The purpose... is to have a dialog.

I mean no offense by this, but how is one-way communication with us once in a blue moon a dialogue? Especially when you have an entire community desperately trying to get developer feedback on literally every single board of these forums.

I understand where you are coming from, and what happened yesterday sounds totally unacceptable. However, it doesn't seem appropriate to label your scarce forum posts as "dialog."

Yeah that's dumb. I do not hide my opinion that the devs in charge of class design and balancing decisions are utterly incompetent, and that I could do the job better than all of them (heh, all of them) combined, but involving people's personal lives is never the answer. I'm sorry that this happened.

That being said, the content of dev posts about sents/maras yesterday was totally unacceptable. The community has a right to be outraged. That doesn't excuse the behavior of people involving the devs' personal lives of course.

Also, it would be quite sad for you to use the actions of the few offenders here as an excuse to interact with the community even less. I hope you don't resort to that.

Sigh. I don't sympathize with them or anything near that level. Take it easy.

Don't worry, there are some of us still intelligent enough to understand that you can "not condone a certain action" but at the same time also empathize with why someone might have gone to that extreme.

For those of you who do not comprehend, and somehow think of it as 'blaming the victim', it isn't (But you wont see it any other way), it's a simple questioning of why did it get to this extreme? Find the reason for that and address that, and you're less likely to see this happen.

Hey folks,

 

I feel the need to make this post after some things happened yesterday. Yesterday, John made some posts communicating our views, and looking for feedback, around the state of Sentinels and Marauders. We knew going in that some of what we were going to say might not be what players wanted to hear, but the Combat team felt it was very important that you understood how we view things from our side. We may disagree on some things, but if all opinions are on the table we can have a better and more informed dialog about it.

 

However, following the posts John made yesterday, a few players formed a witch-hunt against John. These players tracked him down on some of his personal accounts and in some extreme cases, even those of his family members with the sole purpose of harassing, insulting, and threatening him based on those forum posts. The purpose of our forums, of our subreddit, and other official channels is to have a dialog. We know that sometimes we may disagree, and that’s ok. We want to have those hard conversations, we want to talk about what we can do to improve, and to pass on our thoughts on how we see things from the Development side. But taking that conversation off of official channels to make personal attacks against Developers is completely unacceptable.

 

Please understand John didn’t need to communicate his perspective about the class. John and the Combat team knew giving their views on Sentinels and Marauders, in some cases, would not be received well, but he did it anyway. The alternative, is that we stay silent. If the reaction of this community is to go out of your way to personally harass someone we will stop having a dialog. How can we, as a Community team, ask the Combat team to put their opinions out here if some of you are going to react this way?

 

We know there is unhappiness in the Sent/Mara community and we genuinely want to continue having an open discussion with all of you. But, it’ll require regular dialog, respecting each other’s opinions, and very importantly, not harassing anyone who is participating in the conversation. That means, we all need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and be accountable for our actions.

 

Thank you.

 

-eric

Eric.

I appreciate what you are saying here, and you are right.

But understand that you should NOT punish the majority for what the fringe do by threatening silence (a silence we usually receive anyway).

I guess my concern is that given BioWare's history of poor communication with its players (as perceived from the players' side), it will only hurt the promotion and marketing of your product if you use the idiot fringe to justify further silence.

I appreciate the awareness you are trying to raise. I just ask you understand that even in the most dire of circumstances, it's NEVER a good idea to threaten your player base with silence.

Rather, report the lunatics to the authorities, instead of a post that infers a type of guilt by association - even if you didn't intend it, that is exactly how it can be perceived.

I do appreciate the position you are in and that it can be challenging. I just ask that you remember at the end of the day, you are selling a product, and we are the consumers. If some of your consumers get mad at your product and break the law, you don't take it out on the rest of your consumers, unless you want to lose business. You handle the troublemakers discretely and let the authorities take care of it, and you continue to try to deliver top customer service. Yeah, it sucks at times, but that's the job when you are selling something.

That people insulted, harassed or threatened someone or their family is wrong.

 

In no way condoning that the situation with the mara/sents could have been handled so much better. A post that basically told the annihilation players to learn to play and when this was raised as insulting no clarification post was made.

 

Speaking of dialogue is also a little misleading, it suggests a conversation between two or more people. What has been received by the players is a monologue in which first the mara/sent community were told their poor performance in ranked PvP was an illusion and the metrics said that they won most of their games. This was refuted by the players and so another post went up saying the players were wrong.

 

Then changes are made which don't appear to address the problem on the PTS and 60 pages are posted on how this doesn't work. There is no reply to these and then 3 posts are made. All which basically told the players you feed back was worthless we are doing things how we want and you need to learn to play. For all the good it does the dialogue could as easily have been the patch notes for the amount of two way communication that is happening.

 

While a serious lack of judgement was exercised its surprising that players feel that connected to the game to go to these lengths for the vast majority of people its not fun any more and quit. Between playing a class thats not fun and stalking someone I can think of better ways to spend my time.

This is worded much better than my post was and makes the point I was trying to make.

Don't worry, there are some of us still intelligent enough to understand that you can "not condone a certain action" but at the same time also empathize with why someone might have gone to that extreme.

 

For those of you who do not comprehend, and somehow think of it as 'blaming the victim', it isn't (But you wont see it any other way), it's a simple questioning of why did it get to this extreme? Find the reason for that and address that, and you're less likely to see this happen.

There really is no excuse to go to that extreme, and I don't think I explained very well. It's explaining the reason behind why somebody got angry, and sympathizing with that. Then they commit a crime based on that anger, that's completely inexcusable.

I cannot understand their action but I can understand why they are angry. Don´t twist my words and those are totally different things. Seriously, I can understand why every Sent alive is pissed of. I CAN´t understand why somebody would do such a thing.

I think it is fair to assume that people would err on the side of being cautious now. But even if it wasn't the case, sometimes it is easy to misinterpret explaining with sympathy (in this case sympathy with whoever though it was just dandy to threaten his family).

Wait...what!? You mean there are crazy people on the internet?

Seriously, I do appreciate the communication from the devs, even if the message is one we don't want to hear. I also think it's probably a bad policy to have devs delivering class change rationales under a tag that can be used to personally identify them, since...yeah, there are a lot of loons on the net and it's inevitable this will happen with a charged topic.

That said, let's all remain respectful and keep the heat on Bioware to provide the changes we want instead of getting distracted by sub arguments in this thread.

Jesus. All these people actually saying that the tone of the post was responsible for the harassment, and cowardly prefacing it with "Oh, yeah, I totally don't condone it, but *insert reasoning about why the post should be responsible.*

 

I don't care your spec was gutted in 3.0.

 

I don't care about the post's tone.

 

I don't care about how little the changes help your class or not.

 

He and his family got harassed. Over a post. And all you care about is that bloody post. What kind of human being are you? Are you really that blind that the state of your class in a video game is more important than the well-being of the people who are making the game? Get a grip, guys. Get a damn grip.

So, I was on Massively OP and the first article I see is about this, and I came here and saw this and wanted to say something, but this post says it all.

As punsihment for the harassment, the sent/mara class is being deleted from the game

In all seriousness, thats ridiculous that someone got that worked up over a video game. the people/person(s) involved should have charges pressed against them , or at the very least be perma-banned from the game and forums. someone that toxic is someone i dont think any sensible person would want to be around

That people insulted, harassed or threatened someone or their family is wrong.

 

In no way condoning that the situation with the mara/sents could have been handled so much better. A post that basically told the annihilation players to learn to play and when this was raised as insulting no clarification post was made.

 

Speaking of dialogue is also a little misleading, it suggests a conversation between two or more people. What has been received by the players is a monologue in which first the mara/sent community were told their poor performance in ranked PvP was an illusion and the metrics said that they won most of their games. This was refuted by the players and so another post went up saying the players were wrong.

 

Then changes are made which don't appear to address the problem on the PTS and 60 pages are posted on how this doesn't work. There is no reply to these and then 3 posts are made. All which basically told the players you feed back was worthless we are doing things how we want and you need to learn to play. For all the good it does the dialogue could as easily have been the patch notes for the amount of two way communication that is happening.

 

While a serious lack of judgement was exercised its surprising that players feel that connected to the game to go to these lengths for the vast majority of people its not fun any more and quit. Between playing a class thats not fun and stalking someone I can think of better ways to spend my time.

Observation: A beautiful post.

Theory: It is likely that they are disinclined to make replies because of the rude conduct of players. I know I don't like dealing with them. I wouldn't want to deal with them were I on the Combat team. To know that anything I post will be torn apart and I will be treated very rudely is not a pleasant thought.

Opinion: I do believe that the rules of this place need to be tighter regarding the way folks post. Rude posts and posters should be dealt with. Anything anyone thinks is wrong should be done so in a mature manner. That will open up an actual dialogue. Knowing that anyone that acts like a rude punk will be dealt with makes for better communication.

My recommendation is that BioWare goes silent.

Those of us that enjoy the game, no matter how much we may disagree with some changes, will still play without the communication even if it would be a sad day should it come to pass.

I'd rather not give the scum the opportunity to harass/insult/threaten people, than to have the luxury of dialogue with the developers.

Don't worry, there are some of us still intelligent enough to understand that you can "not condone a certain action" but at the same time also empathize with why someone might have gone to that extreme.

 

For those of you who do not comprehend, and somehow think of it as 'blaming the victim', it isn't (But you wont see it any other way), it's a simple questioning of why did it get to this extreme? Find the reason for that and address that, and you're less likely to see this happen.

Apparently you're part of the reason and I hope they do address you.

Bioware's Combat Developers have spent years working their way up in their career to the point where they could proudly say that they are the combat designers at Bioware. Their job is not "forum idea implementor". Their job is combat design.

If they want to rework every single damn ability in a way the "community" (i.e. the tiny amount of players who post on the forums) disagrees with, they have every right to. It's their job. Not yours. They have no obligation to listen to what a player thinks of their classes.

If you feel your time has been wasted, because you spent hundreds of hours in testing and wrote up your own reasons why something should work in X, Y, or Z way - that's on you. You wasted your own time. Harassing the developer is the action of entitled whining children. Pretending the devs have to implement your ideas and respect them is the action of entitled whining children. Get over yourself. When you've put in the effort to actually be hired by Bioware, that's the only time your stance truly matters and that is the way it should be.

Wow.

Honestly, if the emotions you experience with regards to class changes in a video game extend beyond annoyed, there's something broken in you. The rational response to changes you don't like being made to a product you're paying for is to stop paying for the product, and find something that does meet your needs... Not threaten a man's family because you think they broke your favorite toy.

"I can understand because people are angry"... People needs some fresh air, apparently.

I hope whoever was responsible got a solid permanent banning.

For god's sake, people, get a goddammed grip. It's a game.

I hope you reported those who did it to the proper authorities. There are laws about online stalking and harassment, and frankly people who would do those things need to dealt with or they will be emboldened to do more heinous acts.

This.

We want constructive dialogue about this and all issues, not criminally stupid idiots thinking they can get away with this garbage.

I hope everyone blaming the victim here get's a suspension or worse. That behavior should not be tolerated, especially right after this event.

I'm sure that would make you and others feel better, but it would only create more problems not solve them. A knee jerk reaction to something you hate on a visceral level is exactly what you despise in the actions of those that necessitated this thread in the first place.

Jesus. All these people actually saying that the tone of the post was responsible for the harassment, and cowardly prefacing it with "Oh, yeah, I totally don't condone it, but *insert reasoning about why the post should be responsible.*

 

I don't care your spec was gutted in 3.0.

 

I don't care about the post's tone.

 

I don't care about how little the changes help your class or not.

 

He and his family got harassed. Over a post. And all you care about is that bloody post. What kind of human being are you? Are you really that blind that the state of your class in a video game is more important than the well-being of the people who are making the game? Get a grip, guys. Get a damn grip.

Let's be clear here. There is a world of difference between blaming the victim, and looking at what happened and saying "could this have been prevented and if so how?". As far as I am able to dispense blame, which is to say insofar as I am able to hold an opinion on the matter, the blame completely and totally rests with those who harassed John and his family. I am not legally empowered to take any action against those people, but if I were I am hard pressed to see how the tone or content of John's posts yesterday would have any mitigating factor towards that blame.

But saying that what they did was wrong, and beyond justification, which is all I AM empowered to do, is a matter of one sentence. The next question of "could have been prevented, and if so how?", is a more complicated matter and deserves more thought., and the first thing I ask myself is do I understand, or think I understand, the motivations behind those who committed these heinous acts of harassment. Well I think they did it out of anger and frustration that has been boiling for months. Understand that at this point blame and justification don't enter into it. No matter what John did or said, they weren't justified. No matter how angry or frustrated they were, their actions were inexcusable. Understanding the why does not mean I, or anyone else, condones the what.

But if we can understand it their motivations, and if those motivations can be influenced by the actions of the dev team themselves without compromising their own duties or rights, then I find nothing wrong with suggesting such courses of action to the dev team so that future incidents like this will not happen or not happen to such a degree (I understand that the world is full of crazy people).

The game isn't that important I agree. That's why I express my own frustration and anger by simply not contributing to feedback threads anymore. Stopping future harassment is, I think, very important though.

Really? Put this in any other context to help you realize what you're saying:

 

"As much as I detest assault I can understand those people."

"As much as I detest rape I can understand those people."

"As much as I detest murder I can understand those people."

 

You realize your justifying criminal action right? For God sakes, I've lost all hope in humanity and this game. Honestly I hope EA takes their ball and goes home, they don't deserve this treatment and the jerks that did this and/or support/justify it don't deserve to play the game.

Again, there is a world of difference between understanding something and condoning it. My understanding of the motivations which could lead someone to these actions does not, in any way, serve as justification for those actions.

Since you want to bring in more serious examples, let's play this out a bit. Say that my friend gets something precious stolen from him. He finds out who did it and beats that person up. Even though I can understand my friend's motivation in beating the other person, that doesn't mean I condone what he did. It is wrong for him to take the law into his own hands, and the fact that the person he beat up stole something from him shouldn't be a mitigating factor. In one respect, I don't even care what was stolen because nothing can justify my friend for having done that That doesn't change the fact that the thief shouldn't have stolen though. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they don't make just one wrong either. Btw, my original example was much worse really, but this gets the point across I hope.

There really is no excuse to go to that extreme, and I don't think I explained very well. It's explaining the reason behind why somebody got angry, and sympathizing with that. Then they commit a crime based on that anger, that's completely inexcusable.

The distinction people aren't making is that one can absolutely 'understand' why something happened, but at the same time can also 'not condone' that action.

Empathy and Logic are not mutually exclusive.

People are also confusing sympathy with empathy (maybe some are sympathizing, I am not) and there is a clear difference between the two as well..

At this point someone brought up a good point though....about "threatening the community with the alternative of staying silent". That also is not very professional, but I can empathize with why the developers may feel that way.

I love how your post is 99% complaining and insulting and you tack on the end bit as an afterthought.

You're not going to stop E-Thugs sorry m8

going after the dudes family IS way lame

and Authorities should be notified of this incident..

I started playing SWTOR in early access in 2011. My first character was a Sith Warrior. She became an Annihilation Marauder from the very beginning. She has always been my main. She has always been an Annihilation Marauder. 90% of my efforts in playing the game/improving my characters has gone to playing her as an Annihilation Marauder. I love the spec. I love the rotation. I love the playstyle. I was getting burned out a couple months ago so I took a break. I came back to this.

After reading this thread, I'm not 100% sure what these changes were. However, as some one who loves the Marauder class and the Annihilation spec:

I don't care if the changes were literally "Every character in this spec has been deleted and will not be recoverable." If your reaction to the news of ILLEGAL IRL HARASSMENT was to bring in reasons why people would have felt harassing some one's family was an understandable thing to do, if your reaction to harassment and insults was to critique the way this game plays, if your reaction to this post was not along the lines of "This is awful! This should happen to no one! And this is not the place nor time to argue about the game play!":

Please take a step back and reevaluate your priorities in communication. No one should have to go through what the family members of the devs endured.

John, Eric, everyone on the team, I don't give a flying bantha rear what you did to my class. I stand with you. Stay safe.

Please accept my humble apology on behalf of my guild, John. We support the developers and hope that we can all work together to better the game we love to play.

Oh?

You know something about who did this?

Hello everyone,

I have locked this thread, and will be spending some time cleaning it up.

EDIT: I'm unlocking the thread now. Please do not blame other Community members or groups of causing problems, and please respect the opinions of others, even if you disagree with the opinions/how they are presented. Also, if you feel someone has "crossed the line" or broken a forum rule, please use the report function. Thank you for your understanding!

Tait