In general terms you're correct, but within the limits of swtor pvp I don't agree. You need a roughly even game, or one side being just a little bit stronger, so you're relatively free to take initiatives on the map, make an actual difference, maybe end up in some 1v1 situations, and so on. But as it is, with so many games being one-sided where you can usually predict the winner within the first 30-60 seconds, the learning suffers. As one side dominates the other, the losing team will spend a lot of time locked out respawning and its players will be constantly outnumbered everywhere on the field. No matter how skilled you are, under circumstances like that you don't get much of a chance to be a good player, not to mention actually develop your skills. The same goes for the winning side, it's easy to *feel* like you're doing well and kicking ass when the opposition just melts away before you, but just like story mode pve, it doesn't really help you improve.

Yeah, I'm not out to point any individuals out obviously; I'm sure most people caring enough to post in here will also tend to be civil in advice and criticism to other players. But even so I'd also think you know not everyone puts it like that. Ok, fair enough on that. But then, such an environment isn't really dependant on "really good" pvp players being present, and I would argue most of the learning in actual playing (as opposed to reading and watching videos) isn't about watching how someone else does things, as there isn't a whole lot of time for that in pvp, but rather getting to play relatively even matches. When one side more or less farms the other there's usually not a lot of room for developing your skills whether you're on the winning or losing team. At least that's been true for me. I agree with all you're saying here, but again, I'm not talking about you or me personally. Fact still is a lot of players refuse to engage in pvp, partially because of toxicity and very likely partially because they don't like getting killed/ganked without really knowing what to do.

That's also not how it works though. What you say may well be true in an actual office or a sports team, yes, but certainly not in swtor. In my experience a majority of games are played in relative or absolute silence -- it's not like you see a lot of experienced players eager to take rookies under their wing and bring them up to speed. If anything there's a greater risk of being chewed out about it, which contributes to the problem. Not saying it's toxicity per se, but you probably know as well as I do that it's not always stated in a reasonable manner. Anyway, my point wasn't the toxicity, but again trying to point out that alienating new players and making them reluctant to queue again isn't going to help pvp -- and like I said I personally think this is a bigger overall loss than having the top-tier people quit.

@AocaVII @Luciferior My point was in regard to the part of your post that I quoted -- I don't have any personal issue with skilled players and you can keep your keybinds -- but I disagree with the notion that the "really good" players quitting would mean the end of pvp. I rather feel the pvp player pool is losing out on the other end, i.e. having a hard time getting new players interested. And that's not even taking into account various degrees of toxicity in asking people not to queue unless they're already experienced and fully geared.

Not sure about the last part; it's not like skilled pvp players are making pvp more enjoyable in general for the average/not-so-skilled queuer. If you magically reset all the pvp skill and experience in swtor, the people who ended up playing would likely have a better time as they felt more on equal footing -- and would then want to queue again.

This is overstating it a bit imo, the pops aren't back to back, but you rarely have to wait more than 15-20 minutes during afternoon and evening times. The last character I leveled the past couple of weeks was around valor 60 when hitting level 80, and got most of the 70->80 experience through pvp. It's not exactly a lot of amateurs who "just want to have fun" though, but fairly competitive -- a lot of players are in the 75+ range with maxed gear and augments. Which I guess makes sense, pvp isn't fun when you lose.

I'd say sniper -- a merc has a much harder time keeping the jugg off him, whereas given ideal conditions, like someone posted above a sniper can keep a jugg at a distance and/or slowed for a very long time. That's only 1v1 and with enough room though. If anyone else joins in the sniper's a sitting duck.

Well, I've tried out a madness sorc for a few days now, and yeah.. so far in warzones it's a tremendous difference, you can 1v1 pretty much anyone (assassins have been the trickiest, not all sure there) even without being particularly used to the ins and outs of the spec, and if you don't get bothered by a second enemy (or face a sin) you often don't even have to use dcds, just like my experience that prompted this thread to begin with. You can also thrive in the relative disorder of warzones, e.g. spread your dots around, and relatively easy get away from less focused pressure situations and often survive and recoup even when someone tries to follow you to get the kill. In arenas the difference is smaller compared to a merc. You can't stand up to the direct focus of multiple players as well, and lose a lot of effectiveness in those situations -- so it's not all that uncommon that you get chosen as the first target. This is also the only real weakness I've spotted so far. 1v1, there really isn't any obvious one.

I don't know, it seems to put the onus on the people getting farmed to give up collectively, and doesn't seem better than the individual being allowed (with relatively small repercussions) to leave. I'd consider at least the following three alternatives to be better: 1. Prevent the forming of premades altogether, i.e. you can only solo queue. This would seem like the most direct way of addressing the problem, even if pvp matchups will still be uneven. 2. Premades not prevented but if you do queue with 2+ people you can only get matched vs other configurations with 2+ people queued, and you will have to wait in the queue until that happens. This allows for premades to exist but might lead to the waiting time becoming longer both for them and solo players. 3. Allow players to preview participants and queue status of the warzone/arena before accepting to join, including an indicator showing if some players queued together. That way, if you don't want to play vs a premade you can simply opt out; no penalty needed since you never joined to begin with.

I think the current penalties are ok. Relatively lenient and keep you from instantly requeuing but get worse if you repeat the behaviour, though also not so rough that you feel forced into staying put to get farmed.

Yeah, I realize I may have asked a question that doesn't really have any kind of specific, concise answer. Since posting I've come to that very conclusion, going to do some pvp as a madness sorc and see what kind of problems I run into. Also I can see not losing to them 100% of the time, certainly if there's a big skill difference -- but just like what prompted me to post in the first place, that feeling that someone just facerolled you without having to resort to any of the tactics normally associated with pvp in general or the class in particular is a bit hard to digest. So the question remains, assuming the madness sorc knows what he's doing and doesn't make any obvious mistakes, is there a way through that or does the answer end up being more along the lines of just not engaging 1v1? I don't know about this one. I hear you on the skill level, but in my own experience, that part is often balanced by lowbie/sub-80 pvp not being one-sided ordeals just as frequently. At level 80 premades are common and in many cases you can accurately predict how a match is going to end within 30 seconds after starting. And in a one-sided match, whether you're on the winning or losing side, there aren't a lot of opportunities for developing your skills.

Thanks for the detailed reply -- to start off, yeah, I could probably have used this better, didn't really watch and wait for any particular cast. I've used the power surge + concussion missile as a neat trick now and then, but not in this fight. I can't really see what I'd gain from stunning the sorc, especially if I'm already dotted up. Also he might as well just use his stun breaker, it's not like I can follow it up with a hard stun. The interrupt is a good point though, like flare I could probably have used it better. Again I'm not sure I see the strategy here, as in what will running away get me? Against several other classes I can understand it, but here my health will keep going down if I'm dotted, he'll heal from them, my damage will go to zero without los and he has access to more self heals than I do. Even if he just waits and lets me stand behind a wall, odds are that when I go back out I'll likely be at more of a disadvantage than when I went in. Almost but not quite the same as you. I usually run the hunter killer droid instead of power barrier, and jet escape instead of energy rebounder. I guess it makes me a little less geared for pure 1v1, but they come in handy in warzones. Yeah, pretty much the same, usually use my regen when I can and then pop kolto shot to keep it at 10 stacks until needed. Haha, yeah, no I realize they work in different ways and use them one after another like I said. Very much like explained in that video, though I sometimes combine energy shield with the warzone adrenal to stack DR. I'm not sure how well responsive safeguards works vs dots though. Hmm, yeah at least with IO it might make it more reasonable to play for time. I'll try it out at some point. Yeah, in many situations it's a great ability, I guess that added to my frustration here: like with so many other of the things I could do it felt like there was just no real effect/didn't change the outcome in any way. Edit: going further with this, the general feeling was that it seemed like such an uneven encounter that even if I'd played it perfectly, the outcome would still have been the same. Maybe the sorc would have been forced to heal actively or use some los, but still not be in any real danger of losing. It's a bit like the feeling of fighting an operative -- if they know what they're doing, there's not really anything you can do to beat them 1v1 -- even if you make the optimal choice in every situation, the best you can hope for is to play for time. The difference is that at least an op or a sin have to be able to take their sweet time to kill you, dip out of combat, open again from stealth and so on, something you don't always get the time and space to do -- they can't just run up and facetank you without worrying about their own healthbar.

I'm pvping as a merc to learn the class better and have so far been able to hold my own in most situations, be it group or 1v1 I could at least feel I was contributing and when I lost to someone at least I gave them a good run for their money. When I faced a madness sorc alone though, it was like running into a brick wall. I play arsenal, we were both around level 78, I'm fully geared out in 306 gear and tactical. I went through all my dcds one after the other (could probably have used flare better, but can't see it making a big difference), and the sorc just stood there. Didn't have to pop bubble or actively heal, didn't phase walk, didn't even try to los. Literally just stood there and face tanked all my damage, and when I went down he was still around 40% health. I'm relatively new at merc so is there anything I'm missing here? Any way through their dps+self heal I'm not seeing? Does IO fare better than arsenal? It seems like if you try to run and recover, you'll still take damage from the dots while the sorc heals up.. and it's not like you can outrun them. Even electro net doesn't do much against an opponent who doesn't have to move or pop any escape.

They can when facing a single melee opponent, e.g. they handle juggs and marauders well, and PTs better than some classes. Put 2+ opponents on them though, or even one ranged, and their ability to keep themselves alive drops very quickly. Under any kind of serious focus they really struggle to do more than slightly delay their demise. On top of that, since they need to be stationary for such a big part of their damage output they're very vulnerable to being los:ed.

Maybe the most simple, but probably more logical like OP implies to change how premades work, e.g. if you queue as a group you'll only be matched against other groups and if you solo queue you'll only be matched against other solos. Most "skilled premade" players aren't all that hard to overcome when you place them with randoms. Don't really have to do much more.