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You Guys Are Not Listening At All - Good Luck with the 5.0 Launch


Wayshuba

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If you mean bolster, then yes could be exactly 0.

 

There's going to be some difference between tier 0 and tier 3 gear, even if it's just marginal. Which is hard to do with a bolster. See my earlier comments about the overall difference between tier 0 and tier 3 gear stats being down in the 5% range.

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As i said owpvp is entirely different story. An extreme example of of balanced pvp is chess. Or any rts, or fps. Most of the mobas are fairly well balanced too. In any mmo there can't be real balance unless the skills are actually the same and differ only in appearance, but for instance ranked in gw2 was played with entirely equalized sets so there was no gear difference.

 

Having watched my nephews play CoD, what's balanced? Team play is rewarded, 4 soloists pays the price, which is what our current PvP model is fixing to learn the hard way because they won't have Expertise or bolster to carry them any more. In Aion, even in PvP instances, Dredge, there was no bolster. You went in with what you had, and did what you could. Team play could improve your chances, a group of soloists could spell defeat, no matter how well geared they were.

 

The only thing I see they need to change for WZs is brackets:

 

1. Entry level. Add a cut off for both Char lvl and Valor. If Valor reaches that cut off, then they move to the sub bracket, which would be sort of an entry level ranked for that level range. That level range should probably be 5 levels "wide", to make sure there's no "I can't hit him" moments.

 

2. Basic. This is the level where you're starting to have a bit more tools to work with, as far as rotations go. It should have the same level and Valor spacing as entry level.

 

3. Intermediate. etc. etc.

 

Doing something like this removes the "but he's level 69 in a WZ with a lvl 10", and removes the need for bolster. It is, after all, instanced. If ranks don't have enough players, then it's time to evaluate how important development money is for PvP going forward, or, as an after thought, it may be time to set up an "NPC team" for those PvE objective instances. Cut the rewards in half, and see how it goes.

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No, that was players who didn't care about pvp, but about pierce, 4x, conquest, whatever.

 

Yeah the interesting part of that is that even without double xp, the pvp dailies and weeklies are some of the best ways of leveling your characters especially when you are f2p/preferred. This attracts PvE'ers to PvP and their experience in PvP then ensures they come back as little as possible.

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How about the part where gear is going to drop all the way to 69? As far as PvP is concerned, it's finally going to what it should have been in the first place: If you can't compete, you have no business in there. What are they converting the existing PvP gear to? Did I miss that announcement? From 1 - 69 you're going to be able to obtain gear the same way everyone else is, buying it, or getting it as drops in other content. That you choose to cut yourself off from one avenue of obtaining gear isn't BW's fault, and it isn't my fault, and it isn't Joe Casual or Dick Raider's fault, it's your fault. The issue with "I only want to do (insert whatever here)" is "I".

 

Well, if the answer is that "you'll have to buy the mods from the vendor same as everyone else has to", then they better be increasing the rewards for running PvP content, otherwise PvP players will not be able to buy the mods with the credits they earn from playing that game mode.

 

Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

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Well, if the answer is that "you'll have to buy the mods from the vendor same as everyone else has to", then they better be increasing the rewards for running PvP content, otherwise PvP players will not be able to buy the mods with the credits they earn from playing that game mode.

 

Which comes back to "I" being the problem, yes? "I choose to run content where I don't have to pay for repairs, and therefore don't need a major influx of credits, so I should be rewarded differently than everyone else"? Really?

 

Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

 

Hey, can I borrow this for the "Why do Casuals need NiM gear" thread? I've been asking basically the same question since the firestorm hit, but you know how it goes.

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RNG is not going away. Please understand that we got a good change with the gear tying to what discipline you are in.

I for one am very happy with this change.

 

RNG gearing already went away with the Battlemaster boxes one time before, if the community stands strong and keeps saying what we want and what we don't want under any circumstances this new RNG can go away too. Don't accept only one small victory and give up.

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Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

 

Yeah, I see that as one of the big positives of the new system. You can play what you want.

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RNG gearing already went away with the Battlemaster boxes one time before, if the community stands strong and keeps saying what we want and what we don't want under any circumstances this new RNG can go away too. Don't accept only one small victory and give up.

 

It went away because it was not built around a core part off the game, and because it was a poor implementation. The first is demonstrably not true of galactic command, and the second remains to be demonstrated

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Yeah, I see that as one of the big positives of the new system. You can play what you want.

 

That would be true only if the GCX weekly cap is extremely small. If it's not that means that people who wish to stay competitive would have to do heroics, dailies, uprisings and ops aside from pvp.

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That would be true only if the GCX weekly cap is extremely small. If it's not that means that people who wish to stay competitive would have to do heroics, dailies, uprisings and ops aside from pvp.

 

Oh? Do you know something I don't?

 

Will just doing PvP not get you the levels needed to get the gear?

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Which comes back to "I" being the problem, yes? "I choose to run content where I don't have to pay for repairs, and therefore don't need a major influx of credits, so I should be rewarded differently than everyone else"? Really?

 

Well, if "I" run one hour of PvP in a group, I definitely don't earn upwards of 2 million do "I". Equally, "I" don't get 224 gear which will be a massive advantage at the start of 5.0 however you may wish to dress it up.

 

Equally, and I'll point this out, how do we know that 5.0 will not include repair bills for PvP, seeing as they're bringing all the gear in line now and removing expertise?

 

Hey, can I borrow this for the "Why do Casuals need NiM gear" thread? I've been asking basically the same question since the firestorm hit, but you know how it goes.

 

Of course, feel free :p

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That would be true only if the GCX weekly cap is extremely small. If it's not that means that people who wish to stay competitive would have to do heroics, dailies, uprisings and ops aside from pvp.

 

Actually.

 

I hope they limit the weekly CXP gain to exactly what you can get for running one operation, one PvP weekly, one GSF weekly, one planet of heroics..... if the design decision is to limit how fast players gain gear. Then all they need to do is turn those dials right down so everyone gets the exact same. Instead of saying "this type of content participation is more important, you HAVE to do this content, because WE say you HAVE TO".

 

That's something that's really irking me about GC, that BioWare are essentially telling players how they must play the game to their vision or suffer the consequences.

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Well, if "I" run one hour of PvP in a group, I definitely don't earn upwards of 2 million do "I". Equally, "I" don't get 224 gear which will be a massive advantage at the start of 5.0 however you may wish to dress it up.

 

"You" however, have the opportunity to do just that, go out and make a million credits, the same way others are doing it. How am I supposed to compete in a Ranked WZ since I have never set foot in one? The difference here? I chose to ignore PvP since I see it as pointless. There is no risk, and woo, PvE rewards. I can get those from PvE, mostly, w/out having to deal with the atypical PvP community. To wit: I should get free stuff, since I don't want to PvE.

 

Equally, and I'll point this out, how do we know that 5.0 will not include repair bills for PvP, seeing as they're bringing all the gear in line now and removing expertise?

 

This, like other things, remains to be seen. We don't know what's coming, but here we are, debating all the negative impact it's going to have. However, I'll refer to my above comment in this post: If one finds one's self needing credits, one can always swallow that "I don't want to do anything but PvP" pride, and go run a few heroics, like everyone else does.

 

Of course, feel free :p

 

Thx, I'll get it if I remember, might just make a sig.

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Oh? Do you know something I don't?

 

Will just doing PvP not get you the levels needed to get the gear?

 

Sure it will. However it's not the only thing that matters. The other thing that matters is the rate you're acquiring it. As far as i remember from the stream there will be increased cxp gain from some highlighted activity and also from the DvL bosses that spawn. All the talk about rate of 1 rank/hour is just good intentions. I've seen the same system in ESO with veteran ranks where people were grinding the fastest source of exp for hours. I'm positive that there will be some activity that gives biggest amount of cxp/hour which will be farmed 24/7. It's all speculation of course

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Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

 

Well this is a big point in all MMOs because you never can use full potential of your PvE gear in PvP.

The reason is that you cannot compare Mobs and Boss environments with Player environments that's why in any MMO your damage is reduced , you get buffs more armor, resists or whatever.

 

Balancing gear and using bolsters is not really a problem in SWTOR but content and rewards for PvP objectives ...

Edited by KnightOfTython
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Actually.

 

I hope they limit the weekly CXP gain to exactly what you can get for running one operation, one PvP weekly, one GSF weekly, one planet of heroics..... if the design decision is to limit how fast players gain gear. Then all they need to do is turn those dials right down so everyone gets the exact same. Instead of saying "this type of content participation is more important, you HAVE to do this content, because WE say you HAVE TO".

 

That's something that's really irking me about GC, that BioWare are essentially telling players how they must play the game to their vision or suffer the consequences.

 

That will work for pvp but will surely chase away any remaining raiders.

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Equally, and I'll point this out, how do we know that 5.0 will not include repair bills for PvP, seeing as they're bringing all the gear in line now and removing expertise?

 

We don't know this but it's very unlikely as it will discourage people to play PvP because deaths are much more common in PvP so I find that a very unlikely if not implausible possibility. It would take a great increase in rewards to balance that out.

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Well this is a big point in all MMOs because you never can use full potential of your PvE gear in PvP.

Because you cannot compare Mobs and Bosses with Players that's why in any MMO damage is reduced or everyone gets buffs or more armor, resists etc..

 

However gear is not the problem in SWTOR PvP but lack of content and rewards for PvP objectives ...

 

Just no. This alleged "everyone is equal" system did not exist in Rappelz, or Aion, nor did it exist in Runes of Magic, these just off the top of my head. I literally haven't touched DAoC for a decade, and don't recall anything about the game, password and username included, so I couldn't say. In GWs, the only concession that I recall was that PvP toons were only useable for PvP, and rolled up at cap. I don't recall if anything else applied.

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Sure it will. However it's not the only thing that matters. The other thing that matters is the rate you're acquiring it. As far as i remember from the stream there will be increased cxp gain from some highlighted activity and also from the DvL bosses that spawn. All the talk about rate of 1 rank/hour is just good intentions. I've seen the same system in ESO with veteran ranks where people were grinding the fastest source of exp for hours. I'm positive that there will be some activity that gives biggest amount of cxp/hour which will be farmed 24/7. It's all speculation of course

 

I'm not so sure. I can't guage the interest of the PvP community to do HM/NiM content for a rather temporary benefit in PvP. Also don't forget that while you do this you're not actually PvP'ing, so I'm not saying it's impossible but I would find it surprising.

 

Unranked may be a bit of a mess at first. Not sure if there will be bolster or not, but ranked I think will be safeguarded by the valor rank requirement that PvE'ers will not get while doing operations and heroics.

 

All depends on the balancing of the point gain of course but they mentioned that the fastest ways were HM/NiM content and ranked, so all you PvP gods with valor rankings can go crazy there. I really don't believe there will be that need to go do ops to keep up.

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I'm not so sure. I can't guage the interest of the PvP community to do HM/NiM content for a rather temporary benefit in PvP. Also don't forget that while you do this you're not actually PvP'ing, so I'm not saying it's impossible but I would find it surprising.

 

Unranked may be a bit of a mess at first. Not sure if there will be bolster or not, but ranked I think will be safeguarded by the valor rank requirement that PvE'ers will not get while doing operations and heroics.

 

All depends on the balancing of the point gain of course but they mentioned that the fastest ways were HM/NiM content and ranked, so all you PvP gods with valor rankings can go crazy there. I really don't believe there will be that need to go do ops to keep up.

 

I'm not participating in ranked but as far as i know it pops very slowly even on high pop servers. One other point - not all players have the same free time to play the game so someone who plays 2-3 hours/evening will surely stay behind someone that plays 10+ hours gearwise if the cap is really high.

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Just no.

 

Just yes.

 

DAOC has Realm points to buy better skills even with impact to PvE ...

ESO has Alliance Points to buy stuff for PvP etc.. and many alternatives to PvE.

 

SWTOR has basically nothing to offer in PvP and that's why it's barely played.

Edited by KnightOfTython
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"You" however, have the opportunity to do just that, go out and make a million credits, the same way others are doing it. How am I supposed to compete in a Ranked WZ since I have never set foot in one? The difference here? I chose to ignore PvP since I see it as pointless. There is no risk, and woo, PvE rewards. I can get those from PvE, mostly, w/out having to deal with the atypical PvP community. To wit: I should get free stuff, since I don't want to PvE.

 

That's not what I'm saying, have I said anywhere "I want free stuff"? I'm quite happy running content that I enjoy with the gear progression as it stands now. The problem occurs at the start of 5.0 where you'll have players in 208 PvP gear, probably ending up going against better geared players (not better skilled, just better geared).

 

That's an issue that remains to be addressed, players who run one type of content shouldn't be forced or coerced by a step change in the direction of gearing within this game to run other content. If a player chooses to run one type of content in preference to another type of content then they should be put on equal footing at the start of 5.0. Everyone, not just PvP players, PvE players, Casuals, everyone.

 

I'd be quite happy with a table change of the gear happening when they remove expertise from the game, 204 changed into 216 and 208 changed into 220 (that last few levels up to 224 I can contend with the difference by experience in PvP). Heck, BioWare could just set up a mail and send players a full set of 224 gear to kick 5.0 off.

 

It's down to BioWare to mitigate these issues, it isn't down to players to have to mitigate them. Otherwise it's poor game design.

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Just yes.

 

DAOC has Realm points to buy better skills even with impact to PvE ...

ESO has Alliance Points to buy stuff for PvP etc.. and many alternatives to PvE.

 

SWTOR has basically nothing to provide for PvP and that's why it's barely played.

 

I don't play PvP here because it's pointless. "YAY, let's all get in a WZ and get a mount, that we can't use in WZs". That's been PvP here since I got here. Conquests was another area where I thought they could save PvP, but they totally dropped the ball on that too.

 

However, what bolsters are these games providing to keep people in PvP? Are level 10 characters keeping pace with toons that are one level under the cap? No? I wonder, why is that? Aion has AP, to buy Abyss rated gear, that has PvP stats, but guess what? That gear has tiers, and if you're not changing it out, you may as well be in PvE gear at cap, trying to PvP in a lvl 30 set.

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I'm not participating in ranked but as far as i know it pops very slowly even on high pop servers. One other point - not all players have the same free time to play the game so someone who plays 2-3 hours/evening will surely stay behind someone that plays 10+ hours gearwise if the cap is really high.

 

Well I suppose ranked popping slowly is something they are seeking to rememdy with this. I can equally tell you that the raiding community is a lot smaller as well than it used to be.

 

In the end people who play less will always run behind on others. It wouldn't be fair to those who do put in the time otherwise. But the tiers are fixed and expertise is out. All in all it may take longer to get gear together than before but I still think the differences will be less significant and will phase out over time.

 

What you fear might be the case in the first month or two but then most people will have gotten some gear together.

 

I do still think gear has no place in pvp at all but it is an MMO still so it's hard to imagine MMO PvP without gear. Possible of course but people like to have some sense of progression I guess.

 

Time will tell, I'm not saying that what you fear might not happen but people always find it easier to believe what they fear than what they hope.

Edited by Tsillah
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Well I suppose ranked popping slowly is something they are seeking to rememdy with this. I can equally tell you that the raiding community is a lot smaller as well than it used to be.

 

In the end people who play less will always run behind on others. It wouldn't be fair to those who do put in the time otherwise. But the tiers are fixed and expertise is out. All in all it may take longer to get gear together than before but I still think the differences will be less significant and will phase out over time.

 

What you fear might be the case in the first month or two but then most people will have gotten some gear together.

 

I do still think gear has no place in pvp at all but it is an MMO still so it's hard to imagine MMO PvP without gear. Possible of course but people like to have some sense of progression I guess.

 

Time will tell, I'm not saying that what you fear might not happen but people always find it easier to believe what they fear than what they hope.

 

You're not taking into account the amount of alts people have. After the first month when people have geared themselves gearing an alt is probably going to be very painful.

Edited by Tsetso
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