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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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Maybe they could implement another NPC akin to the Skill Mentor? Pay a fine (first time costs nothing, of course.) to reset the story progress of companions, but gain no additional benefits such as experience or credits from them?

!

 

I also want to go on record as saying this idea is #$%$ing brilliant. Right now my only romance option is DOC, and I am not going to throw away my Jedi oath over him if there is a slim chance I could get someone more redeeming in a future content update.

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I feel that this feature must be toggle-able. That way those that want same sex content can turn it on, those that don't can turn it off. That is preserving the right to choose for people that are pro *or* anti.

 

As to having the option to flirt or not in the NPC discussions as a viable option to avoid the same sex content, those of us that are offended by same sex content, or don't want to expose our children to same sex content, simply want to be able to not have that content. By the same token, those that want it should be able to have it. But this controversial content shouldn't be forced on people. With two toggles, one for relationships, another for same sex relationships, we all get what we want and no one is forced to do anything. Problem solved.

 

If this feature is not toggle-able, my only option to not have this content will be to cancel my family's 4 subs. I would much prefer the option to toggle the feature off.

 

Don't see why we can't try to make this game something we can all enjoy without forcing something on people who just want to play a game.

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I am not saying there should not be an alternative. I'm saying that I do not believe it stupid or offensive that heterosexuality is in something by default. Mario chases after Peach, that is not offensive or discimination. Ditto with a hundred other video games.

 

Actually, it kind of is offensive if one considers heterosexuality a default. Not just does it marginalize LGBT persons, it's a faulty way of looking at the issue. There are many more brown-eyed people than blue-eyed in the world, but that does not make brown somehow the default eye color of humanity. Sometimes society makes things seem like they should be default and makes being different difficult - it does not mean that it is either right or true.

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I feel that this feature must be toggle-able. That way those that want same sex content can turn it on, those that don't can turn it off. That is preserving the right to choose for people that are pro *or* anti.

 

As to having the option to flirt or not in the NPC discussions as a viable option to avoid the same sex content, those of us that are offended by same sex content, or don't want to expose our children to same sex content, simply want to be able to not have that content. By the same token, those that want it should be able to have it. But this controversial content shouldn't be forced on people. With two toggles, one for relationships, another for same sex relationships, we all get what we want and no one is forced to do anything. Problem solved.

 

If this feature is not toggle-able, my only option to not have this content will be to cancel my family's 4 subs. I would much prefer the option to toggle the feature off.

 

Don't see why we can't try to make this game something we can all enjoy without forcing something on people who just want to play a game.

 

I...

Just...

*sigh*

 

Someone tag me out and handle this one.

Potential talking points;

Murder

Slavery

Genocide

Betrayal

Torture

Non-consensual relations

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I am not saying there should not be an alternative. I'm saying that I do not believe it stupid or offensive that heterosexuality is in something by default. Mario chases after Peach, that is not offensive or discimination. Ditto with a hundred other video games.

 

I think the percentage of people who find the existence of heterosexual content offensive is... small. What's offensive to some is that it's the only content (and in some cases, it's very aggressively presented, like the Male smuggler). It irritates people because it's so in-your-face.

 

What's also offensive is the idea that SGRAs are some special category more deserving of a toggle than OGRAs (i.e., the people asking for only a SGRA toggle). A "all romance off" toggle is, I think most agree, completely fair. Perhaps unnecessary, but fair.

 

For the record, whenever any of this content is actually implemented, there WILL be a big thread to complain about how it was done (and that it was done at all), guaranteed. That's just the nature of game forums. :p

Edited by Jenovan
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I am not saying there should not be an alternative. I'm saying that I do not believe it stupid or offensive that heterosexuality is in something by default. Mario chases after Peach, that is not offensive or discimination. Ditto with a hundred other video games.

 

Come on, now. Are you really honestly not able to understand why a toggle is offensive?

 

First of all, let's be realistic about elements like FRC. People like that are often put forward as justification for a toggle, but these people are not the target audience, and a toggle won't do anything to appease them.

 

Bioware can either be inclusive or not. It's going to upset people either way, trying to hold the middle ground will just anger everyone one. A toggle will be offensive to many people but will not appease the elements in society who have made it their mission to maintain "purity."

 

How could it? They're not gamers, they don't play the game? They won't know any different whether or not a toggle is there.

 

Some people claim they'll be offended by having to deal with same sex content. Good thing for them they don't have to. The option is there, if they find same sex relationships unpleasant they can just go ahead and not engage in them.

 

The toggle doesn't add anything.

 

Would it be nice to have the option to turn off all sexual content and not have to deal with any of it? Maybe. I could see how some people might be uncomfortable with how strongly Jaxo comes on to the male trooper. I could also see how people would find the idea of a romance with Elara Dorne upsetting, given the imbalance in their relationship created by the military situation. I'm sure there are other examples.

 

Except Bioware decided these elements are in and you can't toggle them off. People who aren't comfortable with it just have to deal. No one's really asked for the ability to toggle it off that I'm aware of except in defending themselves from the accusation that toggleable SS relationships are discriminatory.

 

So anyway, for good or for ill Bioware has included all this sexual content with plenty of situations that might make plenty of people uncomfortable and your character will simply have to navigate it.

 

But suddenly now that same sex relationships are on the table we need a toggle. That's the critical threshold where this might all be too much for some people and they need to option to put it out of sight and out of mind?

 

You really don't understand why that's offensive?

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Actually, it kind of is offensive if one considers heterosexuality a default. Not just does it marginalize LGBT persons, it's a faulty way of looking at the issue. There are many more brown-eyed people than blue-eyed in the world, but that does not make brown somehow the default eye color of humanity. Sometimes society makes things seem like they should be default and makes being different difficult - it does not mean that it is either right or true.

 

The problem with your analogy is that in both cases... eye color does not change the fact that eyes are fully function and see the same. They are not perceived as equal function, they ARE equal function.

 

I'm going to once again say at this point I am for SGRA's in game. I feel the need to say that again, because I KNOW someone is going to take that as ignorant/homophobic/bigoted/etc.

 

I can be perfectly tolerance and accepting of something without forgetting the fundamental science behind it. Therefore it isn't offensive if is in the fault in something. I mean, you can be offended if you WANT to... but that doesn't make it discrimination.

Edited by Sireene
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WHERE IS KHEM VAL ON YOUR LIST? THIS IS PREJUDICE!

 

Lol jk.

 

I choose option 3.

 

You know. I do have to answer this and agree.

I'm avidly for the same sex flirt features in SWTOR. What confuses me

and seems to be missed by most is that your flirt choices are all human

based. Except for Vette, but then she's Twi'lek and there for fanboy cast

for just that "slave girl" stereotype reason.

 

Non human characters are not toggled for romance. Which makes no sense.

Why wouldn't Gault try and flirt with a female BH?

 

In the future I would hope that they include non human romance features as

well. That choice seems more prejudiced and out of place for Star Wars than

the same sex romance options.

 

Star Wars has always seemed to me to be a universe kind of free of our

Earthly taboos. Yes there is species descrimination in Star Wars, but we're

talking about a vast universe of thousands of worlds. I would imagine that

Twi'leks (as everyone else in the galaxy) find Hutts repulsive, and yet

Twi'lek females are always seen as slaves to them. Yet in the game I

see cross species relationships between NPCs all the time.

 

Just wondering if it was an oversight or deliberate.

 

Oh, and while we are talking about companions, can a dev please make it

possible to say no to accepting some companions. If you are a BH and have

Skadge, you will know what I mean. If you didn't want to put a blaster bolt

through his head when he forces his way on your ship, you deserved him lol

 

Just saying.

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@Raiellyn If you disagree with the plot points of the game, the option is to not play it. We all have that option. But if you find the list you made so disagreeable in your fiction, why are you playing this game? Why expose yourself to something you disagree with?

 

I think we can all get along, but I think Bioware needs to handle this properly to avoid offending people. Homosexual is a category as much as heterosexual is. I still think the two toggles idea is the best one, but maybe they should label them 'Allow Heterosexual Relationships' and 'Allow Homosexual Relationships' and then both on would allow Bi. Would that be better?

 

Those that want to add same sex content need to understand that some people simply don't want same sex content. If I can respect your wishes to have it added, why can't you respect my wishes to not have to have it if I don't want it? If this content gets added, Bioware needs to be fair about it.

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@Raiellyn If you disagree with the plot points of the game, the option is to not play it. We all have that option. But if you find the list you made so disagreeable in your fiction, why are you playing this game? Why expose yourself to something you disagree with?

 

First, read the quote. Now read it again, please. With the inclusion of SGRA's, the exact same thing could be said to you.

 

To avoid drifting from the topic at-hand and into a debate of real life, I will stifle my protests beyond this.

 

Fine. Same-gender relationships are a touchy-subject. So, you can toggle them off.

 

But what about the Empire classes? They commonly deal with darker topics, such as the mentioned slavery, murder, and other mayhem. We should be able to toggle that too, so my children don't have to see it.

 

So that leaves Republic class. Oh, wait. You can still be dark-side there, too. Hm... I guess there should be a toggle for that as well.

 

And as for the last part of your post, there already IS a method of not having that content enter your game. You do not select it. At the absolute worst, you may have to turn down an NPC who casually flirts with you, just as the LGBT gamers already have to deal with. Demanding that there *must* be a way to toggle off that content entirely when you don't have that option for ANY other content (aside from the mature language filter, which affects the community more than the game) is not logical, in any sense of the word.

Edited by Sireene
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@Raiellyn If you don't want to play dark side, play republic. If you don't like PvP play on a PvE server. If you just don't like the content of the game, don't play the game. And if forced same sex content is added, yes, I certainly have the choice to not play.

 

My point is that by implementing a two toggle approach we all get what we want; no relationships, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual. You play your way, I'll play mine. If they present choices so we can choose how relationships are implemented, we can all set it up to our own preferences. I don't see how forcing same sex relationships on me is fair, anymore than forcing opposite gender relationships on anyone is fair.

 

If handled properly, this can enhance your gameplay and not detract from mine. That'd be a win-win situation. To my way of thinking that is the best possible outcome.

Edited by Sireene
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You know. I do have to answer this and agree. I'm avidly for the same sex flirt features in SWTOR. What confuses me and seems to be missed by most is that your flirt choices are all human based. Except for Vette, but then she's Twi'lek and there for fanboy cast for just that "slave girl" stereotype reason.

 

Non human characters are not toggled for romance. Which makes no sense. Why wouldn't Gault try and flirt with a female BH?

 

In the future I would hope that they include non human romance features as well. That choice seems more prejudiced and out of place for Star Wars than the same sex romance options.

 

Venturing off-topic...

 

There are a few other non-human romanceable companions in addition to Vette:

- Kaliyo

- Aric

- Nadia

- Ashara

- Vector, sort of... :p

 

I'd be curious about the [flirt]able NPCs, though. Most of them seem to be human, but I don't know if the ratio reflects the ratio of all human or alien NPCs in-game.

Edited by Sireene
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Those that want to add same sex content need to understand that some people simply don't want same sex content. If I can respect your wishes to have it added, why can't you respect my wishes to not have to have it if I don't want it? If this content gets added, Bioware needs to be fair about it.

You don't need a toggle not to see the content. You just need to choose either of the two conversational prompts not marked [Flirt].

 

That is the option already in game for those not wishing to explore opposite-sex content. No one has been suggesting a toggle to hide that. The only context in which hiding story content with a toggle is same-gender romance or flirts.

 

You are asking for an option to be intolerant. I don't think it is a good idea to cater to that.

Edited by Uluain
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@Raiellyn If you don't want to play dark side, play republic. If you don't like PvP play on a PvE server. If you just don't like the content of the game, don't play the game. And if forced same sex content is added, yes, I certainly have the choice to not play.

 

My point is that by implementing a two toggle approach we all get what we want; no relationships, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual. You play your way, I'll play mine. If they present choices so we can choose how relationships are implemented, we can all set it up to our own preferences. I don't see how forcing same sex relationships on me is fair, anymore than forcing opposite gender relationships on anyone is fair.

 

If handled properly, this can enhance your gameplay and not detract from mine. That'd be a win-win situation. To my way of thinking that is the best possible outcome.

 

First paragraph; If you don't want to play a same-gender romance, choose the other two options on the dialogue wheel. If that is not sufficient, then by all means, feel free to cancel your subscription to the game. And I don't mean that as a snide remark; if you truly have a problem with *anything* in the game, it is your right to not support them.

 

Second paragraph; This is where your phrasing caused a misunderstanding. You only mentioned having a toggle for the SGRA content. While I do not support the idea of the toggle being implemented at all, I can agree that having the options to filter through every part of the content (not just turning off the SGRA, or romance entirely.) is a nice compromise. Not one I like, but one I can accept.

Edited by Sireene
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@Raiellyn Actually, if you read any of my posts in this thread you'll see I advocate a two toggle approach. My original description of those two toggles could be taken as offensive, and for that I apologize, but the concept is consistent; the game needs to be configurable in a way to not offend anyone on the issue of sexuality (as far as other issues go, this is not the thread to discuss them).

 

Thank-you for your last post. I appreciate that you are willing to compromise. To my way of thinking what I am asking for is fair to everyone. I sincerely hope this feature is implemented in the way I described. Both myself and my family have been waiting a long time for this game, and I'd hate to cancel over this issue.

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There are also non human npcs throughout the world that you can flirt with.. as long as they are human-like in appearance they are fair game.. any of the playable races for instance (in addition to others that are not but are indeed similar) not just humans. And while sex is biologically designed for reproduction.. Id say 70%+ of all sex in the real world is had for pleasure and not reproduction so saying same sex shouldnt be involved since it has no evolutionary use has no weight, but to clarify Im not saying thats what you meant by your comment just that the argument used against including the same sex relationships doesnt mean much. As far as interspecies heterosexual couples are concened it is a very good point as the amount of "half-breeds" in the game are virtually non existant and in lore they aren't very common in and of themselves. Edited by Tenebram
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I do hope the same-sex romances talk about having or adopting kids as well. Would be interesting to see how the Jedi, for example, would regard a couple of Jedi who want to adopt a kid, especially a non-Force-sensitive kid. Edited by Sireene
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True, though I do hope the same-sex romances talk about having or adopting kids as well. Would be interesting to see how the Jedi, for example, would regard a couple of Jedi who want to adopt a kid, especially a non-Force-sensitive kid.

 

I personally like to avoid any 'kid talk' in romances...there should be a toggle for it :p

Edited by Sireene
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I personally like to avoid any 'kid talk' in romances...there should be a toggle for it :p

 

Heh. Some romances only talk about it in letters, it seems, while others talk about it as part of the romance. See also: the Sith Warrior romances agreeing that Malavai Quinn will become the ship's nanny should kids happen.

 

Vette is the only one, as far as I know, who explicitly suggests potentially adopting kids rather than bearing them. That could and perhaps should remain in a same-sex romance. There is most likely no shortage of war orphans in the galaxy, after all.

Edited by Cythereal
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I think Option 3 is a fantastic idea, and probably the most pleasing for everyone. I do have one question though: If the sexual preference option were only available in the character creation screen, wouldn't that mean that people like myself who put a lot of effort into going lvl 50 have to start again from scratch?

 

That is my only issue with the proposal. But other than that, the resetting and the options, including the no-romance one for those who don't want ikky with their ***-kicking, is a phenomenal suggestion!

Edited by Pangeri
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BW should really give us an ETA. Rumors(or is it facts?) say that it may not be available to companions that you have already progressed on, and if so, I want to know if I should progress on them or not.

Furthermore, I don't think its fair at all to only make new companions with SGR options. That would give us who wants it, much less freedom of choice. I know, I know, in real life no one can just pick a partner by pointing at them, but games are made to delight and entertain, not to hinder or bother, right? The best option imo would be to make all companions and npc's available for SGR

 

I would appreciate if BW worked on this ASAP. Just like how some things irritate some people, the lack of SGR in the game is currently making me unable to really enjoy the game, with all the vague information about the implementation.

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No more debating about the underlying issue, please. As has been stated multiple times, that discussion has no bearing whatsoever on this topic.

 

And the toggle, even for both, is *not* equal in practice, even if it is technically equal in mechanics. There has been absolutely no demand for one, UNTIL same-gender relationships enter the equation. You do not hear LGBT gamers complaining about the optional hetero-romances, or being approached by the opposite-gender. They just want their options in addition to that, so they actually have a choice in the matter.

 

Those opposed are "conceding" a point, that if SGRA's are going to be added, it should be hidden. And just for fairness' sake, they should be able to hide OGRA's too. While not a direct parallel, it bears some similarity to racial tensions of the "seperate but equal" variety.

Edited by Raiellyn
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No more debating about the underlying issue, please. As has been stated multiple times, that discussion has no bearing whatsoever on this topic.

 

And the toggle, even for both, is *not* equal in practice, even if it is technically equal in mechanics. There has been absolutely no demand for one, UNTIL same-gender relationships enter the equation. You do not hear LGBT gamers complaining about the optional hetero-romances, or being approached by the opposite-gender. They just want their options in addition to that, so they actually have a choice in the matter.

 

Those opposed are "conceding" a point, that if SGRA's are going to be added, it should be hidden. And just for fairness' sake, they should be able to hide OGRA's too. While not a direct parallel, it bears some similarity to racial tensions of the "seperate but equal" variety.

 

 

1.) Please explain how something that impartial is not fair.

 

2.) I am sorry, but you are flat out wrong - there ARE LGBT gamers complaining about the heterosexual romances in game. One poster even called it wrong and backwards.

 

It sounds like you are saying that homosexual content needs to be blatantly visible in all game content wether the user wants it or not... or am I reading this wrong? Please clarify.

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tol·er·ate /ˈtäləˌrāt/ verb:

1.Allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

2.Accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance.

 

Asking to hide even the conversational options of same-gender content is requesting special accomodation of your sensibilities beyond what others are offered in the game as it stands. Same-gender content will be included in SWTOR. I can see no good reason why that content should be any less visible.

 

The only context in which a toggle to hide options has been raised is in regards to the inclusion of same-sex content. To demand exceptional treatment beyond that offered to other players in regard to content they wish not to explore is asking for preferential treatment. I don't think accommodating intolerance is compatible with the aim of a diverse and tolerant player community.

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