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Why Arcann and Senya must die for the good of the Story


Costello

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With our inability to kill Arcann and Senya at the end of Chapter 16, it seems certain they will make a re-appearance in KofET. As we were not able to conclude our epic battle against Arcann in a decisive way this had lead me to believe that it has been set up to tell the Arcann redemption story, through the love of his mother he could be redeemed. I.e. in some ways a flip of the Vader Story where through the love of his son he was redeemed. However the more I think on this the more ridiculous this would make the story.

 

First off Arcann is a war criminal, if you take his actions in the Galactic War to be outside the scope of this he has still used the fleet and star fortresses to bombard civilians killing women, children, pregnant mothers, kittens etc. There is almost no one that would be able to forgive what he has done. He has order his own troops to kill the other half, wiped out the scions, held the galaxy to ransom, the list is far more extensive and the sufering caused would be so wide spread as his demanding of tributes no doubt has caused starvation and people not getting the correct medical care etc etc. He is the number one bad in the galaxy and has been for 5 years. So this is going to lead to problems.

 

First the outlander has no authority to pardon him for his crimes. Yes the outlander can forgive him for the carbonite nap, for trying to kill him and his allies, for the loss of his love interest (who has not returned). What they can't pardon him for his the war crimes committed while they were sleeping or done to worlds and people the outlander has nothing to do with. Now he doesn't have to be the one to kill Arcann but he can't say all is right you can go free.

 

Should the outlander do so he would have a revolt on his hands, everyone that signed up to the alliance to see Arcann brought to justice would feel betrayed (rightfully so) and in the eyes of the galaxy the outlander would be condoning Arcann's actions as alright as long as he says sorry. The military would rebel that instant. 'Yeah you told me to go into battle and risk my life, but you know what why should I risk my life to bring down Vaylin your only going to set her free if we do defeat her. Worse yet you want me to go kill a bunch of soliders just doing their duty and the person ordering it you are going to pardon. Screw you Outlander!'

 

Morally it is even worse, if the precedent is set by the outlander that you can do whatever you want but when your beaten and lose your forces you say oh I did bad, no one would have any respect for the Outlander. People can steal from you, try to murder you, imprison you for 5 years and as long as they say they are sorry its fine. And they don't even have to say it till you have them beaten. I steal from you and if I get away with it I'm better off, if I get caught all I have to say is I'm sorry and you will forgive me. How could you not you have forgiven a war criminal for you to discipline any of your troops would suggest what they did was worse that what Arcann has done....

 

Which is also why Senya has to die. She has protected the big bad, she betrayed you and saved the person that has caused unimaginable suffering through out the galaxy. She threaterned to kill Kalyio if her destraction on Zakuul caused harm to the people yet Arcann who has caused the deaths of Billions as well as half her fellow Knights she sees no problem with because his sorry? Unless the Outlander puts her to death he once again loses any control over his troops. How can you discipline anyone for anything if you forgive treason and betrayal.

 

So in short should Arcann or Senya be allowed to live the Alliance would lose the support of anyone that had been harmed by Zakuul or Arcann, anyone that believed that Justice had to be served and control of any of your forces who realize they are fighting and killing soldiers just so the people responsible can be allowed to live and pardoned because they are sorry they lost. So unless the writing team wish to turn the story into some kiddies fan fiction where saying your sorry makes everything alright, I think it was a mistaken not to offer closure in Chapter 16 with the death Arcann and Senya. Any redemption story line would just have such a detrimental effect on the alliance that the Outlander wouldn't end up in a Galactic Command Situation at the End of Chapter 9 of KotET

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It wouldn't be Star Wars if the angry masked bad guy wasn't redeemed by love.

 

In any case, I have no doubt they will have the story open and split between those that kill Arcann and Senya, and those that do not.

 

More than that, if Arcann offers a genuine turn towards good... why shouldn't we accept that? He may never be able to atone for his crimes, but is death the best answer? Is it the correct answer? These are questions others have to answer for themselves.

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A fair argument. I've always had a thing for Arcann, so I believe he should be offered the chance to try and atone for some of his crimes rather than simply die. Whether he accepts such an offer is another question. It would be an extremely divisive decision yes...but from my perspective Arcann was never the real enemy.

 

I have the suspicion that Senya will die anyway at Vaylin's hand in some sort of ultra-emotional scene, but again I've always had soft spot for her.

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Which is also why Senya has to die. She has protected the big bad, she betrayed you and saved the person that has caused unimaginable suffering through out the galaxy.

 

What is it with so many people in this game having a huge murderbon*r? Seriously, prsions and such exist in Star Wars. No need to violently kill everyone that did bad things or just did something that can be vaguely considered some sort of betrayal.

Ironically if your Outlander is either Imperial (light or dark), a jedi knight (wo goes full darkside for some time regardless) or another darksided Republic caracter they have done undeniably worse things than Senya ever did and probably comitted dozens of war crimes and destroyed the lives of thousands upon thousands of peole as well. Whenever a thread like this comes up I can't help but imagine the outlander saying things like this to his/her alliance:

 

"As a loyal imperial Sith lord I ruthlessly killed settlers on Taris and then made sure that the planet stayed a toxic wasteland forever. But it's fine I'm the alliance commander now."

"Yes I also stalked my former wife Jaesa Wilsaam, killed and tortured all her friends and family and then phsychologically tortured her and physically beat her up until she completely snapped and became an insane broken husk of a human being. But, hey the s*x I had with the deranged psychopathic shadow of her former self that was left of her was great. And I'm the alliance commander of course so I should be forgiven."

"What's this? Senya saved her defeated and utterly politically depowered sons live after helping me dethrone him? Death sentence! Respect muh Authority!!!!!"

 

Also Arcann isn't even the big bad. He is as fittingly stated by the real big bad: "A serpent that fancies itself a dragon." The real big bad is actually the Outlander her/himself right now. Or to be more specific s/he is the current host of the big bad.

Edited by fovzwk
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It wouldn't be Star Wars if the angry masked bad guy wasn't redeemed by love.

 

In any case, I have no doubt they will have the story open and split between those that kill Arcann and Senya, and those that do not.

 

More than that, if Arcann offers a genuine turn towards good... why shouldn't we accept that? He may never be able to atone for his crimes, but is death the best answer? Is it the correct answer? These are questions others have to answer for themselves.

 

Why should he get to live after depriving millions, if not billions, of people that same chance? Most of them not even being combatants, just people living their lives on planets he decided to eradicate as a petty '**** you' to the Outlander.

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Why should he get to live after depriving millions, if not billions, of people that same chance? Most of them not even being combatants, just people living their lives on planets he decided to eradicate as a petty '**** you' to the Outlander.

 

That question was answered.

 

No matter which class you played, if it wasn't Light Side Republic, you did bad things to innocent people. :p

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That question was answered.

 

No matter which class you played, if it wasn't Light Side Republic, you did bad things to innocent people. :p

 

So far as I know none of the player characters are ever given the opportunity to do anything even remotely on the scale of eradicating the populations of 5 planets just to spite someone. Closest I can think of any Starwars PC ever coming close was the Jedi Exile having the option to screw over a bunch of planets by taking out Peragus.

Edited by dcaleb
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I disagree, respectfully.

First, the declaration that Senya "betrayed" the Outlander is stupid. It depends on the situation. My main JK is a guy who tried to redeem Vitiate at the end of his class story. So when Senya contacted him, telling him she wanted to try and redeem Arcann, he agreed. No betrayal here. Whether she succeeds or fails to turn him to the light side again is not the question.

The betrayal is subjective. My JK was always open about willing to give Arcann a chance.

 

Same goes for the "Arcann must die" mentality. I'd much rather have him live on and be forced to try and make amends for the rest of his life rather than stab him in the face and dance on his corpse. Or lock him up for life, powerless and tortured by what he has done or by the fact he can't do anything anymore. And if he is to turn back to the Light, I'll gladly take his help against Senya and his daddy. Helping to stop the mad Empress of Zakuul and the man who's eaten at least two worlds, caused five massive wars (Mandalorian, Revan's Sith, first return of the Sith Empire, Second one and by his manipulation of Arcann he also is responsible of the Eternal Fleet's onslaught.) and has been trying to wipe out all life in the galaxy, well, that counts for something in my book.

 

As such, if KotET gives us a choice, I know my JK will spare them both, while my DS5 SI will happily skewer them and other characters will decide depending on how important Senya's reason are to them. (Example: My (female) Smuggler has a very strong sense of family, I always played her like that. So when Chapter 16 comes around, she won't shoot Senya. Even though she thinks Arcann is probably too far gone, she believes Senya was a staunch ally during the preceding fights and deserves a chance to try. If she fails, my Smuggler will hunt and kill Arcann. But not Senya if she survived. Because she did what she thought was right. And coming from a character who's done only that since spawning on Ord Mantell, it would be extremely hypocritical to kill her for that.)

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So far as I know none of the player characters are ever given the opportunity to do anything even remotely on the scale of eradicating the populations of 5 planets just to spite someone. Closest I can think of any Starwars PC ever coming close was the Jedi Exile having the option to screw over a bunch of planets by taking out Peragus.

 

*cough* Releasing the world razor for some cheap green pants *cough*

*cough* Destroying Makeb to spite the Archon *cough*

*cough* Approving of the use of that Balmorran superweapon which if used would turn Balmorra into a lifeless wasteland*cough*

*cough* Betraying the Voss mystic and siding with Sel Makor, the evil entity that wants to devour all life on Voss, instead*cough*

And of course the crime only the worst of beings yould commit: killing 100 Jawas while partying with the party Jawa.

Edited by fovzwk
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I don't begrudge Senya for being a mom and trying to straighten out her son. Honestly, though, the only reason my main, light side Warrior let Arcann leave at the end of Chapter 16 was because he was under Senya's protection. If it had been Knights, he would have been toast.

 

I don't Senya should necessarily be executed, unless she's endangered the Alliance other than saving her son(i.e., pulling a Kaliyo on us, and she doesn't seem like that at all).

 

Arcann will have to make a good argument for his redemption. Still, it could always be a punishment like "you have to go help refugees" or something similar.

 

For Vaylin, she would have to agree to healing, probably from the Voss or the Jedi.

 

Keep in mind in other parts of the pre KOTFE story

 

A Jedi Knight can choose to forgive, if not seek to redeem, the abomination that controlled them and ate one planet, later two, in addition to starting wars.

Republic players can choose to send Dread Master Calphayus to the Jedi to get healing at the end of the Oricon story. Whatever Arcann and Vaylin have done more likely than not pales in comparison to what the Dread Masters did, and the six did that for at least one thousand years. They specialized in Force terror and tortured Revan for three hundred years.

 

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If you want to kill them your choice but I would rather chose what my characters would do based on my characters actions and not based on what you would do.

 

My jedi would not kill them without talking to them and most likely would not kill either of them if there was a chance to redeem them.

 

I get the reason why some want to but give other players the same respect and don't say they have to die for the good of the story just because you want them dead.

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Only gotten through that with my Counselor and the Knight I made only for the DvL. Both let them live. Not sure what my others will do yet, though my Inquisitor will likely not fire on the ship either, the other just may.

 

I figure my Counselor (my main) knew going in Senya was most importantly, Arcann's mother. Just like with how she couldn't take down Vaylin, she wasn't going to take down Arcann.

 

Typical parent fiction (and RL really) "My murderous child is precious to me and the world!" Only difference is, in fiction it plays a little better than in RL where you want to slap the parent even more :p

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*cough* Releasing the world razor for some cheap green pants *cough*

*cough* Destroying Makeb to spite the Archon *cough*

*cough* Approving of the use of that Balmorran superweapon which if used would turn Balmorra into a lifeless wasteland*cough*

*cough* Betraying the Voss mystic and siding with Sel Makor, the evil entity that wants to devour all life on Voss, instead*cough*

And of course the crime only the worst of beings yould commit: killing 100 Jawas while partying with the party Jawa.

 

Wait, who can destroy Makeb to spite some fat slug? It has been forever since I did Rise of the Hutt Cartel.

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Wait, who can destroy Makeb to spite some fat slug? It has been forever since I did Rise of the Hutt Cartel.

 

In the Imperial story, at the end, your character gets the option to cause groundquakes at regulator locations killing the Hutt forces en masse. You don't destroy the ENTIRE planet but you can wipe out a few mesas for definate. Of course you also have the option NOT to do this, but I think most Dark Siders will take the option to wreck a few Regulator occupied mesas.

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My issue with this whole redemption idea is when do we say enough is enough? Where exactly do we draw the line and say this is it, no further?

 

SCORPIO betrayed us and nearly got everybody killed as a result of her games, I don't see anybody calling for her redemption so why does SCORPIO not deserve redemption and Arcann does?

 

Furthermore, I can see Senya's conundrum, she's a mother and parents are sometimes good at turning blind eyes to the sins of their offspring, but even here, there has to be a line. Senya may be able to forgive Arcann killing all the Scions, killing half the knights, killing 5 planets, trying to kill his own father, strangleholding the Galaxy towards rack and ruin... But I can't understand how she can forgive Arcann for killing Thexan? Thexan was her son, and Arcann killed his own brother and her son. "He didn't mean to" and "he was really sorry about that." Well... so what? The fact that he was prepared to kill his family in the first place just speaks what a worthless mass of carbon he is. Thexan was the one who stood by Arcann all those years and was loyal to him. Furthermore, Valkorion didn't seem to give a damn that Thexan got killed and Arcann was REWARDED for that by becoming next in line for the throne, which he took as soon as he possibly could.

 

Senya doesn't know where the line is far as I am concerned or she doesn't want to, Arcann has crossed every line there is. And Senya, in my opinion, and by the opinions of many others Im sure, by HELPING him to escape from you, is by default an accomplice to ALL his crimes. I can understand her not wanting him to be killed he's her son, but he needed to be locked up at the very least. Personally, I think he's too dangerous to live and he has proved this so many many times, he's the Emperor's son and the potential for Vitiate 2.0 is there... Vaylin the same.

 

So to me at least, Senya and Arcann have to pay. The slate may be wiped clean for Senya, but to my PC's the slate has just been added to and my "To do" list just got a bit bigger.

 

I know there are arguments about what the Imp characters have done, which are pretty atrocious but we'll never know how the Republic may have tried to bring you down, death, capture etc... because the class stories were discontinued. Would have been nice to see if the Wrath had got captured or, Nox was the subject of an assassination attempt etc...

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That bothered me as well OP! In addition what burns my biscuits is that I can understand why Senya wouldn't allow you to kill her son even after all he has done because she is acting on that irrational and unbreakable "mother's love" but the fact that she won't even allow us to IMPRISON Arcann blows my mind. He is even worse than his father when it comes to war crimes, he's oppressed and killed his OWN people, forced his OWN knights to kill each other, killed his OWN brother and potentially his father, and bombed not one but five worlds to dust and Senya just wants to take him on vacation and tell him not to be a bad little boy anymore? *** he is a huge danger to the galaxy and whether dead or imprisoned can NOT be allowed to run around free!
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For my character, it all depends on how he is when we're trying to decide if he lives or dies. If Arcann is still the same enraged, arrogant, child still trying to please daddy - To the saber he falls. But if he is legitimatly apauled by what he's done, co-operates and wants to realise the error of his ways. Yeah, I could use the spawn of Vitiate as an ally while he seeks to atone for his actions by saving everybody else.

 

And yeah, this is basically Darth Vader all over again. Just wait until you get Arcann to Tatooine :D

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I can only imagine people who hate Arcann will be mad when they see a bunch of people running around with him as a companion when the expansion drops.

 

A post on the DevTracker said that Arcann will be a companion in the upcoming 5.0, but ONLY if you chose to not attack him in any of your previous interactions in the KotFE story.

 

From former emperor of a vast empire to a mere sidekick companion... that's kind of humiliating in a way.

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Furthermore, I can see Senya's conundrum, she's a mother and parents are sometimes good at turning blind eyes to the sins of their offspring, but even here, there has to be a line. Senya may be able to forgive Arcann killing all the Scions, killing half the knights, killing 5 planets, trying to kill his own father, strangleholding the Galaxy towards rack and ruin... But I can't understand how she can forgive Arcann for killing Thexan? Thexan was her son, and Arcann killed his own brother and her son. "He didn't mean to" and "he was really sorry about that." Well... so what? The fact that he was prepared to kill his family in the first place just speaks what a worthless mass of carbon he is. Thexan was the one who stood by Arcann all those years and was loyal to him. Furthermore, Valkorion didn't seem to give a damn that Thexan got killed and Arcann was REWARDED for that by becoming next in line for the throne, which he took as soon as he possibly could.

 

In fairness, Thexan got killed when he got in the way of Arcann attacking someone else who totally had it coming (Valkorion) and wasn't his actual target. Unlike all those innocent civilians and loyal Knights who were punished for failures they couldn't have possibly prevented thanks to being stationed at completely different places.

Edited by dcaleb
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In fairness, Thexan got killed when he got in the way of Arcann attacking someone else who totally had it coming (Valkorion) and wasn't his actual target. Unlike all those innocent civilians and loyal Knights who were punished for failures they couldn't have possibly prevented thanks to being stationed at completely different places.

 

Thexan prevented his Emperor and father, from being Assassinated or at least, appeared to. Thexan was doing what any loyal (no matter how misguided or misplaced) son would do for his father.

 

I actually feel really sorry for Thexan, he served his father without question and with dignity and when he got slain, Valkorion just stepped over his body and carried on like nothing had happened.

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It wouldn't be Star Wars if the angry masked bad guy wasn't redeemed by love.

 

In any case, I have no doubt they will have the story open and split between those that kill Arcann and Senya, and those that do not.

 

More than that, if Arcann offers a genuine turn towards good... why shouldn't we accept that? He may never be able to atone for his crimes, but is death the best answer? Is it the correct answer? These are questions others have to answer for themselves.

 

First of all here I assume you are talking about Darth Vader, which is the most visable example of this, however we should remember that he did in fact die, so we never got to see what would have happend had he not, which I have no doubt would be a trial and very posibly and execution.

 

Secondly to all the people saying it will be our choice, do you honestly belive that will be the case? with the direction the story telling is going in this game do you honestly belive that something so major will be up to the player? then what if they make another expansion after this? how will the one story model make sense if half the players left him alive and the other did not? it would create too much of a difference, especially considering how the people around you would react.

 

No what is going to happen if we look at how the story has been going so far is that we are going to be presented with Arcann and then something will happen that force our character to ally with him if we wish to or not. And as for all those who think he should be redeemed hell no, at the very least he should be put in a jail cell for what he has done, one can debate the value of killing him but he sure as hell shouldent be allowed to just be let go because he supposedly has a change of heart. Now I personally belive we should kill him, we should have been able to do that when we fought him the first time, especially since we were given the option twice, since we did not get to, I suspect that we will infact be forced to ally with him in the future cause it is clear to me that is the story they want to tell weather or not it makes any sense at all

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First of all here I assume you are talking about Darth Vader, which is the most visable example of this, however we should remember that he did in fact die, so we never got to see what would have happend had he not, which I have no doubt would be a trial and very posibly and execution.

 

Secondly to all the people saying it will be our choice, do you honestly belive that will be the case? with the direction the story telling is going in this game do you honestly belive that something so major will be up to the player? then what if they make another expansion after this? how will the one story model make sense if half the players left him alive and the other did not? it would create too much of a difference, especially considering how the people around you would react.

 

No what is going to happen if we look at how the story has been going so far is that we are going to be presented with Arcann and then something will happen that force our character to ally with him if we wish to or not. And as for all those who think he should be redeemed hell no, at the very least he should be put in a jail cell for what he has done, one can debate the value of killing him but he sure as hell shouldent be allowed to just be let go because he supposedly has a change of heart. Now I personally belive we should kill him, we should have been able to do that when we fought him the first time, especially since we were given the option twice, since we did not get to, I suspect that we will infact be forced to ally with him in the future cause it is clear to me that is the story they want to tell weather or not it makes any sense at all

 

Yes, but Redemption is a main tenet of Star Wars.

 

In any case, as to your second point: I one hundred percent believe that the option will be narrowed down to this: Kill Arcann and Senya, or spare them.

 

In fact, I will go on record claiming this. You can all point back to my post on Nov 29th to see if I'm right.

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  • 2 months later...
Yes, but Redemption is a main tenet of Star Wars.

 

In any case, as to your second point: I one hundred percent believe that the option will be narrowed down to this: Kill Arcann and Senya, or spare them.

 

In fact, I will go on record claiming this. You can all point back to my post on Nov 29th to see if I'm right.

 

A month late, but hey.

 

I TOTALLY CALLED IT. :D

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