A completely solid point, and I have to say you planned it out better than I have (not that it is too late for me to enjoy it as you have) and I know there aren't many players like us(with the ability to readily understand the mechanics of other classes, their counters etc) but that doesn't make us special ... there are a, albeit a minority, a few gamers I know that just stick to a class and learn through defeat...and become master of their given abilities and limitations. I feel as though weapon choice isn't nor shouldn't be the only deciding factor for playing a class, but speaking from firsthand experience I cannot play my scoundrel anymore as it is because the aesthetics of the Operative are much more appealing to me but along with that I'd rather not have a European accent and be surrounded by murders...(yea, you don't have to tell me I can be picky---I just know what I like/dislike) I agree they are all good, stories and all for the most part (save dirty kick), but I will tailor my style of play to the most cosmetically close to my conceptual character (5x FAST haha) That means I play a neutral Jedi Knight...that I dislike the resource mechanic of, and even though my vanguard does 2-3x dps being only pseudo-ranged (shared tree atm) and having a much more enjoyable energy mechanic I will stick with tank/dps guardian. With the option of said thread I could play and enjoy a Shadow/assassin tank/dps for the story without feeling ridiculously dumb with a dbl saber (to each their own just my opinion ) And the replay-ability of alts grows because I'm not forced to have class and weapon go hand in hand, whilist still being able to enjoy the game as you have illustrated.

While I have to agree the diversity of available races amounts to "what color do you want your avatar to be?", and especially now that we know races have no impact on character other than cosmetic and/or human vs non-human references in the story...I would like to know what they have planned for the race/class combos. I'm not asking you to spill your guts about the legacy system plans for the next 5 years, rather the idea and direction of the project with some of the basic information. For those that didn't get their race/class combo that was ideal, or they know that their ideal race/class combo stretches the borders of the lore, it would be nice to know what we will have available, a more definitive stance from Bioware on the lore vs race/class combos in-game. Is the picture of the PB jedi going to be a reality? Should we expect Chiss to enroll themselves in Jedi/Sith training despite arguments of their force sensitivity? Or is it really just hey get to 50 and level up a lolborg knight after your awesome one of a kind pistol-wielding lolborg scoundrel?( who are brothers btw) Obviously I'm in favor of diversity, looking at this objectively 1.2 can be a way for Bioware to expand diversity in a game that has mirrors everywhere I'm not asking for new races so soon, and while it be nice to play a tradoshan I can wait if they had different ideas of implementing the NPC races.

I think it is an interesting idea that the players could even begin to organize to illustrate our interest in the idea. Not that I believe many people will want to do something creative with their mind that isn't already spoon fed to them via a game menu... Seriously though the idea kind of has checks and balances in its own and would greatly encourage PvP at some level (a leveling group of buddies take a contract and split it after superior tactics vs an inferior foe, a known BH on a server enters a WZ and sees a pricey target, maybe some RP ensues, at least the BH knows he has a potential target to go hunting outside of WZs!)! I really can think of a bunch of different fun examples, but in short I like the idea and think it would be a positive step towards more open world PvP... +1

/Signed its a simple feature that I would greatly appreciate, but by no means need it. Sure it's annoying at times if you are used to 24h clock but not game changing imho. A standardized server time for all on their server is a great ideal if not already implemented. (the impression I was under was that the clock @ the bottom of the mini-map was standard as per server/timezone?)

Haha touche while I may see what you are saying in the long run I argue that your argument is counter-productive...to have/want the desire to reply alts you want to have variety...for those who love the story of, say, the smuggler, would they be more inclined to roll a scoundrel after a previous one and a gunslinger if they knew they would be on the great pistol hunt for lvls 1-50 all over again?? Or would they arguably be more enticed by the idea that they can make their next smuggler a rifleman? What if it is the rifle itself that is all a subscriber wants for their character? After giving in to the darkside to play a playstyle they find enjoyable as an Operative...their options are play the same story, or go to the republic and play a vanguard (which funny enough plays similar minus stealth & heals, within the shared trees)... Do these changes fit their ideal character that they are paying 15$/ a month for? No? then how long will they continue to play someone else's idea of a smuggler? Realistically, how can weapon diversity be a bad thing (barring the arugment that everyone is a 12 year old darth Maul fanboy because assumptions make an...) ?? Given the fact that there are ways to clearly denote which class is which without restricting a player's choice.

I am tempted to also ask if they are planning on anything like this as we know nothing of the Legacy system or what it offers. I know that I would love a Jedi Knight Cyborg, neutral through and through, but I don't know if I should wait for Legacy in hopes of making one (and getting useful neutral relics!) by leveling a less appreciated alt (who technically will be my first char to 50) or should I just roll up what I want to play and hope that one day I can re-race (lol), design from the ground up to look like the character I had envisioned for Star Wars...?!?? Heeelp me bioware, your our only hope! I know I'm not the only one that didn't get the race/combo they wanted at start, and it would be nice to either: A) Be informed on the topic of the post at hand or B) Give us at least a greater idea of the race/class combos coming in March w/ 1.2... I don't demand anything and I know that people often view forums/forum-goers as the center for those who like to ***** but so far I have to say I rate the level of information flow to the public satisfactory...meaning I appreciate the information flow but there is room for improvements. You don't have to tell us designs of 1 year out systems that you are still unsure about, but I know not just the forum committee would love to hear a few more options on the legacy system or more generalizations about the direction you want to head with legacy unlocks !!!

I've read through all the posts in this topic because I, too, would love to see an implementation of this in some form. Aside from a few obvious trolls there are a lot of great ideas in here and solid arguments and I really hope that bioware takes note of this. We don't want a drastic overhaul of anything LOL!! Simply give all classes the ability to diversify in their weapon choice WITHIN REASON !!!! The Star Wars Universe is/was never this restrictive in any game/book/movie I have ever played/watched/read! Bioware has stated in previous postings (I'm sure the dev tracker has them) that it is based on enemies in PvP to allow them to visually identify an opponent within the first GCD (~1.5sec)... However... If this is truly the case, I will not insult any differing viewpoint to this, rather I will just offer an idea to make both camps happy--- Give us diversity in weapons and place a small circular border around the character picture of "your target"...a low key circle around the portrait of each and every character in the game that has a color that is clearly defined by the gameworld to be a specific base-class & AC!!!!!! Example: Purple=Iquisitor/Consulars >Red=Assassin/shadow >Black=Sorc/sage Blue=Knights/Warriors >Green=Sents/Mara >Yellow=jugg/guardian Imagine---you click on your target, or you are jumped by a stealth class, or you tab-target a potential threat in the field(suggestion-improve tab-targeting!): A small circle borders said enemy player's portrait the CLEARLY indicates Purple, and then a circle within that also clearly denotes black---Instantaneously you know purple mean watch for their lightning CC/KBs , and that black means you need to get into range so you can disrupt a potential heal. Basically a system like this could notify any/all players that are keen enough to target the enemy the wish to attack, thereby allowing them visually to decipher what their enemy is going to be throwing at them. They will also be able to tell via powers used in the field, stealth, etc. If you are colorblind I'm jealous because the red sabers on Coruscant look tacky imho... In all seriousness, for the colorblind, perhaps different levels of opacity, or paterns instead of circles denoting MOST IMPORTANTLY the AC (at least!)!! Developers could even implement just small enough to be visibly distinguishable icons (LOL @ BUFF ICON JOKEZ) of each base-class that we see upon character creation or in the final warzone tally... All in all I agree the diversity is great in an online environment and Star Wars lore does not limit in any way the type of saber based on the character's role in battle ( aka class choice) I know many people that would like double-bladed warriors, but I know just as many single-bladed assassins/maras...personally I am all about the one handed saber and the animations for the JK (some are too fancy/flashy imho) when using both hands on a 1her. tldr- animations are in-game already and can be somewhat shared : kira leaping and general dbl bladed thuggery Elara Dorne & her pistol (nice shot!) a Knight's single/2xblade's "dispatch" ability can be flipped with "spinning strike" or visa versa dependent on weapon choice The animations are thereas some of the more intelligent posts have stated, the abilities can be given the inherent properties of the class and people can still diversify within reason!! FYI---If a Operative can <10M with a rifle, I want my smuggler to be able to also, but I don't think just because I have 3+ melee skills that he should be given the opportunity to use an electrostaff. It would be awsome to be able to use a vibroknife also but I won't get my hopes up... A sage/Sorc casts at times with both hands and imho shouldn't be allowed to have a saber per hand (or they could make it fun for them and let them cast w/o sabers drawn lol) A JK/SW is a combat master just like the Havok squad trooper, and imho should be allowed to use the largest medium of weapons. Heck I'd be a smuggler healer or mando healer since EGA if they could be effective with a rifle. But tangents aside, this is what I mean when I say WITHIN REASON! Keep it positive , good thread

^^^^ pew pew dirty fighting here, love top dmg with heals mixed in wish Quick shot was with the shotgun though, it has the sound and all!!! 1 more shotgun move please!!

good suggestions!! Shift + spacebar is something I just started using, and I know some people like to use f1-12 and with modifiers I enjoy my heals on my mouse-wheel/click personally, smuggler here

Funny how forums devolve to, you didn't read what I said, no you! I've read your posts, I'll keep it short because this issue isn't only of yours and mine. Expertise increases healing done, damage, and reduces damage. no other stat in this game balls out of control like that. You yourself stated removal of expertise gear would only mean that top tier PvPers (with the gear to prove it) would only heal for less, take more dmg, and deal less dmg (BUT STILL OWN as you say) As long as when taking expertise out, battlemaster gear's remaining stats are balanced COMPETITIVELY with top tier raid gear then all I see is an ADDITION of players making more PvP and more fun.

The last two pages are starting a really great discussion imo. Whether it be what JingleHell said or the very intelligent point on the two different schools of thought (your name escapes me pardon!) Ignore the guy making personal attacks unless he has something meaningful to add. What do they tell you to do at the zoo? I think both schools of thought are valid when it comes to mmos (although I clearly prefer skill based games like many of the good posters in here ) Gear grinds are anticlimactic imho. Life is about the journey, and that is why like many a poster has said in this discussion, 10-49 PvP is where it''s at!!! @ AJUNTA PALL couldn't say how the 50s crowd is, but 10-49 it is solid on faction ratio , I always find a match within 5 (maybe 10 min max) of queing. KEEP it up AJUNTA!!! On topic, once again you Delavger (sorry on the butcher) stated that: IF you remove expertise from gear battlemaster gear's stats still trump entry level gear. How does that not sounds like there is apart of the solution within your bickering? No expertise=less of disparity (but as you stated STILL A REWARDED DISPARITY) between "tiers" of PvP efficiency. both parties compromised, both hated expertise, and deep six'd it..lol This opens up potentially MORE of a pool of people to PvP with= more fun!!! (more people flock to super fun pvp if there is less of a disparity brings newcomers from the PvE realm, or newcomers to the game) WINWIN is WIN WIN *** edit IN: I caught your last post, and I appreciate you being more civil, but be honest, "all you were trying to do" was attack people on a basically anonymous forum that disagree with you (delete your account, go fail, go to school etc etc I wont quote you as to not embarrass you) Now that we are past your inward honesty, I agree, I don't think we should just poof it without adjusting the system. no taking without adding in this bare-ish bones PvP system 2nd edit: @ Elathan (butcher with names sry) I tend to lean more on your side of the argument but not every DISCUSSION on a FORUM is about/nor made by whining kids or people that have no lives. I hate it when developers crack and just nerf this that (even though I still own with my smuggler, quote me im elite haha) or drastic overhauls that neglects big parts of the playerbase. Let's avoid sweeping generalizations about who or what generation is to blame for whatever ruined anything. Let's start with this post and any all subsequent posts to attempt ignore those that complain aimlessly complain OR ATTEMPT to illustrate the facts if you see differently. By calling a generation of people whining babies or that certain mmoers are of a gilded age and everything is on a platter, it only putting you in the same category complaints about complainers tldy ---stay positive and you will see positivity around you

I like what you have to say, for the most part... I just want to quote you on these because I just read this and have to agree that GW2 is probably more suited for you, and I know for me as well, but I would expect someone that is ideally looking for an equal, skill based playing field to not be so heavily in favor of pampering current kings of the hill. And attacking people like me, who think expertise is a joke and a lame excuse for game design (separation from PvE/PvP gear is necessary though) doesn't show me squat. All I see is negativity, and it's a shame because you probably have some good ideas based on your keen taste in PvP styles. Look , no flamewars wanted, and I agree that the fix is not here on the forums yet but work together to find one ** hence a FORUM! If what you say is true about the stats on battlemaster gear still blowing starter 50 gear out of the water (sans expertise) then that sounds like THE solution to me. Good players are rewarded with better gear, PvEs can compete if they so chose, and beginners have MORE of a level playing field knowing they are working towards (albeit aimlessly) their best gear available.

Just my two cents: Coming from DCUO where the PvP gear grind and PvP gear gap was tremendous I hate to hear all the 50 PvPers here say @ expertise. It's clearly a hotly debated topic... I consider myself a good PvP player and while no expert, I have multiple (5) characters in Swtor under level 30 with capped wrz commendations and on two-three characters 5-600 of the higher tier warzone commendations (name escapes me)...yes I manage my time very well, mostly PvPing. Since I don't just like to puff myself up , I'm saying rewarding above average to excellent PvP players gear that further increases their ability against the same cannon fodder that they so built their skill on MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL!!! In ANY game!! Yes I understand the developers wanted to reward everyone, the good and the bad, and that is partly in this system (albeit flawed)...as another poster in here has stated a few times: 1-Good PvP players do well by PvPing 2-Bad players or less talented/newer players make up 90% of ^^^his/her "training" kills/skills 3-Rewarding the good players and increasing the gap between experienced/inexperienced PvP players can and will drive many players away that only want to be as good as ^^^ It does not work, in DCUO people would just sit in the spawn and farm until they could even stare at a geared player @ max level. The difference might not be as tremendous here but the fact remains giving better stats to an already superior force truly leeches the will of the opponents. With that said, not all players react that way, and I don't encourage them to. In a system of eat or be eaten in Swtor PvP, communication and teamwork will trump talented players. And when both sides warring realize this, it makes for a better overall PvP experience. To reward PvP players separately from PvE players maybe make the PvP rewards customizable gear (IE pick the stats [within reason] for extreme max level fun!) Or Reward them with amazing visual options of gear that can at least COMPETE against top tier raid gears (once again to keep the playing field level) I saw it happen first hand after the rebirth of a f2p DCUO: the frustrated playerbase over (ofc it wasn't only a gear problem) @ DCUO that at the end of the day love having fun in a PvP setting but just aren't that good (no offense) will grow to loathe the gear separation and just unsub. Let's stay positive in this post and figure out a way to get rid of expertise! I PvP around 75% of my Swtor time (hence no 50s ) and I know I am talented. I DO NOT NEED EXPERTISE to make my life easier in the PvP realm!!!! NOR SHOULD ANY COMPETENT PLAYER! saludos

Without reading too many of the recent ones, I would just like to add that MEANINGFUL PvP, mostly Open PvP have always been my best experiences in mmo PVP. UO: when it was not just kill or be killed, but also sometimes testing the waters to see if you could make a friend in a dangerous location. Full loot of course was frustrating, but I have to say back before near every MMO became item centric, it was so refreshing to know I could look like an individual, be effective in combat, and that there was meaning behind logging into the game---as in fight or flight reactions, making friends, and knowing that not everything in the game world is safe and sound in your instanced backpack. SHADOWBANE: with is open world kill or be killed mentality, and absolutely the most in depth MMO character customization I have ever enjoyed. No, not the chargen, it was standard of its time, but the ability to pick attributes based on what you wanted to accomplish, use any weapon that you could experiment with, and place skill points in skills to increase their effectiveness (if you played it Im sure you knew how many different builds their were throughout the cycle of the game, for each class, and the sheer madness that some people tried that became stables like mino doomsayers or aelf ww xbow squads) The lore tied to the classes and the world making PvP feel meaningful in the struggle for territory, castle sieges, and PvE zones that were goldmine farming spots Balance was hard to find in such an in-depth system but for everything Shadowbane was it was the best PvP I've expeirenced (that was considered an MMORPG) PLANETSIDE: wasn't an RPG as much as an FPS, but it took some positives and negatives of both and mashed it up into the most fun I've ever had in an online game. Period. At its peak, imagine fps battles over bases that added/subtracted to your empire's productivity and abilities throughout the continents, massive battles were you truly had hundreds of people actively working together to take a base with coordinated airdrops, air assaults, tank battles, infiltration, gigantic footzergs, etc etc. Nothing comes close imo, it was just a shame they butchered it and didn't stand by their customer base. Here's to hoping gl on #2 DCUO: It was more a console combat game than a true MMORPG, but also my favorite times in PvP were had here. Stringing combos together and block/blockbreaking mechanic made it so truly a skilled level 6 could kill a fresh top level player (granted his skill wasn't great and he wasn't in PvP gear, but that basically defined the gankers in that game) Exploits and lack of information killed that game for me, but mechanically, this game's PvP was the best I have ever witnessed. This imho reinvented what I would love to do in any game's PvP combat as it truly felt skill based at the beginnings of the game before obnoxious PvP gear stats and rampant exploits. If you never played it but you like action-style (read: tekken-ish mixed with the various ideas from the above games) the combat is truly revolutionary. Every MMO had its flaws, but those were my favorites. Just to add, very shortly as I know I already lost some readers --- SWTOR PvP didnt reinvent the wheel, but if anyone says it's not fun they aren't playing the right class or they are putting too much pressure on themselves. Granted Illum is very disappointing to me and with the only other feasible option usually being an instanced PvP match it can take a lot of wind out my sails being such a huge PvP fan. My suggestion would be create more meaningful PvP experiences that have to do with the [ongoing fued and upcoming war] between the factions, incentives to underpopulated sides to help even balance, and more customization in every aspect of the game. Set and Setting for the individual in PvP experiences (whether in group PvP or solo opportunities) can really pump up the fun factor. Not meaningful as in an in-game reason to want to fight for the cause, as much as a meaningful reason to get a majority of the game's PvP population to actively compete against each other because of the amount of fun it provides. I play for fun, but I never said it was fun to lose tldy for teh lazy- amigo you're on a forum Learn to read! hahah---but basically read the bolded and if you played them I'm sure we had similar tastes to a degree, if you didn't, just know that SET AND SETTING have made my experiences, and no I don't RP much !!!

I'd definitely be interested in Space PvP, the possibilities for fun and new, random encounters daily really stack up after adding something like that !!! Of course we would all like to see it done right, and while I am not against going towards the route of some semblance of a flight simulator, based on what we have now I'm not sure if that was ever their direction. One thing does come to mind, however...Epic times on 1 TV multiplayer with friends back in the days playing, you guessed it, battlefront (not that its space combat is what I want )!!! However, we would select a bunch of random maps and always hide a space battle or two in the mix, as the sheer fun factor of flying a ship into an Empire's docking bay and stepping out for a sabotage mission is hands down some of the most fun I've had in old school PvP since Goldeneye/Perfect Dark GoGO space combat and multiplayer missions! +1