Besides defeating the Mandalorians with such efficiency that they never again emerged as a galactic powerhouse, creating an army that quickly conquered one-third of the entire galaxy, postponing the Great Galactic War for three-centuries, persuading Vitiate to initiate the Treaty of Corurscant (saving the Republic in the process), and paving the way for the Rule of Two by being Darth Bane's main inspiration, among other things, sure. How is that a half-success? Sacrifice is necessary in war, and it's not like Revan didn't intentionally cause a lot of the sacrifices to happen, as KotOR II goes in great depth explaining. The Mandalorians, once a galactic powerhouse that would have conquered the Republic, were reduced to a small clan on Dxun, and even after four-thousand years still weren't really half of what they were under Mandalore the Ultimate's rule. Revan won big. But of course let's ignore Revan breaking free from the Emperor's mind control or nearly successfully conquering the Republic while doing it. He conquered far more territory than Exar Kun or Naga Sadow ever did. Revan's most crucial successes can be found in what seemed to be defeat. He manipulated the Emperor telepathically for three-hundred years in postponing the Great Galactic War, partially resisted the joint mental attacks by the Dread Masters and also the Emperor, and then after the Sacking of Coruscant made Vitiate offer a treaty. So, Revan single-handily ending the Great Galactic War seems like a success if you ask me (or anyone). While these are failures, what he accomplished shouldn't be underestimated. He took a small radical cult on Dromund Kaas and turned it into a galactic-spanning organization with thousands of members secretly infiltrating every possible level up government all the way up to the Dark Council. Darth Marr even stated that the Revanites were a threat greater than anything they have ever faced before on Yavin IV. That's extremely impressive. Unless you wanted Revan to just be some mysterious character without personality, they really didn't. The characteristics he shows on the Foundry and in the expansion are based on what we already know of Revan from KotOR II. He was always the guy who would do whatever it takes to stop an enemy - no matter the cost. He applies the "ends justify the means" quote to its fullest, and that's consistently shown throughout all of Revan's portrayals. My hope is that Revan ultimately defeats Vitiate, or at least helps the Outlander when the time comes. I think it would be cool if the spirits of many dead Jedi and Sith come and drag Vitiate down to the depths of hell, which is what they did to Palpatine in his final death in the Dark Empire comic series. A fitting ending, in my opinion.

Really? Fascinating! Do you have any screenshot, quote, or video of this? I'd love to see it.

The part where you act like people actually want to watch you two attempt to debate.

Book and page number?

Uh, I'm currently unconvinced on Revan's superiority over Starkiller in Sense-related powers. Note my sarcasm.

Is zoltan literally arguing Starkiller is better than Revan at precognition / visions? OK yeah, I'm out. Peace.

You can. I couldn't find the willpower to even read all the pages I missed. Just when I say to myself, "OK, this is the absolute limit of stupidity," two certain members here never fail to prove me wrong. BTW Beni, I want a public concession on KMC, SWTOR, and CV that you were wrong about Revan's ritual thing. Failure to do so will result in a concession on every topic we have ever disagreed on, and all future topics.

Actually, it's not mentioned at all, because Revan didn't have Echani training. Way to be a complete and total liar. I did, however, state that Revan was a master of the Echani arts, which is true. Revan's mastery came naturally, however, and wasn't necessarily learned, as Avellone stated. I'm sad to see you're not banned yet. I'll try to personally email the mods and see if I can change that. --- --- --- Also, the notion Revan was in peak condition in the Forgotten Terrace battle might actually be a more stupid statement than the Star Forge wasn't a nexus or that Depa Billaba is on the same level as Mace Windu, also stated by Beni.

BTW Beni, a Bible-sized response isn't really necessary for the above. I'm merely trying to defend Rhyltran's statement as not being deserving of the facepalming and such. For people who are extremely "oh my lord don't insult me", it was unquestionably uncalled for and ironic.

I'm currently undecided on the matter, and it's not necessarily out of sync with people moving faster than sound, etc. etc. Just read the Revenge of the Sith novel where they straight up claim Jedi's reactions are near light-speed. Not that they are, but the fact of the matter is authors have portrayed Jedi's speed as incredibly fast in some works. Basically, you didn't have to type all that. I've seen the argument before, and presented a lot better. The belief that it all happened under a span of second comes in the sense of dramatization. That Meetra Surik's seeing the fight end before her eyes and muses to herself that it really ended before it truly began. That she didn't even have the chance to intervene and fight alongside Revan together united again... The fact respectable and credible debaters who rather despise Revan take the stance I detailed out for you speaks for itself. It is indeed open for interpretation, but given that fact it's not really that applicable for debating purposes. Like, read how the fight is described in the novel. Here: Notice the following fact: The Revan vs Vitiate engagement lasted shorter than it took for T3 to seal the throne room door despite the fact that the material he used to seal the door was able to instantly harden upon contact with air, so the process is quite fast. That's certainly within a matter of seconds, IMO. Though I'd like to repeat myself again: "I'm currently undecided on the matter"

To sum up your hilarious little rant: - it's irrelevant when you insult members, albeit with reasons, but not when Aurbere does, albeit with reasons. - you care more about your public image on a forum board than the reality of your public internet life. - you're trying to gain a moral high-ground / the parent figure in an area where you admit you actually can't. - you're basing the general consensus of the public opinion on... looks just like you're butthurt. Basically, you're clearly not trying to warn Aurbere about the public opinion, you're trying to take the high-ground against Aurbere because you currently disagree with how he's operating. The reasons you list that try to legitimatize your anger are all areas that your far worse at. Not only that, but you basically admitted you care more about the public opinion than the actual reality (you're fake). Just admit your failures, limitations, and outright obvious bias. If it was Aurbere supporting you in terms of Darth Krayt and Shaak Ti, I'd bet my life you wouldn't say that rant to him. Feel free to respond or not... it doesn't really matter, you destroyed yourself on this one. Hilarious.

Her connection to the Force should have only grown stronger under the title of Grand Master.

Well the fact you think he slaughtered me probably comes from the fact you disagree with my reasoning, kek. And NGL I forgot you disagree with that one as well. May just not use it entirely then. BTW Selenial, you've said way worse, to way more people. So the fact you're trying to take the moral high-ground here against Aurb is outright laughable. Just yesterday you were attacking that member in the PT Revan thread. EDIT: Looks like you removed your part, but I'm not removing mine, kek. If you really want to take on Aurbere, do it here so I can laugh at you all across the way. Albeit, Beni has some room to make a claim. But you? infinite keks

Amen. And especially given Battle Meditation, in the past, has been implied to counter-act Revan's Precognition.

I think you're forgetting someone there, mate. Like, someone with the first name "Hero" and the last time "Tython". And the argument... crumbles. PS: I have fully predicted your counter-argument and will share if I'm right about it.