the posts here but more feedback is always welcome.

 

I really wish we could have a discussion about open world pvp where we knew we were talking about all the contested planets and not just Ilum.

 

It looks like Merc-coms were intended rewards for open world pvp but what happened there? Why cant we have rewards for battles on Tat, Alderan or other pvp enabled planets? Is there no mechanism for rewarding kills within your lvl bracket to reduce farming of lower lvl players. Was the pvp community just not worth the effort in making a system to reward honorable kills and not pharming lowbies? Or will the game just not support that lvl of activity on the contested planets?

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The majority of people myself included up to the guild summit believe ilum and open world pvp is being thrown out the window permanently. Based on what i heard at the guild summit and seeing this http://www.theimperialnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/ilum.jpg and people still thinking ilum/open world pvp is bieng phased out permanently you really need to make a sticky or at least make it known on here.

 

 

Im not sure if youve realized this or are not aware of this bieng peoples view? Either way gabe or someone needs to post and say what was said at the guild summit about ilum.

 

On a side note like i said i thought open world pvp/ilum was bieng phased out myself until the guild summit. Please let people know this isnt true in the pvp forum with a sticky or post thank you.

 

 

Well if the community gets together and does it with some organisation we can have our Ilum battles agen :)

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...Warzones and that's where we expect the bulk of PvP to take place for now.

 

Thank you for that information. PvP is officially relegated to the minigames known as warzones. Goodbye SWTOR.

Edited by Absit
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Agree with most of ProfessorWalsh. Here are my additional suggestions/differences with his thoughts:

 

First, the other faction balancer in DAOC was the 3rd faction. If a server had a faction population imbalance, 2 of the factions would naturally and not via any game mechanism "team up" against the stronger realm until balance was restored. This also keeps every faction wary of the other faction even when they are "teaming up" which helps develop the pvp/fvf/rvr community.

 

How to create a 3rd faction in this game when it wasn't design in from the beginning? JFC, with all of the talent they assembled, I don't know why they didn't start with 3, but here is my 2 yen's worth...

1) Light/Dark/Grey: For both PvP and PvE servers, your Faction Life as it relates to Opvp/rvr/fvf should start at 50 and it only applies on Illum or whatever implemtnation of open pvp they go with. Each person's faction is determined by their light, dark or neutralness. A player reaching 50 will be assigned a faction based on this characteristic. A character can use daily quests to adjust their alignment but it will take multiple days to 'fix' them obviously. A player with mulitple characters of differing alignment will have a timeout period when switching to an alternate level 50.

 

2) SWTOR has Reps, Imps, and Mercs but they only implemented 2 factions. Make an expansion that moves all of the merc classes to a 3rd faction. I know this would be a huge upset for some people, so give the masses with guilds set and friends developed a one time choice for the toons that would be moved to the 3rd Merc realm. Obviously there would need to be some class rebalancing here and a few other storyline issues.

 

Obviously my 2 yen's worth is worth just about that and I don't have to implent any of it so easier said than done. I just really really hope that they get whatever new stuff done before people leave because SWTOR has a good base game to build from.

 

 

Okay Stephen, here is my suggestions for improving Ilum.

 

First I'm going to give a breakdown of what open world PVP is and what are the inherent flaws with it:

 

Open World PVP is basically when each faction may attack the other.

 

An open world PVP zone is a zone specifically with incentives to cause that to occur.

 

Now, there is an inherent flaw in open world PVP in that a numerical faction imbalance has a deep and nasty impact if two groups come to blows, the larger side will always win. If objectives are there to be taken that don't require direct player conflict then the reward has to come from holding it rather than taking it, if there is incentive to take it, but then no incentive to hold it, then people will trade it off.

 

These are, unfortunately, the two mistakes you made in open world PVP on Ilum. The first build was based around objectives with incentives only being given to taking, rather than holding, the objective. The second build was based around killing enemy players which provided too large of an advantage to the faction with the higher population.

 

Thus the zone cannot be based around kill numbers but must be based around an objective. This objective must be something that grants a reward for being held that is tangible enough that it lures others into the zone. This objective must also be complicated enough to hold that it isn't simply a numbers game with the overpopulated realm being able to accomplish it.

 

How do you do this? That is the difficult part of this.

 

A game known as Dark Age of Camelot managed this by giving each of the three realms a "relic" holding these "relics" each gave a different bonus to the realm (in PVP and PVE) that held it. The relic forts were protected by extremely powerful NPCs, however these NPC's could be weakened by claiming and holding a number of lesser fortresses in the zone. Because the NPCs were so powerful the lower population realm could often defend against superior numbers by either aiding at the main battle or retaking lesser forts while the larger population realm was attacking the relic fort.

 

This forced the higher population force to leave defenders at the numerous smaller forts in the zone, which lessened the numbers that could hit the relic fort. This served to actually spread their numbers significantly enough that the lesser realm could actually field nearly equal numbers at the relic fort if the enemy spread their numbers to protect the minor forts.

 

This, in my opinion, is the most elegant solution to the current issue.

 

In fact we can look to "Return of the Jedi" for a possible scenario:

 

In Return of the Jedi the Death Star was protected by a shield generator. This shield generator was powerful enough to protect the Death Star from being attacked. So a group had to take out the shield generator to make the Death Star vulnerable.

 

If we want to keep the battle focused on Ilum I would do something similar.

 

My Idea:

 

On the planet of Ilum an ancient Jedi stronghold has been unearthed. It is protected by a very powerful force of ancient Rakatan droids. These droids are powered by a series of six recently discovered Rakatan energy stations. A faction may defeat these droids and claim the stations which weaken the droids at the stronghold.

 

The stronghold can be seized by either faction by defeating the command droid. The main computer can then be reprogrammed to recognize that faction as "friendlies" and the other faction as "enemies." At that point holding the power stations strengthens the defenses for the currently holding faction.

 

Inside the stronghold are a number of powerful objects. The first is a series of five special crystal synthesizers. These special crystals degrade quickly however so new crystals must be farmed every 24 hours. These crystals are the best crystals in the game for both PVP and PVE. (These crystals are available in blue, green, red, purple, and white.) These crystals provide a stat bonus of +51 but only last for 24 hours.

 

On top of that holding this stronghold increases all valor, experience, and credits gained by 15% to all members of the holding faction.

Edited by Sandmahn
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After much thought, world pvp cannot be made perfect by the developers, or if at all. In wow, world pvp was created by the players, and the gave incentives by the developers later in the form of achievements and such. But people have to realize..... Do you really need a reward to pvp? Or can u just play for fun and skill? I remember on azgalor ( a wow pvp server) many years ago had the best 4 horde guilds ( equiv to empire ) team up, and sacked stormwind, the alliance's Capitol city...... They held the city for 2 days, and then blizzard had to server reset because the alliance couldn't get in!!!!

 

Did the horde get rewarded for sieging the city? None at all. But it was fun. Bioware, please open Capitol worlds. Or, make a city on each planet and grant rewards to the faction that controls most of them! All of the planets have markers that either say empire, republic, or contested! Why not borrow winter grasp, but use it on each world, slowly implementing them planet by planet and show the war you created!

Edited by BaneOfKings
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It's interesting to see how this thread is divided into 2 categories:

 

1) Those who played Daoc and know how good open world pvp can be.

 

2) Those who seem to think pvp is what Warcraft gave them.

 

Speak for yourself. WoW before battlegrounds had great world PvP. Stranglethorn Vale and outside UBRS were constant hot spots.

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From what I gathered while drinking with Gabe one night of the summit, open world PvP is not being phased out.

 

Then he better get moving - because he doesn't have the luxury of time. Maybe a sober Gabe would care to comment on this openly?!

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It has to be interesting and have a point otherwise why wouldn't we all just go play some FPS or RTS for PvP. That means some sort of interesting larger sustainable game mechanic that the developers put in place. Even a game like Eve Online which has very little in the way of rules has some incentive to 'own' property and destroy someone else's. I've got RL objectives that mean way more than this game and if a developer can't develop a system that has some incentive for sustainable open world PvP then they've failed IRL to meet their stated objective to have open world PvP. I don't think many people would accept the "just have fun with a ball of crap and like it" solution. That doesn't mean that players won't ever drive interesting events in this game, but there has to be a basis for the conflict.

 

 

After much thought, world pvp cannot be made perfect by the developers, or if at all. In wow, world pvp was created by the players, and the gave incentives by the developers later in the form of achievements and such. But people have to realize..... Do you really need a reward to pvp? Or can u just play for fun and skill? I remember on azgalor ( a wow pvp server) many years ago had the best 4 horde guilds ( equiv to empire ) team up, and sacked stormwind, the alliance's Capitol city...... They held the city for 2 days, and then blizzard had to server reset because the alliance couldn't get in!!!!

 

Did the horde get rewarded for sieging the city? None at all. But it was fun. Bioware, please open Capitol worlds. Or, make a city on each planet and grant rewards to the faction that controls most of them! All of the planets have markers that either say empire, republic, or contested! Why not borrow winter grasp, but use it on each world, slowly implementing them planet by planet and show the war you created!

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After much thought, world pvp cannot be made perfect by the developers, or if at all. In wow, world pvp was created by the players, and the gave incentives by the developers later in the form of achievements and such. But people have to realize..... Do you really need a reward to pvp? Or can u just play for fun and skill? I remember on azgalor ( a wow pvp server) many years ago had the best 4 horde guilds ( equiv to empire ) team up, and sacked stormwind, the alliance's Capitol city...... They held the city for 2 days, and then blizzard had to server reset because the alliance couldn't get in!!!!

 

Did the horde get rewarded for sieging the city? None at all. But it was fun. Bioware, please open Capitol worlds. Or, make a city on each planet and grant rewards to the faction that controls most of them! All of the planets have markers that either say empire, republic, or contested! Why not borrow winter grasp, but use it on each world, slowly implementing them planet by planet and show the war you created!

 

You're on the right track but then you screwed it all up. World PvP dies when you give rewards for other kinds of PvP, because then everyone goes and does that.

 

In original WoW, PvP had no rewards whatsoever. So people only PvP'd for fun. As soon as they attached rewards with battlegrounds, everyone went there and world PvP was toast.

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