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BioWare, your bug-laden operations are driving players away from the game

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
BioWare, your bug-laden operations are driving players away from the game

JDotter's Avatar

06.05.2014 , 08:01 AM | #21
When people stop throwing money at bioware via cartel market and asking about left handed lightsabers and other stupid **** like sage as jedi bioware might be forced to get a proper content team and not 2-4 people chain smoking to get a operation out every 6-9 months.

The issue stated in this thread is a aggro issue, have your dps not go ham for 4 seconds and have the draxxus tank pick up a guardian

tanerb's Avatar

06.05.2014 , 08:41 AM | #22
Sad thing is not a single response. If this was some CM armor color issue, you could see 3 mod response by now.

Ruskaeth's Avatar

06.05.2014 , 11:57 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Did you ever try to clear Soa NiM at launch?
Heh yeah.. it was frustrating, oh so frustrating. It was still funny to see how people developed solutions to counter bugs thought.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar

06.05.2014 , 12:37 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Ruskaeth View Post
Heh yeah.. it was frustrating, oh so frustrating. It was still funny to see how people developed solutions to counter bugs thought.
:-) I still think Soa was one of the harder at-level progression fights, just because of how insanely unreliable it was. It had so many "mechanics", and you never knew which set you were going to get! And so while the fight itself is (and was) trivial, the set of things your group had to respond to was a lot broader than most of the current tier fights.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

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Methoxa's Avatar

06.06.2014 , 02:08 AM | #25
On the Draxus fight : The Op remarks the fight as buggy. There is only one bug which is a visual bug regarding the cleave of the guardians. According to your wipe log you were killed 2 times by that cleave. Biggest Problem seems that one of your tank cant see the adds quick enough because of loading times. There is no questioning that NM requires stable and good perfoming pcs. Loading times on adds during a bossfight are horrible but are most likely to be clientsided. Meaning your tank seems to have a not so good perfoming pc. Its stats (cpu/memory/graphiccard) are not so important but its overall perfomance ( can be lowered by trash programs that are executed in the background). If your tank can rid of the problem he could aggro those mobs. Next thing about those guardians is that after their thundering wave they jump on a new target and cast ravage. This ravage can be interrupted by using a good timed taunt. This occurs every 9 seconds or so. This is what you seem to call the "random threat drop". This mechanic is also present on hm mode. Not taunting the guardian at this point could mean that at a certain point the tank could loose aggro ( taunting increases aggro basically ). Loosing aggro shortly before the guardian is about to cast his cleave will show the cleave in direction to the tank but the guardian is actually looking at one of your dps ( the one that got aggro ) . This is a visual bug . But this bug only occurs when your tanks loose aggro ( not the ravage thing ). Protip : Dont dmg the guardians unless all other adds are down ensuring your tanks to keep aggro. If they still loose aggro ( not the ravage thing ) you might want to swap them. Because Brontes wont be easier than Draxus. Actually a tank with a pc that needs 20seconds in order to load an add will wipe you at most bosses. Also he might have problems with seeing Kephess and seeing the orbs of brontes ( O.o good luck with a tank not able to see the orbs). Also NM DF would be ( at least for Bestia ) a no go: 3 Big adds who one shot a raid if not properly tanked. HF

Last night our guild spent a frustrating 3 hours on Draxxus in 16m Nightmare DF
Regarding your post i believe that was the first time you did draxus on NM? Honestly 3 hrs? I mean srsly? When i was on pts with my guild we wiped about 14hrs. Not to mention Brontes. We wiped there ( on pts + live ) more than 90 hrs. But you guys wiped 3 hrs and your raiders want to leave the game? Might sound harsh but srsly dont do nm then...

0:41 - the mobs appear on the screen for the 1st time for this player (over 30 seconds after the pull)
1:35 - our tank declares he can see the mobs now (they showed for him a few seconds before this), prior to this he was using AoE taunts and target of target to grab mobs
Pc perfomance problems as stated above. Get your pc perform better, do only 8m raids or get a new pc. Its NM, every player has to give at least 90-95% at those fight. One player perfoming 0 % for 30 seconds is hard to carry, even more if it is a tank.

would ask if it's possible to prioritize certain things loading before others, I run on lowest setting and it seems I have no trouble seeing all 16 people in the raid and every animation their character is doing, but can never see the enemies spawning until about 10s late, or sometimes not even through the entire fight (like Dash'roode), or negative mechanics that appear on the ground (like the red circles/puddles in Bestia). Even if they could have just a health bar, name plate, and the cycle target arrow appear before attempting to load the enemy it would make an amazing QoL improvement for the low end machine raiders.
Sounds like issues to Mainboard/memory/hard disk/cpu. Try swtor unleashed maybe it helps. Try defragmentation if you dont have a ssd. Try using registry cleaners. Try using /msconfig in windows execute and shut down programs you dont need. Try increasing / decreasing cachefilesize. There are a lot of guides that help you improve your perfomance especially for tor. If nothing helps maybe a new machine would be a great investment.

I and my guild really appreciate you all looking into this. I would suspect this is a much wider-spread problem then just our guild, folks have just learned to live with it.
I wouldnt suspect it being a wiede spread problem. I am playing on a 3 year old laptop w/o any of those problems. Even using my 7 year old 400$ laptop doesnt give me those problems ( just low fps but loading times infight are no problem ). Also suspecting that "folks just learned to live with it" is a suspection and is not right. Maybe a big number of players have this problem, but those ppl are not raiding NM not even HM beause of their low perfomance pc.

Sorry for my harsh words, but to be honest, NM shouldnt be cleared by everyone. Having ppl in your raid that need to be carried for a certain time bc of pc problems should make you wipe, otherwise it wouldnt be NM but another brainafk Nefra fight. There are numerous bossfight with adds ( Grob'Thok, Corruptor, Brontes, Bestia ) in the new and soon to come content. Even if you raid kills Draxus your Problems will continue and it wont get easier ( especially not for a tank). Raidmembers are thinking about quitting not because of the visual bug. Its easy to debug with a tank that can hold aggro. They are thinking about quitting bc you seem to have at least 1 raidmember that is causing wipes and is performing on a bad level bc of a bad pc perfomance. Nevertheless, if you want to kill Draxus your raidmembers have to perform good, because it is not as easy as trashmob nefra. Raidlead should make sure that everyone is able to perform at maximum performance, as should every raider him/herself. Not being able to see that pc problems hinders the rest of your raid and not trying to fix it but instead blame the engine of the game, is not the professional way. These low perfomance, engine sided rollbacks ( Intervene + force jump positioning bugs/rollbacks) persist for more than 2 years now, and never gonna be fixed bc it would require a new or at least a modified version of that engine which would then have other bugs.

slafko's Avatar

06.06.2014 , 03:14 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
There is no questioning that NM requires stable and good perfoming pcs.
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Sorry for my harsh words, but to be honest, NM shouldnt be cleared by everyone.
Yeah, only the people with highest performance machines.

You sound like NiM is something superhard when in reality it's only recycled content with some new mechanics and more bugs. If a game requires computing power instead of player skill to beat its mechanics and bugs, it's a sad game indeed.
I see their R2 droid and I grab it. No, you can't have it back, silly rabbit!

Methoxa's Avatar

06.06.2014 , 04:04 AM | #27
It requires both. And as i stated you dont need a super computer, but a decent pc perfomance. If you pc cant handle adds and shows those 10-30seconds later nm is nothing for you. But it also means that there is a conflict within your pc because actual pcs or pcs that are 3-4 years old should be easily capable of running the game.

NM DF is easy. But the bosses differ in difficulty.

Nefra : Easy as hell, can be compared to a sm 16 boss
Draxus : Mediocre, needs good management and tactics.
Grob'Thok : Easy, if tanks know what to do. Difficulty is also reliant on which ac your tanks are
Corruptor : Easy, if played in a not intentioned style ( all stack on boss), mediocre if played the intentioned way ( everyone spread, mines have to run to boss)
Brontes : Hard, even if you know perfectly what to do. Rng biased, bugs that troll you ( Tentacles spawn @100% @ last phase)

Without the NM bufff those bosses gonna be a lot easier, making DF basically how Fortress should be in Hardmode.

Even with those easy Bosses raids struggle to kill the bosses ( most wipe at draxus, bc Nefra is free loot). Draxus is where you see the difference between a mediocre raid and a casual raidgrp

If your skill level is high but your pc offers a bad perfomance ( i.e. 5fps in raid) your perfomance at fights will be bad. There is no questioning that. Even when you played 10 years in progression raids, with 5 fps your own perfomance will suck. So without a FAIR ( not high) pc perfomance you can perform according to NM content. If your skill level is low even the best pc in the world wouldnt make you perform better. The tank described by the op has Problem #1. His pc is underperforming ( lowest graphic settings, adds invisible for about 30 sec). So he prrobably can't perform at his maximum bc of the bad pc. PC problems differ ofc. Sometimes it is a fps drop for about 1-2 seconds which doesnt influence your own perfomance that much. But not being able to see adds for more than 30 seconds is in a too big influence in order to perform Nm raid in my eyes.

I didnt say that you need a high end pc, but at least a working system. I mean honestly, you can play tor on smarthphones nowadays. There is no excuse for a bad pc performance.

Prototypemind's Avatar

06.06.2014 , 04:29 AM | #28
The novella you've composed is great, but multiple accounts, complete with video evidence, show that in most cases the bugs mentioned have nothing to do with the PC falling short of what's necessary. There are many instances where repetitive bugs are occurring regardless of processor and GPU type, and being observed by all in the Op.

Methoxa's Avatar

06.06.2014 , 05:45 AM | #29
The bug the op describes is the cleave bug of the Guardians at Draxus. This bug occurs when the guardian is casting his cleave (at that point you see the frontal aoe indicator) and then another person gets aggro. The guardian will cast his cleave in the direction of his new target but the aoe indicator will not change. This has something to do with aggro. If the tank is not capable to hold the aggro then you might change something. Might be tactics or playstyle. But when i read the tank doesnt see the adds for about 30 secs its clear to me why it occurs. Mainly its a bug yes, but you can easily debug it yourself by improving your playstyle/tactics/pc performance. The earlier the tank sees the add the earlier he can build up aggro. Late spawns are not the only problem the op describes. He also says that this particular tank runs everything in low settings, meaning his fps might not be too good as well. This might have influence on his apm and therefore on his tps. Having tps issues in NM raids aren't good. Saw 10seconds of the video. I looked at a try where the videocreator attacked a guardian then ran to the adds under the shield of the bulwark while having aggro from the guardian. Not a great idea to pull the guardian where everyone has to stand and you can not be healed, but thats another point of discussion. The tank never should have lost aggro. The guardian casted ravage on the videocreator. Thats normal. But then the guardian should've jumped back to the tank, he didnt because the tank #1 didnt taunt what he should do while tanking the guardian #2 didnt build enough threat. #1 can be done while having low perfomance but is situational bc sometimes you dont have a taunt ready because you mistaunted something or bc of low experience in that particular bossfight. #2 Can not be done with low performance ( bad fps ) because the guardian moves away from you and depending on your system and your fps you might not even realise that meaning you will still spam your rotation but a funny message will appear at the upper center of the screen saying "You are to far away to do that". After the first ravage jump of the guardian there has to be a taunt. After that you shouldnt loose aggro except if your doing something wrong. And thats exactly the point that is wiping the op. Their Tank looses aggro after the 2. ravage jump which causes in most cases a dead person. But then the guardian is brought to the location where the group is most likely to move to by the videocreator. Which not only causes 1 dead person but a wipe. I presume the video showed more of those trys. Instead of crying for fixes and blaming the developers/the game/the bugs adapt to it. Ever thought about that this is intended? Because you can clearly see on bosses like Raptus that the frontal aoe indicator can move accordingly to whoever got aggro at that moment. Maybe the developers wanted to make it harder for you and didnt insert a ezmode raptus style aoe indicator thingie but a trollvariation of it?

Short version answer to Prototypemind : It is not the pc perfomance of those raidmembers who got hit by the cleave but the (pc) perfomance of the tank who looses the aggro from the guardian.

Prototypemind's Avatar

06.06.2014 , 08:57 PM | #30
Again, I'm stating that others are seeing this issue as well, not just the OP where the tank has a sub-par PC. There are also other issues popping up in other parts of the HM/NiM fights, so that's what I'm speaking to. It seems that what the OP's tank has going on may be exacerbating it, but there are problems that need to be fixed none-the-less, and I don't assume that you're arguing against that? For instance, the Bulwarks cannot be consistently backstabbed regardless of whether the attacker had attacked prior and pulled aggro or not. Backstab/Maul is lit up, indicating that it may be used and the person is behind the target, but it won't fire. That's a significant DPS loss there. Not a game breaker, but another example of the way the bugs pile up in the Hard/Nightmare Modes of these fights and cause issues.