https://gyazo.com/7fa0f1ad9e709b8403aa173fd95dec19

https://gyazo.com/7e631c0bccc407ac4aace56033724cfb

https://gyazo.com/97e95535c3c414f2c610fe769a6d08cb

https://gyazo.com/39f6fe806c9d8a9737104ecea4c981de

https://gyazo.com/1ee017eb1fcc77bbc570f6866320bfcb

didnt make proper screens cuz who cares also kill vids for our first kills here

our guild is <Better Now> teamname is <187>

Red 8man | For the Republic / Blau | Rep-Side | Tulak Hord

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/716735345798021141/726187167088377897/Screenshot_2020-06-26_22_43_48_880744.jpg

<Farming Components> Special thanks to Dkgray

<Defeat the Apex Vanguard (8-Person Master)>

Hi

<Camp Me I'm Famous> / Imp-Side / The Leviathan

B1 Master

B2 Master

Wait for others down

<Farming Components> Special thanks to Dkgray

<Defeat the Apex Vanguard (8-Person Master)>

Pog

5char

<Farming Components> Special thanks to Dkgray

<Defeat the Apex Vanguard (8-Person Master)>

Gz! :rak_03:

<Farming Components> Special thanks to Dkgray

<Defeat the Apex Vanguard (8-Person Master)>

Too F...ing Easy!

FR vs GER vs NA

lets go

First of all I want to congratulate <Farming Components> with their kill on Apex Vanguard and everyone else with their recent clears.

Although the killing of Apex Vanguard was a really impressive feat I have been notified of a small but major detail of how this kill was achieved and have been put into a position I don't really want to be in.

While trying to do the right thing the role of Lady Iustitia was given to me and I had to weigh both cases on the balance of justice. My sword is raised but I feel unable to file a verdict. I try to be blindfolded and as unbiased as possible and I hope my role as Iustitia will not be taken personally towards me.

That is why I am asking you, the community, to help me in this difficult decision. This goes back to the age old discussion of what is an exploit and what not. Rebounders and reflect were a huge meme during Gods and Hydraulics during Revan. Some people might consider them smart use of in game mechanics some consider them an unintended oversight or even an exploit. Both are right in a way and both are wrong in some way.

While I don't want to deny <Farming Components> their world first kill of Apex Vanguard there is also something to say that in this kill a major mechanic called Red Venom was completely deleted out of the fight by clicking the console that vents the room at the right time, leaving the Red Venom buff active on Apex Vanguard which means this mechanic is "active" but removing the damage component of the Red Venom Cloud. This results in Apex Vanguard not using this ability ever again in the whole fight.

I asked around and as it turns out a lot of teams progressing on Apex Vanguard were very aware of this and were using this smart use of in game mechanics/exploit to their advantage.

This leads to the final question. Should this be considered an exploit and not allowed on this board or is this allowed because it is a smart use of mechanics?

I have thought about this a long time and heard out a lot of opinions. To me the kill is valid but the complete deletion of the mechanic does not make it proper. During Gods for example my team did not use rebounders or reflect during Anchor phase, unlike other teams, on serious clears because it felt stupid, unintended and exploitive and this was fixed after some time reinforcing our opinion. We still endorsed the first kill by <Failure> though. Red venom is similar in this way, unintended and stupid but it feels like a more major factor in the whole case and makes it a more severe substraction of incoming damage during the fight. Still, a kill is a kill and I have the feeling this claim would be considered valid in previous tiers. If this thread would've been posted by someone else and the kill claim would've been done by a certain team it probably would've been endorsed by the rest of the community albeit with huge drama. Both sides have solid arguments.

Like I said I want to do the right thing and that is why I'm considering this:

<Farming Components> will get acknowledged for their kill and will be put on the board. Their achievement is unparalleled and deserves recognition.

However, this claim can be counter claimed. If anyone manages to kill Apex Vanguard without this smart use of mechanics/exploit they will be put higher on the board. I am not sure yet how to handle subsequent kills but I am considering to post them in a different color if done with said no venom strat.

I hope agreement can be reached with this solution. It is not as definitive as yes/no, left/right or white/black but I consider it the most fair.

As for [Timed], I will handle this in a similar way. If you want to make claims please provide a video or log, either in this thread or in a PM, where it clearly shows that Red Venom was active and not deleted from the fight.

I urge you to post your thoughts about this matter and let my sword be lowered to bring this to a final verdict.

Also to anyone posting without UTC clock, PLEASE provide a UTC clock to your screenshots. I have no way of telling in what timezone anyone lives. To maintain this board in an easy way I need this UNIVERSAL time because you know, the time is different depending on what place in the world you're located.

This strikes me as similar to NiM council where a dps would LOS calphayus behind a crystal to make her not drop fonts anywhere, which negated a pretty big part of boss placement. I know at the time, we looked down on teams using that (iirc HMD Magenta basically fell apart when it came out they did that)... That being said, the meta seems clearly different right now, and my question is: if this red venom panel timing is due to a bug that the patch put into the game (as I've heard apex is quite buggy) then I am more annoyed with the devs than anything else. Reminds me of NiM TFB final boss where the first kill was basically free bc the boss killed itself with enrage.

Also, if basically every team pulling apex is doing the same thing, then it seems like the kill is valid. They full cleared, gg. Now it's just a countdown to time run.

If NA discovers and uses it's 'clever use of mechanics' but when the EU does it's exploiting.

Sounds reasonable.

Give FC the world first. End of story.

N/A, you lost the race. Let it go.

And it's hilarious when they don't even post the kills, and still trying shade the kill.

Team Mango - Darth Malgus

Red

B1

B2

Trandoshans

Hi

<Camp Me I'm Famous> / Imp-Side / The Leviathan

Trandoshan

I forgot to screen because of the hype sorry :/

LoS is different than glitching a buff so it stays on the whole time. That’s a clear exploit.

How the **** is glitching Calphy AI is not an exploit LMAO? Next thing we know, that parrot cheese with jumping up on the console on Cora is a "clever use of game mechanics" because it's "different".

With that said, in the context of WF race anything that is a common knowledge is a fair game IMO (provided it isn't outright cheating and is obtainable by just playing the game). If you discover that using Shock Frozen Water somehow makes the enrage phase 10x easier, by the time people are done with PTS basically everyone knows the trick and then some team chooses to play ignorance, or, worse, righteousness - it's making excuses at this point.

This is a question of whether all teams have access to the same resources. Defining the scope of "common knowledge" needs some negotiation, sure, also there's an issue of this still being a journey of discovery - even if someone on your team is colorblind and legitimately has issues with some specific animations, you accept it and move on, you are at a disadvantage because of it but you know it and you accept it. Similarly, if you know something and choose to continue fighting a good fight - that's on you, it's a good cause but it also doesn't work with the WF.

But most importantly, do NOT change the rules post factum. If you want a separate WF with the requirement of doing the X mechanic the Y way you think is intended, post a requirement, run a separate leaderboard (you can still do this!) and track kills made this way. 6.0 is actually a good time to do so because of gearing being nearly independent of this kill. Even earlier on, you could choose between progging the "right" way from the start or cheese first for gear and then re-practice the thing you cheesed and do it the "legit" way - provided the rules are set from the start.

TL;DR: Blame the devs and make a separate leaderboard with extra requirements while you still can.

https://imgur.com/PIfh01r

Satele Shan

Guild: RNG Gods

Team: In Denial

But most importantly, do NOT change the rules post factum. If you want a separate WF with the requirement of doing the X mechanic the Y way you think is intended, post a requirement, run a separate leaderboard (you can still do this!) and track kills made this way. 6.0 is actually a good time to do so because of gearing being nearly independent of this kill. Even earlier on, you could choose between progging the "right" way from the start or cheese first for gear and then re-practice the thing you cheesed and do it the "legit" way - provided the rules are set from the start.

 

TL;DR: Blame the devs and make a separate leaderboard with extra requirements while you still can.

Imagine thinking bug abuse is ok

Hi. As of tonight <Tragic Heroes> (Republic) Team - Godslayers - of Star Forge Is 1/6 Dxun NIM

Screenshot: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/335941464146051073/726986335453315162/IMG_20200628_221634743.jpg

On a silly note: We are world first Red NIM clear with a tank that is 295 ilvl because I swapped out defense mods for dps ones and I missed my bracers, and no one noticed, thus I ran the whole night missing a mod in my bracers and was at 295 ilvl, didn't realize till after.

Weighing in on the current big dramas it seems like Apex NIM is pretty buggy at the moment, While I do think having the knowledge to know how to negate that mechanic is "clever" I also think its an exploit, however since the boss is so buggy right now, and no one else has killed it I'm all for keeping their name on the board. Perhaps specify in the future "World first apex using x glitch" world first apex not using x glitch" that way no ones kills are completely invalidated. Anyway its just a game.

Hope to have more kills to post soon, cheers!

<Ordinance> Huntmaster kill below

Video of kill -

achievements of guild - https://imgur.com/a/itJf8T7

achievement with UTC time - https://imgur.com/a/HBadndy

Congrats to other guilds who are making progress!

How the **** is glitching Calphy AI is not an exploit LMAO? Next thing we know, that parrot cheese with jumping up on the console on Cora is a "clever use of game mechanics" because it's "different".

 

With that said, in the context of WF race anything that is a common knowledge is a fair game IMO (provided it isn't outright cheating and is obtainable by just playing the game). If you discover that using Shock Frozen Water somehow makes the enrage phase 10x easier, by the time people are done with PTS basically everyone knows the trick and then some team chooses to play ignorance, or, worse, righteousness - it's making excuses at this point.

This is a question of whether all teams have access to the same resources. Defining the scope of "common knowledge" needs some negotiation, sure, also there's an issue of this still being a journey of discovery - even if someone on your team is colorblind and legitimately has issues with some specific animations, you accept it and move on, you are at a disadvantage because of it but you know it and you accept it. Similarly, if you know something and choose to continue fighting a good fight - that's on you, it's a good cause but it also doesn't work with the WF.

 

But most importantly, do NOT change the rules post factum. If you want a separate WF with the requirement of doing the X mechanic the Y way you think is intended, post a requirement, run a separate leaderboard (you can still do this!) and track kills made this way. 6.0 is actually a good time to do so because of gearing being nearly independent of this kill. Even earlier on, you could choose between progging the "right" way from the start or cheese first for gear and then re-practice the thing you cheesed and do it the "legit" way - provided the rules are set from the start.

 

TL;DR: Blame the devs and make a separate leaderboard with extra requirements while you still can.

I think this is a pretty fair statement and a problem with many of these discussions is that they're retrospective so I'll respect that it's probably the worst circumstance to actually change anything in. Congrats to their kill and I'll naturally respect it.

Sidenote; if it's meaningful to discussion. Camera 2's (the lead dev behind this raid) discord status for a period today was that he is currently actively trying to fix this red venom bug. So I suppose there's a degree of dev acknowledgement of this issue.

That being said I'll pre-empt a discussion since talking about problems before they happen is probably the only way to make any meaningful changes. What's your plan if this gets patched relatively soon and all remaining teams are made to do this fight without access to this bug?

Overall great work to FC in clearing so rapidly.

I think this is a pretty fair statement and a problem with many of these discussions is that they're retrospective so I'll respect that it's probably the worst circumstance to actually change anything in. Congrats to their kill and I'll naturally respect it.

 

Sidenote; if it's meaningful to discussion. Camera 2's (the lead dev behind this raid) discord status for a period today was that he is currently actively trying to fix this red venom bug. So I suppose there's a degree of dev acknowledgement of this issue.

 

That being said I'll pre-empt a discussion since talking about problems before they happen is probably the only way to make any meaningful changes. What's your plan if this gets patched relatively soon and all remaining teams are made to do this fight without access to this bug?

 

Overall great work to FC in clearing so rapidly.

Sounds like rebounder on izax. What happened to teams who had to kill without reflect and rebounder?

Oh wait, you that was not a exploit right? Was there any kill removed from that? From the board you ran? Didn't it also had 4/8 kill requirement and teams posting with 3 member kills and still got accepted and put ahead of the other teams?

Just Wow.

I'm not saying shouldn't it be discussed or anything but find it so funny, you guys still not posting the kills saying not caring, spending 3 hours writing and have a discussion about sementics of what is an exploit is, and is FC kill legit or not.

Sounds like rebounder on izax. What happened to teams who had to kill without reflect and rebounder?

 

Oh wait, you that was not a exploit right? Was there any kill removed from that? From the board you ran? Didn't it also had 4/8 kill requirement and teams posting with 3 member kills and still got accepted and put ahead of the other teams?

Just Wow.

 

I'm not saying shouldn't it be discussed or anything but find it so funny, you guys still not posting the kills saying not caring, spending 3 hours writing and have a discussion about sementics of what is an exploit is, and is FC kill legit or not.

I'll address every point one at a time here.

1. This is a very different context because reflects got patched months after release, multuple groups had completed their timed runs at that point; it was pretty obscure to do a retroactive change that far into the tier because the complete lack of communication around it from BW meant teams had little direction on what would happen. I asked in this case because lessons were obviously learnt from that tier and hence I'm asking prospectively rather than retrospectively. Furthermore the fact a dev has acknowledged this in the first lockout of the tier is way more direction on BW's plan around this than it being ninja patched months into a tier.

2. The board I ran had a 5/8 requirement, before the tier even dropped I explained I would lessen the strictness of that requirement as the tier progressed and many kills had rolled in. I even lessened it on a clearance basis; ie. I was accepting 4/8 Tyth and A/E kills long before I was accepting 4/8 Izax kills. I even stated if anyone disagreed with that ruling they could comment and no one did. Except you now.. retrospectively.

3. I think I've asked every question around this discussion respectfully, I've even changed my mindset to agree with accepting that kill. I think that such aggression to someone raising a discussion is pretty poor form though.I also don't believe I've said I don't care at any point. I've said in various discussions around this that I'd support a final decision but care for a reasonable discussion around this topic at least.

TBH though what's the point of talking about this further if all it leads to is hostility.