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Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4


EricMusco

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Hey folks,

 

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it. We understand we have not kept you updated on the threads where we posted the Class changes so we want to talk through what happens next and how we will use your feedback.

 

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our "How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

 

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

 

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

  • Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  • Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  • Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

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Thanks for the update Eric

 

I don't think people are upset about nerfs (MMO's have to do it), but more about CXP tied to them.

 

It's more significant as people did the grind on mains with CXP and now effectively have nerfed to death mains. In the past it wasn't a big deal, but with CXP Grind being character specific it's a lot more impact to players. All MMO's make nerfs, but you guys forcing folks into the CXP model makes it more annoying.

 

I'm a SORC Heals that has been playing since founder and this nerf to me is basically a "Go roll FOTM Healer". I've seen you nerf us before, but nothing like this. Your approach due to CXP should have been "BUFF" the other healers (Which I think are not that far behind our class).

 

Added: You are saying you will watch things and adjust, but I ask HOW LONG will it take? In the past you have made the same promise and we don't see things improve for 6-10 months. This is also a reason why your team has a very bad rap for OVER doing things and not quickly correcting it once it fails (As I suspect this wide of swing will fail). I'd like to see you and Keith commit to correcting before 5.4 drops any major issues with this nerf bat swing.

Edited by dscount
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Ok, we got all that before, I think. Thanks for explaining in detail.

 

My complaint here is, What about the other classes that are not receiving a much deserved NERF in 5.3, like Mara (at least carnage), Operative (at least lethality) and Assassin Deception, for instance, all of them are way above their DPS Target (lethality reach 10% above dps target where it should be "only" 5%) and gonna stay that way in 5.3, doing much more dps than everyone else now. One would think they should also be priority since are doing, like all the others that will be nerfed, above their dps target.

Does that seems fair to you? Why aren't they receiving a nerf in 5.3 too? And more importantly, WHEN will these classes/builds see this nerf?

Coincidentally, they are all MDPS...:rak_02:

Edited by azamba
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Your approach due to CXP should have been "BUFF" the other healers (Which I think are not that far behind our class).

This has been addressed, see here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9337631#edit9337631

 

Thanks Mr. Musco. I'm glad to hear that changes will be more frequent and less sweeping.

 

Maybe if it were possible to transfer Command Rank from one character to another, people would be less upset? That would encourage FotM chasing, but you could make it cost a boatload of credits or CC. Regarding the upcoming state of healers (pending Sorc/Sage heal nerf), I'd argue that there will be no FotM because their healing output is now going to be pretty well balanced. Maybe Merc/Mando due to their defensives.

 

P.S. Legacy UC pretty please? I got my Marauder to CR 300 and have a bunch of 242 shells needed to trade in to get 248, but now I'm starting over again on my Sentinel (imp friends moved on from the game, pub friends coming back). I can get the 242 gear to my Sentinel, but there is no way for me to upgrade that 242 to 248 since my Mara has the shells. I'd have to play my Marauder in PvP. If we had legacy UC, I could play my Sentinel, collect UC, purchase upgrades on my Mara, and legacy gear over the mods to my Sentinel. Or just allow me to legacy transfer the shells? That might get messy, though...not sure you would want to make those pieces legacy bound.

 

Thanks! :)

Edited by teclado
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Sorry, but this approach of "Suck it up buttercup" falls inline with a previous parody when dev team told us to "Heal to Full and make them pay" in PVP.

 

Just Heal to Full (a SWTOR parody of James Blunt's "You're Beautiful")

 

My apologies Eric and Keith. You guys are being great at communications in general, but you really keep dropping the ball big time on "Feedback" about class changes. Couple of those have been up for a few weeks and ZERO responses. Please extend your new communications model into ALL conversations of huge impact to the community. ;)

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There's a difference between EHPS and burst healing. Sure a sorc might have had slightly higher EHPS than intended, but their burst healing was weaker than the other 2 classes. With the new nerfs, stuff like the NiM Raptus healing challenge will encourage people to leave their sorcs and bring a merc instead.
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Hey folks,

 

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it. We understand we have not kept you updated on the threads where we posted the Class changes so we want to talk through what happens next and how we will use your feedback.

 

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our "How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

 

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

 

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

  • Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  • Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  • Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

Just don't make from dps sorc a new fotm lol. This game wont survive another fotm.

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Thank you for addressing the force negative rotation of madness.

 

My only issue with the buffs to their dmg is that the dots are now relying heavily on a broken mechanic with death marks I propose remove the 5% buff from that passive and throw it in Force Horrors (Buff to 15%) (Up from 10%) It will make the same difference but make it less of a chance for another hatred/sorc to take your damage.

 

Until you can fix the issue with Death Mark I would also recommend changing the passive or fixing the issue asap as it is frustrating that potentially another sorc/sin is taking my dmg buff away from me.

 

P.S. I want some good DCDs in 5.4. I hate doing everything in my power to survive and still dying to some random average player.

 

Might not be the place as well but may I suggest the two dps specs for sorcs get a passive that increases the cooldown of static barrier but increases the dmg absorbed 2x the original, some real dedicated DCD would be great. (Just an Idea/suggestion)

Edited by Gramm
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buff madness dps, the force management is retarded too but that is just if you spam heal to full dark heal.

 

 

DPS sorcs need a buff asap, can not compete with any other class at all, like pretty much everything counters you and if we will be so easy to kill, at least make us be able to make them pay if they let us live lol

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[*]Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

If you're helping the force management of Madness/Balance, you should also be helping the heat management of IO/Assault. They are both ranged dot dps specs and both have horrible resource management. Resource management isn't fun, playing and being able to use abilities is fun. I understand there needs to be a little management, but the entire spec shouldn't revolve around it...as that in no way makes it "fun".

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Ok, we got all that before, I think. Thanks for explaining in detail.

 

My complaint here is, What about the other classes that are not receiving a much deserved NERF in 5.3, like Mara (at least carnage), Operative (at least lethality) and Assassin Deception, for instance, all of them are way above their DPS Target (lethality reach 10% above dps target where it should be "only" 5%) and gonna stay that way in 5.3, doing much more dps than everyone else now. One would think they should also be priority since are doing, like all the others that will be nerfed, above their dps target.

Does that seems fair to you? Why aren't they receiving a nerf in 5.3 too? And more importantly, WHEN will these classes/builds see this nerf?

Coincidentally, they are all MDPS...:rak_02:

 

 

The IO Merc who just got nerfed pointing fingers at the mDPS classes two of which are in the "on target DPS" cateogory.

 

How shocking.

 

Deception Assassin and Marauders have been repeatedly sighted from 5.0 till present as the most balanced DPS specs in the game. Now that the ranged have got nerf they want to point fingers at the melee classes who didn't get buffed going into 5.0.

 

Because OP Ranged got nerfed, doesn't mean we got buffed, we didn't. We're the same as we have been all along.

 

Now they're all crying melee. Pathetic.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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There's a difference between EHPS and burst healing. Sure a sorc might have had slightly higher EHPS than intended, but their burst healing was weaker than the other 2 classes. With the new nerfs, stuff like the NiM Raptus healing challenge will encourage people to leave their sorcs and bring a merc instead.

 

Since when have operatives had better burst healing than sorcs?

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Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

  • Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  • Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  • Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

Sorry, Eric, but I don't buy it. Your thread on how and why is total garbage as is the theory behind how BW wants to do balance. But, I'm sure BW doesn't want my feedback on that anymore than they want the feedback from anyone else who has told them the same thing.

 

I can go to Parsely and see the actual in-game performance against the ingame content. It doesn't even come close to what BW claims for Healer Sage/Sorc or for Arsenal/Gunnery. But then, that's been the problem all along. BW comes up with "metrics" that don't reflect reality, then acts on them like they were gospel then wonder why the players are angry or stop paying subs. Somehow, I don't expect it to change any time soon, but you've got my opinion on it.

 

The entire real reason for the nerfs is to force the people playing the popular classes to have to regrind for gear to go back to ding the same content we've been doing for years now. BW is just hoping we'll all stick around through the end of the year that way. That's not going to happen, at least not for me. Nerf my class so it doesn't perform as needed by my raid group (like you did my telekenisis sage previously) and I'll unsub, again, after Tuesday. The difference is, this time I'll be gone. There are other games that have better play and so on that I am willing to pay for. SWTOR is barely worth it now and if you make it so I can't play like i am now, SWTOR won't be worth the money at all.

 

Good luck. I don't expect you to listen or care, but there it is.

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There's a difference between EHPS and burst healing. Sure a sorc might have had slightly higher EHPS than intended, but their burst healing was weaker than the other 2 classes. With the new nerfs, stuff like the NiM Raptus healing challenge will encourage people to leave their sorcs and bring a merc instead.

 

Are you really suggesting Sorc are lacking in burst healing? Have you ever played an Operative healer since 3.0? And while Mercs do have solid single target burst, I'm not even sure they can beat sorc burst as it is on live

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Maybe if it were possible to transfer Command Rank from one character to another, people would be less upset?

 

You'd have to be able to trade gear straight across for set bonuses as well, without having to pay to move the mods around again. Otherwise it wouldn't help.

 

Sorry, but this approach of "Suck it up buttercup" falls inline with a previous parody when dev team told us to "Heal to Full and make them pay" in PVP.

 

Just Heal to Full (a SWTOR parody of James Blunt's "You're Beautiful")

 

My apologies Eric and Keith. You guys are being great at communications in general, but you really keep dropping the ball big time on "Feedback" about class changes. Couple of those have been up for a few weeks and ZERO responses. Please extend your new communications model into ALL conversations of huge impact to the community. ;)

 

Yeah, they are definitely wight up there with "Heal to full". The problem is, they get feedback that doesn't fit their "metrics" so they disregard it and then wonder why people are upset or the game is broken. (GC and 5.0 is a perfect example of that, it never should have gone live with the gearing system they decided on. And, in spite of what they claim, it's still broken.)

 

I'm off to look for a friendly raiding guild in ESO.

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I can go to Parsely and see the actual in-game performance against the ingame content. It doesn't even come close to what BW claims for Healer Sage/Sorc or for Arsenal/Gunnery. But then, that's been the problem all along. BW comes up with "metrics" that don't reflect reality, then acts on them like they were gospel then wonder why the players are angry or stop paying subs. Somehow, I don't expect it to change any time soon, but you've got my opinion on it.

 

I can look at starparse statistics and show you that Sorcs make up around 50% of healers and Mercs make up around 30% of all DPS, with over 90% of them playing Arsenal. If that's not indicative of some sort of problem, I don't know what is

Edited by AdjeYo
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I can go to Parsely and see the actual in-game performance against the ingame content. It doesn't even come close to what BW claims for Healer Sage/Sorc or for Arsenal/Gunnery..

 

You can go to Parsley and see what some very specific people intentionally uploaded to parsley. You can see what very good RNG can do, and what exceptionally skilled players can do, some of them. That is not representitive of the norm or the average. People don't generally get 50% critical hits/heals.

 

Even if there is 20 parses up for a section, what is that, maybe less than 1% of the actual number of people who play that spec around the world?

 

 

I've used parsely too. I never once uploaded an average performance parse, or any of the 19 wipes on NiM Boss X before getting the clear.

 

Parsley is a 3rd party website. The game does not use it for it's internal metrics. If we use parsely for class balance, Lighting Sorcs need a DPS nerf. How many times have you matched the number one highest parse? Most people don't. You don't base averages on the best.

 

Parsley is great for a learning tool, to compare rotations and such, and to get some performance ideas and it's good for bragging rights. Most people aren't the best of the best. Got some very skilled players on there, no doubt, but they shouldn't be used as the standard.

 

It's also completely PVE based, and has no representation of PVP, you know, the other part of the game. Parses mean zero in PVP.

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Yeah, they are definitely wight up there with "Heal to full". The problem is, they get feedback that doesn't fit their "metrics" so they disregard it and then wonder why people are upset or the game is broken.

 

I'm off to look for a friendly raiding guild in ESO.

 

Maybe the feedback is just wrong.

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You can go to Parsley and see what some very specific people intentionally uploaded to parsley. You can see what very good RNG can do, and what exceptionally skilled players can do, some of them. That is not representitive of the norm or the average. People don't generally get 50% critical hits/heals.

 

Even if there is 20 parses up for a section, what is that, maybe less than 1% of the actual number of people who play that spec around the world?

 

(snip)

 

It's also completely PVE based, and has no representation of PVP, you know, the other part of the game. Parses mean zero in PVP.

 

I agree, which means Parsley is actually showing better numbers for all classes than what the average in game would be. That makes their planned nerfs even more foolish.

 

And as for PVP, I honestly don't give a !@%$!@. HOwever, I do believe they need to balance PVE and PVP separately. They've been trying for 5 years to get it right doing the two together and haven't even come close, and never will. The requirements for both types of play are different and they haven't worked on that part.

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Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line.[/b] Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

-eric

 

I'm happy to hear this Eric, I commented on this back in june 17 in the Arsenal thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9334415#post9334415

 

With the news that you guys are going to address balance changes more frequently will definitely mitigate the extreme responses when we get balance changes now. People like small tweaks more frequently, in the manner of "fine tuning" instead of letting something be broken for 7 months then having to deal with it in a large way, which ensues in an uproar because players 'perceive' that there class is being "gutted".

 

Please stay true to this philosophy of more frequent smaller tweaks and I think you guys will have a better reception in the future when it comes to class balance!

Edited by DenariusJay
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I can go to Parsely and see the actual in-game performance against the ingame content. It doesn't even come close to what BW claims for Healer Sage/Sorc or for Arsenal/Gunnery. But then, that's been the problem all along. BW comes up with "metrics" that don't reflect reality, then acts on them like they were gospel then wonder why the players are angry or stop paying subs. Somehow, I don't expect it to change any time soon, but you've got my opinion on it.

 

My subscription runs out in about 6weeks. If my guild is telling me to re-roll to stay in the progression group, due to these changes I will just let the subscription run out and move on

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