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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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That might explain it, yes. Reading between the lines can be something of a strain, and inferrences can be shaky. Which is, of course, why reliable information is so highly valued.

Yeah, it's not been made clear anywhere I've seen that they are, in fact, allowing threads to exceed 100 pages, but at the very least this isn't the only thread that is like that. The communication levels are abysmal and very very frustrating. How hard is it to check with the developers and give you guys an answer?

A. "Yes, it's still in development. Specific features still to be determined."

B. "No, it's no longer in development."

This isn't even an element of the game I would use, and I'm irritated by the silence.

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Mmhmm.

 

I am torn now between not wanting to make things any more difficult for the Community Team than they already are and the fact that it has only been by making some sort of outrageous fuss away from our one permissible thread here that we have managed to get any sort of news. I am hoping good behavior works, and giving it to September 5 to hear something. That'll be the 6 month mark since we last heard anything. September 13 will be one year since we were told this would be in game... eventually.

 

For content originally intended at launch and still expected this year, I do not think it's unreasonable to want an update now. Whether this is still in would be something. Far, far better is a reply to those questions which have never been addressed. Unacceptable would be continuing to hear nothing. I will not be investing in any more game time until we do -- gives me a few months more to play, and I will, but this is just absurd.

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Thanks for stopping by . . . .

 

I should be thanking you and all the others who keep threads like this running.

 

Given Bioware's previous games, I'm still kinda disappointed that this was not included right from the start.

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I should be thanking you and all the others who keep threads like this running.

 

Given Bioware's previous games, I'm still kinda disappointed that this was not included right from the start.

 

Well, we are told that was originally the plan, but they ran out of time & money. As of now, after several shake-ups, we are no longer even certain the content is still in the cards.

 

BioWare and EA both do know better, and have done better in the past. That makes this particularly disappointing.

 

As far as keeping the thread alive and moving, we have been told it's really all we can do to assure this issue remains at the attention of the development team. Not that we have ever seen any indication that it actually is. *HINT, HINT!*

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It's been a while since this has been posted here, so for newer forum members who don't know the scoop, I am going to repost what information we have on same-gender content. Mind you, it's a year to six months old at this point and there have been changed with the Dev Team since, so we really have no idea how much, if any, of this is still accurate. But it's all we've got.

 

First is the original announcement promising same-gender romantic content will be in SWTOR, as a post-launch feature. These statements were made by then Community Manager Stephen Reid on September 12, 2011:

 

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.

 

He qualified this announcement with a couple more informal statements at the time:

 

First of all, this is definitely not an audience that consists of a 'couple of people' and we're aware of that. We take this decision very seriously.

 

Second, it's very important to realize that this is just one of many, many content additions that will be going into the game post launch. The vast majority of our content will be of interest to the vast majority of our potential audience.

 

However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early.

 

There will be plenty of content for all to play and enjoy.

 

and

 

We can't guarantee that a character you play at launch would have romance options 'unlocked' for an existing companion. It's something that will be taken into consideration when making design decisions. Not a promise it'll happen, but we'll take that feedback and relay it through to design.

 

We fully intend to do justice to the story in our storylines.

 

As you may have heard, we take story very seriously - this included.

 

Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them.

 

That is as much as was said by BioWare on what sort of same-gender romance would be included, and when, up until nearly six months later (now nearly six months ago) when the matter was raised again at the developer panel discussion last March. Daniel Erickson fielded the issue then (after we had made our interest plain on the Community Q&A Thread for several weeks running). The following is from a transcript of the live remarks:

 

This is an interesting one because it sort of lit up, and we didn't honestly -- if we should give an update on it every single time -- We've always said the same thing with it, which is that it's coming, and it's coming with story updates. And we totally understand when people hear "soon", um, maybe I should have put the TM next to it that, "writer Soon"? The writers have a much, much larger lead time than you would expect, and we wanna do any of this stuff right. We heard suggestions, and we do read the stuff, and let's talk a little about the stuff we were not willing to do. We were not willing to go in and just change all the dialogue to work for the other gender. That is not writing. That is not good storytelling.

 

When we do this, we wanna do it right, we wanna do it with the characters that make sense, that we always knew that we wanted to do it for those, so you guys know and we've talked about it before, it ended up being a budget and scheduling issue. There are romance arcs that we wanted to do that didn't make it in the game, we knew which characters (I'm not gonna tell you)... [some audience joking about characters] So the short answer is, it's never changed, it's still coming, it's coming when full story comes, and when is full story coming? This year. So we are still on track.

 

There has been no official comment since, but the initial September Announcement has appeared at the head of each version of this thread as often as it has been re-created by the Community Team (after it hits maximum length). So at least as of last June, that was still being presented as still true for the future of the game.

 

One interesting note has come directly from the Community Team, however, that suggest that an option not to see that the same-gender content is available -- that is, to choose a setting which would prevent the romantic prompts from appearing from same -gender NPCs -- is not being considered grew out of a prolonged and often heated discussion between proponents and opponents of such a feature:

 

Discussion of the implementation of toggles to filter same gender romance options is considered discriminatory language and is neither appropriate nor allowed on the forums. Posts along this vein of discussion will be removed.

 

While this does not say it will definitely not be a feature, it can be inferred that when included, same-gender romantic content will be presented in the same manner as existing opposite-gender romance, with clearly marked [Flirt] prompts which one may choose or not as one pleases.

 

So that's all we know. We'd love to know more. The six month / one year landmark would be a nice time for that, IMO.

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All of that is nice to read, but my big fear, is that at some point between all the restructuring, someone high up decided that they need to take a totally new direction and none of those statements are valid anymore. Not just on this issue, but a lot of things. I hope so much that it's just silly, pessimistic thinking.

I'm ok with story issues taking a back seat while they try to address a lot of major technical and end-game issues, but the hope of future story arcs for me and my companions are the main reason why I continue to play this game.

 

I am just picturing the creative team and the financial teams duking it out over stuff. :rak_04:

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All of that is nice to read, but my big fear, is that at some point between all the restructuring, someone high up decided that they need to take a totally new direction and none of those statements are valid anymore.

 

That's a perfectly reasonable concern. We don't know even if it's still in, at all, but there are a few optimistic indications, though some are based on an absence of information.

 

In the last week give or take we did receive, via PMs from Allison Berryman to some long-time regulars on this thread, a fairly standard "sorry, no new info" reply but with assurances that when they had something new, they'd tell us. That sounds to me like this is still in the works, as there is a possibility of more news at some point.

 

Other indications one needs to read between the lines around the boards with what Allison and Joveth have talked about in terms of what they do. This includes monitoring hot topics and moderating threads, and this is the most-viewed thread on the front page of Story & Lore and receives -- and always has received -- dedicated and patient moderation to filter out the inevitable ugly posts.

 

Another thing they do is escalate big questions to those who can answer them. We can hope they do so in our case. I imagine they do. But they also need to approve what they say before they can say it. And it seems likely -- it has not been denied when I have asked flat-out -- that there is an overriding policy restricting what they can say about same-gender content at all as well as where or how they can even give us "Sorry - nothing new, guys" replies.

 

Unfair? Well... yes. But someone seems to think it the best way to keep a lid on likely controversy. Since discontent at the continued absence of information, and how this salts the wound of this content not having been in from the start, has been a recurring theme here and as I believe the Community Team really does have an eye on this, I think we can hope that growing dissatisfaction is at the attention of those able to do something about it, which is all the Comm Team can do for us at this point.

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Well, we are told that was originally the plan, but they ran out of time & money. As of now, after several shake-ups, we are no longer even certain the content is still in the cards.

 

BioWare and EA both do know better, and have done better in the past. That makes this particularly disappointing.

 

As far as keeping the thread alive and moving, we have been told it's really all we can do to assure this issue remains at the attention of the development team. Not that we have ever seen any indication that it actually is. *HINT, HINT!*

It took them more effort to do straight and same-gender romances separately than it would have taken them to do all romance options at the same time. This was an active effort on BioWare's part to delay the content both so they could tell right-wing groups the sgr's were not in the game while stringing along their customers looking for the content. If they did not plan on playing both sides, they just had to be stupid to not see how upset this would leave such a large portion of their customers by sitting on this content. Does anyone believe finishing same gender romances was more work and appealed to less of the subscribers than adding the Cat-people as a playable race?

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Does anyone believe finishing same gender romances was more work and appealed to less of the subscribers than adding the Cat-people as a playable race?

 

Actually, yes.

 

A new species does not require any new voice acting -- voices for cutscene content are by class, not species. All they really have to do is create enough variety in character appearance -- phenotype, features, complexion etc. -- and assure that the gear fits without bizarre clipping.

 

Romance needs to be written then voiced by all eight class voice actors, as well as animated and whatever else goes into making a cutscene & hooking it into the existing game. The last we heard, from Daniel Erickson, was that it is the writing that needs the longest lead-time. Then again, the 9 months the game has been out is long enough to have a baby. If they have actually had talent devoted to this content, surely they are making some headway.

 

Yes, this really ought to have gone in at launch, or else all romantic content ought to have waited until post-launch. But it didn't. BioWare has never exactly apologized for the implied... well, actual discrimination. And the separate-and-inequal treatment even of discussion of the subject is just really, really unfortunate.

 

If you are going to be inclusive, just be inclusive. Being inclusive while treating those you are including as second-class, undervalued customers (and that is, in fact, exactly what BioWare has chosen to do), you can't expect the eventual inclusion to merit laurels and fanfares. As it stands, this is a grossly, blatantly heterosexist game. Play a male Smuggler and you are given a choice between [Flirt]ing with a female NPC or losing affection with one or both of your companion NPCs. That's just tacky.

 

We have been promised this content this year. That's as long as I am giving this game. I might be persuaded to wait just a little bit longer if any announced delay (which I fully expect at this point) is suitably contrite. But seeing how BioWare has chosen to treat its LGBT players and allies like crap, well... My enthusiasm is under some strain.

 

Edit -- this impression is to some extent softened by the care the Community Team has put into maintaining this thread, and even to the determination made prohibiting requests for same-gender content to be made able to be hidden with a button in preferences. Without ever stepping into an argument, they have moderated this thread now for eight months, and I think that they, at least, are trying to treat this topic and those to whom it's important respectfully. I just want to say that -- they're the ones who have to catch the flak. A thankless task.

Edited by Uluain
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Let me just reiterate something that seems to have been forgotten by some here:

 

SGRAs have been promised for this year. The year is not over yet. [de-emphasis mine - U]

 

Forgotten? Not at all. I can also read a calendar. However, recent Developer interviews have said things to the effect of de-emphasizing story content for now, and bringing it out in larger but much more infrequent updates. We don't know whether that means that the story content promised for this year (which same-gender romance was lumped with) has been delayed indefinitely, but it sounds likely.

 

We don't know. There have been large changes at BioWare Austin since that commitment was made, and large changes in the direction of the game. There are also questions about this content which have never been addressed either of the times we have heard anything definite about it. And that's why this thread is still relevant, why it's still open, and why we still press for an update on the status of same-gender content.

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Forgotten? Not at all. I can also read a calendar. However, recent Developer interviews have said things to the effect of de-emphasizing story content for now, and bringing it out in larger but much more infrequent updates. We don't know whether that means that the story content promised for this year (which same-gender romance was lumped with) has been delayed indefinitely, but it sounds likely.

 

We don't know. There have been large changes at BioWare Austin since that commitment was made, and large changes in the direction of the game. There are also questions about this content which have never been addressed either of the times we have heard anything definite about it. And that's why this thread is still relevant, why it's still open, and why we still press for an update on the status of same-gender content.

How long ago was it that they said "This Year?" How much is left of this year and have they said anything else about it since then?

Edited by BumpBump
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Ohboy. You're one of those people who can't see anything beyond your own preconceptions. I feel sorry for you.

 

When they don't bring it out this year, I will remind you of this post and laugh at you. I hope you will delete your SWTOR account when they make you look like a fool for trusting them.

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How long ago was it that they said "This Year?" How much is left of this year and have they said anything else about it since then?

 

Exactly six months, next Wednesday. I posted that - and a full quote of the comment - about a page ago. There is roughly 1/3 of a year remaining. Your point?

 

Did you take into account that the current Development Team have indicated a shift of focus away from new story content? Did you miss where Daniel Erickson said that same-gender romantic content is coming with new story content? Can you see how that might conceivably raise some concerns in regards to a time table?

 

What are you here for? What is your point other than aggressing the thread?

Edited by Uluain
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Had there not been a ton of changes, layoffs, walkouts, restructuring, etc.. I would be happy to believe that, but at this point a broken promise wouldn't surprise me. So don't get your hopes up too much. I do believe that if the game gets over this "hump", SGR will make it into the game. It's understandably not one of their top priorities... I could end up being totally surprised, though. We'll see what we get in the next 4 months.
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Edit -- this impression is to some extent softened by the care the Community Team has put into maintaining this thread, and even to the determination made prohibiting requests for same-gender content to be made able to be hidden with a button in preferences. Without ever stepping into an argument, they have moderated this thread now for eight months, and I think that they, at least, are trying to treat this topic and those to whom it's important respectfully. I just want to say that -- they're the ones who have to catch the flak. A thankless task.

 

I get your sentiment, but I'm not sure 8 months of continually shoving any questions into one thead, and making sure to stay off the Dev Tracker 'radar' with a generic Forum Handle can still be called respectful. "Stay in your box, and hope we eventually poke some breathing holes. "

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I'm not sure how much of that is the Comm Team's call. I have vacillated on that, sometimes becoming more than a little angry about it, but lately the more I look at things the more it seems they are doing all they can actually get away with while working under a pretty serious gag rule. What I will agree with is that whoever's call it is that replies must be indirect or virtually invisible is not helping the matter from our end at all.

 

I will mention that Joveth and others have invited players to message them with any Community related concerns. Also that we have been known to get replies via private message when other channels have been mute. Food for thought.

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I can understand the frustration that could come with the lack of information but we all have to keep in mind one thing - this type of content takes a lot of time. By "this type of content" I don't mean only SGR, I mean everything related to storytelling. In most MMOs they would only have to write the dialogues and do the work on the animations and the cutscenes (assuming there would be cutscenes at all). In this instance, they have to also do a lot of work on the voice over, with a lot of actors. This takes time and money. And let's not forget that they have a lot more things on their plate. Patience is the key.

 

For what is worth, I do want to have SGR in the game and I have at least one such relationship in mind, assuming they will add it for already recruited and existing companions, but, like I said, this type of content takes time to produce.

 

I'm not worried about the future of SGR in SWTOR, after all BioWare has done it in many of their previous games. It may come slower than people would like (like almost everything in the game...) but I'm sure it will come sooner or later.

Edited by alricka
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