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Juggernaut Feedback Thread


JackieKo

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  • Dev Post

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Juggernaut.

 

Please answer the following questions:

 

  • Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?
  • If you have feedback on the different discipline, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  • As you’re beginning from level 1, do you feel you have enough abilities that keep gameplay interesting?
  • Are you able to defeat enemies at a reasonable rate?
  • Do all your abilities feel like they’re working together?

 

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

 

Thank you!

 

EDIT: Added additional feedback questions.

Edited by JackieKo
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(Immortal Feedback)

 

Tree:

- Having to choose between saber reflect and mad dash feels as terrible as it sounded when it was previewed.

That is to say, terrible (and this is surprising given that we haven't had mad dash for all that long).

 

I better choice, imo, would be to make saber reflect baseline and, if you have to force a choice between actives, make it between Mad Dash//Threatening Scream//Force Choke.

 

But not only does taking abilities away just feel bad (as I'm sure you've heard but seem determined to push out), it just isn't handled well by the game engine. Switching between active abilities (let alone switching between specs) puts abilities in the first available places. A better solution would have been to keep the icons there, just unavailable (e.g. red message saying "Ability not currently selected" or whatever). It wouldn't solve the issue of spec-changing, but it'd make the choose-between-active-skills path you guys are going down feel a tiny bit less painful.

 

For the rest of the tree:

  • 15: Targeted Assault seems terrible. Not only does AA do little damage in the first place, but it's seems to encourage a weird pattern of chain taunting. Chain taunting is probably fine in PVP, likely encouraged even, but even then why wouldn't you just take Sith'ari Strike which gives the exact same bonus, without the "taunted targets" restriction, and more. Other than that, I don't mind choosing between more offensive and more defensive focused passives, and the fact all the options trigger off of AA shows that the new tree could provide some interesting decisions and promise, if only the rest were like this.
  • 20:: Out of the three tanks, Juggs already have the hardest time with AoE threat generation when SR and CB aren't available. Sweeping Slash is probably going to be the only one PvE tanks will consider, but given the rest of the options on that tier that seems fine. PvP juggs will probably be the opposite -- also fine.
  • 30: Again, a bizarre option with "taunted targets" but at least it's not strictly worse than any other one like 15. And again, I like the 3 options revolving around buffs on CB, the first two seem fine, the last one just seems weird (but potentially has some PvP burst opportunity).
  • 35: This is a fine tier. War Machine makes Threating Rage (the new Enrage) even more interesting to play around with. Marked for Death started off sounding interesting to use as an off tank, but the "taunted targets" restriction makes that unlikely. Reckoning seems like the same as it is currently, a fine PvP talent.
  • 50 & 60: These are just choices of currently existing passives. My only comment here would be that it'd be nice to swap one of the ones from 60 with one of the ones from 50. None of the passives in 50 are as interesting and impactful as the ones in 60, causing both the 50 and 60 decisions to feel bad. 50 feels bad because they're all kind of "meh", and 60 feels bad because they're all interesting. Swapping War Master to 50 (with any of the current 50 options) would make both choices more interesting.
  • 70: Already covered.
  • 80: Sort of underwhelming, but at least it's not negative progress like 70. Not only are we choosing between already-existing-at-75 utilities, but there's no real decision here. The majority of players (both PvP and PvE) will pick Through Passion unless you're doing some arena skank tank thing, in which case Pooled Hatred might be considered, but I'm pretty doubtful about that.

 

Rotation:

This feels almost unaffected (which is good).

 

A note about Threatening Rage

The "damages all taunted targets around you" line is an interesting addition to the previously vanilla Enrage. But it's kind of clunky to use in practice. Lets say you want to get the most value of the damage effect of it, so you have to use it within 4 GCDs of an AoE taunt. But really, I want to taunt after damage, not as a prerequisite.

 

If, instead of "taunted targets around you" it said "all engaged enemies" (like saber reflect), it'd make much more sense. Then, you could use it as an instant rage button like you would Enrage, with a new upside.

 

I guess it could be phrased the way it is because of some weird PVP focus? But it does so little damage I don't think the change would be all that impactful. And if it were, changing it to "damages all engaged nonplayer and taunted enemy players". (Sort of mixture between guard + saber reflect wording).

 

In any case, not a huge deal, just more of a missed opportunity. The 5k damage (per taunted enemy) you get out of it every 45 seconds is not enough to make anyone feel bad about losing that effect when using it outside of the 6s taunt window.

 

Things we've gained:

  • Utility to extend SR duration has now been worked into the baseline version of the skill for tanks. This is a great QoL change, as it was a mandatory utility for tanks.

 

Things we've lost:

  • Options for temporary slight speed boosts (e.g. Enraged Defense).
  • (Tiny) bubble on AoE Taunt/Threatening Scream, though the option to get a similar effect on CB (which now also affects yourself, unlike the threatening scream utility) will probably make up for it, potentially for a net buff.
  • Ability to slightly buff sweeping slash damage to help with AoE threat generation.
  • Immunity to movement impairing effects currently/previously available in utilities.
  • Will edit this as I find more stuff

 

Overall, I'm slightly disappointed in the changes, but I think there's promise there, even some glimpses of genius in the tree.

 

tl;dr:

  • :D Choosing between additional secondary/tertiary effects for core rotational abilities is interesting.
  • :mad: Choosing between already existing utility or defensive abilities feels bad and I'd personally like to see some tweaks to them to make them more interesting but, outside of the tier 70 choice, it's reluctantly acceptable.

Edited by jheiv
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I'm very glad that Intercede is back baseline for all Juggs, with tanks gaining the Reckoning utility in its place. I still have a few points I don't like about the current state of Juggs on the PTS:

 

1. Having to choose between Mad Dash and Saber Reflect is a problem. Especially since Sins seem to be keeping all their cheeses in Shroud and Cloakout Shroud. I would exchange Endure Pain and Saber Reflect. This way there's still a tough choice between getting a cleanse with Endure Pain and getting extra mobility/damage avoidance with Dash.

 

2. Threatening Rage doesn't really work imo. It's a nice idea but the way it functions is weird. I don't want to do extra AoE damage AFTER I've taunted, I want it before, so I can get some extra threat. But in general I prefer if we could get the extra movement speed we could get from Unshackling Rage back. It's our only source of on demand movement speed with Chilling Scream removed.

 

3. Targeted Assault seems strictly inferior to Sith'ari Strike at level 15. Do I want 20% increased damage to taunted targets or do I want 20% increased damage, crit chance AND threat generation against ANY target. This is a minor point compared to the other two though, the other two options at level 15 seem great.

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I need my Force Choke back.

 

I'll add more to this. Force Choke is one of the reasons I love playing Juggernaut! This is the iconic move of the class. This is the Heroic Ability because of the Warrior. I use Force Choke, not because I need a stun, but because I love using it.

 

I use Force Choke more than I use Mad Dash.

 

Please. Put this back in as a normal ability!

Edited by SithKoriandr
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This is almost a CC of my review of the Mercenary. Really, the impression is the same, but I did want to note that I did actually log into the PST and look at the changes for this class.

 

I have a list of abilities that now force me to select between abilities that I now get almost all of on my characters. Instead of having defensives and offensives I now have to choose and the options are poor either way. Items that I currently get at low levels now appear at ridiculously high levels. And, as I noted on other classes, adding 5 levels and just rearranging the abilities instead of giving new ones makes no sense.

 

Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?

 

It feels like a pale comparison. However, the changes and limitations remove much of my enjoyment in playing the game. You have the basics there, but after level 10 it fails to live up to what I currently have on my characters. Plainly put, this is a poor design change and in no way enhances or improves my enjoyment of the game. It accomplishes the opposite. I also note with interest that you have changed your questioning down to just the rotation. Concentrating on "the rotation" tells me that you are concentrating on a specific group of players and not all players to justify your decisions.

 

I never like to write this, and a normally have a "Meh, whatever" attitude when other people do write this, but I am actually considering pulling my sub money if this goes live. Seeing as I spend that plus another $40 to $200 per month on this game to amuse myself, that will be a good chunk I can put into another game. Changing the game this much and in this way will drive people away and I doubt your new adventure options will pull enough people back or newly in to make up the difference in the long run. After the initial boost from non-sub players to gain access and see the new adventure, I would be interested to see the numbers 3 and six months on. You had a great thing with adding the Galactic Seasons, and I was excited with the idea of opening combat styles to other classes. But this basically ruins that excitement. My advice personally would be to drop the 5 extra levels and the pruning/redesign, just open up the combat styles to other classes as you described and revisit this pruning/redesign idea later.

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Choosing between reflect, endure pain (the only cleanse move) or mad dash is a swift kick in the teeth for a DPS and tank. I can maybe see choosing 2 of these, but not 1. (which seems to be visually happening on PTS atm.)

 

My mount speed seems broken too, and I don't have walk keyed up so I'm not sure what that is.

Edited by euroDSMtuner
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With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Juggernaut.

 

Please answer the following questions:

  • Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?
  • If you have feedback on the different disciplines, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

 

Thank you!

 

I only had the opportunity to try out Vengeance and Rage before I got logged out of the PTS. Having connectivity issues with that server it seems.

 

***For myself, all specs had access to Force Choke.***

 

Intercede was returned to baseline. Massive improvement over the first iteration.

 

Missing / selectable abilities:

Cyclone slash (choice), furious power (gone), freezing force (gone), mad dash / saber reflect / endure pain (level 70 choice), intimidating roar (choice). Vicious throw missing for Rage Spec

 

Vengeance:

 

The rotation feels largely the same, with one caveat. Bloodlust (Enrage) wasn't consistently generating rage. Having to lead with sundering assault makes the rotation feel clunky imo. It leads to unnecessary downtime. I'm not sure if this was intended or not. If it was, this should be changed so that it always generates rage when used.

 

Leading with sundering assault should remain a player choice. We do it when we want an armor debuff, we don't when we need to kill something quickly by doing Bloodlust -> Leap -> rotation.

 

Another choice that was removed was using Furious Power to buff an ability. This ability was hit or miss, but I enjoyed having the freedom to choose when my hard hitting abilities were empowered. It's removal did not improve my gaming experience.

 

Also, i'll reiterate my previous post. The 100% must haves of the class in order for it to feel like a Juggernaut are force charge, mad dash, intercede, force push, force choke, saber throw / hew, saber reflect, saber ward, enraged defense. Anything else can safely be modified without making the class *feel* any different.

 

Secondary abilities:

 

Guard: is great for allowing you to be useful in situations outside of DPSing. I can understand removing it if guard on DPS is a problem (especially in solo ranked) but its one of those things that is fun to be able to do, and adds to class identity. Off guarding can be incredibly rewarding when done properly in pvp and pve. It's one more aspect of the class that's difficult to master, but adds to the fun of playing it.

 

Endure Pain: Cleanse and DR are useful but the class can still operate without it.

 

Skills***:

 

Level 10&15:

 

Bloodrage: the explosive effect adds a fun aspect to the class but honestly may not see much use. I might try it in pvp to see if I can time an execute, but in PvE everything dies too fast to really make use of these changes unless you're in a MM flashpoint.

 

level 15 = passive modifiers on shatter. Increase bleed crit chance, or increase initial damage of shatter, or killing an enemy causes bleeds to explode onto nearby targets. Good choices.

 

Level 20: Again, actives and passives occupying the same slot is odd. We choose between having cyclone slash, or ravage root, or the slow on force scream. I'll explain why this is weird:

 

In PvP Vengeance players have the choice of double, triple, or quadruple rooting an enemy if necessary by doing Ravage -> Shatter -> Ravage -> rotation || Saber throw -> Leap -> Ravage -> Shatter -> Ravage -> rotation. If a player selects cyclone slash they lose this ability AND a form of soft cc (freezing force). More often than not this root combination doesn't work, but its nice when it does. Again mastering this is like mastering off guarding. It's the nuance in the class that makes playing it rewarding.

 

I don't personally care about cyclone slash, however it has its place in pve and tank spec pvp for spreading trauma. So, the choice becomes ravage root, or force scream slow, but not both.

 

Again the main theme here seems to be limiting player functionality. Nothing is added to the class by this change. We only lose.

 

Level 30:

 

Solid tier. Choice between 10% damage increase on impale, a 6m range increase and a root, or 20% crit chance increase and a small bleed damage buff. An impactful tier that modifies existing abilities.

 

Force Skewer will most likely be mandatory since we stand to lose Ravage root.

 

Level 35:

 

AOE cc, movement speed on enrage, or

 

Blood Rites: increase bleed crit chance by 10% and generate 1 rage each time a dot crits. lasts 10 seconds.

 

We have to choose between an active in Intimidating roar, or Enrage purging movement impairing effects. Again, this choice exists simply to limit player functionality and offer a false sense of choice when we previously had both. Doesn't really add anything to the Juggernaut experience.

 

Blood rites may be useful in pve.

 

Level 50:

 

Mostly a non choice. I'll choose warmonger every time.

 

Extending roar: almost no one is going to use this. Might be fun with the slow on force scream just to be silly, but that's about it.

 

Unyielding: Situational. Might become a gimmick with Bloodrage.

 

Level 60:

 

War master: basically Unstoppable and War Bringer combined.

 

Hardened defense, and Payback. Again adding unnecessary competition between useful utilities. Just bake them into the spec and move on. Choosing only one of these divests Juggernauts of too much functionality.

 

Immune to push pull / movement impairing effects || reduce AOE damage by 60% || reduce cooldown on CC break and gain 10% health. We used to be able to do all of these, now pick 1.

 

Non choice for me, War master every time in DPS. Hardened defense in tank spec.

 

Level 70:

Still a dumpster fire. The class can function without endure pain. It feels like a level 50 character without Mad Dash and Saber Reflect. Fundamentally alters how the class plays in a bad way.

 

There are so many abilities that Saber Reflect can be used against to punish an attacker. It's really one of the few equalizers that this class has. Operatives / Snipers / Sorcs / PTs can do 50% or more of your health in a single opener. We don't have the built in DR to deal with that kind of burst. This is one of the only things that puts us in a position to go toe to toe with those specs. Honestly, most specs. A well timed reflect will make or break a duel.

 

Level 80:

 

Again, useless tier. Creating competition for the sake of competition. Mostly a non choice. Everyone is going to go through passion and move on. Just bake pooled Hatred into the spec.

 

Conclusion:

 

Story mode, Veteran, and Master Mode flashpoints are largely unaffected. I was able to solo them with Jaesa as my heal companion. I did have to use Enraged Defense and Saber Ward in MM flashpoints on occasion, but I was never in danger of dying. Good players will still be able to clear content. Walked through dailies and heroics.

 

Some utilities were baked into the spec. Mostly things that are not impactful. Almost every utility that is chosen for PvP (Payback, Warmonger, Overwhelm, Pooled Hatred, Unstoppable, Unshackling Rage, Hardened defense, Through Passion, Through Victory, War Bringer, Thrown Gauntlet, Reckoning all separated) have been forced into a competitive tier against one another or removed (intimidating presence, through power, reckoning in DPS spec) in keeping with the overall theme of this update. Severely limiting player choice and what classes can do.

 

Overall, the level 10-30 choices are fun for both specs. You basically choose a flat % damage increase, increased crit, or AOE for both Vengeance and Rage. You either modify Impale or Raging Burst. Obliterate gets an option for a shield buff when used.

 

Everything else is awful and removes the majority of the choice we currently have on live. The game isn't any easier to understand. It's actually more tedious as I have to stop and switch between abilities in between fights instead of just having them on my bars. Also, I can't do as many interesting combos, off-guard, or reflect incoming projectile attacks like you would expect a force user to do. Creativity in battle has been removed from the equation.

 

It's all good though, I'll just stand behind Han Solo while he reflects everything.

Edited by Dyne-
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Guys, I usually don't write on this forum as any criticism is ignored or posts with criticism disappear. I am not here to troll, but I am here because I love the game (I sub for almost 4 years now and play daily) and I am concerned with your decisions.

I beg you, don't do it guys, you are trying to fix something that does not need fixing and you are going to ruin the experience for raiders, pvp players and also many story mode enjoyers.

Just read comment sections on youtube etc... I don't know where did you get that idea that we have too many skills to use... This made the game actually fun to play, this made builds interesting, this gave us flexibility.

 

Back to Juggernauts.

 

Juggernaut was never the best DPS and it never was the best tank, but it had all these flexible abilities that made it like a swiss knife - able to cope in every situation and do some things others could not - it had its niche. Juggernaut is considered best for beginner players as it has easy rotations and very few skills in them (especially immortal spec).

I dont like all these changes but what you are doing now with Jugg class is you are basically nerfing and killing Juggernaut, you are removing skills that made jugg a jugg. This is very bad setup that you have to choose between A, B and C (level 70, level 80), as having all three of these made the class fun to play and made it different from other classes at the same time.

 

Give us A, B and C and put something more interesting to pick - for example which of these three we would like to buff/improve. But don't make Juggernaut players decide which limb they want to amputate ;) because it feels like that at the moment.

 

I know that nobody cares, but if things stay as they are this will make the game less fun, raiding less fun and people like me are going to leave for something more exciting. Guys just leave things as they are now, and give us new flashpoints, operations, story - everybody will be happy. Don't kill my Jugg :(

Edited by Starknaga
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Immortal Disicipline

I will preface this by saying I've played Immortal Juggernaut as my main since about 2012, when I played on my dads old account when I was 12, up to this day.

The Gameplay

Positive notes here folks, Juggernaut feels, pretty much exactly the same combat wise. None of the core abilities are removed, we have all 3 of our large aggro gains. Sitting in Force Choke, Backhand, and Crushing Blow, Chilling Scream and Furious Power were both removed, I don't really care about Chilling Scream it has never held a large place in my rotation, if ever, it's more a PvP ability than a PvE one, but I did use it sometimes, but I'm not sad to see Chilling Scream Go. I don't understand why Furious Power was removed, It was our newest ability, it was a great additional to every Juggernauts kit, especially Immortal when used in tandem with Crushing Blow, but it's gone now, It sucks to see it go but it's not a deal breaker. I'm confused as to why, but it's alright I guess.

Sweeping Slash

Yes, I am giving Sweeping Slash it's own category. This thing is terrible. Immortal has always had the worst AoE aggro gain there is. Sweeping Slash does so little damage that it was actually more effective to use your harder hitting single target abilities, and spamming saber reflect in AoE pulls to keep aggro, over ever using Sweeping Slash. And now the fact that Sweeping Slash is a level 20 choice, this ability is a non-pick at this point. You can either choose to use Sweeping Slash over and over dealing minimal damage, getting no additional aggro generation from the ability, unlike Discharge from Darkness Assassin. At this point it's most likely better to choose Projected Scream at level 20 to instead choose to deal the upwards of about 15-16k damage across as many enemies that are behind the main target for 3 rage., rather than using Sweeping Slash to get only 5k at the cost of 2 full rage. This ability wasn't buffed, and it's just, a non-pick at this point. It's not even as good as Sweeping Slash, because you would have to use 4 rage from Sweeping Slash to generate as much aggro as Vicious Slash gives from 2 rage., as it's 5k damage (Sweeping) v 9l-10k (Vicious.)

The Level 70

This is, just terrible. I think this shines the most because it's possibly the worst choice possible. As I have heard, Assassin tanks are keeping their cheese tactics via Force Shroud and the like, which is fine it's one of their greatest upsides and is cool, but meanwhile while they're keeping that. We can only choose between one of our 3 best dcds.

1: Saber Reflect - Is not only a DcD, it's an offensive ability as well thanks to the reflect, and an aggro gain. This is possibly the most unique ability that Immortal has, as it covers 3 different niches with one button. Aggro, you got it. Damage and Defense? You got it if it's single target. This could almost always be a guaranteed pick to me just because of its low cooldown and versatility. It is a near integral part of Immortals defensive cooldown Kit.

2: Mad Dash - Is almost a guaranteed pick as well, because it's Immortals only self standing Mobility (aka being able to use it on your own without needing someone around). And is a guaranteed defense chance for roughly 2 seconds, AND does damage.This ability is, once again, an integral part of Immortals sustainability.

3: Intimidating Roar - Once again, it's not exactly an integral ability, but it is an ability that has an extremely short CD, (1 minute), cooldown that can stun 8 enemies, and then also reduce their damage by 15% for 10 seconds. It's an extremely use ability in every AoE pull as it gives Immortal a large amount of sustain, but also extremely used in boss fights as used off cooldown or as a DCD, reduces the damage you will take by 15%, and the damage your allies take by 15% since it's a debuff on the enemy.

You all are forcing Immortal to choose between 3 of their most unique and useful abilities, taking away 2 of our defensive abilities, while allowing tanks like Assassin to keep their entire cheese mechanics, and quite nice defensive abilities while neutering our own sustain.

Overall

This is a net nerf. We:

1: Lost Furious Power

2: Lose 2 major defensive cooldowns

3: Got a slight buff in Enrage.

4: Get slight buffs in Aegis Assault and Crushing Blow

 

We're not a stealth tank like Assassin so we lose out on abilities like that, we don't really have any major cheese abilities like Assassin (with the exception of Mad Dash which is now a choice between Saber Reflect and also Intimidating Roar). It feels like Immortal is getting hit a lot harder than other classes. What could you do for 70, I don't know, but having all 3 of our extremely strong defensive cooldowns in a single choice, really hurts.

 

All in all, it feels like I'm playing Juggernaut, just a gutted, less fun version without mad dash and saber reflect.

Edited by Kittenji
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I played with Vengeance

 

Does the current combat rotation make this experience feel like you are playing a Juggernaut? Why or why not?

 

No, many skills are missing, but with the right changes it can improve a lot. The combined use of Chilling Scream and the Piercing Chill was perfect for PVE, now the class has simply lost one of its few force skills, a skill that is classic. By forcing the player to choose between Saber Reflect and Endure Pain you simply end the class. It was boring to play with the class, in the AOE attack at a distance, Chilling Scream is lacking, which sometimes does much better than Sweeping Slash. In addition Saber Reflect and Endure Pain are essential for the gameplay of the class, especially flashpoints, the first is very useful when you are facing many enemies at once, the last, when facing many difficult bosses, is this skill that will save the character!

 

My suggestions:

 

At level 80 take Through Passion and make us choose between Endure Pain, Pooled Hatred and Crushing Fist.

 

At level 70 make us choose between Saber Reflect, Through Passion and Mad Dash.

 

As Force Skewer is not ready yet, leave it with the effects and animation of Chilling Scream + Piercing Chill

 

You might as well improve some of our skills, instead of just taking it away, I think the cost to you will be the same. For example, they could make Force Push and Force Chocke hit more than one enemy, the animation for that you already have, some characters have already used it in the classic game. It doesn't cost to please the base of the players a little, don't you think?

Edited by Lord_Arawn
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I agree with both players above.

But I still believe that making a choice between saber reflect and mad dash is a bad decision.

These are iconic juggernaut skills and they are being used all the time, for me they are constantly on cooldown.

 

I watched developers stream and I understand what they are looking to do - for example I play also assassin tank, and I have attacks bind to keys 1-12, but I go maximum to button 6-7 and I start over - they can remove remaining 6 skills (keys 7-12) and it wont be a huge deal for me.

Other classes also have skills that are useful at beginner levels but then get replaced with stronger skills and you stop to use them.

 

But in juggernaut's case it's different and they need special treatment as most of their skills are usable and are used all the time on flashpoints and operations, not to mention PvP. Personally I did not say anything about other classes, its OK, we will get used to it. But in this case it's a class breaking nerf as it is now.

 

Juggernaut iconic skills to keep jugg play like jugg - enraged defense, taunts, force choke, mad dash, saber reflect + saber ward (I would combine them into a single skill) smash, force charge - you can see these used all the time.

 

Useless skills - saber throw (nobody uses it in their rotation as it's weak atm, its used as a taunt), sweeping slash is very situational and I don't use it too often and I don't see people using it (maybe if it got buffed players would use it more often).

 

How I play:

 

I always mad dash into the enemy ranks (it works as a charge and AOE), smash them with AOE, and then use saber reflect when they are all firing at me. It looks just epic seeing all that damage and flashing - its super fun! :) It makes jugg look like that tough guy who always charges head on - as it should be.

For me removing or having to choose between mad dash and saber reflect is a disaster :)

Edited by Starknaga
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For Juggernaut the only thing I'd like to have is the old Ravager animation. It was really awesome.

 

Also, Force Choke NEEDS to come back. What the hell were you thinking? You practically removed the most iconic ability of the Sith Warrior. Never do that again.

Edited by AmphysvenaCorp
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For Juggernaut the only thing I'd like to have is the old Ravager animation. It was really awesome.

 

Also, Force Choke NEEDS to come back. What the hell were you thinking? You practically removed the most iconic ability of the Sith Warrior. Never do that again.

 

Force Choke is still baseline for all Juggernaut specs

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I won't lie, I don't see Mad Dash as iconic with Juggernaut, but maybe that's because I don't recall it being an ability when the game released. Force Choke though. Besides Juggernaut, just the movies!

 

I do feel Project and Shock were Iconic on their respective classes and they got rid of them. :/

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Juggernaut play pretty much the same but the only change i think might need to be revise is where the placement of skills are on the new tree. Tanking doesn't feel the same not sure what missing but i think it the damage it feels like it take much longer to kill things.

 

Also, I'm not sure if this was done on purpose or mistake but is there a reason why Force choke is not a lvl 61 skill and Force Push level 51? These skills are core skill from the core game. I think maybe revisiting when we get our skill back might be much better

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At level 70, having to choose between Saber Reflect and Mad Dash is going to be rather devastating in PvP.

 

Saber Reflect and Mad Dash are essential tools used in defending, albeit briefly, against Ranged Opponents and closing the distance between them.

 

There are plenty of tools available that limits the Juggernauts ability to leap to an intended target. Now without Mad Dash and Saber Reflect, together, Juggernauts will be sitting ducks for anyone with a blaster. By the time the Juggernaut player closes the gap, they will be down at least 50% health and then the intended target will just Run away, roll away, phase walk away, or jetpack backwards. Then there goes the other 50% health.

 

This option at Level 70 was not thought out by someone that plays Juggernaut in a PvP Setting. That much is obvious.

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At level 70, having to choose between Saber Reflect and Mad Dash is going to be rather devastating in PvP.

 

Saber Reflect and Mad Dash are essential tools used in defending, albeit briefly, against Ranged Opponents and closing the distance between them.

 

There are plenty of tools available that limits the Juggernauts ability to leap to an intended target. Now without Mad Dash and Saber Reflect, together, Juggernauts will be sitting ducks for anyone with a blaster. By the time the Juggernaut player closes the gap, they will be down at least 50% health and then the intended target will just Run away, roll away, phase walk away, or jetpack backwards. Then there goes the other 50% health.

 

This option at Level 70 was not thought out by someone that plays Juggernaut in a PvP Setting. That much is obvious.

 

Hard agree. The class is being neutered to unplayability. Now just fodder for rdps.

Edited by Aghasett
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Its comical albeit not in a good way that bioware thinks butchering one of if not the most well liked and iconic classes in the game into oblivion, especially from a pvp standpoint ,will go well with the players... I mean its star wars-we want to play with a glow stick and feel like vader or luke, if we would like to be space james bond we can play other games which do this way better in the first place.... nerfing juggs/guardians into oblivion isn't only a bad gameplay decision it is an incredibly dumb buissnes decision as well...make iconic classes competitive, espially in pvp/ranked, don't force us to play space james bond just to be competitive...
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Its comical albeit not in a good way that bioware thinks butchering one of if not the most well liked and iconic classes in the game into oblivion, especially from a pvp standpoint ,will go well with the players... I mean its star wars-we want to play with a glow stick and feel like vader or luke, if we would like to be space james bond we can play other games which do this way better in the first place.... nerfing juggs/guardians into oblivion isn't only a bad gameplay decision it is an incredibly dumb buissnes decision as well...make iconic classes competitive, espially in pvp/ranked, don't force us to play space james bond just to be competitive...

 

The "devs" have had favourite classes for a long time now, and Jugg/Mara aint one of them. Those laughable and unprofessional nerfs and butchering to the class are nothing more than children wanting their toy to be the best. Sadly this is what it has come down to.

Edited by ExarSun
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Alrighty.... So I'm somewhat reluctant to get involved in this discussion but as someone who has been playing the Guardian/Juggernaut since December of 2011 and seeing the current set of changes I have to say that I'm actually a big fan of the changes and I don't really understand the negativity.

 

Looking at all of this I see that what they're trying to do is simplify the skill trees to make the game accessible to new players at the same time as allow players to continue to feel powerful by giving you passives that improve your main damage rotation. Essentially you sacrifice 2 active abilities at max level because you will be choosing 1 of 3 but this actually does a couple of really nice things. 1) It simplifies rotations for people who are newer to the game and returning players who haven't played in a very long time and aren't used to having so many abilities to manage and 2) it actually creates a significant amount of diversity in the builds that you'll see and how to deal with them. This creates much more complex interactions in terms of how you manage your team comp when putting together flash points and diversifies the choices that you'll be making in PVP match ups. These are good things.

 

In regards to the Immortal and Vengeance ability trees specifically I can see a number of really excellent synergies going up each skill tree. The vengeance build is looking as dangerous as ever since it has gained a couple of new passives that increase the critical hit chance on the elemental burns and hasn't lost any of it's ability to spread these burns using AOE damage. Additionally the Immortal ability tree has several abilities that either increase the critical hit chance on the most important abilities or increasing the damage dealt to taunted targets with key abilities. Both of these seem awesome for PVP and PVE. I'm also glad to see that it seems that they aren't really doing much of anything to nerf or remove the build where you play the Immortal/Defense skill tree while building DPS gear.

 

Anyway, I'm excited by this.

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Are you serious about that nonesense? I mean I am not opposed to changes, but these changes simply kill the dps specs outright for anyone doing none noob content... take a jugg dps to ranked and see how it goes on live, as it is now- its borderline unplayable cause of the disparity in defs, as it is right now. now take away 2 of 3 vital dcds while other classes can keep their cheeses.its not about offensive potential-juggs do fine in that regard, its about being able to stay alive for more than 6 seconds when getting focus...stealthers can stealth out, mercs got an aboundance of dcds AND can keep all of them and they are ranged too- what do we have?-blade blitz every 35 secs, an outdated reflect compared to mercs, and a fake selfheal that is more fake than heal-out of these 3, none lets us get out of combat like others can, none enables us to stay in combat as others can cause jugg/guardian defs are outdated in 6.0 allready....now take 2 away and you honestly think we are in a good spot?! delusional! trimming is okay, if the devs do it right, but they make the problems the class has greater with this **** show of an "update". you can't just look at what they are doing to juggs, you gotta look at what they are doing to other classes as well. and what they are planing, simply isn't fair game for every class. it just kills classes/specs outright, instead of achieving actual class balance....
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