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As the person who created the kite strat, It's for the best that it's getting removed. On the other hand though, it's funny to see the hypocrisy in this thread. People acting like they didn't abuse the red exploit and then defend its usage on the progression thread 9 months ago :rak_02: Edited by RussellRichter
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As the person who created the kite strat, It's for the best that it's getting removed. On the other hand though, it's funny to see the hypocrisy in this thread. People acting like they didn't abuse the red exploit and then defend its usage on the progression thread 9 months ago :rak_02:

 

Well, thanks for the reply. Could you explain to me why you consider that it's for the best? It's a serious question, i really can't see a reason for it. It doesn't seem to be an exploit of the fight, sure it makes it easier, but not in a sense that feels like cheating (at least for me). Are you on Jaydenz team btw?

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Well, thanks for the reply. Could you explain to me why you consider that it's for the best? It's a serious question, i really can't see a reason for it. It doesn't seem to be an exploit of the fight, sure it makes it easier, but not in a sense that feels like cheating (at least for me). Are you on Jaydenz team btw?

 

It depends how people define exploit. Everyone seems to have their own definition and people pick and choose which cheese is fine to them and which isn't. There are double standards everywhere in these discussions. Is kiting the boss something the developers intended to be an option? clearly not as they are removing the possibility. Does kiting take advantage of any bugs/glitches? No.

 

I think the worst part about kiting is that it removes the output check entirely from DPS due to the boss having 15% increased damage taken for the majority of the encounter. For example, last night I played my lethality operative and healed almost the entire time and we never came close to the enrage.

 

While it is nice having different ways to do the boss, I don't think kiting was a healthy solution. My bigger complaint is that Bioware suddenly cares about the state of the operation 10 months into the tier. The entire operation is the most cheesable one they have ever released. Things should have been fixed ages ago. What was the point of an extended PTS cycle if they never fixed anything we reported?

 

And yes, I am on a team with Jaydenz on SS, but it was Origin on SF that created the kiting strat

Edited by RussellRichter
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although i welcome the removal as the fight becomes a bit more fun when there are dps requirements as well as some mechanical execution needed, i concur its weird this is happening so late into the tier. Its similar to Izax where you could rebounder the saturation, reflect the anchors, and triple-click in p3, which was removed fairly quickly as devs agreed with most of the community that it reduced too much of the difficulty, same with kite strat, it removes any dps requirement, any need to have tanks learn battery and makes the fight really easy, i don't think anyone disagrees with that.

 

that said, better late than never

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I see. Yeah, i can understand your pov on this and it actually makes a bit more sense now. But i still don't understand why BW is worried that the apex fight is easier and they want to make it harder, but still keeps nim crystals in game and allows us to do some nim fights with only one tank. You see, for each reason we find for changing the apex fight, i can see it happening in other fights in other ways and i'm like, this isn't fair, they decided they didn't like this one specific way of doing a fight, but pretend a lot of other things that are basically the same stays on the game. I'm not against crystals or using 1 tank on some fights to remove dps checks. It's about double standards and taking time/effort to fix things that were not an issue but we still have some bugs that are a big issue imo. Like, doing dp nim timed and you bump into more bugs on Calph that will make you wipe and miss timed. And players have to be creative to work with those bugs and find a solution when a fix would solve the problem. I've actually seen a team missing timed cause after one wipe Calph decided he was never gonna stop casting his enrage thing, so they had to go out, reset phase and timer was gone. They did get it eventually, but you see my point? Sure, if they wanna fix or change apex, go for it. But fix other stuff also, don't stop on apex. Also, if it's about the extra dmg he gets when he has 20 stacks, would make more sense to just remove this debuff from him. Edited by csilvajonas
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As the person who created the kite strat, It's for the best that it's getting removed. On the other hand though, it's funny to see the hypocrisy in this thread. People acting like they didn't abuse the red exploit and then defend its usage on the progression thread 9 months ago :rak_02:

Well, "thank you" dude. I am cursing that day when i decided to base our prog on your kiting strats. You and Jaydenz youtube video should have add a Note that this strat MIGHT be fixed soon as a bug/exploit :confused: Literally WASTED few months to progging it like that and we didnt killed it. Now we have TO REVERSE it :confused: Thank you

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Well, "thank you" dude. I am cursing that day when i decided to base our prog on your kiting strats. You and Jaydenz youtube video should have add a Note that this strat MIGHT be fixed soon as a bug/exploit :confused: Literally WASTED few months to progging it like that and we didnt killed it. Now we have TO REVERSE it :confused: Thank you

 

You should have just kited the patch then

Edited by RussellRichter
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Anyone knows why they are going to update the Apex vanguard fight to make him angry if you do the kiting strategy? It's like punishing players for being creative, it's not an exploit as far as i can see, just because people are not doing the fight exactly how devs thought it should be done, they're gonna add a new enrage or soft enrage to a boss that already has at least 3 of them?

 

Hi csilvajonas,

 

That strategy was allowing players to bypass intended mechanics altogether, not allowing them to interact with parts of the encounter, and trivializing the fight in an unintended way. We look for ways to balance the game out and ensure that it is being experienced as it should.

 

I did see the other thread you had started, and I encourage you to consolidate conversations. I also do recommend keeping titles of threads related to the conversation you want to start as that helps forum users understand the context/content of said threads. You can message me either a direct question or provide a link to the original thread you created, and I'll do my best to provide an answer.

 

Jackie

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Hi csilvajonas,

 

That strategy was allowing players to bypass intended mechanics altogether, not allowing them to interact with parts of the encounter, and trivializing the fight in an unintended way. We look for ways to balance the game out and ensure that it is being experienced as it should.

 

I did see the other thread you had started, and I encourage you to consolidate conversations. I also do recommend keeping titles of threads related to the conversation you want to start as that helps forum users understand the context/content of said threads. You can message me either a direct question or provide a link to the original thread you created, and I'll do my best to provide an answer.

 

Jackie

 

Jackie,

 

I am for what you are doing, but if you are doing this to the Apex Vanguard, YOU GUYS should do it to all bosses then. What I mean by this is people kite Eyeless to skip green circles and the Purple Crush circle. These are intended mechanics to, but people skip them by kiting the boss, I personally don't kite the boss because its easy enough to kill him with his mechanics, but there is about 80% of the server that likes to run around in a circle kiting him and running after him and trying to do their DPS to him. Should you not do the same thing to Eyeless then? Please answer this, Jackie. Thank you.

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Jackie,

 

I am for what you are doing, but if you are doing this to the Apex Vanguard, YOU GUYS should do it to all bosses then. What I mean by this is people kite Eyeless to skip green circles and the Purple Crush circle. These are intended mechanics to, but people skip them by kiting the boss, I personally don't kite the boss because its easy enough to kill him with his mechanics, but there is about 80% of the server that likes to run around in a circle kiting him and running after him and trying to do their DPS to him. Should you not do the same thing to Eyeless then? Please answer this, Jackie. Thank you.

 

you compare apex to eyeless... okay... seems legit

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you compare apex to eyeless... okay... seems legit

 

He doesn't want to compare Apex to Eyeless (and you know this), but rather show the hypocrisy of removing a cheese strat from a boss and arguing it's not an intended mechanic, but not doing the same to other bosses.

 

He's factually correct and everybody should agree, that it's kinda hypocritical, since there are A LOT of cheese strats for other bosses and even straight up exploits that weren't touched in months/years.

It shouldn't matter whether or not Apex is the current endboss, this mindset should either be applied to all bosses or none and if they are planning on doing so, they should atleast acknowledge it.

 

Personally, I couldn't care less which way they go, but they should give us clear communications on how they're planning to move forewards.

Edited by agnahim
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He doesn't want to compare Apex to Eyeless (and you know this), but rather show the hypocrisy of removing a cheese strat from a boss and arguing it's not an intended mechanic, but not doing the same to other bosses.

 

He's factually correct and everybody should agree, that it's kinda hypocritical, since there are A LOT of cheese strats for other bosses and even straight up exploits that weren't touched in months/years.

It shouldn't matter whether or not Apex is the current endboss, this mindset should either be applied to all bosses or none and if they are planning on doing so, they should atleast acknowledge it.

 

Personally, I couldn't care less which way they go, but they should give us clear communications on how they're planning to move forewards.

 

think, honestly, that the big thing is that not a large number of players has/have complained or reported it as a bug, unintentional mechanic, or exploit to the developers while the apex kite strat has been reported both by players using it and those who do not

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Hi csilvajonas,

 

That strategy was allowing players to bypass intended mechanics altogether, not allowing them to interact with parts of the encounter, and trivializing the fight in an unintended way. We look for ways to balance the game out and ensure that it is being experienced as it should.

 

I did see the other thread you had started, and I encourage you to consolidate conversations. I also do recommend keeping titles of threads related to the conversation you want to start as that helps forum users understand the context/content of said threads. You can message me either a direct question or provide a link to the original thread you created, and I'll do my best to provide an answer.

 

Jackie

 

Jackie, thanks a lot for the reply. I understand now why the update is happening. I hope it doesn't stop with Apex, as you can see from my previous posts, i see a lot of problems (bugs) on operations that are a big issue for me (and some other players on the raiding teams i know) like dread palace nim bugs (for real, Calphayus has so many bugs that you can fail a timed run just because of him). I do hope that Bioware takes some time to look back at old operations the same way you've been doing with dxun. The reason i was so frustrated with the apex update was mainly because i felt Dxun got a lot more attention than old operations we love playing, and we still have to deal with bugs that most of us just gave up, because we don't believe they will get a fix from devs team (i speak for myself and also based on what 90% of raiding teams i know talk). Imagine the feeling of failing a timed run by 2 minutes because you had to wipe on a boss after it buged (and not a new bug, but something you ask people about and they just say "oh, that's pretty normal on that fight"). At least for me, this is sad, when players just learn to deal with a bug cause they're tired of reporting it so they just give up. Here is a video of what i mean

 

 

also, buff story mode and veteran mode operations please, there is probably another post about this somewhere, but it's just sad for me, i was playing gods from the machine when it first came, it was a great operation even on story mode, a great challenge. Now you can do all story mode operations with less than 8 players, i don't think that's how the fights were designed to be, but story mode is a joke and hard mode just feels like old story mode (nim is fine by me, a good challenge). What bothers me is the inconsistency of updates operations get.

Edited by csilvajonas
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Hi csilvajonas,

 

That strategy was allowing players to bypass intended mechanics altogether, not allowing them to interact with parts of the encounter, and trivializing the fight in an unintended way. We look for ways to balance the game out and ensure that it is being experienced as it should.

 

I did see the other thread you had started, and I encourage you to consolidate conversations. I also do recommend keeping titles of threads related to the conversation you want to start as that helps forum users understand the context/content of said threads. You can message me either a direct question or provide a link to the original thread you created, and I'll do my best to provide an answer.

 

Jackie

 

I honestly think this is a bad decision. Having multiple strategies to kill some boss is what makes raiding interesting.. By doing this, you're removing our limited ability to have fun with the game while experimenting with different strategies on different bosses. You trivialized leveling experience to be a complete garbage because of lack of difficulty, please don't streamline the only thing that is keeping some of us in the game, which is raiding. Keep in mind that some of us are paying the sub just to raid as well. If you take our ability to spice up the fights and try different things, you simply ruin the experience for us because we would just do the same stuff over and over, and eventually got bored of it and leave. As it already happened in the past with some of the most experienced raiders.

Edited by DiamondNemke
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Hi csilvajonas,

 

That strategy was allowing players to bypass intended mechanics altogether, not allowing them to interact with parts of the encounter, and trivializing the fight in an unintended way. We look for ways to balance the game out and ensure that it is being experienced as it should.

 

I did see the other thread you had started, and I encourage you to consolidate conversations. I also do recommend keeping titles of threads related to the conversation you want to start as that helps forum users understand the context/content of said threads. You can message me either a direct question or provide a link to the original thread you created, and I'll do my best to provide an answer.

 

Jackie

 

Trivialized is a very interesting word choice. Do you think you could provide a number of players who’ve killed Apex even with the kite strategy in the game for 10 months? My guess is that it’s less than 200. My guess is about 4-5 teams per server (I think mine has 5). And a number of players are on multiple teams. So...I think around 150-200 players. Am I arguing that kite strat didn’t make the fight easier? No, for sure it did. But not sufficiently “trivial” that everyone is out there clearing apex. It’s still pretty much only top tier raid teams that even had a prayer of clearing apex with kite strat. Is it really necessary to make a fight harder that only 200 people have cleared in 10 months?

Edited by AwesomeTacoCat
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I am happy the kiting strat is dead :) good work Bioware! I must say that watching some stream with boss on 30 stacks bombarding the s*** out of main tank and pushing him just 1m forward really looks amazing. Reminds me of wiping on Izax and then your body is pulled back inside blue shield. But in reverse. Looks fun KEKW

 

In my honest opinion, kiting strat was cool for group. Regular non-kiting strat can be fun for DPS who does adds, but for those who tunnel boss its more boring&punishing than Styrak. Such fights are really stressful and not fun. DPS are having same set of mechanics from the start till the end of the fight. Kiting made it more fun (and gave you more numbers) hence it was so loved by the people.

 

But yeah kiting indeed made boss significantly easier than it originally was designed, hence I am happy it is gone. And just like many others, I also wonder why the boss gets changed ~9 month after it made it to live, buuuut better late than never as someone has already put it :)

 

Well, "thank you" dude. I am cursing that day when i decided to base our prog on your kiting strats. You and Jaydenz youtube video should have add a Note that this strat MIGHT be fixed soon as a bug/exploit :confused: Literally WASTED few months to progging it like that and we didnt killed it. Now we have TO REVERSE it :confused: Thank you

 

Feel free to contact me for Apex coaching. Helped couple teams already on regular non-kiting strat.

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Trivialized is a very interesting word choice. Do you think you could provide a number of players who’ve killed Apex even with the kite strategy in the game for 10 months? My guess is that it’s less than 200. My guess is about 4-5 teams per server (I think mine has 5). And a number of players are on multiple teams. So...I think around 150-200 players. Am I arguing that kite strat didn’t make the fight easier? No, for sure it did. But not sufficiently “trivial” that everyone is out there clearing apex. It’s still pretty much only top tier raid teams that even had a prayer of clearing apex with kite strat. Is it really necessary to make a fight harder that only 200 people have cleared in 10 months?

 

The things you're saying make a lot of sense. I hope this thread actually turns into an oportunity for the raiding community to speak about the things we're not happy on this game. I don't think they will go back with the apex update, but there are other things they can do imo to help us.

1 - make at least 1 new operation per year, 2 would be better. We do get bored of doing the same thing over and over and this could solve this problem. I see players who only play the game for raids and they sub when a new one comes and unsub when they get bored of it (which would be a 6 months window). The last ops we got is about to complete 2 years old.

2 - fix old ops bugs

3 - stop acting as if we were all billionaires in game or we all play pvp. This was a problem since 248 augments came in 5.x, doing 1 nim operation you could get 5 mats and split them between 8 players, you would get 1 or 2. But you could farm team ranked and get 6 mats with each character you had. I don't think pvp players were happy with team ranked farmers. And now you just make a new augment that is just making some people rich. So far i've only seen one player using a full augmented character with the new augments. Is this what devs intended? For real, why don't you just give us a weekly for completing 5 ops and give the mats? It's like you want pve players to play pvp. Well, most of us don't want to.

4 - Again, buff story mode and veteran mode. People used to say that if you've completed Temple of Sacrifice in veteran mode you were ready to start master mode operations. That's so not true now. Temple of Sacrifice is such a joke you can easily do it with a dwt and 1t, is this how you intended the fight to be? In fact, most veteran modes can be done this way, some of them you can even do with 1 healer. I'll ask again, is this how the fight was intended to be? I don't think so, as they used to be much harder before.

This apex update doesn't really feel like devs care about the raiding community, that's what i'm seeing on discord channels, even if people agree with it, there is a feeling that they don't really care and this decision to update apex was arbitrary, you pick one thing to update, but leave 90% of the problems there

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Trivialized is a very interesting word choice. Do you think you could provide a number of players who’ve killed Apex even with the kite strategy in the game for 10 months? My guess is that it’s less than 200. My guess is about 4-5 teams per server (I think mine has 5). And a number of players are on multiple teams. So...I think around 150-200 players. Am I arguing that kite strat didn’t make the fight easier? No, for sure it did. But not sufficiently “trivial” that everyone is out there clearing apex. It’s still pretty much only top tier raid teams that even had a prayer of clearing apex with kite strat. Is it really necessary to make a fight harder that only 200 people have cleared in 10 months?

 

Exactly what this guy says. The fight is not trivialized at all. It is still tricky to do it because you need to have a specific team composition and still follow 80% of other mechanics, to adjust, as some videos show.

Do I think it is wrong? Absolutely not. I killed the boss with normal tactics, and I say this. 99% of other bosses have some cheese mechanic. Is it wrong? No because you are using your class in a creative way to make the fight easier. Nothing wrong with that. You can still do it normally if you want, but finding new ways to deal with the boss is part of the fun.

The bigger issue is that some opses are so bugged that you can't even play them properly when they decide to bug on you. Some examples are:

 

- TfB tentacles in 2nd phase not showing slam animation (just float in the air)

- Styrak manifestations desyncing all the time, killing the group even if they seem far enough.

- Styrak ghosts bugging, not giving knockback, staying alive after wipe, slowing down people who try to do timed run.

- Invisible Tyrans

- Calphayus constaly murdering people after the wipe, slowing down timed runs

- Completely unbalanced 16m Veteran and Master Modes of some operations, such as Dxun and EC

- Underlurker desyncing most of the time, murdering people because they didn't press space to jump, and sometimes even if they did

 

The list can go on and on with the amount of bugs there are, and you act when someone finds a very legit way to kill the boss in a different and more creative way than you intended. Yes it is easier, but still not easy to do at all. There need to be more washes, more stims, which still require teams to follow the tactics. Just because people don't use flairs, doesn't mean the boss is trivial to kill. Far from it.

I mean I don't personally care about Apex in general, it is by far, one of the worst bosses in the game, but this update is just ridiculous.

It would be better if you focused your efforts to fixing gamebreaking bugs in other opses, rather than doing this. But, that's just my opinion as an active player.

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- Underlurker desyncing most of the time, murdering people because they didn't press space to jump, and sometimes even if they did

.

 

ugh QFE ^ ... i often wonder if i'll ever clear the 16m verson cheevo sometime between now & end of SWTOR :mad:

 

Just be more creative and find another way

 

How the heck do you make your 'sig' so super duper LARGE?!?!?! :confused:

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Just be more creative and find another way KekW

 

Well, what bioware just did is sending us the msg that if we find another way, we'll have to be careful not to make the fight easier. Is it even worth it finding new way of doing ops now? We can try, but we may end up hurting bioware's feelings cause we're not doing things as they intended. It's an update that just seems like they're pretending to care about raiding, I'll believe them when they start fixing what is broken for a long time now, when they scale everything to lvl 75 and stop making augments and crafting materials just to make some players rich, when they start releasing at least one new operation each year (and stop making trash operations like Dxun, its plot is just Jurassic Park with lightsabers, when star wars has such a vast lore). Even though this thread started with me complaining about the Apex update, i don't like dxun. I care about what they're doing with the raiding community, with prioritizing an update when we still have bugs/desyncs that have been there since day 1 on some ops, some great ops, much better than dxun and all of a sudden dxun gets an update, almost a year after its release and the question they will probably never answer is: why not fix the rest? They can blame the pandemic and it would make sense, except we've had those problems since before. So what is the excuse? Also, why they insist on making boring fights like Apex? It's 10 minutes of doing the same thing over and over. Is it even the same team who did Revan? They do make some masterpieces, but wth happens sometimes? At least with the kiting strategy the fight was not so boring.

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IDK what you guys are smoking if you think the devs are going to go back and remove cheeses/kiting/etc from old operations. They can barely churn out one raid every 2 years. The only reason Dxun is being fixed is because it is "current" content -- and was created by the current dev team.

 

If the devs are worried about bugs/exploits/unintendeds in raids, they could go back to the Gods model and release one boss at a time.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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- Underlurker desyncing most of the time, murdering people because they didn't press space to jump, and sometimes even if they did

 

 

jumping is the worst you can do. its a half circle over the cross. if you jump you can miss it.

and also its mostly the tanks fault if it desyncs.

dont run to it.. let it come to you.

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/03/17/positioning-aoe-attacks/

Edited by Opiklo
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Well, what bioware just did is sending us the msg that if we find another way, we'll have to be careful not to make the fight easier. Is it even worth it finding new way of doing ops now? We can try, but we may end up hurting bioware's feelings cause we're not doing things as they intended. It's an update that just seems like they're pretending to care about raiding, I'll believe them when they start fixing what is broken for a long time now, when they scale everything to lvl 75 and stop making augments and crafting materials just to make some players rich, when they start releasing at least one new operation each year (and stop making trash operations like Dxun, its plot is just Jurassic Park with lightsabers, when star wars has such a vast lore). Even though this thread started with me complaining about the Apex update, i don't like dxun. I care about what they're doing with the raiding community, with prioritizing an update when we still have bugs/desyncs that have been there since day 1 on some ops, some great ops, much better than dxun and all of a sudden dxun gets an update, almost a year after its release and the question they will probably never answer is: why not fix the rest? They can blame the pandemic and it would make sense, except we've had those problems since before. So what is the excuse? Also, why they insist on making boring fights like Apex? It's 10 minutes of doing the same thing over and over. Is it even the same team who did Revan? They do make some masterpieces, but wth happens sometimes? At least with the kiting strategy the fight was not so boring.

 

In case you people didn't notice, the boss had a mechanic in burn to avoid kiting, they just added a new one for the entire fight. For a nightmare/master mode fight, you need to make some dps/healing checks and have some brain to follow some mechanics and make your own strat, especially for last boss, making/using flares and keeping track of Darkness Overdrive is also part of the fight. You are telling me that the fight is not boring with kiting strat, and its boring when you are doing mechanics, ok, seems logic.

 

Everybody comes here with random things like, why u changed this instead of that, how about you ask the devs when are they gonna change this and that as well instead of asking why they changed this now.

When people bug the timer they are also creative I guess and game is not boring anymore.

Edited by AlexIonutPlay
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