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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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So....What's the news, are we looking for 1.4 to be the gay patch or what?

 

1.4 is probably the safest "bet" right now, if the leaks still hold up towards it being a companion-centric patch. I wouldn't outright expect it, but seeing as it takes about two or three months between each patch and SGRA were promised this year, I'd say its reasonable to not dismiss it without a specific announcement of delay, as this will likely be the last patch until 2013 unless they work like clockwork to advance their schedule. :D

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And there's no official word on when 1.4 comes out, right?

 

Well, server mergers are apparently happening "late this summer" - given that many people have stated that they cannot transfer their characters to destination servers because they already have characters there, it might be reasonable to assume that before the mergers Bioware will consider adding additional character slots. Character slots are a fairly big thing, so would be lumped into a larger patch.

 

So... circa September, maybe.

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And there's no official word on when 1.4 comes out, right?

 

Ideally, when it is done. ;)

 

And that is another point that was raised at the Guild Summit - that the delay over SGRAs is due, in large part, to the desire of the Dev Team to handle the material right - to make each arc its own story consistent with the companion and the rest of the story material.

 

Companion stories tie into the main storyline, and other companion's stories, in a complicated manner, and I can see it taking significant writer time to do that. To my thinking, this would tend to support that SGRAs will be added for existing companion characters. Writing material for new companions alongside the rest would in many respects be simpler. Then again, in the latter case, we'd not see anything until new companions are rolled out, and I imagine those eager to pursue a SGRA with HK-51 are few. ;)

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And that is another point that was raised at the Guild Summit - that the delay over SGRAs is due, in large part, to the desire of the Dev Team to handle the material right - to make each arc its own story consistent with the companion and the rest of the story material.

 

Companion stories tie into the main storyline, and other companion's stories, in a complicated manner, and I can see it taking significant writer time to do that. To my thinking, this would tend to support that SGRAs will be added for existing companion characters. Writing material for new companions alongside the rest would in many respects be simpler. Then again, in the latter case, we'd not see anything until new companions are rolled out, and I imagine those eager to pursue a SGRA with HK-51 are few. ;)

Thank you. That's the most encouraging thing I've read here in a long time. :) It really is way, way too easy to get frustrated with the wait and lack of news, and not consider all the likely reasons behind the wait and lack of news. I've really enjoyed the OGRs, especially some of the variety - going from romancing Akaavi to Dorne to Kaliyo, now that's some whiplash - and I'm really looking forward to seeing how things go with the SGRs.

 

What's really going to be interesting is seeing how romances change depending on the gender of the PC. How do y'all think they might play out differently?

 

If HK-51 had a chassis like SCORPIO's I get a feeling the numbers would go up ^.~
"Declaration: Master, I cannot aim correctly with these protuberances on my chassis!" :D
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What's really going to be interesting is seeing how romances change depending on the gender of the PC. How do y'all think they might play out differently?

 

Hopefully it will be subtle and believable... As opposed to them all being "I've never been attracted to a person of the same gender as me before, until you!"

 

Ideally I'd like to see some bisexual and some exclusively homosexual companions... Sadly, I think they'll take the all bisexual route.

 

(If they make some exclusively homosexual, there will invariably be some players who will whine and cry that they're not available to their opposite sex PC - cf Samantha Traynor from ME3. Oddly enough, I haven't seen any girls whining over Steve Cortez....)

 

(By the way, some people might point out the hypocrisy of the above statement - don't we LGB people whine and cry about heterosexual characters we'd like our same sex attracted PCs to be involved with? Well, yes we do. This is a double standard, but one of those double standards that are necessary (at this point in history anyway, I long for the day when it is no longer needed) - heterosexual characters are a dime a dozen, but LGB characters are few and far between (far far far under-represented when compared to RL). That is as far as I'm going to go, lest this post get deleted for dealing with RL stuff.)

Edited by Zandilar
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Hopefully it will be subtle and believable... As opposed to them all being "I've never been attracted to a person of the same gender as me before, until you!"

 

I think that could be quite believable if it fits someone's backstory and they only do it for one character. If it's written well.

 

Ideally I'd like to see some bisexual and some exclusively homosexual companions... Sadly, I think they'll take the all bisexual route.

 

With respect, Zandilar, I wonder if this is more pessimism than anything that's making you say this.

 

Personally I don't think this'll be the case. The primary thing that was touted at the Summit (and I believe it was true) is that they're approaching SGRAs from a position of 'good writing'. Now that's as subjective as all hell but I don't think that the team that refuses to go the hero-sexual route is going to go het-and-bi-but-not-gay route. Those two things don't fit.

 

(If they make some exclusively homosexual, there will invariably be some players who will whine and cry that they're not available to their opposite sex PC - cf Samantha Traynor from ME3. Oddly enough, I haven't seen any girls whining over Steve Cortez....)

 

I will confess two things: Firstly, that I haven't seen complaining of this nature. Secondly, that I avoid reviews, fan-rants and forums dedicated to the feedback of games like ME3 specifically so that I don't see whining of this kind.

 

(By the way, some people might point out the hypocrisy of the above statement - don't we LGB people whine and cry about heterosexual characters we'd like our same sex attracted PCs to be involved with? Well, yes we do. This is a double standard, but one of those double standards that are necessary (at this point in history anyway, I long for the day when it is no longer needed) - heterosexual characters are a dime a dozen, but LGB characters are few and far between (far far far under-represented when compared to RL). That is as far as I'm going to go, lest this post get deleted for dealing with RL stuff.)

 

I disagree. I think that depends on the person. I don't consider it to be whining when I say I'd like my JK to end up dating Kira, and that I was greatly disappointed to find out this wasn't possible. The reason I don't think it's whining is because currently we have no alternatives to making such statements. I don't begrudge heterosexual NPCs, not at all. Morrigan won't get it on with female Wardens and I'm fine with that. But in DAO - and DA2 - there are alternatives. There are NPCs who will dig the PC. In SWTOR there's not.

 

If there were it would be a totally different matter. I don't see this situation as being hypocritical in the least because we have, as pro-SGRA players, been backed into a corner and told "NO."

 

To be clear I don't think that was BW:A's intention. But that's still what happened. So now we can only match our foiled expectations that a Bioware game would be LGBT-friendly to the companions that are currently in the game.

Edited by Kioma
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Ideally I'd like to see some bisexual and some exclusively homosexual companions... Sadly, I think they'll take the all bisexual route.

 

The guild summit speaker quite clearly says "We will not simply make the same companions available to both genders, that's not good writing"

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I think that could be quite believable if it fits someone's backstory and they only do it for one character. If it's written well.

 

I agree with you, which is why I didn't say they shouldn't do it at all, just that they shouldn't do it with all of them...

 

With respect, Zandilar, I wonder if this is more pessimism than anything that's making you say this.

 

Personally I don't think this'll be the case. The primary thing that was touted at the Summit (and I believe it was true) is that they're approaching SGRAs from a position of 'good writing'. Now that's as subjective as all hell but I don't think that the team that refuses to go the hero-sexual route is going to go het-and-bi-but-not-gay route. Those two things don't fit.

 

Sadly, I am a pessimist. I don't see PCsexual as the same as het-and-bi-but-not-gay. If the bi characters are really bi and well written, then they can fill the niche for those of us who want SGRAs, while still serving as OGRAs. It means overall less characters are needed. When you start adding exclusively same sex attracted characters to the game, you start exponentially increasing the numbers. They might be able to get away with making some of the superfluous male companions SGRAable, however, they would definitely need to add new female LIs because all existing female characters (with the exception of SCORPIO) are OGRA LIs.

 

I will confess two things: Firstly, that I haven't seen complaining of this nature. Secondly, that I avoid reviews, fan-rants and forums dedicated to the feedback of games like ME3 specifically so that I don't see whining of this kind.

 

I am sure you only stick to this thread on this forum too. Because General is about as nice and positive as the BSN ME3 forums. Believe me, if they make a new attractive female LI SGRA only, there are going to be players who will want her available to their male characters, and they will not be backwards in coming forwards about it (nor will they be particularly polite about it). (Women don't seem to be as bad on this, for some reason... I personally suspect that's because many women (straight or not) are fans of m/m slash stuff.)

 

I disagree. I think that depends on the person. I don't consider it to be whining when I say I'd like my JK to end up dating Kira, and that I was greatly disappointed to find out this wasn't possible. The reason I don't think it's whining is because currently we have no alternatives to making such statements. I don't begrudge heterosexual NPCs, not at all. Morrigan won't get it on with female Wardens and I'm fine with that. But in DAO - and DA2 - there are alternatives. There are NPCs who will dig the PC. In SWTOR there's not.

 

I don't think it's whining either (and that was probably the wrong word for me to use in the first place). And, what's more, I mostly agree with you. This was kind of the point I was trying to make.

 

If there were it would be a totally different matter. I don't see this situation as being hypocritical in the least because we have, as pro-SGRA players, been backed into a corner and told "NO."

 

To be clear I don't think that was BW:A's intention. But that's still what happened. So now we can only match our foiled expectations that a Bioware game would be LGBT-friendly to the companions that are currently in the game.

 

What happens if, when they add SGRAs to the game, the female ones are all new? Will that stop people from being disappointed they don't get their Kira or Mako or Watcher 2? No, it won't. Will it stop people from asking for them? No, probably not.

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The guild summit speaker quite clearly says "We will not simply make the same companions available to both genders, that's not good writing"

That's incorrect. The actual quote is "We were not willing to go in and just change all the dialogue to work for the other gender. That is not writing. That is not good storytelling."

 

And if you think about it, it would make no sense for BioWare to declare a companion off-limits to SGRs if they're an OGR option. That would mean there were no SGRs available for female PCs, as every single female companion is an OGR option. Except SCORPIO, but she's a droid. :D

 

This does, of course, assume SGRs will be with current companions, not new ones. But I'm holding fast to that assumption until BioWare says otherwise. :p

Edited by MusedMoose
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Ideally I'd like to see some bisexual and some exclusively homosexual companions... Sadly, I think they'll take the all bisexual route.

They are not going for the "all bisexual" route.

As far as I'm concerned, BW never did. DA2 (best game in this regard ) had all LIs available to both genders, only 1 was openly bi. The others, up to the player to stamp a label on their foreheads (or not)

 

 

(If they make some exclusively homosexual, there will invariably be some players who will whine and cry that they're not available to their opposite sex PC - cf Samantha Traynor from ME3. Oddly enough, I haven't seen any girls whining over Steve Cortez....)

 

(By the way, some people might point out the hypocrisy of the above statement - don't we LGB people whine and cry about heterosexual characters we'd like our same sex attracted PCs to be involved with? Well, yes we do. This is a double standard, but one of those double standards that are necessary (at this point in history anyway, I long for the day when it is no longer needed) - heterosexual characters are a dime a dozen, but LGB characters are few and far between (far far far under-represented when compared to RL). That is as far as I'm going to go, lest this post get deleted for dealing with RL stuff.)

 

First, I kinda resent the wording of "cry" and "whine" ( which are insulting) since you're basically implying that you hold yourself above them and consider those complaints and "wants" as an irrational child's whim disregarding them from the get go.

 

Second, what's the deal with "exclusive" content in a game ? What's so great about it ? I never understood that.

A game is supposed to bring entertaintment to a lot of people. The more people can enjoy the content the better. More options for everybody, better. IMO, of course.

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Second, what's the deal with "exclusive" content in a game ? What's so great about it ? I never understood that.

A game is supposed to bring entertaintment to a lot of people. The more people can enjoy the content the better. More options for everybody, better. IMO, of course.

 

Agreed.

 

They can do LGBT characters that are non-romanceable and also provide "herosexual" LIs so I can do a romance story arc with the person I want to for my PC. If you are playing a heterosexual PC, you typically have this privilege (ME3 being the only exception, but there were so many heterosexual romances that I don't think most people cared about romancing two side characters added in the last game).

 

I look at this from a "role-playing" perspective...I'd like to have as many RP options as possible to increase the chance that I can play through the story with my character in the way that I want to in order to maximize my enjoyment of the often painful leveling experience. It seems Zandilar is looking at it with "representation" in mind. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive though...again, non-romance companions can provide representation.

 

I also don't see them ever doing romances with companions that are SGRA exclusive in TOR.

Edited by stuffystuffs
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They are not going for the "all bisexual" route.

As far as I'm concerned, BW never did. DA2 (best game in this regard ) had all LIs available to both genders, only 1 was openly bi. The others, up to the player to stamp a label on their foreheads (or not)

 

Never thought of that but you made me realise that they could actually make them (via the conversation) be Gay when the player is of the same sex and decides to choose the [flirt] options and straight when the PC is opposite character. After all it does not matter that your Mako is darker skinned than mine ( via companion customisation) why should it matter that mine be straight and yours gay?

 

This would not prevent some (Kaliyo ?) to be bi as their story already suggests it.

 

On a side note some mentionned ME (1 2 3) about SGR. One thing that I liked in that serie is the way Jack actually acknowledge the advances of the female shepard and turns her down. I do not mean that shepard liked to be turned down but I thought that it was good writing to actually deal with the situation as adults would.

 

P.S.: In some post it seems ( to me) implied that wanting SGR is linked with being GLB as a player. To me it is not. It has to do with the charaters I play not who I am. I am a male and it does not prevent me from playing female characters. I am straight why would that mean that I am not interested in playing charaters that are GLB and therfore wanting the SGR?

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First, I kinda resent the wording of "cry" and "whine" ( which are insulting) since you're basically implying that you hold yourself above them and consider those complaints and "wants" as an irrational child's whim disregarding them from the get go.

 

Whilst I do see your point I think perhaps you're seeing insult where it's not intended (though, of course, I can't speak for Zandilar and might be wrong).

 

Second, what's the deal with "exclusive" content in a game ? What's so great about it ? I never understood that.

A game is supposed to bring entertaintment to a lot of people. The more people can enjoy the content the better. More options for everybody, better. IMO, of course.

 

I've no issue with exclusive content and yet I seem to be in the minority of players who actually enjoyed the wide options of DA2. In a game as big as an MMO I can see the possibility of exclusive content and plenty of options for everyone.

 

The 'deal' with exclusive content, though, is that there's this belief (which in my mind is slightly misplaced) that a character can't be straight for one player, gay for another and bi for a third and still maintain 'believability'. The only three ways to maintain believability in the face of this belief are, of course: 1) to make some people miss out; 2) to include a buttload of exclusive characters of many types; or 3) both.

 

I personally don't hold with it. The rules for making a character believable in the interactive, private world of PC-to-NPC relationships is by necessity different to the rules for making a believable character in a non-interactive story. That's why erotic fanfic occurs. It's the process of making a non-interactive story into an interactive experience. Sure, there's some terrible fanfic out there but there's some extremely good stuff as well; one could see the character options in, say, DA2 as being the midpoint between the two.

 

It's no more or less believable to say Fenris is straight than it is to say he's gay or bi, or that Kira is straight, or lesbian, or bi. They can legitimately be whichever is appropriate to the PC, and this can be done well. It's the Choose Your Own Adventure of relationships. See, I know what they said at the Summit and I disagree with it. 'That's not writing; that's not good storytelling'. It can be bad storytelling but it can also be good depending on the quality of the writing and (an important factor the writers have no control over) the willingness of the player to let themselves be absorbed into the story*. To summarily dismiss the option is their choice, of course; it's their game and in the end we can only offer our suggestions. But I think it's vastly oversimplifying the matter.

 

* = By this I mean, simply, that it doesn't matter how good a writer you are or the approach you take if the reader/player has either no capacity or no willingness to suspend disbelief. Some people are tremendously picky and with the audience as wide as it is for this game there will always be some people who are 'disappointed' even if only because they don't want relationships in the game at all.

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P.S.: In some post it seems ( to me) implied that wanting SGR is linked with being GLB as a player.

 

Though I'm straight I associate openly with LGBT people so the politics of gay rights are a big deal to me personally, but I have to agree with your point: At the end of the day, I want my characters to be able to be gay because that's part of their character.

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P.S.: In some post it seems ( to me) implied that wanting SGR is linked with being GLB as a player. To me it is not. It has to do with the charaters I play not who I am. I am a male and it does not prevent me from playing female characters. I am straight why would that mean that I am not interested in playing charaters that are GLB and therfore wanting the SGR?

 

I just like watching 2 ladies kiss. Giggity. :D

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They are not going for the "all bisexual" route.

I'm sorry if this seems nitpicky, but how do you know? BioWare hasn't said what companions will be available for SGRs, let alone how SGRs will be handled. It's possible all current love interests will be available to PCs of both genders, it's possible they won't. As far as I know, BW hasn't said anything either way.

 

If they have said something, and that's what you're basing your statement on, please, provide a link because I know lots of us want to know. :)

 

Though I'm straight I associate openly with LGBT people so the politics of gay rights are a big deal to me personally, but I have to agree with your point: At the end of the day, I want my characters to be able to be gay because that's part of their character.

This, very much this. I have friends all up and down the entire Kinsey scale, and gay rights is a big deal for me as well. But in the game, it really is just all about the characters I'm playing. I know that my BH has always known she's gay and never understood the concept of being in the closet, while my JK is big and strong and awkward, and how she feels about her sexuality is part of that so she needs Kira to help figure herself out. Please, BW. You wouldn't want my JK falling to the dark side due to not being able to be with Kira, would you? :D

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@wainot-keel

 

I would love it if they didn't go all bisexual, but the amount of work involved going down a route where all (or the majority) of SGRAs are exclusively homosexual would preclude, IMHO, them from going the no bisexual route. I expect we will see a mix, with the majority being bisexual.

 

Also, I wasn't meaning to be insulting with the whining and the crying, because I don't hold myself above everyone else. I know I can whine and cry with the best of them, and I did when it was revealed a certain character in ME3 was not bisexual (while her male counterpart was).

 

Re: Exclusive romances.

This is more to do with realism than anything else. It's not realistic for every romancable character to be available and open to both genders. That is not how it works in reality. A bisexual person is not the same as a lesbian or a gay or even a straight person, and the Star Wars universe has never argued that everyone is bisexual (because we know for a fact that the vast majority of romantic relationships depicted in the Star Wars universe (both in main canon and EU) are male/female without reference to same sex relationships or even attractions).

 

Now, it is probably possible to write all the romantic storylines from the PCsexual view (Kira is straight for male JKs who flirt with her, and lesbian for female JKs who flirt with her, and non-sexual for male and female JKs who don't flirt with her), it is probably even possible to make this remotely realistic (especially with significantly different dialogue depending on which of those three options one takes with her). What it is not possible to do, however, is stop people being unable to comprehend that their play of SWTOR is different to someone else's. So some people just get stuck on the idea that Kira is straight and will find that their knowledge that she can be lesbian or non-sexual for other players breaks their own immersion. I personally think that's a very silly thing, however, that doesn't make it any less real for some people. (And I might add, it's even sillier in the face of the fact that we can significantly alter the physical appearance of our companions.)

 

(Another thing to note: PCsexual usually turns out to be the same dialogue with different pronouns, which is the main issue people have with PCsexual characters, why they say they're not realistic. This is the bad writing they were talking about at the guild summit.)

 

@Stuffystuffs

 

I have seen more than one person asking Bioware to make Samantha Traynor bisexual, because they want their dude!Shep to "bone" her (because she's both attractive and has a sexy British accent). So people DID care about it.

 

I'd also rather they didn't do non-romancable LGBT characters. Bioware has a HORRENDOUS track record when it comes to non-straight-non-LI NPCs. They generally come across as very camp and stereotype ridden. Now, if they could prove me wrong, I'd be over the moon. (Also, they have to be able to depict them in a realistic fashion. A stranger in the street is not going to introduce themselves like "Hi, I'm Zandilar, and I'm lesbian!")

 

And you're right, I am looking at it from a representation perspective. That is because I think representation is extremely important. I also look at it from a realism point of view - which I am aware might seem silly given that we're talking about a universe with laser swords and space magic... But in order to relate to the setting, the people in that setting still have to be human at a certain level. That means that they need to have traits that we can relate to - which brings us right back to representation.

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Re: Exclusive romances.

This is more to do with realism than anything else. It's not realistic for every romancable character to be available and open to both genders. That is not how it works in reality.

 

It isn't reality. It's an interactive game set in a galaxy-wide community in a different 'reality' to ours. It's fiction. People who claim it's 'not realistic' for their NPC, available to their male JK, to also be available to someone else's female JK is looking at metaplot - cross-dimensional metaplot. To put it in a DA2 way, Hawke is neither a time traveller nor a cross-dimensional acrobat. What is happening to one Hawke is not happening to another.

 

Similarly, the experiences of different SWTOR PCs are going to be inherently different. If you look at the matter from the PC level it makes no difference if all your companions can be romanced by one gender, the other gender or both.

 

A bisexual person is not the same as a lesbian or a gay or even a straight person,

 

Correction: a bisexual person is not the same orientation as a gay or straight person. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not claiming bisexuals are inherently different in ways other than orientation.

 

and the Star Wars universe has never argued that everyone is bisexual (because we know for a fact that the vast majority of romantic relationships depicted in the Star Wars universe (both in main canon and EU) are male/female without reference to same sex relationships or even attractions).

 

Another correction: the Star Wars universe has never claimed anything about the sexualities of the majority of the population. We've seen depictions almost (almost) solely of heterosexual relationships, yes, but that only leads us to assume the majority of the Star Wars universe is heterosexual. Until an official statement comes out to the effect we cannot know whether the relationships we've seen are indicative of the setting or whether it's indicative of them attempting to sell their product in a world of primarily heterosexual humans.

 

What it is not possible to do, however, is stop people being unable to comprehend that their play of SWTOR is different to someone else's.

 

But that's beyond any writer's control, and is on the onus of the player.

 

So some people just get stuck on the idea that Kira is straight and will find that their knowledge that she can be lesbian or non-sexual for other players breaks their own immersion. I personally think that's a very silly thing, however, that doesn't make it any less real for some people. (And I might add, it's even sillier in the face of the fact that we can significantly alter the physical appearance of our companions.)

 

I think it's silly too, and yes, it's going to happen - just like there are people (a minority) rampantly declaring that romances shouldn't be in the game at all. What breaks immersion for one person doesn't for another - again, this is the player's business and nothing anyone but they can control. I don't necessarily see it as being any kind of indicator of bad writing (which will break immersion for most people on its own, but even then doesn't always; see Twilight).

 

(Another thing to note: PCsexual usually turns out to be the same dialogue with different pronouns, which is the main issue people have with PCsexual characters, why they say they're not realistic. This is the bad writing they were talking about at the guild summit.)

 

But they didn't say 'That isn't always writing; that [often isn't[/i] good storytelling'. Me, I know that's what they were talking about at the Summit and I still disagree. Anything can be written well or poorly. They summarily dismissed a viable option based on a belief that it's never good storytelling, never writing, and I feel I must disagree with them.

 

A story about a domineering man who embarrasses, offends and tricks a woman into assuming some level of submission before and after marrying him could be written horribly indeed, yet Shakespeare managed The Taming of the Shrew pretty damn well.

 

I have seen more than one person asking Bioware to make Samantha Traynor bisexual, because they want their dude!Shep to "bone" her (because she's both attractive and has a sexy British accent). So people DID care about it.

 

Wow. Lame. I really liked that she was out of reach of my manShep.

 

And you're right, I am looking at it from a representation perspective. That is because I think representation is extremely important. I also look at it from a realism point of view - which I am aware might seem silly given that we're talking about a universe with laser swords and space magic... But in order to relate to the setting, the people in that setting still have to be human at a certain level. That means that they need to have traits that we can relate to - which brings us right back to representation.

 

I agree a level of humanity is required for players to relate to the characters. Definitely a good point. But I don't think that proportions of sexual preferences within the galaxy-wide community need to be similar to our world's, not at all. If someone breaks immersion because there's more bisexuals than heterosexuals then they're not looking into the world very deeply at all.

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It isn't reality. It's an interactive game set in a galaxy-wide community in a different 'reality' to ours. It's fiction. People who claim it's 'not realistic' for their NPC, available to their male JK, to also be available to someone else's female JK is looking at metaplot - cross-dimensional metaplot. To put it in a DA2 way, Hawke is neither a time traveller nor a cross-dimensional acrobat. What is happening to one Hawke is not happening to another.

 

Similarly, the experiences of different SWTOR PCs are going to be inherently different. If you look at the matter from the PC level it makes no difference if all your companions can be romanced by one gender, the other gender or both.

 

You touch on this point of my again later on, so I'll just briefly comment here. One could write a story that has no attachment to reality at all, but no one would read it... Or if they did, they might find it very difficult to comprehend.

 

Correction: a bisexual person is not the same orientation as a gay or straight person. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not claiming bisexuals are inherently different in ways other than orientation.

 

Quite right. That is what I meant. You could even take it to its extreme conclusion and say that one person is not the same as another person - people all see and experience the world from their own perspective, and since we're all unique, our own perspectives are so too.

 

Here's an example - If a bisexual woman is involved with a man, she's still attracted to other women. However, a straight woman (also involved with a man) wouldn't be attracted to other women, and might behave quite differently around a woman who flirts with her than the bisexual - even if both are monogamous (because people have different levels of what sort of behavior is acceptable in a relationship, of course).

 

So what I am saying with that is that you can't write a bisexual person in the same way as you'd write a straight person or a lesbian/gay person (nor can you write a lesbian/gay person the same way you'd write straight or bisexual people, nor can you write a straight person the same way you'd write bisexual or gay/lesbian people). The fact of their sexual orientation will make them react differently in the same set of circumstances.

 

This is where PCsexual characters tend to fall down. They don't behave like any particular sexual orientation, they only ever seem to be attracted to the PC. If they have experienced other relationships in the past, the ones that come up tend to be heterosexual, or they only come up with the specific orientation (for example, Isabela's past relationship with Zevran comes up at some point in conversation, Ander's past relationship with Karl only comes up with a male Hawke). Note, though, I said "tend to be". This is not the way it works all the time (ie Leliana's relationship with Marjolaine, comes up with both genders in the course of the romance - however it is left open to interpretation exactly what the relationship between them was).

 

 

Another correction: the Star Wars universe has never claimed anything about the sexualities of the majority of the population. We've seen depictions almost (almost) solely of heterosexual relationships, yes, but that only leads us to assume the majority of the Star Wars universe is heterosexual. Until an official statement comes out to the effect we cannot know whether the relationships we've seen are indicative of the setting or whether it's indicative of them attempting to sell their product in a world of primarily heterosexual humans.

 

Very true. Though I will say that the one or two exceptions both occur in EU (in a game and novels) and not in top level canon for the Star Wars universe. The main SW universe has been purely heterosexual (and very tamely so too).

 

Reality would suggest that there are non-heterosexual people in the SW universe, and probably even creatures and beings who don't fall into our neat categories of sexual orientation and gender expression (aliens who have no sexes, for example, or who have more than two sexes) - but this reality thing... lets not bother with that, right? It is fiction, after all. ;) (Sorry, I had to... I meant it as a light hearted tease, not to be insulting or anything - but you can't argue against reality on the one hand, then for it on the other. Besides which, an argument against reality could be used to justify no homosexuals just as much as it could be used to justify all bisexuals.)

 

I think it's silly too, and yes, it's going to happen - just like there are people (a minority) rampantly declaring that romances shouldn't be in the game at all. What breaks immersion for one person doesn't for another - again, this is the player's business and nothing anyone but they can control. I don't necessarily see it as being any kind of indicator of bad writing (which will break immersion for most people on its own, but even then doesn't always; see Twilight).

 

I am not saying that they should cater to every individual player's whims (because that just wouldn't work). I really only mention this because it is a factor that Bioware should take into account when writing characters. They need to be careful to write the characters in such a way as to be realistic and relatable, and that means taking into account whether or not their writing can overcome some people's inability to overlook the meta aspects of PCsexual LIs.

 

 

But they didn't say 'That isn't always writing; that [often isn't[/i] good storytelling'. Me, I know that's what they were talking about at the Summit and I still disagree. Anything can be written well or poorly. They summarily dismissed a viable option based on a belief that it's never good storytelling, never writing, and I feel I must disagree with them.

 

Well I agree with them in principle. If you're going to write the same character as being attracted to PCs of both genders, then unless you're writing them from the ground up as bisexual, you have to effectively write two separate characters. Lesbian Kira won't behave the same way as straight Kira, there will be differences both subtle and obvious - they will have slightly different backgrounds, because they would have had different prior relationships (of both the romantic and non-romantic kind), therefore different experiences, and therefore they'd be different people (with some similarities, of course, but nurture does effect who we are as much as nature). If you don't do this, if you just change the pronouns in the romance? That's bad writing and bad character design.

 

Wow. Lame. I really liked that she was out of reach of my manShep.

 

Most of them react rather defensively when you tell them no too, no matter how polite you are about it.

 

I agree a level of humanity is required for players to relate to the characters. Definitely a good point. But I don't think that proportions of sexual preferences within the galaxy-wide community need to be similar to our world's, not at all. If someone breaks immersion because there's more bisexuals than heterosexuals then they're not looking into the world very deeply at all.

 

Of course not. I'd rather see a more concentrated number of bisexuals and characters with individual sexual orientations than an entire cast of PCsexuals, though.

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You touch on this point of my again later on, so I'll just briefly comment here. One could write a story that has no attachment to reality at all, but no one would read it... Or if they did, they might find it very difficult to comprehend.

 

Aaaaaaand I never, at any stage, said it should have no connection to reality. I'm saying that we can't assume things are absolutely true in the Star Wars universe simply because they happen to be apparent in our world. I'm primarily sick of people saying 'there's X% of gay people in our world so there may only be X% in Star Wars - or less'. It doesn't hold water on any level.

 

Here's an example - If a bisexual woman is involved with a man, she's still attracted to other women. However, a straight woman (also involved with a man) wouldn't be attracted to other women, and might behave quite differently around a woman who flirts with her than the bisexual - even if both are monogamous (because people have different levels of what sort of behavior is acceptable in a relationship, of course).

 

But you can safely assume that the individual you're talking about will react in a similar way if someone they aren't interested in flirts with them - whether they're disinterested because of sexual preference or personality, or hair colour or pre-existing relationships, or whatever. That's not, behaviourally speaking, such a stretch.

 

The fact of their sexual orientation will make them react differently in the same set of circumstances.

 

I would like to agree and disagree. Because, you know, I can't do anything easy-like. I agree that you can't write two people the same and have it seem realistic but I think this has as much or more to do with their overarching personality type than it does their sexuality. You have a gregarious, flirty and completely straight woman hit on by a woman and they might react quite well, though ultimately to let the person flirting with them down. You have an aggressive, antisocial, hostile straight woman and put her in the same situation and she's almost guaranteed to act differently.

 

This is not the way it works all the time (ie Leliana's relationship with Marjolaine, comes up with both genders in the course of the romance - however it is left open to interpretation exactly what the relationship between them was).

 

I pretty much agree with this and would like to point out that Marjolaine is a non-romanceable NPC that doesn't cleave to stereotypes of sexuality. But then she seems to use sexuality as a weapon as willingly as a bow or blade.

 

Very true. Though I will say that the one or two exceptions both occur in EU (in a game and novels) and not in top level canon for the Star Wars universe. The main SW universe has been purely heterosexual (and very tamely so too).

 

If you claim accidental incestuous attraction to be tame, I guess. But I do see your point.

 

Reality would suggest that there are non-heterosexual people in the SW universe, and probably even creatures and beings who don't fall into our neat categories of sexual orientation and gender expression (aliens who have no sexes, for example, or who have more than two sexes) - but this reality thing... lets not bother with that, right? It is fiction, after all. ;) (Sorry, I had to... I meant it as a light hearted tease, not to be insulting or anything - but you can't argue against reality on the one hand, then for it on the other. Besides which, an argument against reality could be used to justify no homosexuals just as much as it could be used to justify all bisexuals.)

 

<sighs> I wasn't arguing reality on that point, so your light-hearted jibe is misplaced. Whether those examples of LGBT content are top-level canon or not isn't relevant because we're talking about a game that's not top-level canon. I was arguing current, confirmed Star Wars canon material - not movie-canon, but still canon.

 

In any case you're taking the opinion that I was arguing against reality in its totality earlier, which I was not doing, at any point, ever. I'm pointing out that there are assumptions being made due to interaction with our world that may not be applicable, and saying they're anything but assumption is inaccurate.

 

That's my issue. Right there. People making assumptions and claiming them to be 100% undeniably accurate - which I have seen people do on both sides of the fence in this thread (though mainly, I have to say, on the 'no-SGRAs' side). They're not. Only Bioware: Austin can say what's 100% accurate in the canon of SWTOR - and because that's the canon we're all actually talking about, that's the canon we should be heeding. Not top-level canon, because SWTOR will never fully cleave to movie-canon.

 

They need to be careful to write the characters in such a way as to be realistic and relatable, and that means taking into account whether or not their writing can overcome some people's inability to overlook the meta aspects of PCsexual LIs.

 

But they can't. That's the thing. They can't overcome that in everyone, and can't even begin to predict what will set some people off. Yes, it's the conundrum they face, but what some people find 'realistic' will vary from other people's opinions of 'realistic', and that's completely avoiding the 'relatable' angle (which is a lot stickier).

 

Well I agree with them in principle. If you're going to write the same character as being attracted to PCs of both genders, then unless you're writing them from the ground up as bisexual, you have to effectively write two separate characters. Lesbian Kira won't behave the same way as straight Kira, there will be differences both subtle and obvious - they will have slightly different backgrounds, because they would have had different prior relationships (of both the romantic and non-romantic kind), therefore different experiences, and therefore they'd be different people (with some similarities, of course, but nurture does effect who we are as much as nature). If you don't do this, if you just change the pronouns in the romance? That's bad writing and bad character design.

 

That's an opinion. It's not even necessarily one I disagree with, but it is an opinion. Currently in the game Kira's reactions are only of minimal and temporary difference if you perform overtly Dark Side acts or do stuff she really dislikes and even then you can give her a couple of companion items and make it all better. How believable or relatable is that? If they go the mid-ground and give a few differing lines of dialogue for straight-Kira than for gay-Kira than for bi-Kira then they won't be short-changing SGRAs in comparison to LS-DS reactions in the slightest.

 

I agree it needs more than simple pronoun changes, but I don't agree that it needs to be from-scratch character building, particularly because people often find their personality types colour their sexuality (sometimes heavily) in terms of desirable/undesirable encounters.

 

Most of them react rather defensively when you tell them no too, no matter how polite you are about it.

 

Nobody likes rejection, I guess.

 

Of course not. I'd rather see a more concentrated number of bisexuals and characters with individual sexual orientations than an entire cast of PCsexuals, though.

 

Me too. I'd prefer there were dozens of potential companions, particularly if it wasn't a given that you could get them all (or, even better, occasionally were forced to choose). An unpopular opinion, maybe, but I'd love that additional interaction. 'Samara or Morinth? You choose.' Loved it.

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