Objective:

Elevate Developer awareness of concerns over potential game-immersion breaking consequences of LotS "Combat Stance".

Point 1:

With already so many instances of graphical clipping, or 'funny physics' where capes wrap incorrectly or clip through characters (see "Malgus Reborn Chestpiece"), with the welcome advent of "Combat Stances" being announced, concern of an incidental developer 'blind spot' on implementation on how "switching" stances will be designed - namely that there will be an absence of any animation(s) associated with switching combat stances.

Also animations and depictions of "on character" equipment (see Mass Effect - ie Pistol, Shotgun, Rifle/Main Weapon). Using the example of a current Sith Inquisitor: Assassin that uses Dualsaber weapon proficiency (passive) skill, a weapon like the "Unrelenting Aggressor Dualsaber" [Cartel Market Item] has no single saber lightsaber variant. The concern that such a character class will simply 'spawn' a single bladed lightsaber or have the toggle instantaneously switch to the new profile with no animation elicits concern about adding to already existing immersion break.

Ideally, akin to the current Character Costume System, players will see the additional weapons (as appropriate) on their character's person (ie single saber hanging on opposite side of belt from main saber actively in use, or small of their back ie Mass Effect Shotgun style, etc.). Adding to the Character Sheet window, in the Costume settings an additional toggle "Show Additional Weapons", just like "Show Darkside Corruption" can allow the player to greater control over their character's appearance and style - something that is part and parcel of SWTOR game play.

Such a Costume Appearance toggle would eliminate extreme UI development, and that when a player switches their character to a new Combat Stance, even if developers do not implement an animation system for changing weapons in conjunction with the Combat Stance System, the immersion break will be less when it is clear that via Player selection of the toggle option the weapon is already on the character's immediate person.

Point 2:

Combat Stance animations -

While SWTOR is a themed RPG and not a simulator, it should go without saying that adding additional and appropriate animations for the change TO and FROM a specific Combat Stance(s), if not already part of LotS Expansion: Patch 7.0, are completely congruent to the fidelity level of the first Fully Voiced RPG Story basis of SWTOR.

To simply visually spawn into existence equipment that does not radically deviate from how a player has designed their character is beneath the quality of this game. (Just a brief history of development of the combat system and auto-block/defend animations that were developed are enough to highlight this point)

Star Wars: The Clone Wars - General Grievous evokes thoughts of carrying more than one lightsaber and it being on the characters person

And of course with our Tech Character players for Bounty Hunter, Trooper, Agent, etc similar thoughts and concerns come about; and having more of a Mass Effect style gearing of on-person character weapons, or on-person weapon costume(s), or a 'fly-in spawned' delivery droid for Heavy Weapons, or even the player's companion tossing them a sniper rifle, etc might be options to leave convincing animations that do not break game immersion unnecessarily.

Point 3:

10 Years of Player Investment into their respective Character(s)!

Irrespective of a Player's SWTOR playstyle - PVE only, Stronghold Design, Ranked PVP, etc; after 10 years of SWTOR many Founding Veteran Player's and even new Players enjoy the proverbial "Space Barbies" aspect of SWTOR.

Due consideration should be afforded those players that not only Subscribe but have invested heavily in time, effort, and real money to create a unique look for their character(s).

As previously cited, the "Unrelenting Aggressor Dualsaber" has no single handed variant - this is my personal permanent lightsaber on my main character...

So the inevitable question for a player like myself that has already refined their character's costume and look, comes next: Will the developers add the single hand variant; or will they amaze the community by adding new animation where the dualsabers can be operated as single AND dual blade (for Sorcerer to Assassin stance changes) (See eg: Darh Maul in Phantom Menace & Jedi Fallen Order: Split Saber), or will the dualsaber weapon proficiency passive still persist even when switching stances; or will the developers show us the ability (as seen in Star Wars shows and other media/books) of dualsabers being able to be separated/detached to work as dual-wield sabers in each hand (ie current Sith Marauder)?

Avoiding immersion-break with Player's favorite character(s) would make LotS: Combat Stance System even more of a hit and success.

Point 4:

If due to design or time restraints that such animations and/or design to avoid immersion break do not permit these ideas to be adopted as part of the LotS Combat Stance System development, then at the very bare minimum:

All Cartel Market Dualsaber items should have a corresponding and matching single handed lighsaber variant (and as appropriate equivalent Tech weapon variants as well)

Conclusion:

LotS: Combat Stances is an amazing addition to SWTOR! And it deserves the properly nuanced implementation that attempts to avoid immersion-break as much as is technically possible within the confines of the project. And absent that could be regarded as inconsiderate towards a loyal player base that is heavily invested into the 'look' of their character and the time and money they have devoted toward that 'Space Barbie' aspect of game play in SWTOR.

(Special Note: This post was written by 3 Veteran SWTOR Players [Forum Handles]: Kass, Kass_CE, HSFKSN after discussing the information in the July 1st Live Stream announcement for Legends of the Sith 7.0 Release)

I agree, Having the option of a single bladed variant of the lightsaber, or just having the dualsaber only ignite one end would lead to less continuity issues with story gameplay in 7.0 and beyond.

Neither of those suggestions would help switching a single-blade user to a dual-blade style. There are far more single-bladers without dual-blade equivalents than the other way around.

Also. "Kass" and "Kass_CE" ??????? I hope that's just a coincidence, but I have a nasty suspicious mind.

Neither of those suggestions would help switching a single-blade user to a dual-blade style. There are far more single-bladers without dual-blade equivalents than the other way around.

 

Also. "Kass" and "Kass_CE" ??????? I hope that's just a coincidence, but I have a nasty suspicious mind.

Granted there are more 'single' handed lightsaber classes. Only the Devs know precisely what artistic resources are in SWTOR for single vs doublebladed sabers in their toolkit - I wouldn't be surprised if for every lightsaber design there is already a fully baked dualsaber to match; then they decide to release both or only one...

But either way the points are intended to highlight an overall concern. I've had very good success in the past of raising a point and seeing it implemented in game, and I believe the Devs still monitor the Forums and if the idea is a good one and/or fits in with the development plan and goals for an upcoming SWTOR Patch then they do their best to make a better game for the community.

And don't be Sus about forum names for a 10 year old game, and 12 year old forums...

After all... a family that plays together wins together!

Unless I missed something, this seems to be all about lightsabers. Okay ... what happens when you want to hot-swap your Merc (2 blasters) to a commando (assault cannon) build and later a sniper (sniper rifle) build ... and then an operative (blaster rifle) build?

What if your force user doesn't use lightsabers? What if you have a Mara with 2 vibroswords and you like the way they sit currently on the character's back but swap between that and an assassin build? What about Beskads? I can't imagine designing that to be a dual-blade weapon. What about stun batons ... and pikes ... ?

There are things that would be or could be cool but really aren't necessary. When we use outfit designer to switch looks, it's not like our character strips down and then puts the new stuff on. We'd have to run around with a suitcase or duffle bag for that to make sense. Maybe a phone booth would have to drop out of the sky like the vending machine and our character could go in and change.

Unless I missed something, this seems to be all about lightsabers. Okay ... what happens when you want to hot-swap your Merc (2 blasters) to a commando (assault cannon) build and later a sniper (sniper rifle) build ... and then an operative (blaster rifle) build?

 

What if your force user doesn't use lightsabers? What if you have a Mara with 2 vibroswords and you like the way they sit currently on the character's back but swap between that and an assassin build? What about Beskads? I can't imagine designing that to be a dual-blade weapon. What about stun batons ... and pikes ... ?

 

There are things that would be or could be cool but really aren't necessary. When we use outfit designer to switch looks, it's not like our character strips down and then puts the new stuff on. We'd have to run around with a suitcase or duffle bag for that to make sense. Maybe a phone booth would have to drop out of the sky like the vending machine and our character could go in and change.

The weapon you use with style X is tucked away in the loadout that you load for style X.

Nothing else make sense.

Guys... you switch between classes, essentially.

You switch your BH from Mercenary to Sniper?

Your two blaster pistols become unequipped automatically because a Sniper cannot equip blaster pistols.

Simple as that.

If you switch from Trooper Vanguard to Sniper?

You don't unequip your rifle since Snipers can use rifles. BUT you'll really want to equip a sniper rifle for your abilities to work properly.

Same with lightsabers.

The only thing that worries me even slightly is the specific cutscene animations of some classes.

Just now doing a playthrough of the IA and there's a few times she actually pulls out her rifle in cutscenes.

Now, if I'm playing a dual blaster wielding IA, will she pull out a "default" rifle (like other classes do with pistols) or does she now use her pistol?

Most likely the first.

And come to think of it... will the classes that used to use their "default" pistols in cutscenes (like IA's and Troopers) use their equipped pistol if they're using a pistol wielding combat class, or will they still use their "default" pistols?

Those are the only things I'm even slightly worried about.

Everything else seems self explanatory to me. (But not to many others, I gather... from reading the forums here)

Unless I missed something, this seems to be all about lightsabers. Okay ... what happens when you want to hot-swap your Merc (2 blasters) to a commando (assault cannon) build and later a sniper (sniper rifle) build ... and then an operative (blaster rifle) build?

 

...

Yes I don't play much of the Tech oriented classes, so I wanted to stick with what I was familiar with. But my intent (not sure if it came through clearly) was also to address the same art/animation for the Gun classes as well... so uncivilized

Guys... you switch between classes, essentially.

 

...

 

The only thing that worries me even slightly is the specific cutscene animations of some classes.

 

...

 

Those are the only things I'm even slightly worried about.

 

Everything else seems self explanatory to me. (But not to many others, I gather... from reading the forums here)

The Devs could just bypass any animation, institute a 'quick-travel' style black screen style change over and call it a day.

My points were to draw attention to how lame that is, and that they could do better... that if its not something they are looking at already, that they can do better.

So while I personally would like to at least see my single handed lightsaber and my dualsaber on opposite sides of my belt as at least a 'costume' for my current Assassin main, I can acknowledge that others might not care one way or another - but it definitely wouldn't hurt anyone to have some better artistic and animated design(s) associated with the Combat Stances System instead of just a 'pop' your now in a new stance.

The saber classes presumably are the easiest to deal with, as excluding saber pikes, the sabers are small and not very intrusive.

I agree that going back into the coding so that all cut scenes render all equipment and weapons currently 'active' on the player character. (I personally hate when my helmet is automatically removed, even though it is an open face helmet - at least show my character taking the helmet off)

This goes back to my discussion about "Immersion Break".

So whatever they ultimately do, I hope they do their best to avoid immersion breaking design.

The weapon you use with style X is tucked away in the loadout that you load for style X.

 

Nothing else make sense.

I understand how it will work. This thread is asking for an animation that makes sense when you switch builds:

Yes I don't play much of the Tech oriented classes, so I wanted to stick with what I was familiar with. But my intent (not sure if it came through clearly) was also to address the same art/animation for the Gun classes as well... so uncivilized

I was trying to illustrate that while a dualsaber to lightsaber effect is a cool thing, there are other switches to consider that aren't nearly that simple. I doubt your BH wants to walk around wearing an assault cannon, sniper rifle, blaster rifle, and 2 blasters. He's already wearing that heavy armor and sometimes a jetpack. IMO, because of the immense challenges involved in transitioning from each possible build, a "cool effect" is not practical or beneficial to gameplay. On top of that, most people probably won't even see it happen if they have the character window open on the middle of their screen when they switch from build to build.

I was trying to illustrate that while a dualsaber to lightsaber effect is a cool thing, there are other switches to consider that aren't nearly that simple. I doubt your BH wants to walk around wearing an assault cannon, sniper rifle, blaster rifle, and 2 blasters. He's already wearing that heavy armor and sometimes a jetpack. IMO, because of the immense challenges involved in transitioning from each possible build, a "cool effect" is not practical or beneficial to gameplay. On top of that, most people probably won't even see it happen if they have the character window open on the middle of their screen when they switch from build to build.

I was under the impression that there would be a UI quick selector/hotkey system to switch between the combat stances on the fly; that actuate the builds in the character sheet for each stance? At least that's how it came across on the recording of the Twitch Live Stream announcement/reveal...

My thoughts about the Tech/Gun Classes is to use 'fly-in/fly-by' probe droid animation that drop/deliver the larger guns to the character -- and/or the companions toss to the character the larger weapon they are not carrying on themselves?

Tbh the solution for this is something better left to the Developers themselves and their working groups to brainstorm. But droid-spawned "Supply Drops" (or Even a unseen Shuttle Sound crate drop spawn that shows a seamless animation so there's non excessive delay for change over) are perfect for Trooper, BH, Agent, and even Smuggler imo. But again... Dev's are best ones to crack this nut, because there are multiple ways to go about this, and I'm not sure as a player how easy any of them would be to implement (assuming they're haven't even been developing something in the first place?).

*(Update: Like the "Kolto Drip" companion healing skill that drops a small Fly-in Kolto Droid)

I was under the impression that there would be a UI quick selector/hotkey system to switch between the combat stances on the fly; that actuate the builds in the character sheet for each stance? At least that's how it came across on the recording of the Twitch Live Stream announcement/reveal...

We'll probably find out more when this hits the PTS. I would imagine they'll have to redesign the character sheet in some fashion to make this work. I don't think it will be a hot key because you'll probably have more than 1 option.

On a somewhat related note ... I'm not sure if there's any discussion about this yet, but I'm curious how this will affect our inventory. I'm hoping it's designed in a way where we won't have to carry extra gear, tacticals, weapons, etc... in our inv.

We'll probably find out more when this hits the PTS. I would imagine they'll have to redesign the character sheet in some fashion to make this work. I don't think it will be a hot key because you'll probably have more than 1 option.

 

On a somewhat related note ... I'm not sure if there's any discussion about this yet, but I'm curious how this will affect our inventory. I'm hoping it's designed in a way where we won't have to carry extra gear, tacticals, weapons, etc... in our inv.

I watched this entire thing prior to initially posting this thread...

They make it sound like we will have new pages on the Character Sheet to hold our Combat Stance "Builds", and then their will be something on or near the toolbar UI that we can 'select' (and probably hotkey bind as well) on the fly.

For as limited as the reveal was, it was still an informative overview - I would recommend watching it if you are interested in the Combat Stance system they're preparing.