Jump to content

Emperor's Wrath vs. Darth Nox (spoilers)


JackNimbyl

Recommended Posts

Then should we not count the majority of the feats Nox performs as they are the walking definition of 'the plot demands it'.

 

 

Jeff? As in Jeff the 'I-am-such-an-edgelord-tool-' killer? How is one of the worst products of creepypasta relevant here?

 

 

No one here cares if you're bashing him or not, but it's pretty clear that you have a big bias for Nox as you continually write off anything the Wrath does as luck or plot, when the same could easily be applied to Nox.

 

Anyways, I was using Jeff as an example of how easily Nox would crush the Wrath in a fight. That's how he's relevant here. He's the best, but you can have your opinion. Now back on topic, Nox is less plot demand it than the Wrath in my opinion and would easily annihilate the Wrath because of reasons in threads listed above. I respect your right to have opinions.

 

Also, who would you think would win the battle between each other, The Wrath or Darth Nox? I think Wrath would easily destroy Nox in a lightsaber duel, but in a force duel, Nox would easily win.

Edited by ethanredmace
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 394
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Anyways, I was using Jeff as an example of how easily Nox would crush the Wrath in a fight.

I want to explain how bull that comparason is... but at the same time I want to forget those stains of literature.

 

Nox is less plot demand it than the Wrath in my opinion and would easily annihilate the Wrath because of reasons in threads listed above.

Most of your reasons purposly ignore any feat the Wrath performs, it doesn't matter if you think one or the other is built upon 'plot demands it', what does matter is that whether either of them are is irrelevant. Because it doesn't change the fact that they were still able to preform those feats.

 

Also, who would you think would win the battle between each other, The Wrath or Darth Nox?

Nox's saber wins when he accidentally stabs himself, he had been warned not to stare down the hilt of his saber.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't remember a lot of the Wrath's force abilities. The only ones I remember lore-wise are basic ones like force choke and force push which aren't very impressive compared to force telekinesis, force lightning, force-walking, and all the other lore-abilities that Darth Nox has.

 

Force choke and push are abilities that even lowly Sith Acolytes can use, so yeah. In my opinion, the reasons the Wrath didn't get injured is because of the Wrath absorbing everything Baras has with his lightsaber and also because of the plot demanding it. Also, its pretty impressive of how The Wrath got Baras to not be able to channel anymore force abilities or powers, I admit, but it also might have been because of luck.

 

I do admit that the Wrath is a great light-saber duelist if not the second greatest lightsaber duelist in SWTOR, the first being Arcann, and he would definitely easily annihilate Darth Nox in a lightsaber duel. If you take in Nox's force abilities, powers, force connection, and other things, Nox would easily crush the Wrath like how Jeff would of easily killed Slenderman and won instead of a draw if someone reasonable was writing the long story in like 1.2 seconds, 5.3 seconds, or something like that.

 

PS. Sorry if sounds like I'm bashing the Wrath, I'm not, and he's very great in general and very powerful. The Emperor's Wrath is my second favorite class/character in the SWTOR game, first being Darth Nox (Sith Inqusitior) but again, he's not as powerful and couldn't beat Nox in a force duel, again a lightsaber duel yes, but the point of this thread is to discuss who is more powerful and who would win a fight. Also, I do admit the Wrath's feats are amazing, but Nox's feats are better and more flashy in my opinion.

 

Luck isn't apart of star wars, especially when it comes to force users. See Episode 4. Just because he doesn't use force lightning doesn't mean he can't beat someone who does (See his fight with Baras.) There is no "The plot demanded it" because the warrior has been stated by everyone to be a wrecking ball. The plot made it clear that facing the wrath is equivalent of a death sentence. In fact, he has the title The Emperor's Wrath because he was chosen by the Emperor himself to be his personal executioner. It doesn't work that way. Another example is how Darth Maul is pretty close to Dooku in power despite Maul never showing force lightning. You're mistaking flashy force powers as a sign of superiority. That isn't the case.

 

You also completely missed the Emperor's voice feat or chose to willfully ignore it. Especially since the Emperor himself, even his voice, is pretty much above everyone else on the council.

Edited by Rhyltran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luck isn't apart of star wars, especially when it comes to force users. See Episode 4. Just because he doesn't use force lightning doesn't mean he can't beat someone who does (See his fight with Baras.) There is no "The plot demanded it" because the warrior has been stated by everyone to be a wrecking ball. The plot made it clear that facing the wrath is equivalent of a death sentence. In fact, he has the title The Emperor's Wrath because he was chosen by the Emperor himself to be his personal executioner. It doesn't work that way. Another example is how Darth Maul is pretty close to Dooku in power despite Maul never showing force lightning. You're mistaking flashy force powers as a sign of superiority. That isn't the case.

 

You also completely missed the Emperor's voice feat or chose to willfully ignore it. Especially since the Emperor himself, even his voice, is pretty much above everyone else on the council.

 

I don't think the Emperor's Voice is above everyone on the Council in terms of power/strength, Thanaton and Baras alone are stronger than the voice. Therefor, even the weakest members are stronger than the Voice along with the strongest members/leaders Darth Nox and Darth Marr who are also stronger. Nox's powers and feats, while being flashy, are more impressive than the Wrath's, not because their flashy, because of what they do/are, and etc.

 

You're right, I was confusing it with my head-cannon/SWTOR fan-fictions of where luck is all there just like in real-life.

 

PS. I hope I'm not confusing my SWTOR head-cannon/fanfiction and etc where Nox is the most powerful being in the galaxy with actual game lore and mechanics but those don't count in this thread. Also, I think the battle between Darth Nox and The Emperor's Wrath would be a close fight, but it would be a draw though. Nobody would win, nobody would die.

Edited by ethanredmace
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the Emperor's Voice is above everyone on the Council in terms of power/strength, Thanaton and Baras alone are stronger than the voice. Therefor, even the weakest members are stronger than the Voice along with the strongest members/leaders Darth Nox and Darth Marr who are also stronger. Nox's powers and feats, while being flashy, are more impressive than the Wrath's, not because their flashy, because of what they do/are, and etc.

 

You're right, I was confusing it with my head-cannon/SWTOR fan-fictions of where luck is all there just like in real-life.

 

PS. I hope I'm not confusing my SWTOR head-cannon/fanfiction and etc where Nox is the most powerful being in the galaxy with actual game lore and mechanics but those don't count in this thread. Also, I think the battle between Darth Nox and The Emperor's Wrath would be a close fight, but it would be a draw though. Nobody would win, nobody would die.

 

Emperor's Voice contains Emperor's full power and is above Dark Council in power multiple times. Emperor (using emperor's voice) even single handedly wiped out all of the Dark Council members at the same time when they tried to overthrow him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the Emperor's Voice is above everyone on the Council in terms of power/strength, Thanaton and Baras alone are stronger than the voice. Therefor, even the weakest members are stronger than the Voice along with the strongest members/leaders Darth Nox and Darth Marr who are also stronger. Nox's powers and feats, while being flashy, are more impressive than the Wrath's, not because their flashy, because of what they do/are, and etc.

 

You're right, I was confusing it with my head-cannon/SWTOR fan-fictions of where luck is all there just like in real-life.

 

PS. I hope I'm not confusing my SWTOR head-cannon/fanfiction and etc where Nox is the most powerful being in the galaxy with actual game lore and mechanics but those don't count in this thread. Also, I think the battle between Darth Nox and The Emperor's Wrath would be a close fight, but it would be a draw though. Nobody would win, nobody would die.

 

If that was the case the Jedi order would have been easily wiped out. Some of the strongest members of the Jedi Council, alongside the Jedi Knight the first time, were completely overwhelmed and defeated by the Emperor's voice force storm. If each member of the Dark Council was that strong or stronger then the Jedi order would have completely collapsed. To assume the Sith are that far above the Jedi doesn't really make any sense. Likewise, as the poster above me mentioned, there was a time when the previous Dark Council tried to stand up to the Emperor and got slaughtered. No, most of the members of the dark council are NOT stronger than the Emperor's voice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well the Jedi and the Republic could have been wiped out but Vitiate didnt want to do it since he had other plans.

 

Except the Emperor was absent for a long time. My point still stands. If each council member is strong enough to one shot the majority of the jedi council.. the war would have been over no contest. The only logical explanation is.. the emperor's voice is far more powerful than most of the dark council.

Edited by Rhyltran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the Emperor's Voice is above everyone on the Council in terms of power/strength, Thanaton and Baras alone are stronger than the voice. Therefor, even the weakest members are stronger than the Voice along with the strongest members/leaders Darth Nox and Darth Marr who are also stronger. Nox's powers and feats, while being flashy, are more impressive than the Wrath's, not because their flashy, because of what they do/are, and etc.

I think we should remember though, that the Sith way is not always about power and strength. Though power is certainly sought as is strength, it's practically a tradition for Sith to overwhelm each other through treachery and cunning. Some Sith cling to the idea that "the strong killing the weak" strengthens the Sith order, but in reality, many Sith use tricks, rather than raw strength.

 

I think Nox was always supposed to be an example of power through treachery and cunning (like Sidious) and Wrath was always supposed to be an example of raw power through midichlorians (or whatever lore reason you want to go with), like Anakin/Vader.

 

Sidious is powerful and so is Nox, but it's a different kind of power compared to Vader/Wrath. Strength mostly through cunning for the former. I mean, I know the lore says Sidious is really powerful (and probably way more powerful than Nox) but remember we're talking about types of power. If Sidious had had the kind of direct battle prowess that Anakin/Vader did, there'd have been no point in him plotting in such a convoluted way. He could have just led a brutal war with himself at the helm, slaughtered the Jedi, and taken over. Much simpler. (By the way... side note... if Sidious created Anakin, why the **** didn't he just kidnap him at a young age and train him to be a Sith? Would have been such a more straightforward path to corrupting him lol.)

 

In other words, we shouldn't forget that who is stronger isn't necessarily about raw power because in this world, raw power can be readily overwhelmed by cunning if executed properly. In pure strength, I think the Wrath would wipe out the Dark Council and munch on Nox as a snack, but that's assuming a straightforward confrontation, with no plotting and no tricks. Which is highly unlikely to happen among Sith.

 

In short: The more I come back to this idea, the more I think that what it really comes down to is... who plotted to be in a better position at the right time? Under controlled circumstances, I think Wrath wipes the floor, but that's not how the SWTOR world works. There are no "controlled circumstances." Nox would never challenge the Wrath to a direct duel, or accept such a challenge, without having a trick up his sleeve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I

 

I think Nox was always supposed to be an example of power through treachery and cunning (like Sidious) and Wrath was always supposed to be an example of raw power through midichlorians (or whatever lore reason you want to go with), like Anakin/Vader.

But that's the thing, Nox isn't an example of power through treachery and cunning, he's an example of raw power. Though the Wrath isn't entirley an example of power through treachery and cunning either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But that's the thing, Nox isn't an example of power through treachery and cunning, he's an example of raw power. Though the Wrath isn't entirley an example of power through treachery and cunning either.

 

Nah, this entire mmo is a power fantasy. To be fair most game heroes are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But that's the thing, Nox isn't an example of power through treachery and cunning, he's an example of raw power. Though the Wrath isn't entirley an example of power through treachery and cunning either.

I guess we're operating on different definitions of treachery and cunning.

 

Robot face's downfall was pure treachery and cunning.

As was taking on the power of all those ghosts.

And being reborn or whatever.

And the whole plotline with the cult.

 

Certainly Nox gained some "raw power" throughout, but the theme was not one of victory through raw power. The overriding theme was about solving some riddle, or orchestrating some grand manipulation, to take down an oversized enemy. Like David and Goliath.

 

Compared to Wrath, whose overriding theme is just pure, unadulterated power fantasy. Victory through domination. From start to finish, even with companions like slave Vette and DS Jaesa. It's all about domination.

 

Compare that to some of the companions for Nox, like the Khem/Zash situation. Again, like solving a riddle or puzzle. Ancient artifacts and strange rituals. The theme is more of an investigative one, of exploring the unknown and overturning long lost secrets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess we're operating on different definitions of treachery and cunning.

 

Robot face's downfall was pure treachery and cunning.

As was taking on the power of all those ghosts.

And being reborn or whatever.

And the whole plotline with the cult.

 

Certainly Nox gained some "raw power" throughout, but the theme was not one of victory through raw power. The overriding theme was about solving some riddle, or orchestrating some grand manipulation, to take down an oversized enemy. Like David and Goliath.

 

Compared to Wrath, whose overriding theme is just pure, unadulterated power fantasy. Victory through domination. From start to finish, even with companions like slave Vette and DS Jaesa. It's all about domination.

 

Compare that to some of the companions for Nox, like the Khem/Zash situation. Again, like solving a riddle or puzzle. Ancient artifacts and strange rituals. The theme is more of an investigative one, of exploring the unknown and overturning long lost secrets.

 

Number 1: Zash's plan and idea. She told you how to execute it. If Sidious told Maul who to kill and how to kill them it isn't proof that Maul is treacherous only that Sidious is. It does show he's capable of taking out the target, however.

 

Number 2: Kallig's idea. He tells you that you have a natural talent for it and where to learn it. It's his plan to get you strong enough to deal with Thanaton. It's not something the inquisitor came up with on his own. It's not some technique he invented.

 

Number 3: Again, Zash helps the inquisitor get there. It's not something the inquisitor solves on his/her own.

 

Number 4: Again, not the inquisitor's sole idea.

 

There's not much proving that he's a cunning, treacherous, or manipulative individual. Most of Nox's ideas come from others. Nox takes a lot of guidance. The problem is most of it comes via Zash's manipulation. Why it's a power fantasy? Because the one thing she didn't count on was just how damn powerful the inquisitor was. Same with Thanaton. Despite them out maneuvering and outplaying the inquisitor his/her raw power is enough to overcome them. To be fair, I'm not trying to claim Wrath is any better. You spend most of the game getting manipulated by Baras who also finally enacts his plan to kill you and much like Nox it fails and the Wrath comes gunning for him.

 

If I re-call the developers have stated that Nox's theme isn't manipulation/cunning. It's a story about survival. Starting from nothing and clawing your way to the top. Whereas the Warrior is about already having power and crushing those who try to take it from you. Both are power fantasies. Just two different types.

Edited by Rhyltran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Number 1: Zash's plan and idea. She told you how to execute it. If Sidious told Maul who to kill and how to kill them it isn't proof that Maul is treacherous only that Sidious is. It does show he's capable of taking out the target, however.

 

Number 2: Kallig's idea. He tells you that you have a natural talent for it and where to learn it. It's his plan to get you strong enough to deal with Thanaton. It's not something the inquisitor came up with on his own. It's not some technique he invented.

 

Number 3: Again, Zash helps the inquisitor get there. It's not something the inquisitor solves on his/her own.

 

Number 4: Again, not the inquisitor's sole idea.

 

There's not much proving that he's a cunning, treacherous, or manipulative individual. Most of Nox's ideas come from others. Nox takes a lot of guidance. The problem is most of it comes via Zash's manipulation. Why it's a power fantasy? Because the one thing she didn't count on was just how damn powerful the inquisitor was. Same with Thanaton. Despite them out maneuvering and outplaying the inquisitor his/her raw power is enough to overcome them. To be fair, I'm not trying to claim Wrath is any better. You spend most of the game getting manipulated by Baras who also finally enacts his plan to kill you and much like Nox it fails and the Wrath comes gunning for him.

 

If I re-call the developers have stated that Nox's theme isn't manipulation/cunning. It's a story about survival. Starting from nothing and clawing your way to the top. Whereas the Warrior is about already having power and crushing those who try to take it from you. Both are power fantasies. Just two different types.

If you have a link to the devs saying that, I'll take it to mean something. :p

 

See, I don't see how what you've said makes Nox somehow not cunning or manipulative. He's supposed to be in training. He's not going to be coming up with all of these clever ideas on his own. Just because he used a bunch of other peoples' ideas and advice doesn't change the fact that he executed their advice flawlessly.

 

A more brutish person might have fudged the whole thing a million times over. Seems the worst you could argue is that Nox is just good at following orders, rather than being clever, but that undermines the survival argument, since that makes him into a big dum dum who only got by on having the right friends and ancestors. Basically makes him into a privileged moron who happened to be born from the right stock, which contradicts the "coming from nothing" narrative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you have a link to the devs saying that, I'll take it to mean something. :p

 

See, I don't see how what you've said makes Nox somehow not cunning or manipulative. He's supposed to be in training. He's not going to be coming up with all of these clever ideas on his own. Just because he used a bunch of other peoples' ideas and advice doesn't change the fact that he executed their advice flawlessly.

 

A more brutish person might have fudged the whole thing a million times over. Seems the worst you could argue is that Nox is just good at following orders, rather than being clever, but that undermines the survival argument, since that makes him into a big dum dum who only got by on having the right friends and ancestors. Basically makes him into a privileged moron who happened to be born from the right stock, which contradicts the "coming from nothing" narrative.

 

The videos were from back when the game first came out and they were speaking about the concept behind the characters. I'm not going to dig them up but I will respond to you claiming it undermines the survival aspect. Not quite. I'd argue that Nox is wise for making sure he/she has such capable allies to help him/her with things he/she has issues with. The problem with what you said in this post is that "Nox is in training so.." but we never see Nox come up with brilliant schemes of his own. The problem here is that logically, since we haven't seen it, we shouldn't take it as a truth until proven otherwise.

 

In real life the most successful kings and queens listened to their advisors. They made sure to surround themselves with people who had skills and abilities they couldn't in order to properly run and maintain their kingdom. If you're not a good strategist, but you need to fight a war, the most logical thing to do is befriend/hire a good strategist. I'd argue while Nox may not be this manipulative mastermind, like sidious, he/she is highly intelligent. Like I said, I'm not knocking Nox. I just find he is underestimated in certain categories and she is overestimated in others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The videos were from back when the game first came out and they were speaking about the concept behind the characters. I'm not going to dig them up but I will respond to you claiming it undermines the survival aspect. Not quite. I'd argue that Nox is wise for making sure he/she has such capable allies to help him/her with things he/she has issues with. The problem with what you said in this post is that "Nox is in training so.." but we never see Nox come up with brilliant schemes of his own. The problem here is that logically, since we haven't seen it, we shouldn't take it as a truth until proven otherwise.

 

In real life the most successful kings and queens listened to their advisors. They made sure to surround themselves with people who had skills and abilities they couldn't in order to properly run and maintain their kingdom. If you're not a good strategist, but you need to fight a war, the most logical thing to do is befriend/hire a good strategist. I'd argue while Nox may not be this manipulative mastermind, like sidious, he/she is highly intelligent. Like I said, I'm not knocking Nox. I just find he is underestimated in certain categories and she is overestimated in others.

I guess Sidious might seem like a poor comparison because Sidious orchestrated the downfall of the entire Jedi Order and such. And Nox did nothing at all compared to that. I just meant the flavor of the story, not that Nox really compares.

 

But I can see the argument for Nox being more a strategist than a manipulator. That's a definition I'm ok with.

 

BTW, I'm not one of those ones who feels strongly about Nox anyway. I didn't enjoy the SI storyline all that much. So you don't have to worry about me defending him hardcore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But I can see the argument for Nox being more a strategist than a manipulator. That's a definition I'm ok with.

 

I'm pretty sure Rhy was saying that Nox wasn't shown to be either, really the only chance Nox gets to be a cunning stratagist/manipulator is on Alderaan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well Darth Nox, it is obvious, with his own power he is not ofc more powerfull than Wrath but with powers he gained he is more powerfull than Wrath.Emperor didn't choosed Wrath because he was most powerfull but because of other things, he needed someone he can manipulate, I doubt you could manipulate Dart Nox like that.I am speaking about them as male it's easier for me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well Darth Nox, it is obvious, with his own power he is not ofc more powerfull than Wrath but with powers he gained he is more powerfull than Wrath.Emperor didn't choosed Wrath because he was most powerfull but because of other things, he needed someone he can manipulate, I doubt you could manipulate Dart Nox like that.I am speaking about them as male it's easier for me.

 

The Emperor needed someone powerful to enforce his will as his Wrath, otherwise it would be a pointless position. And Nox has been manipulated before too. He's hardly above that sort of thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath could be both of equal power, but the thing that defines them, in my opinion, is the fact that when the Emperor was slain by the Jedi Knight, Darth Nox's title and position were still powerful, and feared, whereas the Wrath's was not. After the Emperor's defeat, and ultimately, when he returned to betray the Empire -as seen on Ziost- the Wrath had no position in the Empire except to work for the Dark Council, which among them sat Nox. Their force abilities and combat strategies/tactics could be equal, but their position within the Empire, at least prior to the invasion led by the Eternal Empire, were hardly the same, making Nox, superior; at least, in title, and position of power. Edited by sithsurvives
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A hard one to be sure!

Indeed the Wrath is more powerful physically and more adept in lightsaber combat but Darth Nox has far more knowledge of the force and it's secrets. I saw someone say that even though Nox defeated a dark council member it was because of the help of force ghosts. While technically true the force ghosts didn't help him/her (unless you went light side then they sort of did), Darth Nox basically enslaved them and used their power for him/herself. This is a classic case of brain over brawn, mind over matter. Those who aren't strong need to be smart and Darth Nox has the potential to be the smartest of them all. Example, look at the Emperor. We rarely see him using lightsaber combat at all but he has managed to survive for hundreds of years by manipulating the force to extend his life. Strength alone is rarely enough. I'm not saying that the Wrath is dumb, he obviously isn't but he far less adept in the force. In the end pitting them against each other is nearly impossible I think, the Wrath with his stamina and Nox with his force, it'll be an unending battle that probably destroys an entire planet. Now imagine those two teaming up, that would be an unstoppable powerhouse which would make their enemies sh*t enough bricks to rebuild the Jedi Temple!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...